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Privacy Databases Medicine The Almighty Buck United States Politics

Proposed Bill Would Force Arizonians To Pay $250 To Have Their DNA Added To a Database (gizmodo.com) 357

technology_dude writes: One by one, thresholds are being crossed where the collection and storage of personal data is accepted as routine. Being recorded by cameras at business locations, in public transportation, in schools, churches, and every other place imaginable. Recent headlines include "Singapore Airlines having cameras built into the seat back of personal entertainment systems," and "Arizona considering a bill to force some public workers to give up DNA samples (and even pay for it)." It seems to be a daily occurrence where we have crossed another line in how far we will go to accept massive surveillance as normal. Do we even have a line the sand that we would defend? Do we even see anything wrong with it? Absolute power corrupts absolutely and we continue to give knowledge of our personal lives (power) to others. If we continue down the same path, I suppose we deserve what we get? I want to shout "Stop the train, I want off!" but I fear my plea would be ignored. So who out there is more optimistic than I and can recommend some reading that will give me hope? Bill 1475 was introduced by Republican State Senator David Livingston and would require teachers, police officers, child day care workers, and many others to submit their DNA samples along with fingerprints to be stored in a database maintained by the Department of Public Safety. "While the database would be prohibited from storing criminal or medical records alongside the DNA samples, it would require the samples be accompanied by the person's name, Social Security number, date of birth and last known address," reports Gizmodo. "The living will be required to pay [a $250 processing fee] for this invasion of their privacy, but any dead body that comes through a county medical examiner's office would also be fair game to be entered into the database."
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Proposed Bill Would Force Arizonians To Pay $250 To Have Their DNA Added To a Database

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  • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:24AM (#58150904)

    . . . they'll have to get it the old fashioned way.

    They can kiss my hairy ass, and swab their lips afterwards.

    We have a positive match of your DNA to a murder crime scene from 1910. This was before you were born, but it could have been an accident with a contraceptive in a time machine.

  • David (Score:5, Funny)

    by mentil ( 1748130 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:30AM (#58150924)

    Bill 1475 was introduced by Republican State Senator David Livingston

    I presumed it'd be a Republican to do this.

    • Re:David (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Freischutz ( 4776131 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:00AM (#58150980)

      Bill 1475 was introduced by Republican State Senator David Livingston

      I presumed it'd be a Republican to do this.

      ... and what are you willing to bet that he either has a stake in the company doing the sampling or received generous cash donations from them?

      • Re:David (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:54AM (#58151102)

        You are more accurate than you know. From the article, it looks like he "represents" those who pay him:

        The last time Rep. Livingston made headlines was in 2017 when he sponsored legislation that would make the contents of an insurance policy’s cover sheet and synopsis unenforceable if the long-form contract is different. According to the Arizona Capitol Times, one of Livingston’s fellow lawmakers questioned him on why he was bringing that legislation forward. Livingston reportedly said at the time that “citizens of the state of Arizona” had asked for it. When he was asked if those citizens were “connected to insurance agencies, companies, groups, special interests related to insurance,” Livingstone replied with a simple “yes.”

        • Re:David (Score:4, Interesting)

          by rickb928 ( 945187 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:14AM (#58151550) Homepage Journal

          Even better. Arizona real estate law, and I bet contract law, specifies that revisions are expected to be honored in preference to 'previous' provisions, in contracts, the principle being that a change should be considered the intention. But insurance policies are, indeed, different, as the cover sheet and synopsis are murky bits, with much dispute over whether these are the governing statements of a policy.

          The bill to make that explicit was actually a good idea, if it had included the requirement of a disclaimer, required to be in the largest font used on the page other than for titling, stating that everything on the cover sheet and synopsis was nonbinding... Which of course could, for some, raise the suspicion that the insurer was not being entirely truthful in the summary...

          Couldn't have THAT, could we?

          • by sjames ( 1099 )

            The cover sheet and synopsis are supposed to summarize the long form, that is they are effectively written afterwards. Thus, anything in the cover sheet that disagrees with the long form should be considered one of those changes that you suggest should be honored.

            Given the density of a long form contract, the cover sheet and summary are also the only part the customer is likely to actually be able to read for comprehension.

            A law supporting consumers would explicitly make the cover sheet superior to the long

        • You are more accurate than you know. From the article, it looks like he "represents" those who pay him:

          The last time Rep. Livingston made headlines was in 2017 when he sponsored legislation that would make the contents of an insurance policy’s cover sheet and synopsis unenforceable if the long-form contract is different. According to the Arizona Capitol Times, one of Livingston’s fellow lawmakers questioned him on why he was bringing that legislation forward. Livingston reportedly said at the time that “citizens of the state of Arizona” had asked for it. When he was asked if those citizens were “connected to insurance agencies, companies, groups, special interests related to insurance,” Livingstone replied with a simple “yes.”

          Well it was just a guess based on the motivations behind similar pieces of legislation on my side of the pond (regardless of the political leaning of the legislator), apparently things work depressingly similarly in the US.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      This gem will be a gift to the Democrats in Arizona...another pol own goal.

    • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      Why would you assume that? Its not like from 2008 - 216 we didnt see sweeping erosion of our privacy. Vault 7, the snowden files, project Prism, NDAA, need I go on? Prettymuch every political party except libertarian is marching straight toward an Orwellian future.

      The whole Drain The Swamp mantra did not start with Donald Trump. He just latched onto it. Its a serious issue. The swamp has no particular party affiliation. It is an unelected mob of puppet masters working behind the scenes to orchestrate an age

      • The whole Drain The Swamp mantra did not start with Donald Trump.

        No but we all know that Mexicans are rapists. From there it's no big intuitive leap to New Mexicans are rapists. Guilt by association, I'm afraid, means Arizonians must be rapists too. We need your DNA and we should probably build a wall around Arizona while we're at it.

        • Sadly, there is a kernel of truth in your rant.

          Please don't exceed that truth. It is enough by itself.

      • The whole Drain The Swamp mantra did not start with Donald Trump. He just latched onto it. Its a serious issue. The swamp has no particular party affiliation.

        Unfortunately, we drained the swamp and turned it into a landfill instead.

        • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

          The swamp is far from drained. Maybe an inch or two siphoned off the surface at most. Keep in mind that this has been slowly building up since Eisenhower left office. It scared the crap out of him, he even warned everyone is a publicly televised broadcast. If he even had a clue how big and dangerous it was going to grow, he probably would have taken a bigger stance. At the time he saw mechanations of involving the US in foreign conflicts in order to secure purchases of weapons, technology, and equipment for

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            Bullshit.

            Trump brought the goddam swamp with him. Mueller's doing the draining.

            • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

              you honestly think that there was NO erosion of liberties before 2017? Were you born yesterday? Or just under a rock? its been break-neck speed since the signing of the Patriot Act. You might want to look into which members voted for that. Actually just go find which ones voted against it, its a _much_ shorter list.

  • by Registered Coward v2 ( 447531 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:33AM (#58150928)
    Fire them? If entire staff at schools, police departments, etc. refuse to take the test and pay it won't turn out well if they try to fire them. Between lawsuits, union fights and politicians trying to explain why school is canceled and the police/fire are not answering calls things will get sorted out quickly. My guess the bill dies quietly in committee...
    • by Tomahawk ( 1343 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:43AM (#58150948) Homepage

      It's well and good, but these people need jobs. They are more likely to give them what they want than be out of the street wondering where their next meal will come from.

      People's security is very important to them, and companies know this.

      The best way to stop this is via the law, preferably Federal law.

      • by mentil ( 1748130 )

        People's security is very important to them,

        Indeed. If the Police/Fire Department are on strike, who's going to protect the Governor against a random thug or a little spark? It would be a shame if anything were to happen, right?

        • by gtall ( 79522 )

          They'll just hire new people. Steve Scalise got his ass shot off and yet still found it within himself to promote more guns. Never underestimate a pol's moral depravity.

          • by Dunbal ( 464142 ) *
            Never underestimate unions, either.
      • It's well and good, but these people need jobs. They are more likely to give them what they want than be out of the street wondering where their next meal will come from.

        People's security is very important to them, and companies know this.

        The best way to stop this is via the law, preferably Federal law.

        Class. Action. Suit.

      • Well, if we're going all out, that fucking Republican has a job in Arizona, doesn't he?

    • They fire them, but in a different way than you think.

      > "The living will be required to pay [a $250 processing fee] for this invasion of their privacy, butany dead body that comes through a county medical examiner's office would also be fair game to be entered into the database."

      So, if one refuses to pay $250, they kill him, and then they send the body to the medical examiner's office.
      • They fire them, but in a different way than you think. > "The living will be required to pay [a $250 processing fee] for this invasion of their privacy, butany dead body that comes through a county medical examiner's office would also be fair game to be entered into the database." So, if one refuses to pay $250, they kill him, and then they send the body to the medical examiner's office.

        I see how you got your /. name; you clearly are a visionary. Seriously, while I doubt staff overall might take such actions their unions would probably intercede on their behalf, along with groups such as the ACLU. One would thnk cops would liek such a database but when all the cops I know sound like ACLU lawyers when they feel their rights are violated, and offer advice such as "never talk to a cop if he asks what you did; all they want to do is get you to confess." and have their union rep on speed dial.

    • by jeti ( 105266 )
      Same as with mandatory drug tests.
    • also min wage workers can't be forced to pay that fee and the work place will have to pay it.

    • I don't know about AZ specifically, but cops in some jurisdictions have crazy shit written into their contracts. Like having 24 hours to get their story straight before being questioned for a possible crime they committed. So if this fascist shit sandwich makes it through committee and into a signed bill, maybe the Fraternal Order of the Gestapo can use their power for good, for once, and fight it until it's repealed.

  • "Freedom" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tomahawk ( 1343 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:39AM (#58150942) Homepage

    It seems the more and more the meaning of the word "Freedom" and "Land of the Free" is becoming more and more watered down.
    And I'm not sure I'm surprised, to be honest. It seems that the USA, for everything that it does have, has forgotten about its people.

    There are many countries in the world where this sort of thing just wouldn't happen. Some have laws to protect their citizens (Europe being one -- no was would the GDPR allow this to happen, for example), and some just wouldn't have it within their culture.

    I do fear for the USA sometimes. Things are constantly happening there are making it one of the least free countries in the world. It's a trend that I don't see stopping. You might have missed the deadline of 1984, but I fear that's where you are all heading.

    And it's a bit scary looking at it from here.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      The bill hasn't passed and is unlikely to pass. It's about as important as one of Trump's tweets and is going just about as far.

    • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      I was under the impression that London had more CCTV cameras then just about every city combined. Of course I read that article in the MSM, so it could be entirely fucking bogus. But no you’re kidding yourself if you think that you’re protected from small quiet erosions of liberty. That’s exactly how they do it. It’s the same playbook over and over and over again

      Think about the children
      Its to protect us
      We only want to spy on the really bad people

      The shit goes way back. US

      • The Machine (Score:5, Interesting)

        by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @08:50AM (#58151416)

        London is also trying to roll out facial recognition, tied into a database that tracks movements. They are basically trying to build The Machine from Person Of Interest, that tracks everyone using cameras and cell phones to predict crimes. The difference being, in Person of Interest, the designer made it so you couldn't "direct" the Machine - it only spat out the ID of potential terrorists. London's technology is totally unencumbered by such fail-safes.

        • The US already has this, but since it's a car-based culture it uses automatic license plate recognition rather than facial recognition. The police have these cameras EVERYWHERE. They then give the data to private corporations and buy it back as a "service" so they don't have to deal with any pesky data retention restrictions or FOIA requests. Big brother is here, and even though he has a record of where anyone who has a car traveled he always wants more. Think of the children! Law enforcement needs a b

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      There is a book that’s now at a print that you should find and read called radio warfare. Before reading that book I was not aware that during World War II George Orwell worked in psychological operations or PsyOps. They quickly realized it was a lot easier to run propaganda against their own people than it was the enemy. The book 1984 was not a fictional imagination of a dark future, it was the only way to get the word out about a roadmap. Slowly, patiently, like a snowball gaining momentum, tha

      • by green1 ( 322787 )
        The second amendment people are delusional. Their guns do not in any way protect them against the government. The military has weaponry, and armour, far beyond anything available to these people.

        If the military is against you, your handful of small arms won't save you. If the military is with you, your handful of small arms won't be needed. In either case the person most likely to be killed by, or due to, your small arms is you.

        Now if you want to talk about "a good guy with a gun" vs "a bad guy with a gun",
    • I agree with you and here's the scariest part:

      The American people are still driving the truck.

      The way to shut this motherfucker up is to make goddam sure he doesn't survive the next election cycle.

      It's not that Americans don't matter, it's that they just don't care.

  • More big government (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Evil Atheist ( 2484676 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:59AM (#58150972)
    It's always Republicans that want bigger government. It's not about taxes, Libertarians, it's about power.
    • by Shotgun ( 30919 )

      Really? Always? Have you not read even ONE news story covering the Green New Deal?

  • Gee, I wonder where the taxes really end up.
  • I don't think most of the commenters actually read the post. Technology_dude was asking for reading recommendations to make him feel better. I can't suggest anything real. Whenever I read things that make me feel better, like new stuff the FSF is doing, it's always tinged by how frequently it's not enough or doesn't spread. For fiction, tho, I read Punch Escrow recently and found it's vision of our future to be uplifting. It's not a utopia, but it may very well be that those are off the table.
  • nt
  • by Alain Williams ( 2972 ) <addw@phcomp.co.uk> on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:55AM (#58151104) Homepage

    If they want this then they should lead by example and be the first to have their DNA added to this database.

  • >" It seems to be a daily occurrence where we have crossed another line in how far we will go to accept massive surveillance as normal."

    Forced mass collection of DNA is REALLY crossing a lot of lines. I can't believe anyone would even propose such a bill.

    • Forced mass collection of DNA is REALLY crossing a lot of lines. I can't believe anyone would even propose such a bill.

      Mass collection? This is only the collection of DNA of public employees, and not all of them. You don't want to pay to have your DNA collected, don't work for the government....

  • by Sqreater ( 895148 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @07:53AM (#58151240)
    Now, and surely more certainly in the future, the information demanded in this law will allow others to become you absolutely anytime they want to. Name, address, social security number, even DNA - what else is left that defines you as you? Hackers will have a field day. We Americans have lost the belief that freedom should cost anything in our daily lives. We are willing to give up freedom, privacy and rights if we think we can attain some minor level of safety and protection by doing so. Those who strive for more power over Americans know this and use this cowardice.
  • How much would I get to give them my DNA -

    $ 5k ?

    probably way too low....
    • Nope. You don't get anything. In fact, you need to pay so that they can store all of your personal information and DNA on a "totally secure" server.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by rickb928 ( 945187 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:07AM (#58151514) Homepage Journal

    I fear this is a response to a recent incident of abuse at an extended care center here in Arizona. An incident so abhorrent I will not describe it here. So we have an ambulance chaser making such a noble proposal...

    And the overreach:

    In Arizona, this will include real estate salespersons and brokers, among others. The current list of those required, in Arizona, to obtain a fingerprint clearance card:

    ABDE-Dental Hygienist Licensure
    ABDE-Dentist Licensure
    ABDE-Denturist Certification
    ADFI-Appraisal Management/Controlling person
    ADFI-Appraisal Management/Registration
    ADFI-Appraiser-License or Certificate
    ADOT Traffic School Licensure
    ADOT-Driver Training School Licensure
    AZ Board of Fingerprinting-Members & Staff
    AZ Charter School Board-Member/Applicant
    AZ Dept. of Ed-Attend Vocational Program; Age 22 or older
    AZ Dept. of Ed-Child Nutrition Programs
    AZ Dept. of Ed-Surrogate Parents
    AZ Dept. Real Estate-Licensure
    AZ Game and Fish
    AZ Schools for the Deaf & Blind-Superintendent
    BPT - Physical Therapist & Assistants Licensure
    BTR-Alarm Agent Certification
    BTR-Controlling Person Certification
    DCS - Child Welfare/Adoption Agency Employee
    DCS-Adoption
    DCS-Employee or IT Employee or IT Employees of Contractors or Subcontractors
    DCS-Field Employee
    DCS-Foster Home Licensure
    Department of Juvenile Corrections-Licensee or Contract Provider
    DES-CCR&R Registered Home
    DES-Certified Child Care Provider & Non-Certified Relative Provider
    DES-DAAS-Division of Aging & Adult Svcs.
    DES-DDD - Developmental Home Licensure
    DES-DDD/HCBS-Home & Community Based Svcs.
    DES-Domestic Violence/Homeless Shelter
    DES-Employee
    DES-IT Position
    DES-Employee or Contractor with access to Federal Tax Information
    DES-JOBS Program
    DES-WIOA-Workforce Innovation & Opportunity Act
    DHS-Arizona State Hospital
    DHS-Child Care Employees & Volunteers
    DHS-Child Care Facility Licensure
    DHS-Child Care Group Home; Certification, Employees or Volunteers
    DHS-Children’s Behavioral Health Programs Employees and Volunteers
    DHS-Nursing Care Administrators & Assisted Living Facility Managers
    DHS-Residential or Nursing Care Institutions; Home Health Agencies – Employees and Volunteers
    Health Science Student & Clinical Assistant
    Juvenile Probation-Supreme Court, County Attorney or other Contract Provider Employee or Volunteer
    State Board of Pharmacy-3rd Party Logistic Providers Representative
    State Board of Pharmacy-Licensure
    State Board of Education (Teacher or Other Certification)
    Tutor or Teacher Preparation Programs
    Charter School Instructor
    School Bus Driver
    Public and/or Charter School Non-certificated personnel
    Public and/or Charter School Contractor, Subcontractor or Vendor and their Employees

    Of note; appraisers, IT subcontractors and their employees, alarm agents.

    The bill specifies collection from (with my notes in parentheses):

    1. A PERSON WHO IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS FOR PURPOSES OF IDENTIFICATION AS PART OF AN APPLICATION FOR LICENSURE, CERTIFICATION OR A PERMIT OR RENEWAL OF A LICENSE, CERTIFICATE OR PERMIT IF THE PERSON HAS NOT PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED DNA ID. (see the list above)

    2. A PERSON WHOSE EMPLOYMENT OR POSITION REQUIRES FINGERPRINTING FOR PURPOSES OF IDENTIFICATION. (apparently requiring collection if an employer requires fingerprinting, overreach)

    3. A PERSON WHO IS EMPLOYED BY OR VOLUNTEERING WITH A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. (redundant)

    4. A PERSON WHO, FOR ANY OTHER REASON, IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO SUBMIT FINGERPRINTS FOR PURPOSES OF IDENTIFICATION. (redundant)

    5. A DECEASED PERSON, WHOSE DNA ID SHALL BE COLLECTED BY THE MEDICAL EXAMINER OR THE MEDICAL EXAMINER'S DESIGNEE AND SUBMITTED PURSUANT TO PROTOCOLS DEVELOPED BY THE DEPARTMENT. A DECEASED PERSON'S DNA ID MUST BE SUBMITTED TO THE DEPARTMENT WITHIN TWENTY-FOUR HOURS AFTER COLLECTION.

    6. A PERSON WHO IS ORDERED BY

  • If you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to hide. I am squeaky clean and planning on moving to Arizona to prove it. Wait, what do you mean 'databases and the people who use them aren't infallible?'. Oh well, here's my $250 anyway. Feel free to shove it up my ass while I'm bent over for the rest of your laws.
  • by dasunt ( 249686 ) on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:25AM (#58151614)

    We're to the point these days where we can usually use available DNA databases to narrow down suspects to a small family. If we have an unknown DNA sample, we can sequence it, match it against the genealogy DNA databases out there (usually GEDCOM). We'll find that the unknown DNA matches both the Doe family and the Roe families, leaving us to find the individuals resulting from a marriage between the two families. After that, it's just a matter of some simple deduction (e.g. Jane Doe and Richard Roe had four children, one was male while the suspect's DNA was female, another was living in Alaska at the time, but the third and fourth one was in the area at the time of the murder), some police work to retrieve a sample of DNA (e.g. tail them, wait for them to get a coffee and then fish the empty coffee cup out of the trash), and it's done.

    The cat's out of the bag at this point. Assume GEDCOM and the other genealogy databases go defunct. Okay, great, you've just delayed the problem for a few years before some federal contractor builds in the ability to match DNA samples to relatives who have been incarcerated or DNA collected at a crime scene. (The US locks up a lot of people. Countless others (including murder victims) have their DNA collected by the police for the purpose of elimination.)

    I think the question we should be asking is what limits should we put on this power? And how do we work on training police and prosecutors in this new era? What instructions do we give to a jury? Because when you can match anyone's DNA that you find at a crime scene, it's going to lead to more random coincidences and mistakes. (A famous one would be the "serial killer" whose DNA was found at multiple crime scenes - but it turned out the "killer" was a factory worker at the place that makes the swabs being used.)

  • Quote:
    It seems to be a daily occurrence where we have crossed another line in how far we will go to accept massive surveillance as normal. Do we even have a line the sand that we would defend? Do we even see anything wrong with it? Absolute power corrupts absolutely and we continue to give knowledge of our personal lives (power) to others. If we continue down the same path, I suppose we deserve what we get? I want to shout "Stop the train, I want off!" but I fear my plea would be ignored.

    ----

    Subby l
  • I for one am glad that we are creating a database that can be used to conclusively identify Arizonans. Even though Arizonans can look just like normal people, with this technology we will be able to finally root them out.
  • In another state they tried to do simple fingerprinting of existing IT employees and got smacked down [timesunion.com], and it was at employer's expense. Are Arizona's public employee unions made of toilet paper?

  • Yes, parents are paranoid about teachers and day care workers, but their is no reasonable excuse to DNA test them. They do not commit more crimes than other professions nor do they have an easier time hiding from an investigation.

    But police officers are very very hard to charge, let alone convict of a crime. In addition, they routinely contaminate crime scenes with their DNA, so they should have it taken if only to prevent the forensics teams from thinking that a random drop of cop blood came from the crim

  • If I lived in Arizona I'd first refuse utterly to comply with this if it were passed into law. Then if that failed I'd pack up and leave Arizona. My DNA is nobodys' business but mine. If passed into law somehow (doubt it) I'd recommend everyone in Arizona who is affected refuse to comply. It's too nasty of a precedent if this is actually allowed to become Arizona law.

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