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Ask Slashdot: Is the Information Asymmetry Between Producers and Consumers Good? 183

dryriver asks a philosophical question: The producer of a tech product -- thanks to internet data mining -- may know all sorts of things about me, the buyer of a product. Gender, age, income level, education level, profession, geolocation, what I read online, who my social media friends are, what interests me intellectually, which way I swing politically, and more. For a few dollars spent, I am no "mystery" to the producer of this tech product.

But if I were to ask the producer of the product simple questions like "How much did the GPU component in this laptop you are selling me cost you?" or "What portion of the final asking price of this product is profit that goes to you?" I likely wouldn't get an answer. Information asymmetry is at play now -- the producing party in the buying transaction knows far, far more about me than I can possibly know about the producing party. And unlike the producing party, I cannot simply open my wallet and purchase "data mined information" about the producing party. Company secrets are company secrets. The "info buying" works in one direction only.

Is it a good thing for consumers that this "information asymmetry" exists in the first place? That pretty much any tech producer can learn about me with a few bucks spent, but I cannot get simple information like "How much did the Nvidia 1060 Mobile GPU in this 1,200 Dollar notebook cost the producer"?

Anyone have an answer? Leave your own thoughts in the comments. Is this information asymmetry between producers and consumers good?
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Ask Slashdot: Is the Information Asymmetry Between Producers and Consumers Good?

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  • by HotNeedleOfInquiry ( 598897 ) on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:44PM (#58544018)
    Can the manufacturer reciprocate and ask you how much you earn, how much you spend on tech toys and how much for food?
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:52PM (#58544054)

      Can the manufacturer reciprocate and ask you how much you earn, how much you spend on tech toys and how much for food?

      The entire point is that they already know all that.

    • by vlad30 ( 44644 )

      Can the manufacturer reciprocate and ask you how much you earn, how much you spend on tech toys and how much for food?

      They often do so they can refine who to sell to next. something as little as which postcode you live in, will tel them quite a bit about you or at least the averages for those around you. Think about that next time you fill in the warranty card

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The correct answer is: "No, it's not. Next question."

      Capitalism relies on equal bargaining power between all parties of a transaction to work correctly and efficiently. An imbalance in bargaining power, like Information Asymmetry of any kind, violates this requirement and leads to inefficiency and sows distrust in the entire system.

      Ever hear of "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." ? The entire purpose of that quote is to show what happens when you

    • I may not answer, but they sure as heck as me those questions, and they'll use data mining tactics to get the answers even when I don't want to give them. If all else fails they'll by "anonymous" data from my credit card company.

      Subby is asking the wrong question, probably out of a desire to avoid loading it when it so obviously should be loaded. The question isn't, is this good? It's "Can our economic system survive the extreme imbalance of information we have today without increased government regulat
    • Can the manufacturer reciprocate and ask you how much you earn, how much you spend on tech toys and how much for food?

      No, but the retailer can. Just not from you directly, but from a data broker. That's the whole point.

    • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @08:50AM (#58545544)

      With big data collection we get a an incomplete picture of the user. About 5 years ago, I was looking for a replacement worm gear to fix my garage door opener. For the next year, my web advertisements were showing me advertisements for worm gears as if I was some sort of worm gear aficionado. Also it seems that big data has my politics wrong as well. It isn't an all knowing technology, gust a statistical analysis of what you most likely are.
      Now for the seller, I can know a lot of real detail information about them, how long they have been in business, if they are publicly traded I can read their quarterly financial report, what they sell, I can also find other customers and see what they think about the product.

      The question how much does it cost to make your product is just a stupid question for the consumer. If you have 2 Cpu's at the same cost, what does it matter to you, that one CPU cost the company 50% in parts to make the CPU, while the other CPU cost the other company 20% in parts to make the CPU. This often just means once company has a bigger supply chain, or perhaps the engineers just knew of more affordable parts that had no effect. Or a cheaper material actually worked better.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Just check out the submissions from this person. Truly idiotic.

  • by talos767 ( 5928738 ) on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:49PM (#58544046)
    I couldn't use a lot of that type of information...why should I care about the internals of a corporation or a product, so long as I ultimately get the product at a reasonable price? Why do I need to know how much the GPU in my laptop cost, when all I'm buying is the whole laptop? Not saying it's great that corporations know everything about me, but I don't think me learning everything about them would fix anything.
    • by war4peace ( 1628283 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:33AM (#58544828)

      Let me give you a real world example.
      You used to buy products from company A (which is an IT&C online store). At some point they fucked you in one way or another, say warranty shenanigans, defective products that they refused warranty on for whatever reason, delivery delays, you name it. They pissed you off and you decided to no longer buy from company A and buy from their competition, let's call it Company B.

      Unbeknownst to you, Company A and Company B have the same parent, say Company X. Oopsie, you still bring profit to the wrong entity.

      You have to actively dig for this kind of information, and many times it's so deeply buried that it's very hard to find.

      Pop quiz: what do Epic Games, Riot Games, Supercell, Miniclip, Grinding Gear Games and MORE have in common, besides being game development companies? They're all subsidiaries of Tencent, notorious for copying competition's games.

      Getting the product at a reasonable price is not everything. There's service quality, price/performance indicator, there's also company ethics if you care about it. In other words, would you eat fruit from a tree grown on top of a common grave?

      • This is a reasonable point; I oversimplified earlier.

        Ideally, I would think there would be some kind of happy medium between knowing literally everything about a corporation and corporations being black boxes. I don't know where exactly that would fall or how it would be implemented (which is why this whole situation is problematic)--all my original point was is that radical transparency on the part of corporations probably wouldn't help too much. Information overload doesn't help me make purchasing decisio

        • I'd rather have too much information than not enough. If I have too much information I can filter it down to what I need. If I don't have enough, well... I can't "unfilter" the missing pieces.

  • The "information asymmetry" that should be discussed and then outlawed is the misinformation and misframing broadcast to customers and the knowledge deliberately withheld for the producers' own selfish gain.

    One minuscule example: the Clorox Company trying to convince customers through misleading advertising that not all 5% solutions of sodium hypochlorite are the same, that theirs is somehow more effective.

    • Or that Monsanto's patented glyphosate may cause cancer.

  • However, for producers, of course it is. Next question?

  • You give the obvious answer.

    But in absolute terms I'm for anything that removes the advantage. We are not demanding enough transparency, especially from the government.

    So, whistleblowers unite!

  • That pretty much any tech producer can learn about me with a few bucks spent, but I cannot get simple information like "How much did the Nvidia 1060 Mobile GPU in this 1,200 Dollar notebook cost the producer"?

    "I'm not going to tell you how much it cost."
    "Ok, then I'm going to buy my notebook from someone who will."

    • And if nobody will?

    • As with everything in life your choices are lost amongst those of a world of lemmings. Only those choices matter.

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      When was the last time you bought something from someone who knew how much it cost to make? Among other things. Actually, how much it cost to make is generally among the least valuable pieces of information. Durability, repairability, parts list, etc. are much more valuable, and those aren't available either. Warranties are generally designed to be so difficult to use that they're worthless except as PR. And are often ignored when people try to enforce them. (Well, not exactly. Turn this in at our se

  • walk into brick and mortar store

    pay cash and don't use your loyalty/discount card

  • All corporations must file reports withe the SEC where you can learn quite a bit about the producer and their business. Its a public record free. If you want info about products search the web for teardowns, reviews, hacks. Buy the product and take it apart. Contact suppliers of the parts and ask for pricing vs quantity. You can estimate the costs. If you really want to know you can find out or get close to the truth. Thats what competative analysis is all about and most businesses do it.
    • Publicly traded companies do but if, for example, the laptop in the article was a Dell then there's no reporting requirement on them since it's pivately held.

  • by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Sunday May 05, 2019 @10:35PM (#58544164) Journal

    How does it really change your situation if you know what the true production costs are for a product? You might know for a fact that component cost of a $1000 phone is $75. If the phone still works great and does everything consumers desire in a phone though? They'll pay the $1000 anyway, because they don't have the knowledge, ability or time to assemble one for themselves.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Of greater importance is knowing how durable and repairable a product is, and for that teardown sites like iFixIt are invaluable. Has Apple fixed the screen cable this year? Is that foldable screen going to last more than a few weeks?

  • Not sure why the Slashdot editor seems to taking so many of these philosophical topics lately, but...

    Better start by reviewing the question: "Is the Information Asymmetry Between Producers and Consumers Good?"

    The obvious (Subject: "Only when their interests are aligned") answer (per game theory) is that it depends on what sort of game is being played. If their interests are aligned in a win-win scenario, then it should basically be fine, even if there's a bit of squabbling about the division of the spoils. However what we usual have these days are win-lose or zero-sum scenarios where one player wins and all of the other players lose. Best example: Facebook "wins" and everyone else loses.

    It has to do with how the rules of the game are written, and right now most of the rules are being written and rewritten by the most cheaply bribed politicians. They think they are working for rich donors, and the donors think they are acting for their personal profit. In reality, the punchline is that the corporate cancers own the donors and provide the funds for the political bribes, too.

    The information asymmetries are inevitable. Kind of silly to worry if they are "good" or "bad" without considering the contexts and results. A problem without a solution is not really a problem, but just part of reality that must be endured.

  • "What portion of the final asking price of this product is profit that goes to you?" I likely wouldn't get an answer."

    For a good goddamn reason... They'd have f**kin' comedians such as yourself calling and badgering them for every little detail.

    Stick with comedy dryriver, you might know more about that than production - or philosophy apparently.

  • Buy or have reason to have the latest McMaster Carr catalogue. Or just go to: https://www.mcmaster.com/ [mcmaster.com]
    There are sliding scales for quantities for components and you **could** figure out how much the wholesale cost of every part would be. Many people in America would call what you are asking for as some form of socialism which is associated for some reason to Communism.
    Notwithstanding the foregoing, you should roughly be able to quantify costs (other than custom components), but that will never be the tru

  • by koavf ( 1099649 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @12:49AM (#58544566) Homepage
    But definitely not the public at large. Everyone is a consumer and not everyone is a producer, so the things that help consumers are generally for the common good. If the public has more education and information about what they are buying and how it was made, then it will increase the safety, wealth, and well-being of everyone at large. Information asymmetry in favor of business only helps a small amount of capitalists.
  • You going to have to pay for that as an extra data set.
    Chart out every GPU supported by a generation of OS you want to support.
    How many of that GPU range got sold with all features? As a mobile GPU? Desktop? CPU use only? Something that got put in the slow bin in the GPU factory?
    Then consider how many brands that make a "laptop" have to stuff "software" on their laptop to try and make a profit?
    The conditions the GPU maker puts on GPU use? The power use of a GPU and its support in a laptop?
    Loss lead
  • by TentativeFate ( 2588155 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @01:28AM (#58544690)

    The "consumer surplus" is the difference between what the product is worth to you, the consumer, and its price. The "producer surplus" is the difference between the price and what the product costs to make. The "social surplus" is the sum of the two (plus externalities), and that's what society gains by having the transaction.

    The better the producer matches the price to each consumer's value, the larger portion of the social surplus goes to the producer. The price tag, which fixes the same price for all consumers, was one of the biggest gifts of Quakers to humanity (second only, perhaps, to oat-based cereals), and tech giants are taking us 150 years back on that front.

    And that's why capitalists who think they like the status quo, which isn't capitalism at all, are morons.

  • by ET3D ( 1169851 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:30AM (#58544822)

    You know where the company is located, you know who heads it. You know their age, where they live, who they're married to, probably how much they make, their entire occupational history. You know a lot of people who work at the company (for example via a LinkedIn search). You know what products they make and the specs of these products. You might even find a YouTube video showing a factory tour. There's no shortage of information that you can find about any company.

    In short, you know a lot more of the company than the company knows of you.

    • by epine ( 68316 )

      You know where the company is located, you know who heads it. You know their age, where they live, who they're married to, probably how much they make, their entire occupational history.

      Nice illustration of the difference between data and knowledge.

      Knowing your counterparty in a meaningful way means getting yours arms around their principle ventures and commitments. The average person might have five or so major ventures spread across work, family, hobby, community, church (or non-church). The tech titans e

  • For example i neither want nor need to know what's in the sausage,

  • In another transaction, in the UK, you can purchase uninsured loss recovery insurance for 10GBP. The actual cost is 1.75 GBP. Most purchasers do not care. The same is true for things like travel insurance (again in the UK). It doesn't have to be about technology. Those who do care, and who know, have the option to purchase elsewhere. That is the whole point of levelling an uneven playing field by making that information available.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday May 06, 2019 @07:13AM (#58545304)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • It's kind of the wrong question.

    Is it inevitable? Yes.

    Is it new? No.

    I'm wondering what you think the alternative is. We all become experts on every product and service that we buy? Not going to happen.

    Keep in mind that not even producers have - or can have - all the information that they want. (See the famous example of how nobody knows what a pencil should cost.)

  • Meet Robert. Robert is a moron. He is of average intelligence but has never been interested in anything other than cars, sports, and superficial girls with large breasts. He barely made it through school, is still working in the first job he ever got, one that barely pays over minimum wage. In his free time, Robert mostly watches comedy and music videos and conspiracy theory videos on the internet. Robert has no goals in life, no ambition, and owes money on every single credit card he owns.

    Meet Patricia.

  • what has the tech industry kept from the end users for their profit at the expense of the end users and how Karma is now in play regarding a lack of diversity in eth subfield of tech, Artificial Intelligence http://3seas.org/EAD-RFI-respo... [3seas.org]

  • If Vendor A sells a phone for $300 that costs $50 to produce, and Vendor B sells a phone for $500 that costs $60 to produce, which phone should you buy? You should probably buy the one which fits your needs best, insofar as you can afford it, so the cost of production isn't really relevant to you. Production cost might be considered a proxy for quality, insofar as vendors use comparable production systems, but evaluating that is an entirely different question, and if you are capable of evaluating that you

  • https://xkcd.com/309/ [xkcd.com]

    Surprised this didn't show up earlier.

  • I'm going to incorporate myself and then sue businesses for violating my trade secrets and intellectual property rights.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • This must be one of the weirdest open mikes in the entire history of Slashdot, right up there with whether binary distributions have ruined the Internet.

    No wait, my bad—that's actually the same discussion, in different drag.

  • I first read the title and immediately thought, "Of course information assymetry is bad." I'm a big fan of nutritional and content labels. I thought the ACA should have constructed a set of "standard" policies, and then force insurers to advertised based on their divergence from the standards.

    Then I read the question and thought, "Is this guy for real, or is he just TRYING to be stupid?".

    First of all, if you want to know how much the components cost, there is publicly available price list. Every time I r

  • Information asymmetry is an interesting point but the examples of profit margins are not relevant, imho. Unless we are talking about basic necessities like energy, water and housing, I'm not sure I need to know the rest - since most goods obey the rules of supply and demand, rather than a simple formula. GPU prices jumped when lots of people wanted them for mining. I then decide whether the new price is what I should pay. If enough people think the price is high, it drops. That is how a market works!
  • Information asymmetry has always existed. I don't think the internet has made it worse; what it has done is increased the amount of information available to both sides, but the big player had the advantage pre-internet and it has it now.

    Asymmetry leads to inefficient markets, and ones that poorly serve the needs of the low-information side. Health care is a blatant example, where the buyers know almost nothing about the actual costs of the services they use or the relative quality of different providers. (T

I have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning. -- Plato

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