China Bans 23 Million From Buying Travel Tickets as Part of 'Social Credit' System (theguardian.com) 350
China blocked 23 million "discredited" travelers from buying plane or train tickets last year as part of the country's controversial "social credit" system aimed at improving the behavior of citizens. From a report: According to the National Public Credit Information Centre's 2018 report, 17.5 million people were banned from buying flights and 5.5 million barred from purchasing high-speed train tickets because of social credit offences. The report released last week said: "Once discredited, limited everywhere." The social credit system aims to incentivize "trustworthy" behavior through penalties as well as rewards. According to a government document about the system dating from 2014, the aim is to "allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step." Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.
Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid' (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Once a 'bad kid', always a 'bad kid' (Score:5, Insightful)
Great point (Score:4, Insightful)
Also a good way to convince the bad ones that they might as well *really* be bad because, heck, they've got nothing to lose.
I wonder about this also; if you are in a deep enough hole you may as well keep digging and see if you can reach the other side.
It cannot be good fo society as a whole to bottle up people's movements like this, forcing someone to stay in an area and get angrier and angrier about it... sounds like a really bad idea.
In a way we should all thank the Chinese for going so flat-out on this idea, because a lot of governments are agitating to do similar things but if the Chinese system runs into major issues it will prevent other governments from trying. On the other hand if they iron out the problems by force, and the system appears to work - it could be more likely to spread. :-(
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As pointed out in 1984, the proles can start unrest, but they do not create revolutions, although other groups can take advantage of unrest to make try to start a revolution.
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That's what this bullshit sounds like: a bad parent, who never forgets anything bad their kid did, continually reminds them, and always suspects them before anyone else when something bad happens, always believes the so-called 'good kid'. 'Guilty until proven innocent'. You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.
I'm a strong believer in that people live up to their expectations too. If you tell a kid he will never be up to any good... guess what- he won't. People tend to fill the expectations and moulds that other people provide for them.
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You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.
If they killed them, they wouldn't have a constant and visible reminder for everyone else to stay in line.
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You may as well just kill these people, it would be less cruel.
If they killed them, they wouldn't have a constant and visible reminder for everyone else to stay in line.
I almost hesitate to suggest this in case someone in Chinese government is reading Slashdot... but...
You could always line the roads in and out of major cities with crucified criminals, rebels, and runaway slaves like the Romans did.
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I'm sure you could find A Modest Proposal if you looked around.
Discredited (Score:5, Insightful)
"allow the trustworthy to roam everywhere under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step."
Discredited here includes voicing an opinion against the prevailing totalitarian regime or someone in power. Can you say dystopian.
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The big problem I'm seeing here is that it digs people into a hole. If a person is def
Re:Discredited (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.
Do not defend any of this. It is totalitarian.
I find it ironic one of the complaints of communism is that the elite buy off the bourgeoisie (the middle class) by giving them access to the trappings of the elite, like loans and checking accounts. And here is a communist regime starting to do the exact same thing their core philosophy rails against as an abuse by the elites.
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Last month they were canceling the registration of Marxist student groups who pointed out the same things, so things might get "interesting" with that crowd.
That said, their system isn't based on Communism it is just a Confucian autocratic dictatorship that uses the colors and symbols of communism. It is actually just a traditional system for understanding Merit and deciding who has the most Merit to lead based on who shows the most success at taking control of the levers of power. There is deep-seated nati
Re: Discredited (Score:2)
Do not defend any of this.
Nobody but a gov't shill ever would.
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America has never claimed to be a democracy. Always a republic.
On the other hand China is much more of a totalitarian state.
No freedom of speech.
Pretend freedom of religion, that is something more like freedom of declared creed, so long is you are ok with punishment for your declaration.
No freedom of expression, No freedom to choose your own career or life.
Can someone from China Please explain why the communist have been allowed to stay it power so long.
( is it simply that they are very efficient and killin
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4. Political inertia: the majority alive today in China have little/no experience of a working democratic republic. They are used to a totalitarian dictatorship. One doesn't miss what one's never had (and what the de facto gov't there makes sure one knows little about).
China has also basically been an imperial or totalitarian state for thousands of years. One shouldn't underestimate that level of ingraining acceptance of that government style in the culture.
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Re:Discredited (Score:4, Insightful)
So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian.
Those are still rather dystopian things, you've just been conditioned not to see them as such.
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Re:Discredited (Score:5, Informative)
Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that. So far the only thing that dings your score is criminal charges, traffic violations, and defaulting on loans. So it's like a cross between a criminal record and a credit score. Not very dystopian. .
That's not true.
Simply being friends with someone with a low civic score on social media DOES give you a lower civic score. Time spent playing video games (at least when connected to servers that they can monitor) DOES lower your civic score. Having comments censored DOES lower your civic score.
It IS very dystopian and they ARE abusing the system already.
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I think you lack imagination. Big trees grow from small seeds.
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Everybody keeps throwing around all of these ways that China could abuse this system, like discrediting based on social media post or publishing dissenting material. Thing is, they haven't implemented anything like that.
This isn't some theory people are throwing around, it is literally what they say their plan is, and it is part of what they say they're already doing.
There is very little speculation that they'll do some horrible thing, the speculation is that they'll do exactly what they said they'll do.
What a maroon.
Re:Discredited (Score:5, Interesting)
No 1989 Tiananmen Square protests links.
Don't talk about term limits.
No saying Taiwan is the real China.
No to books like Brave New World, 1984 and Animal Farm.
Dont go looking for quality anime & manga.
Once seen and reported a person stays on the no travel, no education list.
As the points go lower, more is restricted.
America has a similar system ... (Score:5, Insightful)
... people who break the law or don't pay dept are low value and, depending, denied employment, guns, voting rights, incarcerated, evicted, fined, denied credit, denied loans ...
The approach is certainly newsworthy but the outcome is similar.
Re:America has a similar system ... (Score:4, Interesting)
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No fly list...
Re:America has a similar system ... (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sorry but please explain how any of those stops someone from getting on a train, bus, boat, or airplane in America?
If you get listed in China's social score system, you can still use (regular) train, bus, and boat; you cannot travel by airplane or high-speed train, so the article title exaggerates the situation. Such practice is not unique to mainland China; in Hongkong, long before the hand-over, a bankrupted person cannot take taxi for example. In China, there's no such thing as personal bankruptcy [chinalawblog.com] and things like jaywalking, evading debt, etc. are rampant. While their social credit system may be abused, so is the US legal system, e.g. ones who use drug are jailed for long time, whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains.
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While their social credit system may be abused, so is the US legal system, e.g. ones who use drug are jailed for long time, whereas the drug users in China may just be banned from flying airplanes and taking high-speed trains.
You're conflating drug users with drug dealers. The U.S. generally doesn't imprison people at all for possessing recreational quantities of drugs, much less for a "long time."
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You're conflating drug users with drug dealers. The U.S. generally doesn't imprison people at all for possessing recreational quantities of drugs, much less for a "long time."
That's incredibly ignorant.
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That's incredibly ignorant.
Et tu, my friend. "Everybody knows" doesn't count here.
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There's no need for one-to-one equivalency. For instance, China doesn't care for our batshit crazy gun worshiping, so use that as a substitute, OK?
China can't make us be like them, and it works both ways.
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... people who break the law or don't pay dept are low value and, depending, denied employment, guns, voting rights, incarcerated, evicted, fined, denied credit, denied loans ...
So people who don't pay debt have trouble getting more credit. Shocking, that. The fact that some employers have the temerity to decide not to take on risk by hiring convicted felons into positions of responsibility is even more outrageous.
Weeding out all those silly instances, you're left suggesting that not being able to vote and buy guns because you're a convicted felon is on some level of moral equivalence with not being able to pull cash out of your pocket and buy a travel ticket because someone ove
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... because someone overheard you ...
You're going to have to read the article and try that again.
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You're going to have to read the article
Did that, actually. Not much more to it than is pasted in the summary. Feel free to share your point if you have one.
Re:America has a similar system ... (Score:4, Insightful)
That system is being built currently in the US. It just is private and not government. Everywhere you go people who care to check will see you supported this or that candidate, for the purpose of social ostracism.
You still have the private ballot. You just can't talk about it on the greatest free speech forum of all time, the Internet, because of computers and AI.
Or soon won't.
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You REALLY want that system in the US?
Reading comprehension is an embarrassment for you.
Please quote my advocacy for China's policy to be implemented in the US.
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Every goddam country on the planet has quirky laws. That's their business. America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?
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America has a major fucking gun problem. China and every other country is astonished at the craziness. Are you willing to bend to peer pressure in that regard?
I wonder if you realize that the majority of gun violence is done by illegal guns. So more laws against that won't help. See drug trade for more details on how that works.
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If your logic is that the US government does horrible things, so that should excuse the Chinese or any other government when THEY do terrible things, then you are a part of the problem. "quirky laws" would be things such as needing to get a permit before allowing your pet moose to enter a bar with you. Making it so you say something against the government and suddenly you are no longer allowed to fly on a plane isn't what I would call a quirky law.
Absolutely guaranteed Due Process (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm absolutely certain this system comes with the all the due process checks and balances necessary to ensure it's not abused by the wealthy and connected to punish those they disagree with.
In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list. This is one those tools the Chinese will use to abuse people who don't fall in line with the communist party or dare criticize the leadership.
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In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list.
There are no similarities with Guantanamo, that's only for foreign nationals who were caught engaging in terrorist activities or on the field of battle.
The No Fly List is a bit closer, but it's hard to make the case that having bad credit or smoking on a train is the same as being a suspected terrorist.
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In fact I'm absolutely sure it come with absolutely no due process whatsoever. Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list.
There are no similarities with Guantanamo, that's only for foreign nationals who were caught engaging in terrorist activities or on the field of battle.
The lack of due process is a distinct similarity. If the people in gitmo have committed crimes, why don't we charge them? If due process is a right, why don't these people have that right?
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A suspected terrorist is innocent until proven guilty. When you called them a suspect, I already knew it is disputed and you haven't proven it yet according to the necessary process.
If we know for sure that the guy was really smoking on the train, he sounds like a proven terrorist to me. Give him the death penalty for intentionally putting other people's lives at risk.
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"Kinda like Guantanamo or the no fly list."
Actually, those both actually have a due process:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/0... [nytimes.com] as an example of the former.
and
https://www.tsa.gov/travel/pas... [tsa.gov] for the latter.
Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps for (Score:3)
Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps for people of groups like Falun Gong and others are put in them?
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They're literally putting Uighurs in reeducation camps right now.
Re:Sounds like nazi germany how long before camps (Score:5, Informative)
You're either being sarcastic or overlooking the current Muslim detention camps:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/world/asia/xinjiang-china-forced-labor-camps-uighurs.html [nytimes.com]
Godwins Law (Score:2)
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You might want to research what happened to Falun Gong. You're about 20 years late to rescue them from being put in camps and turned into living organ banks. Not even exaggerating. Look it up.
The implications are more interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
China must have tremendous confidence in its ability to suppress people to create common cause for 23 million people to hate the system. That big a number must contain a lot of capable people - and no doubt a bunch of mistakes. All of those now have a clear and undeniable focus for their rage and rebellion.
This sounds like a program likely to have unexpected results
Re:The implications are more interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't grasp the immense size of China's population. 23 million is a rounding error.
Even worse will be the chilling effect on the billions who must exhibit important behaviors such as 'paying off protection money to officials', 'allowing some sleazy shit local official to sleep with your wife or else', 'not being deferential enough to "important" people'
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You don't grasp the immense size of China's population. 23 million is a rounding error.
It's still about 2% of the population.
Here in the US there are 50 states, so the average state is 2% of the population of the US. This would be like everyone living in one average US state being denied certain rights.
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You're thinking in context of a free society built on Western model. China is not one, and context you're using for your conclusion simply doesn't apply.
For example, you're thinking that 23 million people here will have common cause. In reality, they will not. Instead, they will be motivated to backstab others so that they can climb back into party favour. We've seen this already in other communist states. You're also forgetting that 23 million is almost irrelevant by Chinese standards. This is a country th
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If the number is 23 million, that is 1.8% of the population, although it might be less because there is probably a lot of overlap between the people barred from flights and barred from trains.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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Some of that stuff is unconstitutional, such as NY telling banks to watch their reputations serving gun makers, or they might find difficulty getting government contracts.
Re:Just a "21st century version" of ours (Score:5, Interesting)
1. There is no concept in modern America of "did the time, paid for the crime" with regard to social attitudes and how ex-felons can be treated. 2. Say something "offensive" in public and watch a wild-eyed mob that makes a witch-burning look tame come after and try to make sure there is "no place in society" for you. 3. Now corporations are getting in on the act with Chase locking accounts because the person was a Badthinker(tm).
It's amazing how much it's changed. I recall as a kid people being able to say just about anything. It got thrown in the category of "say what you want it's a free country". People wouldn't agree, they might call you an idiot, but nobody would track you down and try and get you fired. Gotta love "progressive justice" as shown here: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/0... [nytimes.com]
Google too (Score:3, Informative)
Google has been using this model for YouTube for over a year now. Twitter and Facebook too. Blacklists are back around the world as a way to exercise power.
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Slashdot too. I'm sitting high and mighty with an "Excellent" karma rating. Whatever that means.
hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
Normally I'm all for bashing China, but
Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.
Seeing how we use actual prison for #1 and #3, and are working on it for #2, maybe they aren't as harsh as they sound with this ...
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Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information and taking drugs.
Seeing how we use actual prison for #1 and #3, and are working on it for #2, maybe they aren't as harsh as they sound with this ...
Except China has literally executed people for cheating on their taxes (at least that's the pretext) and has imprisoned people for openly worshipping Jebus. So no. This social credit thing is for minor offenders. They still have labor camps, they still have death vans.
Mind you, the state of "justice" in the USA is poor, but don't imagine that it's better in China.
1984 (Score:5, Interesting)
China is fast approaching the level of control that Orwell's 1984 describes. We're close to one security camera per citizen. Add total control of Internet, be it fixed or mobile, by the state, as well as total control of social media and payment, and you already have a system that is virtually impossible to escape from.
I am not fucking putting foot in the Peple's Republic of China. It jsut isn't happening.
Re:1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
Tibet comes first I guess?
Might also check this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/... [wikimedia.org]
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You seem to believe that just because one government is horrible that you should then excuse other governments when they also do horrible things. The US government, or Chinese, or ANY government should be called out for doing horrible things, and just because people may live in one country or another should not make you assume that they approve or support horrible actions.
If the US Government does something wrong, then yes, say something, and do something, but don't point at the USA and then say that it i
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Singapore's example (Score:3)
Setting the record straight . . . (Score:2)
https://www.scmp.com/economy/c... [scmp.com]
Black Mirror (Score:3)
Black Mirror - Season 3 Ep 1 - Nosedive
I can see it happening.
Re:Coming soon to the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Coming soon to the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.
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Organisations like those that run trains in China you mean?
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Funny from a progressive (Score:2, Insightful)
You argue that the companies control the government, but then say it's good that the same companies censor people you dislike, because it's not the government doing it. Your hypocrisy is rich.
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There's a huge difference between organizations enforcing their own rules and the government running a system to disenfranchise people.
However when no alternative exists in either system then the net result is the same - disenfranchised people. And disenfranchised people who have no outlet will get more extreme.
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t's not like social media is where a sizeable amount of people get their information regarding society and politics.
I think you misspelled "disinformation"...
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Isn't that for people to decide and work out themselves instead of unaccountable tech giants with monopolistic control over information online?
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You might think so, but people are building apps that record a permenent database on you and anything you did online, so it will float above your head in a virtual overlay. It is just like that Black Mirror episode but on steroids.
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I don't understand your comment. People shouldn't be the ones to decide how they are informed because tech giants with monopolistic control over information online have databases of information that can be used to misinform people?
I don't know what Black Mirror is and haven't seen it.
Re: Coming soon to the USA (Score:2)
Being an asshole isn't a protected class.
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Fuck that, lets just kill the nazis. Worked last time.
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Why do you believe that private companies have to provide a publishing platform for ideas that are deemed to be repulsive or counter to established principles? The alt-right (and extreme left) are marginalized and unpopular so they believe that others should be required to publish their crap. Get your own damn social network media
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When you say that companies must serve the public (bakers, woolworth, etc...) then do it for all companies.
I know I won't convince you. It's sad that you think deplatforming people for disagreement is acceptable. Bruce Jenner won the decathlon in 1976. Oooh. According to some fools I'm "dead" naming. Look at the fools at google - they have Caitlin Jenner as the winner of the 1976 decathlon. I think this is foolsih
Fallacious thinking... (Score:2)
Wow. You use gross stereotyping and false assumptions when it suits you and can't debate the point with rational arguments
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It's coming here right now. Just look at the deplatforming being done by Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Patreon.
The one is nothing like the other. In one case, we're talking about a government deplatforming its people from all platforms, thus depriving its people of fundamental freedoms—the right to move, in this case—which are frequently exercised out of necessity, not convenience, due to factors outside of one's control. In the other case, we're talking about individual organizations deplatforming their own users from only their own platform, thus depriving those users of no rights or freedoms and not c
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No. Just no. Nothing of the sort has been proposed.
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No. Just no. Nothing of the sort has been proposed.
Not on a government level but Facebook has been trying to share data with your bank account. All sorts of other private companies share data about you between themselves. We already have the first steps in place for a privately run civic score.
Why do you think Facebook wants your bank account information? It's so that they can place ads to people based on the money they have. "Check Into Cash" for poor people and "Apple Watches" for rich people.
Why do you think the Bank wants your Facebook information?
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There's a big difference between habitual harassers being run off platforms (by those platforms) because they broke their TOS and the government making it so that you cannot travel.
Are you saying that companies have no free speech? I cannot choose who uses my platform or not? Or does that only apply when bakers refuse to make cakes for gay couples?
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You are harassing me with these statements, and should be run off all social media platforms for it.
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And be careful wishing for public opinion driving corporations to ignore people tracked by a database as having supported candidate X. That shoe could ne on the other foot.
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I think the problem is that who they want on their platform is not codified up front. I'm liberal, and I'm rather disgusted by how many people are thrown off these platforms. And then anytime someone comes along and tries to make one that's "free speech" based, it's immediately associated with nazis or other bad elements.
If Twitter wants their platform to be for far-left ideologues only, okay. But say that up front.
Re: Sound's like a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Coming to a western democracy near you soon.
The San Francisco Tech Oligopoly are doing their best. Fortunately, they aren't backed by the rule of law (yet) and in the US new alternatives are gradually emerging to allow uncensored political discussion online.
It's a much worse situation in e.g. the UK, where it's now illegal to offend people, and blasphemy laws are routinely enforced (under the label of hate speech). But the UK hasn't fallen off the cliff yet. There was discussion in parliament a while back during the riots about removing benefits for people identified as rioters (most of whom have no practical means of legal survival except a government check). But the discussion didn't go anywhere, and sanity prevailed for now. Still prety close to that cliff edge though.
It's not at all clear that a society can ever recover from a panopticon totalitarianism.
Re: Sound's like a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Well America does it privately. Credit bureaus to keep track of if you didn't pay back loans, lists of people who were arrested along with a culture of not hiring someone if previously arrested, as you must be a bad person if ever arrested and a really bad person if found or forced to plead guilty. As it is a private decision not to hire, rent housing etc it's considered fine.
Government also gets involved with lists of people not allowed to fly, lists of people not allowed to live in certain places, lists of people not allowed to own firearms and even lists of people not allowed to vote.
These lists usually make sense at first look, eg not allowing sex offenders to live by kids, until you look at all the reasons the government will put you on the sex offenders list.
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Re: Sound's like a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's 1.66% of China's population. Pointing out that 23 million is a large percentage of the USA population is an absurd attempt at disinformation.
For an equivalent group in the USA, we might look at people whose right to vote (and to hold a lot of jobs) has been revoked due to a previous felony conviction. As of 2016, 2.5% of the USA's voting age population was barred from voting due to a felony -- if you spread that out over the full population, it'd be just a little more than than China's socially discredited group. Considering China imprisons far fewer people, social credit may be seen as an alternative punishment for that population.
(Of course, the entire Chinese population lacks the right to meaningful voting.)
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We already have it.
When someone has committed a felony or has been arrested (even if innocent) the action is on the record, making it harder for people to get jobs, apply for loans, and do things in general to help them improve their lives.
For a lot of criminals, they don't do crime because they want to be a bad person, they do it because they cannot see any better alternatives. Then if they get caught, and once they leave jail, even more better alternatives are now off the table.
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We already have it.
When someone has committed a felony or has been arrested (even if innocent) the action is on the record, making it harder for people to get jobs, apply for loans, and do things in general to help them improve their lives.
For a lot of criminals, they don't do crime because they want to be a bad person, they do it because they cannot see any better alternatives. Then if they get caught, and once they leave jail, even more better alternatives are now off the table.
As bad as that is, it impacts far fewer people than what China does; although, it's probably inevitable that we're sliding down the same path in the US unless some sort of regulation on how private data is shared.
Over here it might not be so much a government sponsored score; but one maintained by private companies.
AI identifies a tattoo on one guy on his facebook photo. Because on average the average person without tattoos probably does less jail time than the person with tattoos- he drops 40 points in hi
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That has to be the shittiest rationalization of crime ever.
If Mr. X steals something from Mr. Y and the cops accidentally arrest you before realizing their mistake; you're innocent, but you have a public record that people can look up on the internet.
You don't have to actually commit a crime to be listed online for having been arrested for one.
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The Chinese have persecuted the falun gong with even more vengeance.
The Chinese Communist Party sees any independent civil society organization as a threat, because it can form a nucleus for political unrest. Falun Gong has gone much further than the Christian churches in creating a parallel civil society structure outside of CCP control. The illegal churches are mostly independent of each other, and try to keep a low profile. Falun Gong has directly challenged the CCP, even holding several big protests in Tiananmen Square back in 1999-2000.
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The Chinese have persecuted the falun gong with even more vengeance.
And both are wrong. Persecuting someone for their religion is wrong either way.
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Fuck China.
I'll try- but there's far too many of them and I need more downtime between encounters than I did as a teenager.