Sweden Tries To Halt Its March To Total Cashlessness (bloomberg.com) 332
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: A key committee of Swedish lawmakers wants to force the country's biggest banks to handle cash in an effort to halt the nation's march toward complete cashlessness. Parliament's Riksbank committee, which is in the process of reviewing the central bank law, proposed making it mandatory for banks to offer cash withdrawals and handle daily receipts. The requirement would apply to banks that provide checking accounts and have more than 70 billion kronor ($8 billion) in deposits from the Swedish public, according to a report.
The lawmakers said there needs to be "reasonable access to those services in all of Sweden," and that 99 percent of Swedes should have a maximum distance of 25 kilometers (16 miles) to the nearest cash withdrawal. The requirement doesn't state how banks should offer those services, and lenders can choose whether to use a third party, machines or over-the-counter services. The move is a response to Sweden's rapid transformation as it becomes one of the most cashless societies in the world. That's led to concerns that some people are finding it increasingly difficult to cope without access to mobile phones or bank cards. There are also fears around what would happen if the digital payments systems suddenly crashed.
The lawmakers said there needs to be "reasonable access to those services in all of Sweden," and that 99 percent of Swedes should have a maximum distance of 25 kilometers (16 miles) to the nearest cash withdrawal. The requirement doesn't state how banks should offer those services, and lenders can choose whether to use a third party, machines or over-the-counter services. The move is a response to Sweden's rapid transformation as it becomes one of the most cashless societies in the world. That's led to concerns that some people are finding it increasingly difficult to cope without access to mobile phones or bank cards. There are also fears around what would happen if the digital payments systems suddenly crashed.
What's the plan when the banks go dark? (Score:5, Interesting)
Less than month ago Sweden told its people to prepare for disasters, including possible war with Russia [globalnews.ca]. One of the first thing the Ruskies will do is cyber attacks on infrastructure, which includes the financial system.
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Followed, very quickly, by a full military attack, at which point popping down the shops for some haribos and milk is probably off the cards.
The leading Swedish cashless app just got sold (Score:3, Interesting)
The leading (near monopoly) Swedish cashless app just got sold to foreigners. Very much time to revert to cash if you don't want your economy held to ransom by incremental fee increases.
Re:The leading Swedish cashless app just got sold (Score:5, Informative)
Not true, the leading app would be Swish ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ) and that is owned jointly by the large nordic banks. It has not been sold.
Dear BeauHD (Score:4, Insightful)
Please google Digital Equipment Corporation.
What about? (Score:3)
The shirt on my back... (Score:2)
I rather of like the idea that if one day I found myself in a ditch with nothing but the shirt on my back that I could actually rebuild my life. That is, wander about a bit and find some casual work on a farm, building site or some such and collect some cash* at the end of the day. Then spend said cash to get some sort of accommodation and food.
I understand the farmer could pop down the local convenience shop and get a pre-paid card for me to pay me, but realistically, they won't as it's not worth their whi
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You sound like me about 20 years ago.
The space under Pont Neuf is surprisingly comfortable, if you can convince the local Romani to let you stay there.
Privacy and Freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
Without cash, we are forced to compromise our privacy. Want to buy a birthday gift for a loved one that cannot be traced? Want to make a donation to a cause you care about, but do so anonymously? What to give something to that homeless person so they can get a hot meal? You need cash for all of these things.
Without cash, we are forced to compromise our freedom. [ And yes, I know this is a large chunk of "The Net", but it doesn't make it less true]. Want to be able to function in the face of a technological meltdown at your bank? [ Just look at what has just been happening to TSB customers in the UK recently ].
Any attempt to take away cash is an attempt to take away both privacy and freedom. It is the beginning of a slippery slope that leads to a very dark place indeed...
Why the DEC logo? (Score:4, Informative)
Millenials these days... The "DIGITAL" logo atop the story is the logo of a corporation called DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation), who made PDPs and VAXen computers, and Alpha processors. Get off my lawn, and get your history straight!
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Re:Check it (Score:5, Informative)
Nobody in Sweden has written a cheque in at least 20 years. The banks here cannot even process them any more, basically.
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Re:Check it (Score:5, Informative)
Huh? How do you give someone (not a business) a large amount of money ? Say for renting a vacation place ? Even more so, how do you give a warranty cheque, you know, the kind that you can tear up at the end ?
The same way you do it all of the civilized world, with a bank transfer. Why write cheques? Most people under 60 have ever had a checking account outside of the US, because the rest of the world is not stuck with WW2 banking technology.
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Actually, it is quite a bit more than just that. Due to AML regulations and other things, cheques have to be verified and this process can take several weeks. Last time I personally cashed a cheque was when I received a tax refund from the IRS in 2013. It took my bank 4 weeks to clear it and it cost me about $50. So, while yes they can process cheques, they don't want to because of all the work involved.
Re: Check it (Score:2)
Holy s*** are cheques that slow or do you/the IRS youse a crappy bank, or is it a combo? And why does the irs not just simply depossit what they owe you into your a bank account of your choosing? It might be wrong for me to speculste, but might this jus be anotherbexample uf the US not realy keepinhg up with the times, in poth Sweden and borway (and my guess is the most of rest of western europe) prople get refund deposeted directly, what makes this so hard in the us? Hmm Iâ(TM)ve heard a roumer thst
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The IRS also won't do DD for previous-year filings. I have no idea, why not, though. When I got my refund check, I used a currency exchange which deposited the amount directly in my local account. I don't know if they had to sit on the check until it cleared, but I had my money in a couple hours.
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Something to confound the clueless with.
You can go back to watching the Kardashians now.
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I think it is something similar and related to a "check"....
I've often used a check book to write a check, but I've never heard of a cheque book before...?
I guess another one of those unique European misspellings.
Re: Check it (Score:2)
Allmost no one in sweedn has a cheque. Book anymore, I suspect it is due to the cost of using said cheques and the fac that any place you mght want to use them (with the posibuility of the local bank branch) probably had not seen a cheque in years and somost if not all emploees probably has little to no idea how to deal with them, another issue is that the pos probably dose not have sn easely accesable way to register a cheque payment
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This wasn't just any local branch, it was Nordea's main office on Sveavägen in downtown Stockholm.
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You evidently missed my point, then, which was: This wasn't some kid fresh out of school in Luleå, it was one of the managers at the bank's largest customer-facing office in the nation's capital.
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and how do merchants verify funds when accepting them?
That is an extremely recent innovation. Merchants accepted cheques for a century prior to that without any such system.
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Merchants accepted cheques for a century prior to that without any such system.
Sure, but only because the plebs didn't have cheque books.
(or even bank accounts)
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Apart from the rampant, rampant fraud the cards were brought in to mitigate, they were perfect!
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Nothing, other than apparently that the new Slashdot ownership isn't old enough to remember them.
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It's 8:55PM CDT on June 11, 2018, and the DEC logo is still up there.
Re:Why does this article have the DEC logo!? (Score:4, Insightful)
I still see the DEC logo (hint, it's the one that says "digital").
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Shut up, gramps. It was fixed b4 u put the comment in.
Ah, the impetuousness of youth.
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Look carefully. He's not BeauHD, and he has nothing to do with running this site.
Re:An advanced nation (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes it's great when it WORKS.
But really dumbfuck, I've experienced more than once that there been a system failure and you can't even purchase a fucking package of milk because there is NO fallback what so ever in Sweden, they don't process debitcards offline AT ALL.
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Hire more engineers to work on a better design of power grid?
More big batteries, wind, solar, nuclear, hydro?
Have engineers use computers to map out what part of the grid is under constant repair and make payments to redesign and upgrade that part of the grid?
Then the banks, networks and shops will have the grid power needed to keep supporting cards and digital banking services all over Sweden.
Sweden can then enjoy the good side of no cash.
A set tax base that c
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Find out why the power is not working?
In the most common case, they know why: severe weather or natural disaster broke an unusual number of power lines at once. It may take days, however, for crews to reconnect the lines.
Spending habits can be tracked.
Tracked by whom, and serving what legitimate interest, in the era of General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)?
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To see if any gov support payment is going to one person with a photo ID.
For tax rates. So the person working is getting the right tax rate, the correct wage and that their savings and spending fit around their reported work history.
Banks also like to consider their loans and who has the ability to make loan payments. Given a digital history of every past transaction with their bank.
Checks and balances (Score:5, Insightful)
The government to see if the money is getting spent legally.
Cash acts as a check on the government's power to shrink over time the set of things on which money can be "spent legally." With the threat of a black market eliminated, what keeps countries from adding 666% more totalitarian restrictions on what can be bought and sold?
In addition, even without electronic payment countries can restrict and have restricted what each part of a paycheck can be used for: see Cuban convertible and non-convertible pesos [wikipedia.org]. That's as if the vast majority of most people's paycheck was paid in scrip (like food stamps) instead of dollars. A shift to completely electronic payment would give the government even more fine-grained (read: intrusive) control over private citizens' private lives. Why is this outcome desirable?
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Norway and Sweden have power grids which... well they don't really go down
Re:An advanced nation (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me endeavour to ameliorate your ignorance just a bit with a few fun facts about Norway:
North to south, Norway's about 1200 miles long--roughly the same distance as from NYC to Key West.
It's almost all rugged mountains and ragged coast. (Unlike the US East Coast, which is generally pretty flat going hundreds of miles inland.)
Roughly half the country lies above the Arctic Circle. (Unlike the US East Coast, which lies entirely within the temperate zone.)
When you're speaking about building and maintaining nationwide power and transport networks, those features are *quite* significant.
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I can understand why you guys are struggling. But would it really be that big of a problem in Sweden? I always imagined Sweden, Norway and Denmark were pretty much the same when it comes to trusting that people are generally honest.
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That's exactly what happened the only time I've ever encountered that situation in Sweden. They asked if I could pay in cash, and when I didn't have enough, they just pulled out one of the old card machines that takes an impression of the card, took one, filled in the price/sales tax/total, had me sign the receipt, and my purchase and I were on our merry way.
The payment showed up on my account ledger a day or two later, so I'm guessing they had little or no trouble running the transaction manually once thei
Minors, legal immigrants, and swipe fees (Score:5, Insightful)
An average person in Sweden should be expected to be able to legally open and use a bank account?
Including an average child?
So every bank account would be connected to a real Swedish citizen. A person allowed to be in Sweden who has the correct ID.
In addition to Swedish citizens, "persons allowed to be in Sweden" include citizens of other EU countries and immigrants on a work visa.
No low amount of spending would be blocked.
Good luck with that when both the EFT and credit networks charge several cents per transaction.
Is Sweden expecting the lack of grid power?
This can happen and has happened.
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So every bank account would be connected to a real Swedish citizen. A person allowed to be in Sweden who has the correct ID.
In addition to Swedish citizens, "persons allowed to be in Sweden" include citizens of other EU countries and immigrants on a work visa.
... and tourists.
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Who legally exchange their funds for
Tourists might feel more happy to spend more knowing their funds are now digitally protected and can only be used by them.
Another bonus with moving to a digital currency and a win for tourists shopping.
That spending can then be tracked and taxed back to the tourists. Still winning.
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A person would get some packet money as they do cash now...
They would have to learn to use a bank card as they do cash now. Not that much of an extra educational step for an average person who can be expected to understand and use cash. Prove citizenship, add a bank account. The banks can support many new types of bank services for pocket money saving and spending.
Re "include citizens of other EU countries and immigrants on a work visa"
Who would all now have to prove to
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They would have to learn to use a bank card as they do cash now. Not that much of an extra educational step
Good luck counting the money associated with your card without having to buy, carry without breaking, and keep charged a card reader and subscribe to cellular data service for its connection to the payment network.
The banks can support many new types of bank services for pocket money saving and spending.
At what ballpark level of fees to the individual end user?
Banks would have to follow banking laws and support the movement of many amount of currency. Down to "cents" as thats would be a legal network transaction that has to be supported.
Watch most banks go out of business as they no longer have a source of revenue to handle the computational load of processing a small transaction. Or what means of compensating the payment networks would you propose?
Take some of that collected tax and pay some engineers to look at the grid.
For decades, engineers h
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Nations with banks, electrical power and an ID system have had that working for their citizens for some years now.
The card readers work, the cards read. Lost cards are replaced as banks know who is using their accounts and services.
At what ballpark level of fees to the individual end use
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Good luck counting the money associated with your card without having to buy, carry without breaking, and keep charged a card reader and subscribe to cellular data service for its connection to the payment network.
Who needs a card reader? I can get my balance in about 30 seconds on my phone using either a Web browser or my bank's customer app (both use 2FA, BTW).
If charges for the miniscule amount of data consumed by this are such a concern for you, then I suggest you find a more reasonable carrier.
Price difference between zero and minuscule data (Score:2)
If charges for the miniscule amount of data consumed by this are such a concern for you, then I suggest you find a more reasonable carrier.
I currently pay Comcast for 1000 GB/mo of wired Internet at home and T-Mobile USA for zero cellular data. My current cellular plan allows for 30 minutes or texts per month, with overages billed at 10 cents per. This works in many but not all places, as I get data anywhere that has a Comcast hotspot. But for use outside Comcast's Wi-Fi footprint, switching from zero to minuscule would require a substantial cost, which I've estimated at hundreds of dollars per year, to upgrade my plan. Do Swedish carriers hav
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There is also Visa, Paypal, Apple Pay, Google Pay, several local options, prepaid visa cards, etc... there is no shortage of options. If you only have cash, go to a local currency exchange and convert your cash to a prepaid bank card.
In Norway and Sweden, when using locally issued cards, there is no transaction fee. The smallest currency is a single Krone or Crown which is $0.12. The cheapest thing I know you can buy in e
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AFAIK öre/øre are still a thing, they just don't bother minting the coins anymore, at least in Sweden, although last time I was in Denmark (~1 year ago), they still used them.
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Re:Minors, legal immigrants, and swipe fees (Score:5, Insightful)
Every citizen would be required to seek approval from a private for profit corporation, to be allowed access to all the essentials of life based upon paying the required corporate for profit taxes for life, stop paying and die of starvation in the cold on the street.
Any citizen, who challenges any protected corporation at any time, will have their permission to access to all the essentials of life withdrawn. Zero means of survival with the approval of a for profit corporation. Cashless in a capitalist society is a close as practicable to slavery without crossing some imaginary line, lean right over sure, the citizen is now a corporate slave who must pay corporate taxes or be denied access to any of the essentials of life.
Imagine a dispute with the corporation that controls your finances. There start from the point of cutting off your access to your money, because it is no longer yours, it is theirs. Your phone dies because you can no longer pay and the telecom corporation has been informed. You can not catch a taxi, you can not even pay for public transport. Oh yeah, your negotiations with that controlling corporation are going to go really well. Think for a second you will be safe with more than one account with more that one group, fuck off, the first thing they will do is notify each other to make sure you are fucked from the get go.
Any government that pushes cash free in capitalist society is betraying it citizens and those politicians are straight traitors, and should be investigated and prosecuted as such. Cashless in capitalism is slavery, straight up.
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The average person in Sweden is 40.9 years old. You picked out a subset of it just to be dense.
I picked a subset through which the average person will have passed. The demographic shift creating too few workers per pensioner is a separate problem.
You are mixing up credit cards and debit cards. One uses a fixed fee and one a percent of the transaction.
Debit cards take a fixed fee and no percentage. But for small transactions (under say 2 USD or 16 SEK), this fixed fee alone can cause the seller to lose money on the transaction.
Also, the cost of handling coins is more than the transaction fee anyway.
I'd be interested to see data backing this up, especially for transactions between individuals. Last I checked, transaction fees were on the order of 0.30 USD, which would be about
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So lets see if I understand your argument:
Yadda, yadda, tax. Mumble, tax, mumble, mumble. Something, something, tax.
How about you put your hands back in your own pockets. The paramount goal of an economy is not to feed the bureaucrats.
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It's AHuxley, who seems to have mistaken this article for his journal.
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It's basically a case of national security. When the electronics fail then how does society manage?
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If power is such a constant problem the locals would be ready for such events going back generations. With their own supplies set aside.
Grid down thats going to take a while?
Power the food "shops" with a generators and have a bank move in staff with their own network, power and payment system for that town.
The shop has power, the bank is working. People have payments to buy food and their cards work.
All a matter of having planning in place for longer
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Should a town or community need more time to restore power, banks should be able to move support services in too.
As the banks would have to fully support a national digital currency under all conditions.
Sticking with cash as a backup is presumably cheaper for the national government than subsidizing the banks to roll trucks every time there is severe weather.
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Money has value because we trust the issuer of that money. This is why for some time we wouldn't want Iceland crowns in our pockets.
If we lose the electronics, it will be due to a failure by the issuer of that currency to do their jobs. This means that even if the paper theoretically has some value to it, that paper's value would collapse quickly because the country issuing it would no longer be able
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Ironically, you seem to have the stereotypical American education. No one is going to lose faith in a government-issued currency because weather takes out power for a week. But it will still play hell with people's lives if they cannot purchase anything for that length of time. When you live in a tiny place, you might find that getting the power back doesn't take too long. Now extend that to the entire north-east sector of the US. Things take longer when you have 1000s more km2 to cover.
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Digital banking would be a huge win for tax collection, gov payment tracking, as a national ID system for citizenship.
Who in Sweden cant cope with a banking system that would need photo ID and a back account?
Who has the political power to make cash a currency again and why?
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Who cares? It's a good thing that there's pushback against an evil trend.
Some of us don't want to be tracked like cattle, have our spending 100% controlled, and taxed to death.
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My questions are not for people who have freedom and enjoy freedom.
Something made Sweden start and enjoy this cashless method of banking. Everything needed was in place and working.
A society on average that likes new tech and has fast networks. Electrical power and an advanced delivery system for goods and services.
An advanced nation and most things gov network and can support such photo ID tracking and taxation.
What did Sweden find in its collection of ID, bank accounts and the use o
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Re:An advanced nation (Score:5, Interesting)
You're missing the point by projecting US values on Sweden. There are major differences:
1. Government isn't the enemy of the people, nor is it seen as one. It's overwhelmingly seen as organisation for the people, by the people. This is common in Nordics because here it isn't the government that was the major oppressive force on people. It was the extremely harsh climate. Government was the means to counter this major oppressive force, and actually survive to modernity.
2. Things like tax collection are widely seen primarily as civic duty, not as a burden. That's why we have "omg your tax rate is WHAT?!?!?!" reaction from North Americans migrating here. As well as "your government fully funds WHAT?!?!?!?!" when they have to go to the hospital, take their children to daycare, or take a university class while living on their own.
This however makes the reality of not being able to handle payments while living in the rural areas a reality during things like winter storms, when it's really critical for survival that payment is possible. Reminder of the historic reasons for #1 applies here. So government has noticed that there is a genuine problem in rural areas with cashlessness, and is now acting within its primary mandate of ensuring that backup systems work regardless of how it disadvantages the bureaucracy in Stockholm.
It is how Nordic government works as a matter of principle, and the main reason why most people from other cultures have such massive hurdles comprehending just why many things they're used to "being left to their own devices" "just work" here. It's the way citizenry and state interact with one another in a region where both had to support one another against the primary common enemy that is Nordic winter.
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How do you manage to keep safe from these imaginary brown people?? You poor snowflake!
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Instant stop to a lot of easy cash funded fraud and people get discovered with a lot of fake paperwork.
Gets more tricky to use the same face again and again all with different names and details.
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I suspect that you're a worthless troll.
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The ability to learn how to use a bank card. Most of a nations productive citizens do fit into that average.
Re:I wonder if it's hard to get a hooker (Score:5, Insightful)
How do prostitutes handle a cashless economy?
In civilised countries where we don't bother criminalising prositutes, they accept electronic payments like any other business.
I suspect you are confusing the US with a modern country.
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Re:I wonder if it's hard to get a hooker (Score:5, Interesting)
That touches on my main worry about cashless: power concentration. You don't feel it until a bit later when this concentrated power decides to use it .
- Let's introduce negative interest rates
- from now on we don't want you to pay to fund organisations of type X
- from now on it is impossible to do trade with person Y
Checks and balances, there's a reason for it.
Re:I wonder if it's hard to get a hooker (Score:5, Insightful)
That touches on my main worry about cashless: power concentration. You don't feel it until a bit later when this concentrated power decides to use it . - Let's introduce negative interest rates - from now on we don't want you to pay to fund organisations of type X - from now on it is impossible to do trade with person Y
Checks and balances, there's a reason for it.
Yes, and these reasons are why, once you go cashless, they have you by the balls. No more private or anonymous transactions. You will be forced to keep your money in the bank; where else could it be? There will be a record of every transaction; data mining on steroids. Unfortunately, most people only see the convenience, and don't have the foresight or imagination to understand all of the implications.
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The checks and balances mean you're required to think from an attitude of distrust, even if it's artificial distrust. Instead people simply just trust the system until they distrust it. Institutions in the meantime never see harm in concentrating more power if it allows them to do their job better. I'm being as nice as possible here in my formulation.
Re:I wonder if it's hard to get a hooker (Score:5, Insightful)
Err....something like CASH?
Prostitution not exactly legal in Sweden (Score:5, Informative)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The laws on prostitution in Sweden make it illegal to buy sex, but not to sell the use of one's own body for such services. Procuring and operating a brothel remain illegal.
Re:I wonder if it's hard to get a hooker (Score:4, Interesting)
(No country has acknowleged the failure of the War on Drugs and eliminated prohibition as their policy for drugs beyond pot. Only Portugal has even decriminalized personal possession of tiny quantities, still miles away from what a civilized, rational country would do if their interest actually was minimizing the harm of hard drugs; limited-access heroin maintenance programs are similarly far too narrow in scope to count. More civilized than the US != civilized)
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How's about a better example then. Since your 'civilised' country still has backwards, barbaric drug policies that increase the level of harm, because they're unwilling to accept science and reason because of moral judgements, how do drug dealers handle a cashless economy? (No country has acknowleged the failure of the War on Drugs and eliminated prohibition as their policy for drugs beyond pot. Only Portugal has even decriminalized personal possession of tiny quantities, still miles away from what a civilized, rational country would do if their interest actually was minimizing the harm of hard drugs; limited-access heroin maintenance programs are similarly far too narrow in scope to count. More civilized than the US != civilized)
The American War on Drugs, as you may know, is a political monster; not a scientific one. It was begun so that the Nixon administration could go after the leaders of the civil rights movement and the anti-war left. It is no surprise that it doesn't achieve its stated goals. It was never designed to. It has however somewhat achieved its actual goals, in that black people are over-represented in American prisons. It is a national disgrace that America has yet to come to terms with.
*Sweeden* : not like most civilised countries (Score:4, Informative)
Sweeden is one of the country where the nordic model of prostitution [thenation.com] was developed (hence the "nordic" moniker).
It's not completely legal as in some other European countries (DE, CH, NL, etc.)
Although the prostitutes themselves aren't considered criminals, every one around them is (e.g.: Amnesty mentions land lord being harassed for "pimping" if one of their rentee happens to work in prostitution). As such in nordic countries, according to findings of Amnesty, prostitute tend to try to keep hidden, and they probably prefer anonymous transaction (so mainly cash). (I might suspect that any financial intermediate accepting to collaborate with prostitutes could be similarly harassed)
But in other European countries (again, like Germany, Switzerland, Netherland, etc.) it's just a legitimate job like any other with everything that entails with it (taxation, social security and welfare, ...)
Most sex workers should be easily able charge your debit/credit cards (there was a salon around making street advertisement that they've introduced even bitcoins. - Yes here around making ads for a sex salon is just as normal as advertisements for any other business, as long as the practical visuals aren't indecent).
as long as they give you the necessary VAT-receipt slip.
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> as long as they give you the necessary VAT-receipt slip.
In what universe does a hooker add value to anything?
Re: *Sweeden* : not like most civilised countries (Score:3)
In what universe does a hooker add value to anything?
Any universe in which you're not required to marry them.
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How do prostitutes handle a cashless economy?
In civilised countries where we don't bother criminalising prositutes, they accept electronic payments like any other business.
I suspect you are confusing the US with a modern country.
What he means is "how are you going to pay a prostitute without your wife finding out sans cash"?
But seriously, the cheapest countries I've been to have been cash based. Without banks putting their sticky fingers over everything, business make more profit whilst customers get lower prices. Getting a pint in Central London is €6-10 and a prossie €3-500. In Central Amsterdam its €3-7 for a pint and some brass can be had for as little as €50.
You can usually tell if a business prefers
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You're confusing different issues here.
There's no reason why a cashless society should be cheaper given that they start incurring transaction charges. Once cash has gone, who's to stop those charges going up? The recent change in the EU that ended separate credit card fees is even worse because this helps hide these fees. Personally I think card fees should be charged directly to the card holder rather than hiding it in the merchant's prices. This might introduce competition and an incencitve to shop ar
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You're confusing different issues here.
I would disagree, yes there are two issues at play, but I'm not confusing one with the other.
There's no reason why a cashless society should be cheaper given that they start incurring transaction charges. Once cash has gone, who's to stop those charges going up? The recent change in the EU that ended separate credit card fees is even worse because this helps hide these fees. Personally I think card fees should be charged directly to the card holder rather than hiding it in the merchant's prices. This might introduce competition and an incencitve to shop around for card providers.
I couldn't agree with this more. Charges applied to merchants should be directly passed onto the customer. However banks and credit networks (Visa/MC/AMEX) explicitly do not permit it and are doing everything they can to get credit card surcharges banned by law in many countries so merchants have to hide how much cards are costing them (in the form of higher prices).
I'm not anti-credit mind you, all forms of paym
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In Norway, I gave a homeless person about $50 the other day hoping that she would go find someplace to take a shower and clean herself up a little. I paid it to her using a telephone payment system from the bank.
Of course, if that wouldn't have worked, I could go to any convenience store and buy a relatively anonymous prepaid credit card.
Now I have no idea what form of payments prostitutes here
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I live in a working class area in the U.S. where most people still use cash. Still, the only thing I really have to use cash for now are tips and donations. I wish more charities would offer some sort of credit card scanner when they're having a drive. And any place where you are expected to tip should offer an option to include your tip as part of payment (most restaurants do now, but there are still a few holdouts). The only business I've run into around here that still absolutely requires cash is this on
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What's really amazing is that you can actually function pretty well without cash in America these days... at least it Seattle and Tampa. I was really shocked ...
Being able to function without cash (most of the time) doesn't preclude the usfullness of cash in other situations.
I was really shocked since the U.S. is basically a 2nd or 3rd world country (this is based on how the wealthy and middle class treat their poor)
And yet poor people are literally dying to get here and native poor people aren't trying to leave. Just shows how stupid poor people are, eh?
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Our poor in the US are far and away better off than regular citizens in many other countries so your claims are clearly unfounded and nothing more than a arrogant cheap shot.
-geekpoet
This is what people in America tell themselves so that they don't have to readjust their rosy view. 7.4% of the people in the US don't necessarily know where their next meal is coming from. You think that's the case for "regular citizens" of other countries?
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The headline seems perfectly sensible to me.
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Nobody is forced to get a credit card here. Where did you hear this nonsense?
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UBI, whether a left-wing concept or a right-wing concept, is fundamentally barbaric because it treats individuals as property of the state.
There's already a name for a system in which the government is the provider/controller of life-sustaining essentials like income, food, housing, etc.
Prison.
The "cashless society" types are simply prisons without physical walls.
Strat
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UBI, whether a left-wing concept or a right-wing concept, is fundamentally barbaric because it treats individuals as property of the state. I'd be more interested in a libertarian-style UBI, i.e. one that is opt-in and driven purely by charity, but that's because I put justice above the various notions of "fairness" invented by statists of both wings.
If charity were sufficient, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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You're talking to someone who thinks that, because he's cleverly appended a number encased in parens to someone else's username, he's fooling anyone other than himself.
You'll get better results talking to your hand.
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About 10% of the population of Sweden is either foreign-born or has at least one foreign-born parent. In lots of different colours, from lots of different places.
There are probably more Russians here than non-whites.
Ursula Haverbeck is an unrepentant Nazi. Her husband was NSDAP Party Leader, and her best friend is Heinrich Himmler's daughter.
Knew a Polish fellow in the States who worked for my father and grandfather. Had a long number tattooed on one arm. He acquired it in Treblinka.
Knew another fellow, a r
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When I hear law enforcement officials from a plurality of countries state this, instead of central bankers and economic pundits, I'll be more inclined to believe it's a significant factor.
Here is the actual reality: central bankers crave a cashless society so they can impose negative interest rates [princeton.edu]. That's literally it.
If you want a pretty good overview of the big topics in monetary policy (and everyone should be interested because monetary policy involves the redistribution of purchasing power - it's inter