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The Courts Transportation United States

Pedestrians, E-Scooters Are Clashing In the Struggle For Sidewalk Space (latimes.com) 278

Posted by BeauHD from the pending-litigation dept.
Slashdot reader mileshigh writes: Activists in California have filed a federal lawsuit alleging that parked scooters littering sidewalks interfere with sidewalk accessibility for people with multiple types of disabilities and violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Many people have been wondering when this would happen since California courts are notoriously friendly to ADA complaints and lawsuits. Realistically, this type of lawsuit may well be the Achilles' heel of scooter-sharing services, especially if they're granted class-action status as this lawsuit is requesting. Will likely be the first of many. "Without full use of the sidewalk and curb ramps at street intersections, persons with mobility and/or visual impairments have significant barriers in crossing from a pedestrian walkway to a street," the suit alleges. "This is exacerbated when the sidewalk itself is full of obstructions and no longer able to be fully and freely used by people with disabilities."

The suit accuses the city of not maintaining streets and sidewalks in a way that doesn't discriminate against the disabled and allowing "dockless scooters used primarily for recreational purposes to proliferate unchecked throughout San Diego and to block safe and equal access for people with disabilities." The lawsuit also alleges the scooter companies have been allowed to "appropriate the public commons for their own profit."
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Pedestrians, E-Scooters Are Clashing In the Struggle For Sidewalk Space More

Pedestrians, E-Scooters Are Clashing In the Struggle For Sidewalk Space

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  • Motorized (Score:5)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:23PM (#57954950)
    Why would anyone think it was ok to ride a motorized vehicle on the sidewalk?

    • Re:Motorized (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:31PM (#57954988) Journal
      Because the average person is pretty dumb, that's why.
      These e-scooters are dangerous to begin with. I forsee them being banned universally before too long.

    • Re:Motorized (Score:5, Informative)

      by Areyoukiddingme ( 1289470 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:31PM (#57954996)

      Why would anyone think it was ok to ride a motorized vehicle on the sidewalk?

      Carrying on the time honored Slashdot tradition of not even reading the summary I see...

      They're not. They're parking on the sidewalks. And the city government is too lazy and incompetent to do their fucking jobs and enforce their own laws, as with most California cities. Until now, when somebody finally found a bigger victim. In California's victim politics, the biggest victim wins.

      • It's a problem with a pretty clear solution (Score:5, Interesting)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:48PM (#57955096)
        send meter maids around to collect the scooters that are illegally parked and auction them off. This is what most municipalities are doing and it pretty much would wreck their business model, which they seem to be aware of [slashdot.org].

        I don't necessarily think this is a bad idea. It could potentially make commuting by bus viable in major cities that were laid out with cars in mind and do so long before self driving cars are a thing. But more thought needs to be given to it.

      • Re:Motorized (Score:4, Informative)

        by Ol Olsoc ( 1175323 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @03:11PM (#57955196)

        Why would anyone think it was ok to ride a motorized vehicle on the sidewalk?

        Carrying on the time honored Slashdot tradition of not even reading the summary I see...

        They're not. They're parking on the sidewalks. And the city government is too lazy and incompetent to do their fucking jobs and enforce their own laws, as with most California cities. Until now, when somebody finally found a bigger victim. In California's victim politics, the biggest victim wins.

        Ahem - at least one person in the FA was riding his scooter on the sidewalk.

      • Re:Motorized (Score:4, Informative)

        by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @04:44PM (#57955644) Journal
        I didn't make it up to San Francisco on my last trip to the Bay Area, but everywhere between San Jose and Mountain View that I visited had people riding them on sidewalks and on the road ignoring traffic signals. Parking them seemed to be the smallest problem: people are riding them dangerously without any kind of insurance, who suffers when they hit a car or a pedestrian?

        • Californians don't obey traffic signals in general, though.

          Also, you were in sprawlville, not in the City, so it wouldn't tell you anything at all about the problems it creates in an urban core.

          • Granted I haven't been back to SF since this scooter trend started. But it's very hard indeed to imagine _anything_ that could somehow make downtown SF an even shittier shithole than it already is.

        • people riding them on sidewalks and on the road ignoring traffic signals.

          Because a scooter has less metal surface than a car, an induction loop in the approach to an intersection with a demand-actuated signal set might not pick it up. This has happened several times to me with my bicycle in my home town. When stuck at a red light for several minutes, what's the operator of a scooter supposed to do?

      • Re:Motorized (Score:5, Informative)

        by Crispy Critters ( 226798 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:10PM (#57955740)
        The FA may not talk about it, but most people are riding them on the sidewalk in San Diego. I would say about 3/4, but it probably varies by neighborhood. Some scooter riders use bike lanes and follow normal bike safety protocols around traffic, but less than 1 in 10 wears a helmet.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by llamalad ( 12917 )

      Because they're an e-biker and have read the law?

      https://peopleforbikes.org/blo... [peopleforbikes.org]
      https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/... [bayareabicyclelaw.com]

      • Re:Motorized (Score:4, Informative)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:42PM (#57955060)

        I don't see that the page you linked to says you can ride bicycles on sidewalks. It outlines several different types of bike paths, none of which are sidewalks (one is separated from a main road by, for example, a sidewalk). It does say that bicycles of all types must obey the rules of the road (no driving on the sidewalk?).

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          You are right, he didn't. Riding bicycles on sidewalks is legal in CA, however, absent local regulations like in most of the country. I am not a CA resident, but I saw this: https://www.sallymorinlaw.com/... [sallymorinlaw.com]

          " California Vehicle Code Sections 21650(g) and 21206 state that there is no prohibition against riding on a sidewalk in the absence of a local municipal ban."

          Also note that there are other states beyond CA, most of which allow bicycles on sidewalks, and that in most areas e-bikes are legally viewed as

          • Re:Motorized (Score:4, Informative)

            by Aighearach ( 97333 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @07:07PM (#57956198)

            For example in Oregon you can ride a bike on the sidewalk, but you're supposed to ride at walking speed and you absolutely have to yield to pedestrians; on a residential street, that is no problem. But downtown, even in a small city, there is basically no way to ride legally on the sidewalk, because you'd have to dismount and walk the bike to successfully yield to all the pedestrians.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by iggymanz ( 596061 )

        you mean they're an e-biker and haven't read the laws that forbid motorized vehicles on the sidewalk

        get them the fuck off the sidewalk

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          e-bikes are not classified "motorized vehicles" in 31 states and DC, including the nation's two largest states by population. It is you that hasn't "read the laws" which isn't surprising considering your intolerant potty mouth.

          http://www.ncsl.org/research/t... [ncsl.org]

          • You are the ignorant one. Yes, e-bikes *defined* in those states, but mostly NOT ALLOWED ON THE SIDEWALK, they have to use the streets. That includes my state.

        • Most states have already passed laws that make a Personal Mobility Device or powered bicycle considered a "bicycle" if it is either incapable of exceeding 15mph, or electronically speed-limited to 15mph. Often there is an allowance for small gas engines, too, below some displacement size.

          Read the laws; those are bicycles!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by 1ucius ( 697592 )

      The article doesn't say, but I'd assume they are talking about scooters being 'parked' on the sidewalk.

    • Because its a cultural long term issue that has been delayed to deal with for quite a while.
      Basically kick bikes are considered sidewalk worthy by US and British law. Where bicycles has to go on the road, due the same legal history from the early 1900s.
      And this isn't the case all over the world, but thats a different issue.

      The actual problem is that due the way cities are built, streets are somewhat undersized for actual populated areas. By itself it became this way because legally your options where to bik

      • "Basically kick bikes are considered sidewalk worthy by US and Britishlaw"

        Nope, completely illegal in the UK.

        • Are we talking about the same thing?
          Because i really really doubt it, especially has it has primary been a children toy alongside skates and rollerblades.

          • Yes, we are talking about the same thing, and yes it is illegal - although the police and council enforcement officers do have leeway in certain cases.

            Children riding bikes on the pavement is also illegal, but cant be prosecuted under the age of 10 years.

      • It is sometimes the exact opposite of that; real bicycles can ride in the street or on the sidewalk, but "kick bikes" are considered skateboards and are only allowed on the sidewalk.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        Time for some gentrification. Get the city area ready for new transport.
        New roads and buildings that can support electric cars, scooters, humans walking around.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      Because there is no reason to think otherwise. To determine whether it is safe, you need to know more than just "motorized".

      It is OK to ride a "motorized vehicle" on the sidewalk, for at least some kinds of motorized vehicles.

    • The same reason anyone thinks itâ(TM)s ok to ride a bicycle in the middle of the street when they have zero chance of keeping pace with posted speeds.

    • Um, when I grew up we were taught to ride our bikes on the sidewalks because it was safer than riding on the street. Generally the number of pedestrians was low and people didn't ride bikes at breakneck speeds like today. These scooters don't go super fast. The bigger issue are the scooter companies doing the whole business model of "act now and get permission later" and dumping scooters everywhere they can.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by trawg ( 308495 )

      In my city (Brisbane, Australia), you're allowed to use a motorised vehicle on the sidewalk; it's the same rules as for a bike - you have to keep left and give way to pedestrians.

      We've only just gotten the Lime scooters here; so far people seem to be respecting the rules. It certainly seems like only a matter of time before a pedestrian is collected by a scooter though.

      I was in Oakland a couple months ago which was the first city I've seen with these scooters and they were kinda strewn all over the place, m

  • The contractors who move the Lime bikes around seem to have instructions to put them in people’s way - in the middle of walkways and open spaces. The other day I watched a wheelchair rider at UW attempting to maneuver around some bikes which were basically blocking the entry to a sidewalk. I moved them off to the side, but this is happening often enough that I’m almost to the point of just tossing them into the bushes.

  • I sometimes see them parked in the bike lane as well where I live.
    Suffice to say they quickly and mysteriously relocate to nearby bushes or ditch.

    • I sometimes see them parked in the bike lane as well where I live. Suffice to say they quickly and mysteriously relocate to nearby bushes or ditch.

      They do look like a good source of parts for homemade go carts, and maker stuff.

  • thwy had gone into hibernation for the winter

    The scooters that is

    although there aren't as many pedestrians around at the moment - some of the sidewalks are very slippery. Thats the problem when it gets just above freezing guring the warmest part of the day, and cools down to single digits at night.

    • They don't have "winter" there, you have to go dozens of miles north of SF to find that that sort of phenomenon.

  • Paying for use of infrasructure (Score:3)

    by hwstar ( 35834 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @02:57PM (#57955142)

    If a City wants to allow e-scooters, the e-scooter companies should pay for use of City infrastructure via a permit or licensing mechanism so that the scooters can be placed in designated areas carved out near bus stops and the like and not clutter sidewalks. Any e-scooters not licensed or permitted should be impounded.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      The problem is that riders dump them wherever they want, that's part of the idea. Realistically, the companies can't ensure that the devices will be properly parked nor can they hold their riders accountable for violations since the devices can be moved.

      Dockless seems fatally flawed in this regard. A solution must address compliance by not only the companies but the riders. Scooters and e-bikes are fine, dockless is not.

      • Crime is the answer. Tweekers will learn to extract the batteries and any other slightly valuable parts from an e-scooter in seconds.

        Someone might need to make a custom tool, but that will happen shortly.

        How many e-scooter batteries would it take to make your own electric car? Perhaps out of a junk pius motor, a VW and 1000 scooters you 'found'.

    • Getting permission first screws up their business plan. What are you, some kind of anti-capitalist commie?

  • I toss them off sidewalks (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DogDude ( 805747 ) on Sunday January 13, 2019 @03:47PM (#57955416)
    They're all over my campus. When I encounter one either blocking a sidewalk, or anywhere near a ramp, I toss the fuckers into the bushes/landscaping. They're not mine. They're not the universities. They're not supposed to be there. If anybody else, individual or company, puts anything in the middle of the sidewalk, it's abandoned trash, and as far as I know, anybody can take it. I once saw a blind person walking on a sidewalk and running into one of those things, and I lost my mind.

    See anything abandoned in a sidewalk? It's your moral obligation to get it the fuck out of there for people who can't navigate around them. I've actually gotten good at getting some distance with the fuckers with a single foot under the center of them.

    • If anybody else, individual or company, puts anything in the middle of the sidewalk, it's abandoned trash, and as far as I know, anybody can take it.

      They're taking advantage of the way the law protects property. If you know who something belongs to, you just can't take it. It's illegal to damage it whether you know who it belongs to or not, or whether it's parked on the sidewalk or not. They're not the ones leaving them on the sidewalks, as they put them in designated locations when they put them on the street, so they're not parking them inappropriately either. They're really not breaking any laws, even if what they are doing is causing a negative impa

  • They're banned in some Aus states (Score:3)

    by AbRASiON ( 589899 ) * on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:19PM (#57955774) Journal

    They exceed 10KM/hr on sidewalks, so you simply can't get the things.

    Which is a bit of a shame, I'd like to try one. As annoying as they apparently are, we have a ridiculous insane population boom here (fuelled by the govt) and public transit and roads have become a nightmare (my morning commute has doubled via public transit, simply due to more stops, more starts, more traffic and more people getting on and off the cable car / tram)

    I'd love to jump on a scooter and get to work that way.

    a 2.5mile trip shouldn't take 45 minutes via public transit. (and yes, Americans, I know I'm the lucky one here with such a short commute)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by pz ( 113803 )

      A 2.5 mile trip (which is 4.0 km) should take 40 minutes to walk at a brisk pace.

      The exercise would do you a world of good physically, and not being crammed in the tin-cans of public transportation would do the same psychologically. I bet you could even combine it with stopping at shops that you would otherwise need to take a separate trip for, like a bagful of groceries, the bank, the bottle shop, whathaveyou. Add in an improving audiobook at the same time, rather than using your phone to play the game d

      • Which is what? 10 minutes on a bicycle?
        Or I assume 15 minutes on these darned new fangled scooter electric kick bikes?

  • Is that like when businesses allow their customers to park on the street?

    • Is that like when businesses allow their customers to park on the street?

      *sigh* No.

      Street parking isn't generally an issue in areas with lots of room. Street parking happens when it's illegal or impractical for a business to have a parking lot. In those areas, street parking is pretty clearly defined, with parking rules clearly defined on signs, and frequently with parking meters.

      Pretty much anywhere you're going to street park, the general rules are that you're 1.) not blocking a driveway or fire hydrant, and 2.) have left enough room for other traffic to pass, and 3.) there ar

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ichijo ( 607641 )

        The problem is that the sidewalk is an avenue where "no parking" is just implied.

        Granted, but where do we disagree on whether customers parking on the street is an example of a business appropriating the public commons for profit?

    • The businesses don't allow it. The city does, because businesses need customers, and the city wants to have businesses. Maybe the city should set aside one parking spot per intersection for these things, but expect a payment from the scooter company for the loss of parking available to other citizens. Seems like a reasonable compromise.
  • Now that Boing Boing showed us how to convert the Bird eScooters and other suing the same standard Xi scooter into a stock one sans lockouts and GPS via a $30 circuit board, enterprising individuals can pickup the illegally parked scooters blocking sidewalks and recycle them. Sell them for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a new one and profit while solving a problem for the city and saving them money all the while adding to the local economy.

    • All that's needed is for the city to officially declare an abandoned scooter as litter and post signs all over the city encouraging people to clean up the streets.

  • Surely, the invisible hand of the free market will solve this. Why, let people do what they want and magically they won't leave things lying around and getting in people's way, because free market.

  • We have bike lanes in Arlington, VA, but they follow the traffic on its major one-way streets.

    Idiots on these scooters choose to use the sidewalks instead of the bike lanes to go the wrong way instead of scooting one block over to the street with the bike lane going in the right way.

    These stupid scooters need to go away. I've been clipped more than twice on the sidewalk by idiot scooter users, and they also seem to think that the strict yield-to-pedestrians-in-crosswalk laws we have in Virginia don't apply

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