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The Courts Technology

Judge Rules Amazon Isn't Liable For Damages Caused By a Hoverboard It Sold (cnbc.com) 176

Earlier this week, a judge in Tennessee ruled that Amazon isn't liable for damages caused by a hoverboard that spontaneously exploded and burned down a family's house, even though they bought it on Amazon's website. "The plaintiff claimed that Amazon didn't properly warn her about the dangers they knew existed with the product, but the judge didn't agree," reports CNBC. At the time, hoverboards were all the rage; Amazon sold almost 250,000 of them over a 30-day period. The plaintiff claims the company had an obligation to warn customers properly about the dangers it knew existed. "[The plaintiff] bought the hoverboard on Amazon, the receipt came from Amazon, the box had an Amazon label and all the money was in Amazon's hands," adds CNBC. "[The plaintiff] has been unable to find the Chinese manufacturer of the device." From the report: It's the latest legal victory for Amazon, which has for years fended off litigation related to product quality and safety by arguing that, for a big and growing part of its business, it's just a marketplace. There are buyers on one end and sellers on the other -- the argument goes -- and Amazon connects them through a popular portal, facilitating the transaction with a sophisticated logistics system. The courts are reinforcing the power of Amazon's business model as the ultimate middleman. But for American consumers, there's growing cause for concern. [...] But if Amazon isn't liable when faulty products sold through its website cause personal injuries and property damage, customers are often left with no recourse. That's because it's frequently impossible for consumers to figure out who manufactured the defective product and hold that party responsible.
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Judge Rules Amazon Isn't Liable For Damages Caused By a Hoverboard It Sold

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  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:18AM (#56720180) Homepage Journal

    "[The plaintiff] has been unable to find the Chinese manufacturer of the device."

    If Amazon can't put the buyer in contact with the company which produced the device, then they should be liable. They sold it, they should be responsible for it. Frankly, even if they can put the person in contact, they should still be responsible, and recovering damages from the supplier should be their problem.

    We have consumer protection laws for a reason, and that reason is that not having them costs everyone money. This decision simply lets Amazon push the cost of doing business off onto the court system, which means We The People have to pay for their cost of doing business.

    • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:22AM (#56720204)

      agree. amazon is acting like Uber, falsly saying the sellers are (the equivalent) to Uber's fiction of "contractors" not employees. Hoepfully california or another big state can fix this.

      • we're left putting our hopes in California. Man I wish the rest of the country could get with the program on consumer safety.
        • by jedidiah ( 1196 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @11:52AM (#56720576) Homepage

          California? You must be joking. Amazon is simply not the responsible party here. The merchant has never been the responsible party. They shouldn't be. They didn't make the product.

          All this kind of nonsense will do is destroy the ability to do business. That will only drive away people that can feed money into your economy and prevent your cities from going bankrupt.

          What ever happened to whining about bottom feeding lawyers attacking whatever "deep pocket" they happen to come across?

          • by Kjella ( 173770 )

            California? You must be joking. Amazon is simply not the responsible party here. The merchant has never been the responsible party. They shouldn't be. They didn't make the product.

            Depends on your jurisdiction, here in Norway the thought is that the consumer is an amateur, the merchant and manufacturer are professionals and they share responsibility that the rights granted by law are fulfilled. For example if you import US goods with a 90 day manufacturer warranty that has a 2 year minimum warranty here. Or the customer wants to make a complaint in Norwegian, they can't go oh that must be in English or Chinese. Or if it was missing some sort of license or certification or contains out

            • Hence one of the reasons why you don't have the option to buy stuff from Amazon and have it delivered to Norway without using a 3rd party intermediary re-shipper and why consumer prices in United States are 33.77% lower than in Norway.

            • Basically for consumer liability you can shoot at anyone left standing until there's no one to shoot at.

              And you consider this a good thing? I'm perfectly fine with certain things like UL listing and other fire safety standards but if a company creates a product, properly tests a product, and then sells the product and a defect is found, then it shouldn't be liable for mistakes it didn't know about.
              An example I like to use is someone who goes under for surgery and is conscience the whole time. This happens to about 1/100000 people and is a very traumatic experience for the patient but there is no way for th

            • Okay... honest and serious question here:

              Doesn't that just lead to the lawyers just going after whoever in that chain had the deepest pockets rather than the party that actually screwed up?

              ... Because that's absolutely what would happen here in the US if that sort of system were allowed. If this sort of lawsuit were allowed to go the other way here; it would be a field day for manufacturers to design, build, and sell absolute janky garbage across the board. And they'd *never* face any consequences becaus

          • by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @02:57PM (#56721218) Journal

            All this kind of nonsense will do is destroy the ability to do business.

            Ah the old "Europe does not exist" argument. They are responsible in Europe and they are profitable enough to continue to do business there.

      • amazon is acting like Uber

        No they aren't. They are just saying they are not an exception to the general rule that resellers are not responsible for products they sell. Should you be able to sue the corner grocery store because you got cancer from the cigarettes you bought there?

        If every reseller has to do independent testing of every product they sell, our economy will grind to a halt.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      .... No.

      Amazon has put customers in direct contact with the seller, and that information is present when buying the product. That's like suing the home depot for a problem with a john deer lawn mower. The customer here realized that the manufacturer is not going to play ball, or can't pay the sum so they want to go after the vendor now.

    • I agree. They are not ultimately and finally responsible, but any losses incurred here by Amazon is a claim by Amazon against the company that produced the faulty product.

      If the fault turns out to be from a component, they buyer is not expected to track down the supplier of the component, or worse their supplier. It is generally the case though, that the buyer has a claim against the seller.
    • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:30AM (#56720238)

      How do classic brick & mortar retailers deal with this . . . ?

      If I march into Wallgreens and buy a bottle of vitamins, and the vitamins turn out to be a Dead Russian cocktail of ricin, polonium and nerve gas . . . is Wallgreens on the hook . . . ? Or can they say,

      "We bought a large discount lot of them on the Darknet, and don't know how to contact the seller. But the seller is liable, not us".

      • by gnick ( 1211984 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @11:07AM (#56720390) Homepage

        IANAL, but it seems to me that Walgreen's would be responsible for their brand of vitamin but not the others. It would be responsible of them to play their part in a recall, but I don't know why they'd be on the hook for a QC fail at Dead Russian brand vitamins.

        • actually Walllgreen's is not any more responsible for the Wallgreen's brand than any other. It's just another third party manufacturer just with custom labeling. It's not any different than any other product they sell.
      • by mjwx ( 966435 )

        How do classic brick & mortar retailers deal with this . . . ?

        If I march into Wallgreens and buy a bottle of vitamins, and the vitamins turn out to be a Dead Russian cocktail of ricin, polonium and nerve gas . . . is Wallgreens on the hook . . . ? Or can they say,

        "We bought a large discount lot of them on the Darknet, and don't know how to contact the seller. But the seller is liable, not us".

        Actually Wallgreens would be off the hook.

        Firstly because they'd pass the buck to their supplier, which is 100% legal, the product was missold to Wallgreens as well and secondly, because the FDA is responsible for ensuring that food and medical products are safe for human consumption.

        Amazon is not representing these products, they are simply providing a platform for them to be sold.

      • The same way amazon does.

        The brick & mortar equivalent would be a farmers' market or a flea market. If you have a problem with a product purchased is your dispute with the entity operating the stall you bought it from or with the entity running the entire market? I suspect you will in fact get a "the seller is liable not us" response.

        If your Samsung phone explodes do you take it up with the T-mobile store you bought it from? Or do you take it up with the owners of the mall in which the T-mobile is locat

    • They didn't sell it. Amazon is no more responsible then UPS was for delivering it of VISA was for handling the payment. The families lawyer just went after the deepest pockets as Omar's imports probably went under already. Yes Amazon definitely knows who the seller was and so does the family and their lawyer.
      • by DogDude ( 805747 )
        Amazon knew what they were selling. VISA and UPS did not. Huge difference. Amazon should be held 100% responsible for the things they sell.
        • Amazon only sells there own products. Everything else is a third party. You cant sue a farmers market because the guy in stall 6 sold mushy fruit. The product never belonged to Amazon. If you buy crap on Ebay you can't sue Ebay you sue the seller.
    • >"If Amazon can't put the buyer in contact with the company which produced the device, then they should be liable. They sold it, they should be responsible for it"

      I totally agree with that statement. But ONLY if Amazon can't provide that information. Otherwise, it is not Amazon's problem.

      >"Frankly, even if they can put the person in contact, they should still be responsible, and recovering damages from the supplier should be their problem."

      Not sure I agree with THAT statement. In those cases, they

      • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:56AM (#56720344) Homepage Journal

        Not sure I agree with THAT statement. In those cases, they would only be responsible for replacement or refund of what they sold.

        Amazon completed the sale, collected payment, and made a profit. They ARE the seller. The person they refer to as the seller on their site is actually a supplier. This is wholly different from the example of a flea market, where people are charged for space rent and then they really are the seller; they collect payment, and complete the sale.

        Amazon is the seller, they sold the item, therefore they should be responsible for the damages — which in this case dramatically exceeds the replacement/refund value of the product which they sold.

        • in more and more products, amazon is the ODM, spec'ing the actual design of the product (amazon basics, for one) and having someone build it to their specs.

          only very large companies can afford to do that, and amazon is one of the world's largest, now.

          to absolve them of any fault in this case - wow - that's amazing. not unexpected, given who's running things right now, but still amazing how brazen the courts are in stepping on our necks (seemingly with delight). only thing missing is a furry cat and bezos

        • You seem not to use Amazon.
          In this case Amazon is the broker, handeling the order, the payment and perhaps the shipping.
          The seller is from whom ever the plaintiffs bought the ifems.
          Can't be so hard to grasp.

          • You seem not to use Amazon. In this case Amazon is the broker, handeling the order, the payment and perhaps the shipping. The seller is from whom ever the plaintiffs bought the ifems. Can't be so hard to grasp.

            Yep. But in cases like this, I might actually go with the rule being that the broker has to demonstrate that the item provided was from the specific seller and that they can provide the necessary information to sue the correct party--in other words, you have to keep your records properly and, if you're handling the shipping, you need to keep your warehouse straight as well so all items can be traced back.

        • You can't sell something you don't own. At no time does Amazon own these products or assume any risk. Amazon is just a set price auction house. This is not a new concept. Plenty of consignment houses exist and have for decade and centuries. Amazon does not get the money from the sale the seller does minus Amazon's fee. Not new, not a scam, just a way to provide a service. Responsibility follows risk and therefore is not Amazon's. Many Judges have ruled very clearly here... AMAZON IS NOT THE SELLER.
          • Fine. But if you think that Amazon can't figure out who the manufacturer was then I've got a bridge to sell you.

        • Amazon completed the sale, collected payment, and made a profit. They ARE the seller.

          Sure. But is that how it works in other cases? If I buy a light bulb at Home Depot, and it turns out[1] to be defective, don't I have to take it up with the manufacturer?

          That is, Home Depot completed the sale, collected payment, and make a profit. And they are the seller. But I don't see in the analogy they would be responsible.

          [1] After their return policy expires, let's. say.

    • by grumbel ( 592662 )

      What makes this even more scummy is that Amazon is doing all they can to blur the lines between third party sellers and Amazon purchases. The marketplace is not a separate subsection of Amazon, it's completely integrated into the main shop and they will show you products sold by them and products sold by third parties interchangeably. To complicate things even further Amazon will stock some third party products in their own warehouses, so everything is handled by Amazon, except the liability. As a customer

    • "[The plaintiff] has been unable to find the Chinese manufacturer of the device."

      If Amazon can't put the buyer in contact with the company which produced the device, then they should be liable. They sold it, they should be responsible for it. Frankly, even if they can put the person in contact, they should still be responsible, and recovering damages from the supplier should be their problem.

      We have consumer protection laws for a reason, and that reason is that not having them costs everyone money. This decision simply lets Amazon push the cost of doing business off onto the court system, which means We The People have to pay for their cost of doing business.

      Should one expect to be able to get in touch with the manufacture when they buy a cheap, Chinese brand knock off product that's never been heard of before? I buy cheap Chinese stuff on occasion but always with the expectation that if it is crap or faulty, there will be little chance of recourse.

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by dhawton ( 691348 )

      No, they shouldn't. It's not their responsibility. Target doesn't put me in contact with the maker of ZYX product. If it isn't a concern that they can address, they'll tell me to contact the manufacturer. If the person buying the product can't figure out who the maker is, then they shouldn't be buying it... it doesn't matter WHERE you are buying from... Ebay, Amazon, Walmart, Target... if you can't figure out who produced it, then don't buy it and keep looking. If you end up buying crap because you did

    • by arth1 ( 260657 )

      We have consumer protection laws for a reason, and that reason is that not having them costs everyone money.

      And here I thought consumer protection laws were for protecting consumers, and not about money. Silly me.

      • And here I thought consumer protection laws were for protecting consumers, and not about money. Silly me.

        That's not just silly, it's completely unfounded. We live under capitalism, where capital controls the means of production. Capital is the only thing that matters. That's why our so-called democracy is actually an oligarchy.

        If there's no financial interest, a thing doesn't happen under capitalism.

    • If Amazon's warehouse burned down from a faulty hover board, who would be responsible?
      • The seller. They still own the product. I your in a parking lot and your car catches on fire and destroys 2 other cars, your responsible.
    • Agree, the decision is quite surprising. I understand that for some sales Amazon might be just a middleman, but if the bill comes from Amazon, box comes from Amazon, there is no clear indication who the actual seller is then it is Amazon.

      I had myself some unpleasant experiences, now I am very careful to check if the seller has US office/address to return to.
  • Just advise shoppers that they use the products Amazon sells at their own risk - with no guarantees, implied or otherwise.

    Doing this would be similar to the "guarantees" we get on software.

    How about that?

    • by Cederic ( 9623 )

      Or perhaps you - and half the ACs posting on this story - should learn to understand the difference between a market place and a vendor.

      Amazon were not the vendor. They sold nothing. They did not sell the combusting hoverboards.

      the products Amazon sells

      ..are entirely and totally completely fucking orthogonal to this entire fucking discussion.

  • by inking ( 2869053 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:43AM (#56720290)

    I do not think the issue is Amazon in this case: it is Chinese sellers and customer protection in a globalized world in general.

    I had once bought a game key on Ebay and the Chinese seller refused to send it to me without me sending him a copy of my ID for age verification. Understandably, the last thing I want to do is sending some guy in China is the information on my ID. I asked for a refund and the seller refused, copy-pasting the same message about how I should give him a good review first. I contacted Ebay, then PayPal, none of whom wanted to help me with my issue despite the seller being marked with all of Ebay’s trusted symbols. The very young-sounding customer support person actually said that I “have the reigns in my hands and should threaten the seller with bad reviews until he refunds me”. I then reported the seller for “review extortion”, which is an offense under Ebay’s own terms of conduct, Ebay confirmed that review extortion had taken place and refused to help me with my refund.

    At this point, I gave the Chinese bastard a snarky yet positively-marked review and he returned my money. I am confident that there is a library worth of similar stories that never made it into the court room due to being less high-profile. All of these companies are utter trash when it comes to third party seller customer protection.

    • Re:Not Amazon (Score:5, Insightful)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:50AM (#56720318) Homepage Journal

      I do not think the issue is Amazon in this case: it is Chinese sellers and customer protection in a globalized world in general.

      Amazon is deliberately enabling these sellers, with full knowledge that they will defraud customers. Then they are failing to maintain contact information on them that would permit customers to attempt to recoup their losses. They are willfully contributing to this illegal activity, and making literally zero effort to prevent it, which is why they should be held liable.

      • Who says they "they are failing to maintain contact information'. Everything sounds better when you make stuff up. There lawyers chose to go after Amazon instead of the sellers because Amazon is in the US and has lots of money. And the fact that the sellers likely went under due to the high return rate. That would be the reason they can't find the manufacturer.
        • Who says they "they are failing to maintain contact information'. Everything sounds better when you make stuff up.

          You didn't even make it to the end of the fine summary, did you? Regardless, TFA clearly states:

          After the incident, Oberdorf says, she couldn't locate a representative of the third-party seller, The Furry Gang, which operated on Amazon under the name Dogaholics. Amazon was the only point of contact.

          Since Amazon was the only point of contact, and couldn't put them in contact with the supplier (which Amazon refers to as the "seller" in spite of the clear fact that they are making the sale) they had no recou

  • by Marlin Schwanke ( 3574769 ) on Sunday June 03, 2018 @10:54AM (#56720336)
    No one is responsible for anything, at any time, anywhere. No rules, no regulations, anything goes. You all remember voting for this, right?
    • You all remember voting for this, right?

      Now now, you can do better than that, can't you? We obviously didn't all vote for this on either the basis that Trump "lost" the popular vote, or that voter turnout was historically low.

      • Now now, you can do better than that, can't you? We obviously didn't all vote for this on either the basis that Trump "lost" the popular vote, or that voter turnout was historically low.

        Did I mention Trump? Or the last election? I did not.

        However, one party has been preaching the mantra of "government bad, regulations bad" for decades. They are regularly elected to office. We end up toothless regulations and regulatory agencies without funding to actually do much of anything.

  • It should be the case that:
    • 1) There should be a governmental regulatory agency in place which constantly determines whether a given product can be sold in the US, based on its safety, and IF it can be sold whether the seller is required to warn of any particular or general dangers.
    • 2) Amazon should be required to comply with the dictates of said agency. Specifically, it should be illegal for Amazon to facilitate the sale of (for an extreme but illustrative example) a bomb... and if Amazon knows a given product causes cancer (whether it knows that from the regulatory agency or the manufacturer), it should be required to disclose that at the point of sale.
    • 3) Amazon should be required to make available the manufacturer's name / contact info / etc, both before the sale and as needed upon request after the sale (even if the vendor has ceased selling on Amazon).

    I'm fairly certain that #1 is already in place, and my guess is that #2 is being contested by Amazon, that Amazon is claiming something to the effect that they're more like a postal service than a store. If I have that right, then I wholeheartedly side against Amazon in this case; whether or not they're "like" a store or a delivery service in a traditional sense, they're a new kind of entity and we need tech laws to keep up with new tech entities. I don't think Amazon should be required to do consumer device testing, but IF there is an available database (from a regulatory entity) documenting harm, Amazon absolutely should be required to present that information at the point of sale.

    • #2 already exists and Amazon complied fully. The thing is this is a reactive, not proactive system. The items we determined to be defective. A recall was issued. Amazon suspended all sales. (actually iI think they did that before the recall was issued)
    • 1) There should be a governmental regulatory agency in place which constantly determines whether a given product can be sold in the US, based on its safety, and IF it can be sold whether the seller is required to warn of any particular or general dangers.
      [...]
      I'm fairly certain that #1 is already in place,

      Eh, kind of. You can legally sell whatever you want, but if the FTC gets too many complaints that a given product is defective, it gets tested. At that point, they CAN force a mandatory recall, but the point here is that it is reactive and not proactive.

      2) Amazon should be required to comply with the dictates of said agency.

      Once a mandatory recall has been initiated, then they are required to comply (and NO ONE is permitted to sell the affected products.)

      3) Amazon should be required to make available the manufacturer's name / contact info / etc, both before the sale and as needed upon request after the sale (even if the vendor has ceased selling on Amazon).

      This is the place where Amazon is falling down, and the point at which we should all be able to agree that they should become

  • Seriously, Walmart/Target management are the ones behind having Chinese copy American patented goods. BUT, conservatives judges want to blame the manufacturer who was contacted by Walmart/Target to build such items.
    In fact,the 7-9 manufacturers that work for these 2 companies are the ones that likely made the hoover boards, which were copies of an American company.

    At what point do American companies get held responsible since the CHinese, and in general, all non-western companies, are not.
  • ... the piracy issue.

    ISPs are the middle man, simply connecting content providers to consumers.

    The owners of the IP have a hard time precisely identifying, and litigating, those on either end, so the effort turns to making the provider soak up the liability.

    Shooting the messenger.

  • Actually, I generally refuse to buy from Amazon at all, but I NEVER buy third party from Amazon. The first time I ordered a used book from Amazon, the money disappeared, but the book never showed up, and Amazon disavowed all responsibility. Since then I never buy third party goods from Amazon. If it's a new book, and the local book store can't order it for me, I order directly from the publisher. There have been 2 or 3 exceptions over the last decade. And the last thing I bought from Amazon that wasn't

  • There's lots of cheap 3D printers that'll happily burn your house down. People on the forums know what parts are dangerous and how to fix them so they're LESS LIKELY to go up in flames but... recently it was noticed that actually most don't have basic firmware protection against runaway heating. Let's say your heating element falls off and gets drug around. Most printers won't detect this and will crank the heat up full blast since it can't read the temperature anymore. FWOOSH.

    Yet you can buy these kits wit

  • ...what I already knew: Amazon is no better than eBay when it comes to costumer responsibility practices.
    Just recently I read a post about fake SD cards still being a thing on Amazon, and this has been going on for the better part of the last decade, so it's quite obvious that Amazon simply doesn't care anymore.
    But I've stopped buying on Amazon anyways back since they adopted an extremely aggressive tactic of pre-charging some 120~150% import tax for people living in my country. Brazil does have a very pric

  • Pretty simple really, do your homework and know what you're buying, then shop price. Don't just search for the cheapest POS you can find in some broad category. There is good stuff and bad stuff out there, don't buy the bad stuff.

    • It's not very fair to generalise like that. All countries produce good and bad stuff, including whatever "sh1thole country" you come from.
  • If you buy something, a question to ask is "who do I sue?". If you can't identify the party to sue, or they're not exactly reachable using the legal system, then maybe the small price may not be that good.

    The usual approach is "meh, made in China" and throw it out and buy another one. But that's when things just die on you rather than explode and burn your house down.

    If the local courts can't get to you, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to sell direct to the market. You should get an importer to handle the le

  • If you buy a defective product from Target would you sue the cashier? No? But she took your money, she gave you the product, she's the seller... right? No? This is no different. Its just that the scale is different. Is the party store responsible if there is a mouse in your beer. No. Is a car dealer responsible for a manufacturers defect. No. Is your pharmacy responsible for a bad batch of viagra? No. The fact is we have a lot of people here operating off emotional biases, focusing their hate on the big b

Some people manage by the book, even though they don't know who wrote the book or even what book.

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