Google's CEO Thinks Android Users Know How Much Their Phones Are Tracking Them (techcrunch.com) 131
An anonymous reader quotes a report from TechCrunch: Google CEO Sundar Pichai thinks Android users have a good understanding of the volume of data Google collects on them, when they agree to use the Android mobile operating system. The exec, who is testifying today in front of the House Judiciary committee for a hearing entitled "Transparency & Accountability: Examining Google and its Data Collection, Use and Filtering Practices," claimed that users are in control of the information Google has on them. "For Google services, you have a choice of what information is collected, and we make it transparent," Pichai said in response to questioning from Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA).
Google's defense on the data collection front is similar to Facebook's -- that is, Pichai responded that Google provides tools that put users in control. But do they actually use them? "It's really important for us that average users are able to understand it," said Pichai, stating that users do understand the user agreement for Android OS. "We actually ... remind users to do a privacy checkup, and we make it very obvious every month. In fact, in the last 28 days, 160 million users went to their My Account settings, where they can clearly see what information we have -- we actually show it back to them. We give clear toggles, by category, where they can decide whether that information is collected, stored, or -- more importantly -- if they decide to stop using it, we work hard to make it possible for users to take their data with them," he said. When asked if Google could improve its user dashboard and tools to better teach people how to protect their privacy, including turning off data collection and location tracking, Pichai said "there's complexity," but it is "something I do think we can do better." He continued: "We want to simplify it, and make it easier for average users to navigate these settings. It's something we are working on."
Google's defense on the data collection front is similar to Facebook's -- that is, Pichai responded that Google provides tools that put users in control. But do they actually use them? "It's really important for us that average users are able to understand it," said Pichai, stating that users do understand the user agreement for Android OS. "We actually ... remind users to do a privacy checkup, and we make it very obvious every month. In fact, in the last 28 days, 160 million users went to their My Account settings, where they can clearly see what information we have -- we actually show it back to them. We give clear toggles, by category, where they can decide whether that information is collected, stored, or -- more importantly -- if they decide to stop using it, we work hard to make it possible for users to take their data with them," he said. When asked if Google could improve its user dashboard and tools to better teach people how to protect their privacy, including turning off data collection and location tracking, Pichai said "there's complexity," but it is "something I do think we can do better." He continued: "We want to simplify it, and make it easier for average users to navigate these settings. It's something we are working on."
Re: It should be one for one (Score:5, Insightful)
We want to simplify it, and make it easier for average users to navigate these settings. It's something we are working on.
They could start by calling location history 'location history'.
As a Princeton computer scientist and former chief technologist for the Federal Communications Commission's enforcement bureau said [theguardian.com]: “If you're going to allow users to turn off something called ‘location history’, then all the places where you maintain location history should be turned off. That seems like a pretty straightforward position to have.”
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Sure, when you use their services and they agree with your TOS
More to the point (Score:1)
He thinks we're fine with not being able to say "no" in any other way than not owning an Android OS-using phone.
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If you don't attach a Google account to your phone and disable Google's wifi location service, that pretty much excises the Google-related privacy problems from the base OS immediately.
iPhone Slaves on the other hand... (Score:1)
... on the other hand, the Apple fanbois deny that the walled garden is to keep them in and that they're wearing their monitoring bracelet on their wrist.
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Yeah, that evil walled garden stopping Android malware from running coin miners, paypal scams, ad clickjacking, and other wonderful freedoms from the users!
It's not that people DONT understand. (Score:1)
It's more that they just don't care to until something happens, then blame anything and everyone else but themselves.
Re: It's not that people DONT understand. (Score:1)
False.
If you tell me not to spy on you, and I say I'm not spying on you, but then I spy on you, it wasn't you who is wrong or who didn't care.
Deliberately shifting the discussion, are we? (Score:3, Insightful)
And rape victims know they are raped. What's your point?
Doesn't mean they are OK with it! Or that they have much of a choice!
(No, if it means you're a social outcast, you don't have a choice.)
This completely, and I think deliberately, distracts from the real discussion.
That Google is evil for doing the snooping and peeping, and even worse, for arrogantly even acting like it's alright.
When it should, if most people had a say, probably actually be a crime resulting in life in prison for him, just for offering it for sale... even if the terms and conditions (read: code, incomprehensible to humans) say they do it.
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Comparing the service that Google provides to rape is asinine.
Google gives you something in return. Believe it or not, people aren't forced to use Google and generally do so because they like the products. Google lets you control how your data is used and thanks to GDPR everything is opt-in. If you don't want to give them your data, don't click on "I agree".
It's up to you if you take the deal or not. Nothing is forced, unlike rape.
Informed consent (Score:4, Interesting)
Comparing the service that Google provides to rape is asinine.
Disagree. The issue is whether there is adequate informed consent [wikipedia.org]. This requires a clear appreciation and understanding of the facts, consequences, and implications of the action. It is very much akin to rape or at least malpractice if informed consent is not obtained. It's not at all clear that people are in possession of all the facts nor are they presented in a clear and understandable manner. Expecting people to know or suspect there are nuanced negative consequences without considerably effort to inform them is ridiculous
Google gives you something in return. Believe it or not, people aren't forced to use Google and generally do so because they like the products.
A medical quack gives people something in return too. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to allow it. Google is knowingly taking advantage of people's lack of technological sophistication. It's not really a question that a huge percent of the public does not understand the full implications of their actions nor are they being provided adequately clear information and opportunities to remedy this situation.
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Interesting argument, but the difference with Google is that it does in fact offer all of the relevant information and does not set out to deceive. When they ask permission the information is right there, with a summary and direct link to the full policy.
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The only way it could be implemented right is "click this box to pay $100 bucks extra to never ever be tracked by Google." Why is that not an option yet? I guess because either they are bastards, which is possible, or maybe there is no easy button to not get tracked... they have it spread out over 1000 ways ... settings in apps, settings in phone, websites and more websites.
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The educational versions of all those apps don't collect data. It's part of the deal, necessary to get into schools, and a legal requirement for minors to use them in many jurisdictions.
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The educational versions of all those apps don't collect data.
Except when they do. There have even been article posted here over the years of them getting caught.
https://www.wired.com/2015/12/... [wired.com]
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I guess it depends if you believe they made a mistake, or perhaps if you think making a mistake makes them evil.
Rather than argue about their unknowable motivations, do you have any hard proof of intent?
Data rape (Score:2)
The term is "data rape".
Does the average user care? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Does the average user care? (Score:5, Insightful)
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They might not care, but the CEO saying "users have a good understanding of the volume of data Google collects on them" is wrong and misleading.
Exactly.
Re:Does the average user care? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think the average user knows how much, but I also think the average user doesn't care enough to go find out. However, I don't believe that is any fault on Google's part. Without getting into whether Google should collect as much as it does, what it collects and where to find it is available as long as the user actually pays attention and/or cares to find it. They're not hiding it.
Sure there's lots of controls... but probably not a very convenient global "off" switch nor any way to set the default for new options. At least that's been my impression with other data mining products and services, not giving you the choice at all would be bad PR but it's a game of attrition and you're often asked for broad or permanent permissions when you'd really like to make a narrow exception. Google doesn't really want to make opt-out easy and effective, but as the CEO you can't say that out loud. You have to pretend that they are in control and use their lack of altering the defaults as permission, it probably works in the legal sense because it was buried down in an EULA but if you actually started reading the logs back at them I think a lot more people would be concerned.
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There is something close to a global off switch: https://myaccount.google.com/p... [google.com]
If you go through those five or six steps it lets you turn everything off in a few clicks.
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The main problem is that the average user has no idea what can be done with this data. Even CS students are often surprised when you explain some of the implications.
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Liar (Score:5, Informative)
Not only do I think this is disingenuous but he's also failing to point out that Google arbitrarily requires you to give them the whole kit and caboodle of personal data if you want to use certain features. Want to use the Play store? You have to enable location services that Google tracks. Want to use Google maps and actually store maps so you don't download them every time (whether you are on android or not)? You have to sign in and give over all your tracking data. And are there actual legitimate requirements for this? No - Google intentionally moved location services inside of the Play framework, it used to be completely separate and standalone. Do you need to be signed in to download maps to the local device? Of course not. But Google knows people want to use these features on their devices and the force you to give up everything to use them.
Re:Liar (Score:5, Informative)
I would settle for the Maps functionality from Android 2.2, but at some point they started replaced AOSP offerings with proprietary Google offers to integrate and almost demand signing in to enable random features.
It's a good time to make a reminder that there are alternative apps out there. They are inferior, mind you. Maps.me I haven't used, but OsmAnd for F-Droid doesn't require the same level of payments that IIRC the Android version does. It has downloadable state-by-state maps, various configurable options, path logging and not half the onerous requirements that Google Maps enforces (the latter boldly lies about needing location services to run properly). It's clunky, though.
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Want to use Google maps and actually store maps so you don't download them every time (whether you are on android or not)? You have to sign in and give over all your tracking data.
If that is true then please provide some evidence so I can file a GDPR complaint immediately. Seriously, show me the proof and I'll do it and post the complaint reference number back here.
See, under GDPR you have to have opt-in permission to use data. And I opted out of the "location history" stuff, i.e. the tracking. All Google has permission for is to use my current location to provide services and target ads, not to store that information beyond the absolute minimum time required for said services.
And I
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I won't comment on your other claims but, I do know that Google moved location services (as well as many other services) from the OS to Google Play Services in order to make them updatable separate from the OS. We've all seen the complaints about Android fragmentation right? There's a reason that most apps will run on any version of Android newer than 4 or 5 now and that's because of the way Google Play Services works in more recent versions of Android.
You mean the library is upgradeable through play or that it is a part of the Google Play framework? I mean that all location data routes through Play in stock Android. As in, you cannot just turn off location services for all of the Google apps. To use location services at all you have to give your location to Google. This has nothing to do with being an upgradeable library and everything to do with Google removing the ability to restrict location services from Google's own applications. I'm not sure if
It's bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
Any time I try to toggle off data collection in that "My Account" area, the settings miraculously revert as soon as I leave.
Meanwhile, I've never had that problem on iOS. Heck, I'm not sure what other services I've had that issue with (I'm sure FB would be included, except for my lack of interactions with them.) I've heard rumors about Win10, but again...
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Any time I try to toggle off data collection in that "My Account" area, the settings miraculously revert as soon as I leave.
Can you please double-check this, and if you confirm it, contact me? I'll file a bug and it will get fixed. This is definitely not something that should be happening.
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It does not happen. I track that setting all the time and it never happened to me. I do not know if google collects any data that it does not show to me in My Account but when settings are turned off, it does not show any data collected. When I had iPhone I also did not know if any data was collected by Apple and Apple did not show me what they did or did not collect.
It is explained in detail by following the links on this page:
https://www.apple.com/privacy/ [apple.com]
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I'll file a bug and it will get fixed.
Naivete is only endearing in youth.
Not naivete at all. I've filed similar bugs and seen the response. This would be taken as a very serious bug in Google. If the responsible team didn't prioritize it, all I'd have to do is CC someone on the privacy working group (PWG) and it would immediately get top priority. You know how people jump in your company when the legal department demands something? PWG has about as much pull as legal in Google.
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If anyone doubts this then consider that they have a legal responsibility to make sure that button works in the EU. Otherwise it's a GDPR violation and potential fine of 2% of global turnover, currently about $2.5 billion.
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If anyone doubts this then consider that they have a legal responsibility to make sure that button works in the EU. Otherwise it's a GDPR violation and potential fine of 2% of global turnover, currently about $2.5 billion.
While this is true, the Google PWG's existence and influence pre-dates GDPR considerably.
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The privacy controls work for me. What phone do you have? Are you running the stock OS or a 3rd party ROM?
Uh, yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
Regardless of what he believes, that's what he's going to tell the committee. It's not like he's going to tell them, "We believe the average user has no idea how much information we're squirrelling away. We're essentially committing fraud here."
Now I get it (Score:2)
Google users are in control :) (Score:1)
It is right that Google users are in control of their privacy.
You can dig into the Android account settings, and disable most of the privacy intrusion collection that Google is doing. Just make sure to confirm each time in the link that is outside the box, you know, the one that isn't shown by default unless you scroll all the way down. Hitting "back" won't do it. Also make sure to check these settings every other day, in case they revert back or something new is added.
In case this was not done beforehan
Sundar you clueless fjnork! (Score:3)
Ok. ramp down. off the soapbox. all better now.
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He is just regurgitating what the Google PsyOps, aeh, I mean "Marketing", team cooked up.
Ignorant or lying? I suspect lying. (Score:3)
Sundar you miserable geek. Get out of the f**king petri dish and talk to average users, not the techno-incestuous gang you hang out with, but actual people who don't write code or configure servers.
Why not just use the much more likely explanation that he is lying and he knows it. He's looking for plausible deniability. The guy is smart so I don't really buy the argument that he's THAT out of touch with reality. Simple fact is that Google is doing what is in Google's financial interest and tracking you benefits Google rather a lot. They have to pretend they care about the issue but just follow the money trail to see what they really care about.
Give me a dumb phone (Score:3)
I'm starting to wonder how dumb it is to have a smart phone. Seriously whats the point anymore? So that it makes it easier for govt to spy on us and companies to advertise to us.
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"Smartphone" ... Yeah, you look real smart.
They look like addicts and since we know how the brain reacts to them we know it's true.
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"The best thing is, the targets buy the surveillance devices themselves!" Done remember who said it, but I think it was somebody from the NSA.
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I remember that. Called the iPhone users zombies who pay for their own surveillance. Sounds to me we're held in contempt because we trust our services to act on our behalf.
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Ah, right! This was on some of the slide-sets leaked from the NSA.
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So you think a dumb phone would fix the tracking problem? Good luck!
Cell towers still track your every move.
Merchants still tie your credit or debit card number to every transaction, and share promiscuously with each other.
You probably still have a computer, which you use to browse the Web. Every move you make is tracked there too.
Yes, those merchants can tie your purchase history to your browser activity.
It doesn't matter if you "deleted facebook." They can still track you.
So why NOT use a smart phone? You
Google Speak (Score:2)
users (Score:5, Insightful)
Google CEO Sundar Pichai thinks Android users have a good understanding of the volume of data Google collects on them,
Android users are people, and the vast majority of people have jobs outside IT. Normal people don't even know the difference between 2G, 3G and 4G except that the higher numbers mean "faster". They also couldn't list the sensors that their phone contains, and barely understand what information the OS has available at all. They know that GPS has something to do with maps, but that's it. They are almost certainly not aware that their phone is constantly doing data transfers in the background nor do they have any idea what data is being exchanged.
This is just the other version of the usual "blame the user" bullshit. We blame the user for being stupid and making mistakes, then we turn around and blame the user for knowing everything so its not our fault, again. Can't have it both ways.
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Android does ask you to agree to all that stuff, and it is legally required to, in fairly simple and easy to understand language when you first turn it on.
I'm sure people know that the data is being collected, what they tend not to do is read the detail of the privacy policy and understand how it gets used.
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20 years of information security experience tell me that users barely read the text on the buttons on such dialogs, and only to figure out which one they need to press so it goes away.
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So what is the solution to users not reading the things they agree to, even when those things are literally one or two short and clear sentences?
If we ban such agreements then a lot of free services go away. I think a lot of people would be upset about that.
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If I had a simple, straightforward solution, I would've patented it and be rich. So I can't say. But it's a fact that the obnoxious confirmation dialogs are not read.
Lies and word-twisting (Score:3)
If they really wanted people to understand the Android user "agreement", it would be short, concise and clear.
If they really wanted people to adjust their tracking and data collection, it would be (1) opt-in, (2) much more visible, and (3) devastating to Google's business.
I doubt that any settings you may be able to adjust have any effect on what they collect and analyze. It may adjust how some of it is presented to *you* though.
Google itself is even a secondary problem (Score:2)
The main problem remains the various manufacturers, loading the device with crapware you can neither uninstall nor disable that is even worse in their privacy invasion than Google ever could be. If you want to create a privacy protection law, force manufacturers to clearly state in no uncertain terms what shit they latch onto the system that you can't remove without rooting the device and effectively throw anything resembling warranty into the toilet.
I honestly don't know what's worse, too (Score:2)
Them simply lying to the house judiciary committee without even thinking twice, or me knowing that they'll get away with it.
Research show otherwise (Score:3)
Core types he recognises are:
- Provided
- Observed
- Derived
- Inferred
When most people think about 'their data', they don't think beyond the 'provided' type.
http://informationaccountabili... [informatio...bility.org]
Android without GApps (Score:2)
I'm not sure if I'm better off, but I'd like to think that without the GApps package on my LineageOS phone that I'm somewhat insulated from a lot of this crap.
Do you know how Sheikh Yaseen died? (Score:2)
Sheikh Yaseen was very well known spiritual leader of Hamas on West bank. His schedule of going to the prayer was very well known for many years. Finally, Israelis decided to take him out. It was very easy for them.
My point is that Sheikh Yaseen did not give a damn about enemy knowing his position.
Victim blaming (Score:2)
Sorry, but that's what it is.
With Apologies to Douglas Adams (Score:5, Insightful)
“But the plans were on display”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
Something's Fishy in Denmark (Score:2)
"We actually ... remind users to do a privacy checkup, and we make it very obvious every month. In fact, in the last 28 days, 160 million users went to their My Account settings,
Wait... how do they know we "went to [our] My Account settings" unless Google is spying on all their users? This attempt at self-exoneration sounds more like an admission of guilt to me.
We know, we just don't think there's a way out (Score:2)
Businesses have been tracking us since before the smart phone. They've just gotten better at it.
Basically, we swim in a sea of surveillance. Take or leave the smart phone, it doesn't matter. They track every Web page, every purchase. You're on camera everywhere you go.
So, people think, what's the point of fighting it? What good is fighting it going to do anyway?
FTFY (Score:2)
Google's CEO Doesn't Give a Shit if Android Users Know How Much Their Phones Are Tracking Them