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Verizon China Patents Technology

Huawei Asks Verizon To Pay Over $1 Billion For Over 230 Patents (reuters.com) 184

Posted by msmash from the good-luck dept.
hackingbear writes: Huawei has told Verizon that the U.S. carrier should pay licensing fees for more than 230 of the Chinese telecoms equipment maker's patents and in aggregate is seeking more than $1 billion, a person briefed on the matter said on Wednesday. Verizon should pay to "solve the patent licensing issue," a Huawei intellectual property licensing executive wrote in February, the Wall Street Journal reported earlier. The patents cover network equipment for more than 20 of the company's vendors including major U.S. tech firms but those vendors would indemnify Verizon, the person said. Some of those firms have been approached directly by Huawei, the person said. The patents in question range from core network equipment, wireline infrastructure to internet-of-things technology, the Journal reported. The licensing fees for the more than 230 patents sought is more than $1 billion, the person said. Huawei has been battling the U.S. government for more than a year. National security experts worry that "back doors" in routers, switches and other Huawei equipment could allow China to spy on U.S. communications. Huawei has denied that it would help China spy.
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Huawei Asks Verizon To Pay Over $1 Billion For Over 230 Patents More

Huawei Asks Verizon To Pay Over $1 Billion For Over 230 Patents

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  • Huawei becomes patent trolls (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    This is how Huawei is going to fight back?

    By becoming patent trolls?

    • Re:Huawei becomes patent trolls (Score:5, Funny)

      by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Thursday June 13, 2019 @01:00PM (#58756358)

      "This is how Huawei is going to fight back?

      By becoming patent trolls?"

      No. The US always complains that the Chinese don't respect intellectual property.

      This is how they show that they do.

      • This is how they show that they do.

        Sure, when it benefits them.

        Anything else remarkably unbriliant that you'd like to add??

    • This is how Huawei is going to fight back?

      It could just be that companies have stopped paying their licensing fees ever since the US government told them not to. And now that they're currently not being blacklisted, they're probably trying to get paid before that window closes again.

      By becoming patent trolls?

      Has the definition of patent trolls expanded? In my day, patent trolls were non-manufacturing entities created for the sole and only purpose of suing for patents.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DRJlaw ( 946416 )

      This is how Huawei is going to fight back?

      By becoming patent trolls?

      If they're becoming patent trolls, it's because the U.S. government is making them so via its blacklist. That is why you're seeing this crop up now.

      Huawei is going to need to make up revenue, and the impact of retaliatory patent suits is far less when you're already effectively subject to a blanket injunction (the blacklist) and can't be liable for damages for equipment that you're not selling.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by ebonum ( 830686 )

      This isn't so cut and dry. Huawei is in the telecom business. They have R&D centers in multiple countries and spend heavily on R&D. They use what comes out of R&D in their products. Broadcom, ARM, Nokia, Qualcomm are all doing the same thing (making billions on patents), and I don't think most people would define them as patent trolls.

      Bottom line, Huawei is spending about $15 billion (USD) a year on R&D. With enough energy, huge money and smart people, an R&D team is going to come up

    • State telecom agency is angry. Sues other state telecom agency.

      Eat popcorn.

      • Ivan has been living under a dictatorship so long, he can't even figure out what a state agency is.

        That just means, "the man," right??

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by hackingbear ( 988354 )

      This is how Huawei is going to fight back? By becoming patent trolls?

      Oh yeah when the Americans suing everyone from violating one of its millions of patents in the East Texas court, they were protecting intellectual properties. When the Chinese apply the same weapon, they were patent trolling. What else can we expect from hypocrites?

      • Re:Huawei becomes patent trolls (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 13, 2019 @01:46PM (#58756706)

        Oh yeah when the Americans suing everyone from violating one of its millions of patents in the East Texas court, they were protecting intellectual properties. When the Chinese apply the same weapon, they were patent trolling. What else can we expect from hypocrites?

        Exactly. Trump has basically said publicly that if he got a better trade deal they might lift the sanctions on Huawei ... if there's a real national security risk, he wouldn't be doing that.

        Likewise, when he said he'd interfere in the extradition of the Huawei exec from Canada if that got him a better trade deal ... if it's a real extradition request, he wouldn't be doing that either.

        Which means the US is politicizing things as bargaining chips.

        So, guess what? It would appear the Chinese are now doing the same thing.

        Trump started the trade war, and is clearly willing to use anything to get leverage. China has decided to respond in kind, which is scary, because the Chinese government doesn't give a fuck about niceties.

        • Trump started the trade war, and is clearly willing to use anything to get leverage. China has decided to respond in kind, which is scary, because the Chinese government doesn't give a fuck about niceties.

          If you think that China hasn't been having a field day with their trade war with the US for the past 30 years you aren't being honest. There's no way you could have missed that fact. If you've been following at all, even a little, you'd know that they steal IP on an industrial scale. Copy with no shame. Contribute nothing in return. Trump is the first person to really call them on that. Despite his numerous faults he really has done more for America by challenging China then his predecessors.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          if there's a real national security risk, he wouldn't be doing that

          It's hard to say really.

          Huawei as a national security risk has been expressed long before Trump and the trade situation. Just the government did not feel inclined to intervene beyond banning it on their own facilities. I suspect those making those claims have long calling for them being on the entity list, but the rest of the government was not inclined to do that (between a probable lack of evidence that could be disclosed and trying not to piss off a trade partner).

          Suddenly with the trade war and the pr

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by jezwel ( 2451108 )

            if there's a real national security risk, he wouldn't be doing that

            It's hard to say really.

            No, it's quite clear.

            If a better trade deal affects the decision as to whether something is a security risk or not, it's not a real security risk.

            • if there's a real national security risk, he wouldn't be doing that

              It's hard to say really.

              No, it's quite clear.

              No, you're wrong.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Junta ( 36770 )

              While that may be the case ideally, it's not so cut and dry.

              One is if there is a real security risk, but there's difficulty *proving* it and that uncertainty being weighed against the negative consequences.

              For that matter, even if it a national security risk, the negative consequences economically and Huawei customers potentially lobbying for the sake of the aggressive competition driving their costs down still may have have been viewed as being bigger problem than the risk.

              There's also the chance that the

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward


        Oh yeah when the Americans suing everyone from violating one of its millions of patents in the East Texas court, they were protecting intellectual properties. When the Chinese apply the same weapon, they were patent trolling.
        Wait, what? On Slashdot... you're claiming that people here would, or did, or.... should? support patent trolls suing in East Texas?

        Slashdot is consistent on just about nothing. There's crazy anti-vaxxers. There's climate change deniers. There's people who love nuclear power, ther

      • This is how Huawei is going to fight back? By becoming patent trolls?

        Oh yeah when the Americans suing everyone from violating one of its millions of patents in the East Texas court, they were protecting intellectual properties. When the Chinese apply the same weapon, they were patent trolling. What else can we expect from hypocrites?

        a) What was right about any of those other idiot companies doing it in the first place?
        b) Honestly curious, what patents have Huawei legitimately come up with on their own? If it is anything like the other patent trolls, they couldn't figure out how to actually produce the thing they patented and waited for someone to figure out how to produce it so they could sue them...

        • That logic seems poor. You ask what ideas Huawei ever came up with. but having 230 patents sort of answers that question. Probably at least 230 things that were worth granting a patent for. Your own incredulity isn't evidence of anything except the fact that you choose not to find out. That would be called confirmation bias in the face of clear evidence that the sentiment you're expressing is clearly wrong.

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Which hypocrites are you talking about, the Chinese ones who stole everybody's IP for the past 40 years and now demand patent protection for their inventions that were only possible through the previous IP thefts? THOSE hypocrites?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      This is how Huawei is going to fight back? By becoming patent trolls?

      Awwh, the American Way.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Are the patents invalid? No? Then pay up, fuckers!

      The US is basically having its own crap fed to it now. A nice spectacle to observe.

      • Are the patents invalid? No? Then pay up, fuckers!

        Even if they win, it isn't allowed for Americans to pay them any money.

  • I didn't know Verizon produced anything physical of value.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      Huawei is going after them for patents that their hardware suppliers are alleged to infringe. And yes, before anyone asks: They can legally do that. It's not common, but it does happen. Usually the supplier agreements (especially when dealing with a company the size of Verizon) have protections in them that would pass the financial responsibility of a judgement back to the supplier.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DRJlaw ( 946416 )

      I didn't know Verizon produced anything physical of value.

      You can infringe a patent if you make, use, offer to sell, sell, or import [cornell.edu] something covered by a patent, as well as (sometimes) products made by a patented process.

      Verizon certainly uses a decent amount of equipment, and not necessarily just the stuff on a cell phone tower (like FIOS and those services).

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday June 13, 2019 @12:58PM (#58756338)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:The irony (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 13, 2019 @01:12PM (#58756442)

      Huawei steals property all the time and now wants to accuse another company of stealing? This is next level patent trolling.

      You know, as America is pushing to have patents and IP laws basically supersede the laws of countries, if they hold valid patents then this isn't trolling ... it's hilarious, but it would mean the USPTO has issued patents which now undermine the entirety of networking. The USPTO doesn't care, and probably doesn't even understand half of the patents they grant.

      This sounds like the West being hoisted by their own petards in terms of suddenly discovering a foreign company owns everything.

      Sure, it's a shake down, but is it any different from when a US company demands money? I would say no.

      The US weaponized patents, and it sounds like it's starting to sting a little. This sounds like the US is being beaten at their own game by someone who is playing by the rules.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The very real threat of foreign spying tools being baked in to our electronics is only now starting to dawn upon our leaders (including our industry leaders).

      Previously, profit and cost cutting were sufficient motives to outsource and import most of our tech. The people making such decisions, back then, didn't really understand the tech. They had just inherited a technological empire that they didn't build nor grow up in. But they sure did understand accounting!

      But now, a more enlightened (and cynical, b

      • If there are backdoors in American gear already then what are the odds China's cybersecurity people don't already know about them? Who makes the gear almost makes no difference. If Huawei backdoored their own gear then the USA could also use those backdoors to spy on China, think about that.

    • How can you not "steal" intellectual property there are 600,000 patents filed each year in the US, and 1,300,000 filed in China. [csis.org] You are probably violating some patient by just living.

    • Wow, calling somebody create a "functional equivalent" implementation of STRCMP [cisco.com] "stealing" and suing them for IP infringement? That's real irony.

      From a section entitled Comparison of Cisco STRCMP and Huawei’s [CODE NAME REDACTED]: “It must be concluded that Huawei misappropriated this code.

      From a section entitled Functionality: “Because of the many functional choices available to the Huawei developers (including three of their own routines), the fact that they made the same functional choice as Cisco would suggest access to the Cisco code even if the routines had implementation differences.”

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Reminds me of that time SCO claimed to own Linux. Wasn't that some header file bullshit too?

      • Do not snip your quote:

        âoeThe exactness of the comments and spacing not only indicate that Huawei has access to the Cisco code but that the Cisco code was electronically copied and inserted into [Huaweiâ(TM)s]â

        • The exactness of the comments and spacing not only indicate that Huawei has access to the Cisco code but that the Cisco code was electronically copied and inserted into Huawei.

          If it's STRCMP, it's likely that they both copied the code from a common source.

    • Nah this is just Huawei trying to be more American to appease Trump who complains they are too close to the Chinese government. They are just trying to be more East District of Texas and act like every American company, WITH A COMPUTER!

  • /. again edits away crucial pieces in hackingbear's writing:

    Companies involved, including Verizon have notified the U.S. government and the dispute comes amid a growing feud between China and the United States. “These issues are larger than just Verizon. Given the broader geopolitical context, any issue involving Huawei has implications for our entire industry and also raise national and international concerns,” said Verizon spokesman Rich You in an attempting to evade the IP payments.

    These are words from original article and the Verizon spokesperson.

  • Freedom from spying (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    How ironic that American nationalists accuse Chinese nationalists of spying - after the NSA has been repeated ly outed on spying on everyone around the globe. It's ok for Americans to shamelessly spy on everyone else but for others to spy on Americans... well that's a human rights violation.

    Alleged "do no evil" Google... just shut the door on Huawei on at the request of their nationalist government and no doubt spys on behalf of the US government when quietly served National Security letters. And it isn't

  • With all revenues going to the country that created the idea, which wouldn't be China.

    • That seems like a baseless assertion. Articles have been linked showing that China process about twice the patent applications per year as the USA. They're one of the top 3 nations for completed patents.

      • Which is not really that unexpected. China does have 4 times as many people and an economy growing fast. Assuming China can't invent anything with all the resources they throw at it just seems like a racist sentiment that's divorced from obvious reality. Are American schools *really* churning out super-geniuses all the f-ing time? No. American schools suck.

  • Indemnification is a common contractual clause (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Indemnification is a common contractual clause in all telecom agreements.
    I've never worked for Verizon, but the other 2 huge telecoms where I've worked, it was part of EVERY SINGLE contract for software and equipment.

    Verizon will tell them to go pound sand. Go hit ericson and telcordia if they want money. Or not, but just go away.

    Verizon isn't the minor leagues. They have solid contracts.

    • I'm not a lawyer but your claim cannot even pass the smoke test. The contracts with indemnification you talk about are between the downstream user (e.g. Verizon) and the upstream vendors. That basically says the vendors will pay whatever patent and copyright fees necessary for the products/services the user purchased and if the user get sued and lost the vendor will pay back whatever fees the user is fined for. So Verizon can indeed go ahead to ask (or more likely sue) their vendors in case Huawei win the l

  • National security experts worry that "back doors" in routers, switches and other Huawei equipment could allow China to spy on U.S. communications.

    We know what some of them say about Huawei, but we don't know what they really worry about. Maybe they worry that their employers are going to be left out of the 5G market. Maybe they worry that they won't get invited to panels and talk shows to share their opinions.

    Oh, and that's assuming for the sake of argument that it's really "national security experts" expressing the worry and not political hacks.

    • Yeah. Why couldn't backdoors in *Cisco* equipment also allow China to spy on U.S. communications. I'd think China would prefer that too. If they shipped backdoored Huawei gear that's a smoking gun right there, whereas exploiting vulnerabilities in other people's gear is more deniable.

      There's also another issue. China uses Huawei gear. China is secretive. They wouldn't want insecure gear used in *their own* networks, and if there were mechanisms for Huawei gear to be remotely accessed / backdoored by China,

  • Or is this just another scam by their evil communist government?

    • The west stole from China for hundreds of years, things like gun powder. They were the titan while we were pigmies.

      • Gun powder was hundreds of years old by the time Europeans started using it, I don't think the patent was still enforceable.

  • Probably that somebody is lacking the intellectual capacity and the knowledge to do so in the first place. That is what happens when you basically do global trade policy with the level of understanding of a redneck or a used-car salesman. It badly backfires, but it takes a while to do so.

    • Probably that somebody is lacking the intellectual capacity and the knowledge to do so in the first place. That is what happens when you basically do global trade policy with the level of understanding of a redneck or a used-car salesman. It badly backfires, but it takes a while to do so.

      Don't be so hard on Obama, he was a noob clearly in over his head, especially with regard to foreign policy. Now Bush the first should have known better. I expected more from Bush the second, especially after Chinese recklessness downed a plane ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ) but no, he didn't have a spine either. Clinton was easy to buy. So it fell to Trump to actually do something. After millions of jobs were lost but better late than never. Keep in mind that if the trend continues and the US

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        You fit right in there with the stupid. Congratulations. Because before the authoritarian leader you so mindlessly follow, things still worked to some degree.

        • No, dumb ass, liberals are sick of China's shit too, and when the orange lizard man is gone, we're still going to be in a Cold War with China.

          Get used to it.

        • You fit right in there with the stupid. Congratulations. Because before the authoritarian leader you so mindlessly follow, things still worked to some degree.

          Worked to some degree. That's an odd thing to strive for. The US has been broken since the 70s, with the seeds sown in the 60s. This isn't merely my opinion, just look at quality of life indicators. They had been going up since the WW2 but in the 70s it stagnated and the decline of the middle class began. It's been declining my whole life but I'm bright enough to know a trend when I see one and I also am well read enough to know that it wasn't always this way. But yes, keep calling me names. That wil

      • It's kind of normal that the US signal plane was downed while probably spying on China. It was right off their coast, after all. Don't want your spy planes downed? Don't go over to that nation and be spying and stuff.

        • The point is, you're calling a nation reckless for downing a "US signals intelligence aircraft" that just happened to be "minding it's own business" flying right near that other nation. Funny that. China isn't allowed to fly planes around China is it, because they might hit an American spy plane?

        • It's kind of normal that the US signal plane was downed while probably spying on China. It was right off their coast, after all. Don't want your spy planes downed? Don't go over to that nation and be spying and stuff.

          You may be familiar with the notion of international borders. If you're outside those, over international waters like this plane was for example, then getting attacked is aggression and could be considered an act of war. The notion of don't go near borders is absurd. A better policy is don't attack people, or carelessly ram as the case may be, in international waters.

  • Qualcomm requires royalties but often from the hardware oemâ(TM)s that extend to their customers such as telecom operators. Huawei assertiveness seems similar to Qualcomm. Guessing some companies thought they could sneak by with Huawei and chose over Qualcomm. Will be interesting to see the deliberations. Huawei probably held back to not bite hand that feeds it but since now essentially banned no need to be nice.

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