Life In the Spanish City That Banned Cars (theguardian.com) 224
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via The Guardian: People don't shout in Pontevedra -- or they shout less. With all but the most essential traffic banished, there are no revving engines or honking horns, no metallic snarl of motorbikes or the roar of people trying make themselves heard above the din -- none of the usual soundtrack of a Spanish city. What you hear in the street instead are the tweeting of birds in the camellias, the tinkle of coffee spoons and the sound of human voices. Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic.
"Listen," says the mayor, opening the windows of his office. From the street below rises the sound of human voices. "Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here." Miguel Anxo Fernandez Lores has been mayor of the Galician city since 1999. His philosophy is simple: owning a car doesn't give you the right to occupy the public space. "How can it be that the elderly or children aren't able to use the street because of cars?" asks Cesar Mosquera, the city's head of infrastructures. "How can it be that private property -- the car -- occupies the public space?" Lores became mayor after 12 years in opposition, and within a month had pedestrianized all 300,000 sq m of the medieval centre, paving the streets with granite flagstones. "The historical center was dead," Lores says. "There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone. It was a city in decline, polluted, and there were a lot of traffic accidents. It was stagnant. Most people who had a chance to leave did so. At first we thought of improving traffic conditions but couldn't come up with a workable plan. Instead we decided to take back the public space for the residents and to do this we decided to get rid of cars."
Some of the benefits mentioned in the report include less traffic accidents and traffic-related deaths, and decreased CO2 emissions (70%). "Also, withholding planning permission for big shopping centers has meant that small businesses -- which elsewhere have been unable to withstand Spain's prolonged economic crisis -- have managed to stay afloat," reports The Guardian.
"Listen," says the mayor, opening the windows of his office. From the street below rises the sound of human voices. "Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here." Miguel Anxo Fernandez Lores has been mayor of the Galician city since 1999. His philosophy is simple: owning a car doesn't give you the right to occupy the public space. "How can it be that the elderly or children aren't able to use the street because of cars?" asks Cesar Mosquera, the city's head of infrastructures. "How can it be that private property -- the car -- occupies the public space?" Lores became mayor after 12 years in opposition, and within a month had pedestrianized all 300,000 sq m of the medieval centre, paving the streets with granite flagstones. "The historical center was dead," Lores says. "There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone. It was a city in decline, polluted, and there were a lot of traffic accidents. It was stagnant. Most people who had a chance to leave did so. At first we thought of improving traffic conditions but couldn't come up with a workable plan. Instead we decided to take back the public space for the residents and to do this we decided to get rid of cars."
Some of the benefits mentioned in the report include less traffic accidents and traffic-related deaths, and decreased CO2 emissions (70%). "Also, withholding planning permission for big shopping centers has meant that small businesses -- which elsewhere have been unable to withstand Spain's prolonged economic crisis -- have managed to stay afloat," reports The Guardian.
Hola and Primer comentario mis señoritas (Score:3, Funny)
nailed it
Re:Hola and Primer comentario mis señoritas (Score:5, Informative)
3. HyperLoop: SF is 83% going to get the HyperLoop according to sources and when this happens you can be almost anywhere in the Bay Area in under 15 minutes. With stops.
The hyperloop just isn't going to happen. Get over it.
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Which idiots said that? Given the Metropolitan Railway already existed showing that underground railways were in fact possible with the materials and engineering of the day.
Unlike trying to build the worlds biggest (by FAR) vacuum chamber with moving parts and people in those parts and of course, which hasn't been demonstrated as actually possible with current materials and engineering.
15 minutes plus extras (Score:3)
you can be almost anywhere in the Bay Area in under 15 minutes. With stops.
15 minutes transportation time. 2 hours to get through security and another hour to find some to park near the hyperloop station
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1. Golden Gate tolls are going to go to about ~$50...less commuters with these prices
Will that be each way or both ways?
Maybe I'll move to Spain (Score:3)
While there are many more, and more important, things to consider; Pontevedra just made my list of cities that I might like to call home one day.
The whole centre city is the size of a US Mall (Score:5, Funny)
The whole city is the size of a typical shopping mall. There are no cars inside shopping malls - for the same reason.
Re: The whole centre city is the size of a US Mall (Score:5, Insightful)
You have no idea. I lived in Spain for 8 years. Pontevedra isn't an outlier, most Spanish towns are already heavily pedestrianised and this was just the final step. This is the way modern towns and cities in the EU in general are going. Cars in town and city centres are just a waste of space and people's time.
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I visit Spain often and I have to agree. The way cities are managing car / pedestrian interaction is incredible and varied. Lots of town planers are currently looking to Barcelona for their trial of the superblock concept:
https://www.theguardian.com/ci... [theguardian.com] which effectively eliminates thoroughfare on many roads.
Re:Maybe I'll move to Spain (Score:5, Interesting)
While there are many more, and more important, things to consider; Pontevedra just made my list of cities that I might like to call home one day.
Not to take away anything from the city, but we have suburbs larger than Pontevedra (which makes its social experiment possible.)
If you can afford to move and live there, by all means. I just hope you are paying attention to job prospects in such a small city with double digit unemployment rate, with the Spaniard economy experiencing a lot of hurting.
It would be a nice place for retirement (though not necessarily the cheapest.)
Why not Superblocks? (Score:3)
While there are many more, and more important, things to consider; Pontevedra just made my list of cities that I might like to call home one day.
Not to take away anything from the city, but we have suburbs larger than Pontevedra (which makes its social experiment possible.)
If you can afford to move and live there, by all means. I just hope you are paying attention to job prospects in such a small city with double digit unemployment rate, with the Spaniard economy experiencing a lot of hurting.
It would be a nice place for retirement (though not necessarily the cheapest.)
No need to go that far away - probably most of the benefits of going car free can be had via superblocks - https://www.theguardian.com/ci... [theguardian.com]
I always thought being able to drive directly into my house garage was a massive luxury with clear exernalities like road noise, traffic danger and increased pollution, and honestly if I could instead park away from my house and had to walk there to take my parked car (or more likely, public transit or taxi), I'd consider it a good tradeoff (esp. considering kids would
Re:Maybe I'll move to Spain (Score:4)
A city with out cars. Sounds like wonderful place to live. I lived outside SF, in Menlo Park, for a year. I didn't own a car during that time. Most things I needed was with in walking distance, and the things that where not where a train ride away. Something that we have tossed by the way side is that if cities are designed properly cars are not needed.
I read a long time about about a town that was banning cars and legalizing electric golf carts. In down town Memphis we have these electric scooters everywhere. Rent one and off you go. Park it anywhere. My daughter and I where driving in down town yesterday. We saw a guy rent one of these scooters. When we got where we where going, and parked, that same guy came riding through the intersection. My point is even though I had the faster transportation, the guy on the scooter got to the same spot at about the same time.
What about repair and maintenance people? (Score:2)
I spent several years fixing copiers and printers. I have also worked in the HVAC industry. When I see these car free articles my first though is, "what about maintenance and repair?"
Cobblers (Score:2)
When I see these car free articles my first though is, "what about maintenance and repair?"
In a pedestrianized city? You are clearly talking a load of old cobblers.
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I read a long time about about a town that was banning cars and legalizing electric golf carts. In down town Memphis we have these electric scooters everywhere.
Golf carts are great, scooters not so much. Unless all your daycare/groceries/parks were really close the need to shuttle your kids & stuff around is a big problem.
Though to be honest if scooters existed and our culture was more like Japan with respect to school-age kids free to roam, we might just have a sustainable revolution on our hands.
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We really should build a wall to keep out bad hombres like you people.
Don't forget to make him pay for it.
So just the city Centre ... big deal... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So just the city Centre ... big deal... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, looking at the map [openstreetmap.org] the pedestrian zone is about as big as one would expect for a European city of this size (c.f.Freiburg [openstreetmap.org]).
Though Pontevedra has the additional disadvantage of having destroyed or having had to destroy their trams system (as was common in Western Europe)
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Not just Europe - this is common in the US. Every place I've lived has at least experimented with closing off streets to regular traffic to create pedestrian malls. Most people are probably familiar with Broadway by Times Square, for instance. In Philly in the 90s they tried shutting Chestnut St. to traffic but it was a disaster for the businesses. Savannah, Georgia has a pedestrian mall. All of these are or were larger than the little 0.12 sq mile area detailed in this article.
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The big deal is making the change. If successful there is every reason to boast about it, no matter how many other examples there are of similar success.
I see a parallel with the recent community effort to deprecate rudeness at the center of the Linux Community, that is, the Linux Kernel Mailing List. At first there is a lot of shouting from people who regard rudeness as their right. That passes, and everybody benefits. Well, we haven't seen the last part yet but it's rather obvious it's coming.
what the fucking fuck ?? (Score:2)
Crocodiles of Children (Score:3)
Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic.
Is that really the correct group name for children? A crocodile of children?
Re:Crocodiles of Children (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting, had to look that up:
2 chiefly British : a line of people (such as schoolchildren) usually walking in pairs
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Interesting, had to look that up:
2 chiefly British : a line of people (such as schoolchildren) usually walking in pairs
Interesting indeed- I am British and spent my life up unto my teen years in the UK (when my various migrations began); I had either forgot that phrase, or it is regional, or obscure.
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Especially when at a zebra crossing.
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Teachers herd crocodiles of small children across town without the constant fear that one of them will stray into traffic.
Is that really the correct group name for children? A crocodile of children?
I've heard the terms "a gaggle of children" or a "flock" but I've never heard the term crocodile. But maybe it's used to refer to the snake like form that the groups take when following the teacher...
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I've heard the terms "a gaggle of children" or a "flock" but I've never heard the term crocodile. But maybe it's used to refer to the snake like form that the groups take when following the teacher...
"Crocodile" is a fun expression in the language, Esperanto too. Crocodile is used as a verb in that language and means to talk in your native tongue rather than in Esperanto.
Crocodiling is frowned upon at Esperanto meet-ups.
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Would you prefer bananas of children ? Snakes of children ? Cluster of children ? Gaggle ?
I think I would have gone with "rabble".
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A stickiness of children*.
*Writing this while sitting at a coffee shop table previously occupied by some little kid.
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I certainly hope we don't end up borrowing the term for a group of crows. That would get awkward, fast.
Yeah ... not sure that's going to work here (Score:2)
There were a lot of drugs, it was full of cars -- it was a marginal zone.
Not sure that "pedestrianizing" street corners here is going to reduce drugs.
Re:Yeah ... not sure that's going to work here (Score:5, Funny)
The numbers don't lie... (Score:3)
"Before I became mayor 14,000 cars passed along this street every day. More cars passed through the city in a day than there are people living here."
So this is a city of less than 14,000 people. That's a good size for this experiment.
Now would this work for some of Manhattan? Hell yeah. Brooklyn? Maybe. LA, Phoenix? Nope. For the right size and density yes.
My only question is how those adorable coffee shops get their supplies daily. Hand trucks? Burros? So a mostly-ban would be probably just as useful as a total ban, and restricting deliveries to very early morning or late night only disturbs the sleep of residents. Small price to pay. \s.
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By your logic, in NYC more than 8.5 million cars pass the street next to the mayor's office daily. While I have never been to NYC, I find that hard to believe.
Pontevedra has over 80k inhabitants. Apparently those over 80k cars did not all use the street next to the mayor's office.
Re: The numbers don't lie... (Score:2)
You're not asking me, right?
I was quoting the article...
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My only question is how those adorable coffee shops get their supplies daily.
From TFS: "With all but the most essential traffic banished,"
Take a look at the picture accompanying that article. There's a car parked on that street. Probably by special permit.
This isn't a bad idea, particularly in 'historic' towns, i.e. not designed with off-street car parking. Take a look at some videos of the absolute shit that is parking in old European cities. People will actually shove other people's parked cars to make room for their own.
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Which makes me wonder...does the mayor of this town have a special permit?
IOW, does the "no cars" rule only apply to the peons?
Re: The numbers don't lie... (Score:2)
For most of America population density equates to public transportation availability and effectiveness. It shouldn't be that way but it is.
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crocodiles of small children (Score:2)
what the fuck is a crocodile of small children? That's gotta be a mistranslation thing. Anyway, let's all not teach our children about the dangers of roads so they can just walk out into traffic when they're older and move away I guess.
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Nope, its not a translation problem, its a line of children, 2 by 2, led by teacher(s) to get from one place to another
WTF is the etymology of calling two rows of children a crocodile? Is that the easiest formation in which you can march them into a swamp to be eaten?
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A shrewdness of monkeys
A business of ferrets
A conspiracy of lemurs
A shadow of jaguars
An unkindness of ravens
A risk of lobsters
An audience of squid
I kid you not...
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I just use "bunch" to describe all of those.
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Nope, its not a translation problem, its a line of children, 2 by 2, led by teacher(s) to get from one place to another
WTF is the etymology of calling two rows of children a crocodile? Is that the easiest formation in which you can march them into a swamp to be eaten?
A single file queue of people is referred to as a snake. Stands that a double file line would be something also reptilian, larger, and not quite as agile.
shout? (Score:2)
People don't shout in Pontevedra -- or they shout less
Just how loud are cars in Spain?
Car compared with motorbike noise ( was Re:shout?) (Score:2)
Car engines are not the noise issue.
Cars in Spain are as loud as anywhere else: not very, unless modified by the owner to make more noise than it did when it left the manufacturer.
Motorbikes and scooters in Spain are as loud as anywhere else in Europe: loud or very loud. In particular, small motorbikes are very much louder than cars.
I strongly suspect that the decrease in ambient noise volume is from two things, neither of them being car engines:
Removing the Spanish drivers and their horn buttons from the t
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Just how loud are cars in Spain?
Apparently their right-of-way arbitration involves use of the horns. Constantly.
Might work for their situation, but (Score:2)
If they really had 14,000 cars or so traveling through there daily, where did all that traffic go? Surely it wasn't all local traffic. I have to assume his move to ban cars from passing through just increased the traffic in surrounding areas, as people were forced to detour around it.
This doesn't seem like a very workable plan for many cities. He might get away with it as long as he's a lone exception to the rule. But as soon as you have a few adjacent cities trying to pull it off, you're going to create s
Other cities like Florence (Score:3)
We visited Florence once and found it much more pleasant as a pedestrian tourist because of their traffic restrictions.
https://www.visitflorence.com/... [visitflorence.com]
Perfect for electric scooters, then! (Score:2)
They're quiet, not really a car or motorcycle... Hrmmm, seems like Bird should suddenly show up and take over! ;)
Just one problem... (Score:2)
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If you can't physically lift your date, either you are very weak or she is very large...
Gross noise polluters (Score:2)
>"With all but the most essential traffic banished, there are no revving engines or honking horns, no metallic snarl of motorbikes or the roar of people trying make themselves heard above the din -"
And banning motor vehicles is way overkill. A modern, in-spec, unaltered car or motorcycle makes very little noise. I would say 90% of typical vehicle noise comes from illegally modified exhaust systems, ancient and/or very poorly maintained vehicles, modified stereo sound systems with huge speakers/amps, an
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After all, with a ban on cars must come a significant reduction in taxation.
Not really. Without cars, more residents will shop in town for the convenience rather than driving out to the big box stores in the suburbs. Prices tend to be higher due to the reduction in competition, so tax revenues don't suffer.
I feel sorry for the poor people who get stuck shopping in pricier town shops. Seattle is trying this sort of thing (by eliminating parking) in some urban village areas. The unwritten message is, "Poor people GTFO. We want rich hipsters here. The rest of you move to Renton."
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Poor people don't drive, silly!
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Poor people don't drive
They park more often than not, gas prices being what the are. But in many places, people will lose their housing before they give up a vehicle. It might seem like false economics, but when you get booted out of a rental, you can still sleep in your car. Seattle recently lost a case* where they towed a man's pickup truck. The guy won the court case which stated that his truck, being his residence, was protected by the state's homestead law.
Go to a few auto/DIY discussion groups and you will find numerous pe
ORLY? Going non-car isn't free either. (Score:2)
The city's expenditures should be much lower since most car haters suggest a huge portion of city revenue goes to funding cars. If you're correct, the city might be able to eliminate all forms of taxation except sales tax
ORLY? Near the end of the quoted part of TFA we find:
That was in 1999. They granite-paved more than 17 square kilomet
Oops. Not that big. (Score:2)
Oops. Slipped a decimal point - by more than one. (Should have used a calculator.) It's only a little over half a square kilometer., not 17+
Still,crash-programming a granite repaving of half a square kilometer isn't cheap, either.
Re:Haha - say hello (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm trying to understand how this works. They make it sound like there's no vehicles of any kind. Pontevedra is 118,3 km, equivalent to a square 10,9 kilometers on a side. Do people walk 5km or so to get into town? Even the elderly and disabled and infirm? And if they buy something in town, walk back hauling that? Even things like furniture? Shops in town, stocked by... 5km hike with a handcart? Can someone explain to me how exactly this works?
ED: Aha, just read the article:
Not the whole city of ~80k people, just 1/394th of the city. 0,3km^2. Just a big pedestrian mall, really.
Why is this news?
Re:Haha - say hello (Score:5, Interesting)
Even the "car-free zone" isn't actually completely car-free. E.g.:
They haven't talked about stocking shops, but if they're carving out exceptions like that, then I imagine vehicles for stocking shops also get exceptions.
There's also the obvious implications of the scheme:
Because, of course, people drive to it, then walk around in it, then drive home.
Re:Haha - say hello (Score:4, Informative)
Pedestrianized zones in city centers are common across Europe. It's typical to see 'loading hours' in the early morning when delivery trucks and garbage collection can roam. Emergency vehicles and police tend to get a free pass so the roads need to be passable.
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Not the whole city of ~80k people, just 1/394th of the city. 0,3km^2. Just a big pedestrian mall, really.
Why is this news?
If you look around with Google Street View [google.com] at what I assume is the proper location you can see a few delivery and other construction vehicles, but otherwise it's a lot of foot traffic.
The one thing I'm curious about is residents, if the city centre is all tourist and business than you can make do with foot traffic. But do residents with cars need to park outside the boundaries?
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In Groningen, in the netherlands, they did something similar a *long* time ago. You can drive your car into the medieval center, but you can't drive *through*. The city center is divided into 4 quadrants, and you can't get from one quadrant to another without first going to the edge. Also there's hardly any parking.space inside. There are cars in the city, but not many.
Still has the same problem of extra busy edges, but still I think it's a success.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkeerscirculatieplan_Gron
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According to the map, an average American mall has more area than where the cars are not allowed.
I know some people are trying to bring back the mall+residential concept here in order to keep malls from dying. The difference here is that Pontevedra is the city center instead of the middle of fucking nowhere.
This would make sense for any city that has never been rebuilt since the invention of cars. But it doesn't make for a useful model on existing major cities.
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You're basically bringing up the big problem with the American mall. A lot of American malls are named "Blahblah Village" or "Blahblah Town Square" -- but what is a village or town without RESIDENTS? American malls are basically hamlets without the "ham" (in this case, they etymology of "ham" being a cognate for "home").
If you stack apartment buildings on top of a shopping mall, you get a traditional walkable village with the added benefit of climate control. Your mall will now never become a dead mall beca
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A common misconception is the idea that those pregnancies in other countries are "unplanned". In most human cultures (and in most species), maximizing offspring is a good thing -- it increases the survivability of your species/race/culture/family. It's only in certain very wealthy cultures where the value of the individual has eclipsed the value of a family that people no longer want to reproduce. Even then in these wealthy cultures, many older individuals wind up spiraling into depression because they don'
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Pontevedra is 118,3 km, equivalent to a square 10,9 kilometers on a side. Do people walk 5km or so to get into town? Even the elderly and disabled and infirm?
You don't have to walk 5km to get to town because you're already in town when you're at the walking only zone.
Re:good story destroyed by CO2 (Score:5, Funny)
By the way less CO2, is less food for the trees...
Wow, how on earth did trees survive before we built cars, then!?
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Blame it on Smokey, not climate (Score:2)
The out-of-control fire is because of fire prevention; fire prevention that led to lots and lots of burnable stuff all over the place. Had there been ordinary small forest fires every few years, this wouldn't have happened.
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All five of the warmest five years on record in my area have been since 2012. The fact that we're experiencing an extreme drought is not a coincidence. This area would not be catching fire, especially in September, in a year when we had a remotely normal climate.
Facts are stubborn things. You can stand outside at noon in the noon and deny the sun exists - "no, there is no radiation, or at very least not solar radiation, you know nothing about radiation, get over it" - but you will still get burned.
There can
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Increased CO2 boosts crop yields, but reduces the nutrition level, for a net loss.
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I don't eat trees, and we don't have any giraffes in my neighborhood.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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I've lived both places, too.
This sort of plan could work very well in the US. I wouldn't mind parking on a perimeter and having a walk, even in -10F winters. I like to support local businesses because they're my neighbors, my community, and I don't have to deal with rotten online customer "support". The big boxes hold only price/selection as an advantage. I'd rather the profits go locally.
It's nice to sit in front of a family owned restaurant on a quiet day when the trucks aren't belching smoke, the coal-ro
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Industry in general can't work without road access. If it's not trucks, then it'll need to be rail. The kind of city you envision is only suitable for service industries and consumer businesses. That means jobs will be outside the city's boundaries (if they exist at all), and people will need to commute out to get to work (probably with a car).
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IN all of the pedestrian zones I've seen across the continent in the EU and the US and Canada, trucks still get through. They have to. Even in Istanbul.
Commute? Take a train or bus. People in many parts of the world don't consider buses to be creepy. They're clean, run on time, are inexpensive, and are fairly well planned.
Pedestrian zones can be large or small. I wish there were more. Supply chain issues can be dealt with easily and readily. Visit some to understand how logistics work, and what the benefit
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Thank you for your privilege.
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You should join us, oh holy, revered maker of moolah. We shall sprinkle rose petals upon your path to the bus stop, and shall stop our awful flatulence so that your journey will be pleasant. May the heavens shine upon you. We are unworthy of your tax dollars. I'm so sorry to have disturbed you with my miniscule commentary. Be blessed, oh rich one! Be blessed!
Re: I can see this working for Spain (Score:2)
No thanks sweetheart, but I do appreciate you reducing your quality of life. Makes it easier for people like me to enjoy more creature comforts!
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1. Don't walk in the winter, or live nearby. Or move south.
2. Order online what you can't find. This is easy in most places.
3. Do stay inside if you want. That fresh air stuff is deadly.
4. If the sounds of nature don't enthuse you, do indeed stay inside. To me, they mean the environment's healthy. That's good for you in both direct and indirect ways.
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Ditches wouldn't work because of all the underground infrastructure. However, leaving the ground level to cars and building a network of elevated walkways into 2nd floor storefronts would work. Moving the cars up isn't ideal because then the pedestrians no longer have natural light, not to mention it's more expensive to put the heavier thing on a level above the lighter thing.
Each city block would have an elevator. To prevent the obvious problems with that, there should also be a restroom next to said el
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I'm converting my Lincoln Continental over to Clean Coal.
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Go for it, but you'll have to invade on foot. And be sure to get a cafe latte while you're there.