Chinese Journalist Banned From Flying, Buying Property Due To 'Social Credit Score' (cbslocal.com) 404
schwit1 shares a report from CBS Local: China is rolling out a high-tech plan to give all of its 1.4 billion citizens a personal score, based on how they behave. But there are consequences if a score gets too low, and for some that's cause for concern. When Liu Hu recently tried to book a flight, he was told he was banned from flying because he was on the list of untrustworthy people. Liu is a journalist who was ordered by a court to apologize for a series of tweets he wrote and was then told his apology was insincere. "I can't buy property. My child can't go to a private school," he said. "You feel you're being controlled by the list all the time." And the list is now getting longer as every Chinese citizen is being assigned a social credit score -- a fluctuating rating based on a range of behaviors. It's believed that community service and buying Chinese-made products can raise your score. Fraud, tax evasion and smoking in non-smoking areas can drop it.
China has "progressive" thought-police too? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, who knew!
My post here is oddly on topic. Mod me up (Score:2)
I decided to post rather than parent down.
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Our next lesson will cover why conjecture does not equate to proof. Please attend.
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And my comment apparently was attached to the wrong parent.. in which case, disregard.
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Not for private Chinese schools, they have scholarships for students studying abroad with the hope that a large portion of those will bring back the knowledge and expertise we have here in higher education.
Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:4, Informative)
And when you kill a man, you're a murderer
Kill many, and you're a conqueror
Kill them all, oh you're a god
-Megadeth, Captive Honour
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..and thought 'That's a good idea!'.... Scary..
I believe the Chinese system predates the black mirror episode though, it was probably inspired by it.
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..and thought 'That's a good idea!'.... Scary..
With the Chinese, at least the government is the doing the scoring, so you can understand the nature of the beast, with the US, you're really throwing yourself on the court of public opinion and hoping it isn't spun by Fox News.
And providing your social media accounts is now mandatory to enter the US.
are you serious? (Score:2)
I hope you are joking or this was sarcastic. Chinese transparency isn't high on the priority list in that system of government.
With the what and the what now?? (Score:2)
With the Chinese, at least the government is the doing the scoring, so you can understand the nature of the beast....
Which is that it is tied into every single company which is why he can't fly, or get loans, nor have a kid in private school...
with the US, you're really throwing yourself on the court of public opinion
Which also holds no power over who you can and cannot do business with, nor is tied into various government agencies like the TSA so you can still fly.
And you are painting the situation in Chin
Whatever can be done, WILL BE DONE ! (Score:4, Insightful)
Socialist dream (tm).
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Historically the treatment of jews by European governments in the last thousand years hasn't been great. And yet they recognized that even a very imperfect government was better than chaos. The trick is how to keep the government aligned with the interests of the people.
Yes, abuses of power will happen; it doesn't mean that power is never used for the common good and should nev
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:4, Insightful)
It IS a good idea, I've been advocating it for ages.
I wouldn't use it to ban you from flying though. I'd only use it to affect your right to vote, to claim social benefits (government money), etc.
You want anything back from society? Stop being antisocial!
Lose your right to vote for disagreeing with the government???
Yeah.. No!!!
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
ie. All the stuff that would rate you as an "asshole".
All the stuff that would rate you as an 'asshole' today. Unfortunately, once such a system is in place it becomes very easy to use it to disenfranchise people who disagree with either the current leaders or the whoever is currently best at propaganda. How do you think the racial equality movement in the US in the '60s would have done if anyone involved in antisocial actions had lost the right to vote?
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
It could possibly be a good idea in theory, but only in theory. Every one of those things you listed has edge cases and/or difference of opinion. Who decides what harassment is? At 2 am even the tiniest sound can wake people who are light sleepers. I'm not into sports at all, but what if I buy a TV on superbowl weekend because of the sales but discover it has some serious usability bugs that could never be observed in a store display?
But most important of all I think is the opportunity for abuse. Have a Hillary (or Trump) sticker on your car? Look at that, your tail light is out. Hey, you just did 1mph over the limit. Your bumper went an inch over the stop line at the red light. But swap one sticker for the other and you could see the cops looking the other way for a 10mph-over infraction. You already have police displaying that sort of discriminatory discretion, but when even more is on the line...the opportunity to remove your political opponents from the voting pool...you can expect it to be much worse.
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Who decides what harassment is? At 2 am even the tiniest sound can wake people who are light sleepers.
Playing loud music at 2am is hardly ever social behavior (and everybody knows that).
what if I buy a TV on superbowl weekend because of the sales but discover it has some serious usability bugs that could never be observed in a store display?
That was only an example to make you stop and think. Obviously it's hard to prove somebody's intentions.
OTOH we all know that there's a certain segment of the population who regularly does that sort of thing and puts up the price of TVs for everybody else.
I have a suspicion their overall society score will be less than perfect. Maybe the right to "full refund, no questions asked" could also be revoked when your score drops b
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(...)
Remember that everybody starts with a full score. You don't have to work to earn any privileges. They're only taken away after you're an asshole towards the rest of us.
No. They're "only" taken away once some unaccountable bureaucrat on politician's payroll decides without due process that in his opinion you have been an asshole. Very VERY different thing from actually being an asshole.
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So Antifa gets to lose their right to vote? Maybe I can get behind this...
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Would you be happy if there was a specific clause that allowed you to say things about the government but not about other people?
You know, a bit like the USA's "Free Speech" laws? Guess what? They already forbid you from saying anything you want to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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*shudder*
I mean, we're getting close to that already voluntarily, I"d be afraid for this country if is was actually mandated by law.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
It IS a good idea, I've been advocating it for ages.
I wouldn't use it to ban you from flying though.
*You* wouldn't use it at all. You would be used by it, at the whims of whoever would control it.
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First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
--MARTIN NIEMÖLLER
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Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
It IS a good idea, I've been advocating it for ages.
Yeah, well your advocacy is deemed antisocial, so your score just went off a cliff. No school for your kids!!!
The trouble with advocating authoritarianism the way you do is that it will *always* be used against you. How fast would we have had legalised gay marriages if we were keeping an antisocial scorecard? How long would it have taken to strike-down Jim Crow laws if everyone was kept in check via a non-court scorecard?
Besides, you want these things implemented? Sure. How about I get your score into negative territory by complaining that your music was loud at 2am, or that you were smoking in a no-smoking area, or that you I saw you littering? With no due process how are you going to defend yourself when it's my word against your word?
Take it to court? Sorry. Your advocacy was for bypassing the courts when issuing penalties.
See, the thing is you think your shit don't stink, so these penalties would never apply to you, but the thing your advocating for (bypassing due process) can be used against you by anyone, not just those in power.
You go ahead and get this implemented, but don't cry foul when you get penalised for blaring music at 2am even though you did no such thing. When you bypass due process, you bypass it for everyone, including yourself.
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It is a tool that can be abused for corruption. Score too low? Pay off the right people or threaten them to change your score.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with this solution is that you get a society that stagnates and ossifies. It's a simple solution for a complex problem that causes more problems in the end.
Anyone fighting for social change would be labeled as antisocial and suddenly their rights are heavily circumscribed.
Those who think this is a good idea is the same type of people who want to treat the symptoms rather than the cause.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:4, Insightful)
It IS a good idea, I've been advocating it for ages.
I wouldn't use it to ban you from flying though. I'd only use it to affect your right to vote, to claim social benefits (government money), etc.
You want anything back from society? Stop being antisocial!
It's always nice to see the mask fall off the leftist lunatic.
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Lunatic I can agree with, but there's nothing about this idea that's particularly leftist.
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You want the power to ban people from voting and getting benefits?
You are exactly the person who does not get this ability. In fact, no one person gets this ability.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Being anti-social is a right. Hate speech is protected speech.
Being anti-social is your right, yes.
Just don't expect society to respond when you happen to need something back from it.
Now stop being a little bitch.
Touche.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:2, Informative)
You get roads to travel on, cops to deter people who could hurt you, ambulances to carry your unconscoius body to an ER if you almost die, a working market and currency to exchange goods and services with, a global communications network on which to reach other people, etc.
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Now stop being a little bitch.
And when you have a history of antisocial behavior, as is your right, and suddenly want or need something back from society, that's precisely what you can expect the lot of us to respond with, as well.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, the points (and accompanying fine) are issued administratively, but in most (or all?) countries in Europe you do have the right to go to court if you think there has been a mistake.
Thirdly, if you lose your points you are banned from driving, not from flying or from buying property.
All this honours the idea that the punishment should fit the crime. The Chinese system on the other hand lets a number of small transgressions turn into a life ruining event. And since it bans you from a large number of activitites that are completely unrelated to each other or to the crime, this smells of cruel and unusual punishment and double jeopardy.
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, there’s the problem of fallibility, so punishment should err on the side of weak punishment because what if the system made the wrong judgment? and there is the problem of downward spirals, where a few small events are exacerbated.
I don’t mind that they want meticulous discipline - but you don’t get that by ruining people in unfair and cruel ways. You get... you get the opposite. The Chinese system is shooting itself in the foot, as people will conclude that they already live in chaos, not order.
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Wow, someone actually said something true on the internet. I'll have to jot this down.
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I'm not so sure; from the perspective of an ordinary Chinese (particularly those old enough to remember before the economic boom of the last 20-30 odd years) the party has greatly benefited their country. And when you're winning, you can get away with quite a lot.
Besides from the outside looking in; when they think of the West, what do you suppose their opinion is? (Hint: they probably see us as far more chaotic and disorderly -- they might actually prefer the kind of control outlined in the article.)
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I think you have it there. We should refrain from false equivalences, and see China for what it is, or might be becoming again. Control run amok.
Re: Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, do you mean like making smoking/possession of marijuana a criminal offense and then using that as a basis to disenfranchise people from voting, employment, welfare, etc.? No free country would ever do something like that, would it?
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It's possible that's exactly what was meant. Drug laws, and the drug war thingy, is an idea that is a non-starter. It doesn't work. And that holds true even forgetting about how benign pot typically is. It's not some evil force that corrupts our society and our kids, it's something to be judged in rational terms. The harm just ain't there for this little weed. Caution? Yes. Waiting until adulthood? Apparently yes to that too, physiologically. Big time harm? Nope. You'll statistically likely to be more overw
Re:Someone's been watching Black Mirror... (Score:4, Interesting)
As mentioned above, being antisocial is a pretty vague term and possibly treads on protected speech if you're in a country that protects speech.
The UK has antisocial behavior laws, eg. They can forbid you from doing anything which has caused nuisance to others in the past, eg. ban you from going down a certain street from going into the town center.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
However, I do think this would be a good idea if applied to criminal behaviour. Take shitty drivers off the road for driving like dicks, forbid fraudsters and tax evaders from holding business licences and being bondable, that sort of thing. Relevant punishments for relevant crimes.
They don't already do that where you live? Weird.
I'd take it a step further. Anything you do in public that requires somebody else to go around cleaning up after you? Points off your social score. Any sort of violence or intimidation of other people? Points off your score. Any behavior that puts other people at risk? Points off your score. etc., etc.
Nobody's asking you to be an angel, be a miserable git if you want, just don't be a drain on society. Society has enough problems without people like you causing extra expense and cleanups.
You can't stop yourself from being an asshole? Fine, but don't ask for anything in return. Starting with the right to vote.
This would reduce the strain on the prison system if we just limit the freedoms of those who abused their freedoms, rather than locking them up. Only lock up violent psychopaths should be locked up, let the rest of society's fuck-ups walk around less-than-free with their heads hung low.
Agree 100% there. The only people who should be in prison are those who cause physical harm to others (or other people's property).
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You sound like a raging control freak. You know, like the kind of insane asshole who rages against small supposed infractions and lets it fester to the point he rents a truck and mows down bystanders just to show them who's boss. Maybe you should be prevented from driving any motor vehicles. Just to be safe.
From the makers of the Great Firewall... (Score:5, Insightful)
Needs to be transparent (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Needs to be transparent (Score:4)
You know all the Supreme Leader's buddies are going to have padded scores, right...
You got that wrong. BEING dear leader's buddy IS what pads your score. Criticize dear leader? Down with your score. Praise him publicly? All is forgiven.
Rest assured, you'll find a LOT of people suddenly applauding whoever is in charge, turning fascist, communist or whatever else is currently en vogue at the drop of a hat. "Public opinion" is, in such a system, more akin to an "official opinion".
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Transparency won't help. They will just tune the rules to oppress the people they don't like, the same way as they quite openly gerrymander and suppress voters or craft laws that disproportionately criminalize one particular group.
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Transparency won't help. They will just tune the rules to oppress the people they don't like, the same way as they quite openly gerrymander and suppress voters or craft laws that disproportionately criminalize one particular group.
Exactly!
Just think of all possible damage that ideologues of all political kinds could do with such system.
"Did not go to church on Sunday -1 point" is as damaging to freedom as "Stared at a young woman's ass -1 point".
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Re:Needs to be transparent (Score:5, Insightful)
We have "demerit" points on our drivers license here in Ontario. As long as the system is transparent (you broke this law, -25 points, you paid your tax on time, +2 points, etc.) then it's not so bad.
Really? What about...
Not recycling enough -1 point
Does not bike to work -1 point
Ate junk food -1 point
Does not exercise enough -1 point
Smoked near school -1 point
Watches online pornography -1 point
Neglected front lawn -1 point
Did not sign co-worker's birthday card -1 point
Cut someone off merging into highway -1 point
Likes to listen to loud music at home -1 point
Some other trivial bullshit -1 point
At what point would this become oppressive tyranny by points?
Re:Needs to be transparent (Score:5, Funny)
Criticized the point system -1000 points.
Let's take it a step further (Score:3)
Don't tell anyone what rises or lowers your score and you're one step closer to a religion.
But seriously, that would actually increase the effectiveness of something like this. Nobody is better at coming up with things to do and not to do than the people themselves, they'll regulate their lives in ways you wouldn't even think possible just to suck up to big daddy.
Could anyone stop the planet, I want to get off.
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A step further? FTFS:
I had actually planned on complaining "what good is a system of control if you're not going to tell people what you want to control" But you turned me around. Of course, you want to have vague rules.
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And the best part is that they'll bend over backwards and nobody can complain about your ridiculous rules and requirements because you never really imposed them. It wasn't you that told people to assemble in front of dear leader's statue and put down elaborate flower bouquets they get up for at 4am and weave before work with their bare hands, they do it because they love dear leader that much!
I Felt a Great Disturbance in the Force... (Score:4, Funny)
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of SJWs suddenly cried out in agreement and were suddenly scheming.
Karma (Score:3, Funny)
Obligatory (Score:5, Informative)
The Orville: Majority Rule
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
It's written in the Bible (Score:2, Interesting)
That's how I envisaged this passage would work:
And he [the "Beast"] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:16-17 King James Version)
You acts (symbolized by right hand) or thinking (symbolized by forehead) not conforming to society's norms (actually, what society is told the norms are - symbolized by the mark of the beast)? Then you will be censured by restricting your economic activities, even the unrelated ones.
Nice alpha testing there to smooth out the bugs before the international roll-out...
Then there's those Southern Baptists still waiting for the bar code and/or implanted microchip
Do not call it a social credit score (Score:2, Insightful)
It is not a social credit score. Social implies that it is somehow derived from how other people perceive you, where each person can have a greatly different view of you. It also implies that everyone is free to use, or not use, these scores as they see fit.
Neither is the case, there is nothing social about it. It is a mandatory government conformance and compliance score. It is an instrument of oppression.
Interesting thing (Score:5, Interesting)
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He knows if you've been naughty or nice (Score:4, Funny)
He knows if you've been naughty or nice. Maybe Xi is really Santa in disguise.
This is frightening (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is frightening (Score:5, Interesting)
It already does exist in the US, in various ways. Ask any convicted felon about their experiences finding work, applying for credit, getting housing... "serving your time" extends well past the prison term.
Re:This is frightening (Score:4, Insightful)
You may or may not have transgressed the law. You can't afford a lawyer and you're facing 14 charges with a combined 48 years in prison or a plea deal to do time served and a small fine.
You really think that should also include getting fucked over for the rest of your life?
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Yeah, and his advice will be "you're fucked, take the plea deal".
I don't think conviction rates in the US are accidentally inversely correlated with wealth.
Revocation or Denial of Passport (Score:2)
https://www.irs.gov/businesses... [irs.gov]
Starting January 22, 2018, passengers with a driver's license issued by a state that is still not compliant with the REAL ID Act (and has not been granted an extension) will need to show an alternative form of acceptable identification for domestic air travel to board their flight.
the nazis banned the jews from doing stuff (Score:2)
the nazis banned the jews from doing stuff and later on sent them off to camps.
consequences (Score:2)
Fraud, tax evasion and smoking in non-smoking areas can drop it
Yeah - there are consequences for these things here too. I guess the point is that they don't all add up against you but there again there are examples of harsher sentencing for repeat offenders, 3-strikes laws etc.
Thank you China (Score:3)
Let's all thank China for introducing this dystopian idea to the world, thus teaching everyone how dystopic this idea is.
If Apple had come up with this idea, we'd be fucked.
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Note that there are ways to earn money that don't involve "follow the law, work hard"...
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Actually, I know no ways to earn a lot of money where "work hard" is part of the equation.
Re:Some Merit (Score:5, Interesting)
Look at some of the current people in our government.
The problem with your idea is that those are the people who would decide what your "social score" is. Do you really think that the people who covered up Teddy Kennedy leaving a woman to die would have counted any of his anti-social behavior against him? Or that the people who are angry about Donald Trump's alleged sexual harassment but were OK with Bill Clinton's alleged rapes would have evenly applied "social scores"?
Basically, the concept only works if you have honest, trustworthy people to implement it, but if you have such people in positions of power, you don't need it.
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Even if Ted diddo that, he simply wasn't emotionally equiped to deal with the problem and has to be forgiven. After all, he is a Kennedy and they are all high IQ geniuses. The people that did the cover-up are the guilty one by hiding the truth from us.
See how easy it is to shift your social score to someone else?
The other smart Kennedy fly a plane into the ground.
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"Teddy Kennedy leaving a woman to die ... Donald Trump's alleged sexual harassment... Bill Clinton's alleged rapes..."
Why does this site have these throwaway politically charged comments modded up these days?
If by throwaway you mean relevant and ontopic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Some Merit (Score:3, Interesting)
My politically charged comments were to show that Trump's political opponents had just as well-known, and possibly more serious, cheating and crimes.
Unfortunately, the right-wing's failure to recognize Trump's own serious crimes and malfeasances is evident, as well as how the Clinton's accusers were guilty of many crimes, including Gingrich, Hyde, Hastert, Livingston and more. That, and how despite decades of trying, the right-wing still relies on specious claims like passing around the so-called "Death List" and completely misrepresenting situations like abortion or immigration.
Not to mention, more recently, characters like Moore himself. And dozen
Re: Some Merit (Score:2, Funny)
Yes we get it. Democrats bad, Republicans doubleplusgood.
This unthink certainly helped your social credit score comrade!
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Look at some of the current people in our government.
The problem with your idea is that those are the people who would decide what your "social score" is.
You mean, if you build this kind of apparatus, politicians you don't like might get to use it in the future? No way!!
Re:Some Merit (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had to come up with a name for this, it would be the "Monkey with a machine gun"-principle as I think that explains the idea itself pretty well.
Re:Some Merit (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing about planning any far reaching system is that you need to consider what the damage that can be done if people with less-than-noble intentions take control of the system and use it to further their own goals
That's the beauty of the Chinese system, Xi is already emperor for life. So that little problem was already sorted out first :)
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This is, in theory how "capitalism" and "the free market" work. They use these points for things called "money."
If the justice system was fair, you wouldn't need some secondary system to deal with "cheating and crimes [that] are well known."
Re:Some Merit (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is in the definition of "misbehave". Because even the examples you give send shivers up my spine. And we didn't even touch the usual "praise dear leader and love The Party" bits that will almost certainly make it into the fold.
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That is also something The Orville explored in the "Majority Rule" episode.
Re:Welcome to the world predicted in Black Mirror! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a horrifying idea none the less and only made even more horrifying by now having been implemented in the worst way possible in real life. Then again considering all the outrageous ways China has tried to control it's population over the decades in an effort to stop them from realizing the absurdity of their one party system this is probably business as usual from their perspective. If you can get thrown into some local Stasi equivalent's jail with nothing resembling a trial and coerced into confessing to all kinds of crazy things just for running a bookstore that sells books critical of the ruling party and system this may not even register for a lot people.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
It's not going to register with people (Score:2)
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Speaking out against government? No flying. Voicing your concern over a policy that negatively affects you? No school for your kids.
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Either way, I confidently predict widespread hacking, with serious consequences.
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Yeah, what a perfect hacking target! It can range from manipulating scores for profit, making your elected officials have really bad scores, slowly and secretly poisoning the data until it's no longer trusted, to destroying it and keeping it destroyed.
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Voicing your concern over a policy that negatively affects you? No school for your kids.
We're already almost there. Express any concerns about your kids getting "educated" on the current government's ideas of sexual morality? You're some kind of antisocial weirdo.
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I agree, when has "abstinence only" sex ed ever worked?
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So, you could, for instance, invest in some local firm or support some party member.
So at least a solution for rich people exists. Whew. For a moment I was worried the law would apply to them for a change.
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Devil's advocate here: Shouldn't the West adopt this method?
No.
This can penalize unpopular behaviors as well
Thank you for highlight one reason why.
giving ardent 2A supporters the choice between having military weapons or being able to interact and have full access to society's benefits will definitely be useful
Only for people that don't believe in democracy.
They can either give up membership, or be part of society; not both.
If thoughtcrime becomes illegal you're the first cunt against the wall.
Everyone has a level playing field.
Oh sweet sweet summer child.
Overall, this might be viewed as a tool of a repressive government
..because it is.
realistically, this is a way to keep order
So is the gulag system. I don't support that either.
and is the best thing modern technology has for doing so
I reject your 'order' and will happily do so with extreme violence. Fuck you and your authoritarianism.
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Yeah, those assholes for making shit up and ruining people's lives.
Hmm, that reminds me. I wonder what deplorable is being kicked off Twitter or Facebook today. Probably yet another racist sexist xenophobe misogynist transphobic fascist nazi who absolutely deserved it by expressing a harmful or divisive opinion that disagreed with our political stance. It's amazing how many of these dumbasses don't realize that Free speech has its consequences.