Facial Scanning Now Arriving At US Airports (npr.org) 79
According to a report via NPR, a Geneva-based company called SITA that develops information technology for the world's airlines has installed facial scanning cameras at Orlando International Airport. "Britain-bound passengers -- some wearing Mickey Mouse T-shirts and other Disney paraphernalia -- lined up at Gate 80 recently for the evening British Airways flight to London's Gatwick Airport," reports NPR. "It looks like any other airport departure area, except for the two small gates with what look like small boxes on posts next to them. Those boxes are actually cameras." From the report: Sherry Stein, a senior manager at SITA, says the cameras are triggered when passengers step onto designated footprints. "We collect a photo, send it to CBP, who checks to make sure that person is booked on the manifest and matches the photo that they already have on file." If everything matches, Stein says, "we open the doors and give them the OK to board." All that happens, she says, "in three to five seconds." If things don't match, the traveler's passport is scanned manually by a gate agent. CBP is testing biometric scanning at a dozen or so U.S. international airports to ensure that people leaving the country are who they say they are, and to prevent visa overstays. The Transportation Security Administration, another agency within the Department of Homeland Security, is testing similar devices at security check-in lines.
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Re:I thought this was already a thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is an old story. We hashed this to death a couple of months ago.
Data Collection and Individual Liberty (Score:3)
How is it an issue?
You already need a passport with a photo. How is taking an up to date photo a problem?
It's not a problem per se. However, some people don't like it because of how the information will be used or because of how they're afraid the information will be used. The general rule in a free society should be defense-in-depth of that freedom, which includes both limiting the amount of information about an individual that the government collects and limiting the ways in which the government can use the collected information.
We have relatively small limits on these things. The most significant is a mostl
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People with a total lack of awareness about the survelliance state we already live in are suddenly shocked by this. This is finally something that they can relate to.
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Re:I thought this was already a thing? (Score:4, Informative)
The court approved question would be are you a US citizen and that would provide a location to place sets of cameras.
The same secure location would then be used as cover for drug enforcement to take a image of the driver, passenger, back/front license plate.
So that was data was always getting collected all around the USA. license plate.
Now the same is going to be extra legal at every other location.
Bus, train, airport, port, toll roads... any location where the population gets collected at.
What was once Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] is now going to be fixed CCTV in public and private partnerships.
A Domain Awareness System for all of the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] .
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Russians must be laughing their asses off at us. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Agreed. For as much as Russia has and keeps doing, we seem hellbent on racing to catch up to them.
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where you needed permission to leave the country.
You don't need permission to leave the country. You need permission to enter if you aren't a resident, and some people are avoiding that step. They're also avoiding leaving when their permission runs out.
Re:Russians must be laughing their asses off at us (Score:4)
If they screen people when they leave, how long before they start restricting citizens from leaving? A "no travel list" vs a "no fly list" -- people will start finding themselves on it due to unpopular views. Remember, the current administration is known for extreme pettiness.
Government shouldn't be given this power.
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If they screen people when they leave, how long before they start restricting citizens from leaving?
I can play that game, too. If they keep citizens from leaving, how long before they shoot you to death while standing in line? This is fun. Can we make up more fanciful stuff instead of talk about what is actually happening?
You probably don't realize, if the government really wanted to stop people from leaving they'd implement customs and immigration exit points like a lot of other countries already do. For example, when you exit Germany, you go through immigration where they stamp your passport and check
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In Germany, you can literally walk across the French border without being screened. e.g.
http://static.panoramio.com/ph... [panoramio.com]
BTW, as far as the shooting example, if they murder you, they can't milk you for tax money for the rest of your life. In East Germany, they let you leave at age 60, when you were no longer useful to the State. Who says the US won't do the same to prevent a "brain drain", considering the current tide of anti-intellectualism that will likely send smart, productive people running.
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In Germany, you can literally walk across the French border without being screened. e.g.
What does that have to do with what happens at an airport?
The rest of this flight of fiction could be fascinating, but not tonight. It's a waste of time playing "what if" games.
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What difference does it make whether you leave the country by air, train, or foot for the purpose of immigration enforcement?
If you're leaving for a non-Schengen destination by air, you'll go through border controls before boarding the plane. If you're flying to another point within the Schengen Area, you don't even need your passport, just your state-issued ID card showing that you're a Schengen national. Doesn't matter if the airport's in Germany, France, or even Sweden. If you're crossing a land border between two Schengen countries, you generally just walk, ride, or drive past the little "Welcome to $country" sign by the side
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I hate flying now. Every trip reminds me of how an attack by few men with a few planes has us throwing out the Constitution. The attack was terrible, but the fact that bin Laden predicted it would lead to a U.S. government crackdown on its own citizens really pisses me off.
We should have been better, braver.
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Russians must be laughing their asses off at the Americans. During Soviet times, bet they didn't think that the US would move towards a system just like theirs or East Germany's, where you needed permission to leave the country.
Please show me airport taking an international flight where your passport is not checked on exit.
Schengen zone excepted of course.
Seriously I'm struggling with this concept. Exit checks have been part of flying since flying existed. Errr. actually since passports existed. These cameras are also in airports all over the world and I actually think the USA are among the last to get them.
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Lay off the crack pipe. As bad as the Big Brother nonsense has become, it is nothing remotely like what people had to deal with on the other side of the Iron Curtain.
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Re:Boring (Score:5, Insightful)
"All this is is replacing a human with a computer."
The human who looked at me and compared my face to the photo has forgotten my face about a minute after processing me and no permanent record was made of it.
The computer stores that photo forever in a searchable database. So... yeah... its completely different.
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The computer stores that photo forever in a searchable database. So... yeah... its completely different.
Your photo is already in a searchable database. Your travel data is already in a searchable database. It's not "completely different".
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My passport photo is in a searchable database.
My travel data is already in a searchable database.
My photo taken as I cross each border is NOT.
It is very different to have a single photo taken for an identification paperwork to being photographed everywhere you go.
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My photo taken as I cross each border is NOT.
Big deal. They can look up your photo they already have from your travel data.
It is very different to have a single photo taken for an identification paperwork to being photographed everywhere you go.
Then don't go to an airport because they already video everyone there.
There really is nothing new they are learning about you by this system. You don't even know that they are keeping the facial scan once you leave, you're just making that part up. We can make up all kinds of evil things, but unless they actually happen they're just make-believe intended to create more flames than info.
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"Then don't go to an airport because they already video everyone there."
And until recently surveillance video was pretty ephemeral, and even if they hung onto, virtually worthless unless someone was paid to watch it, looking for you. It's a pretty new development that they can even theoretically make automated use of it, and track people recorded in surveillance footage.
"You don't even know that they are keeping the facial scan once you leave, you're just making that part up."
I know you aren't that naive.
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virtually worthless unless someone was paid to watch it, looking for you.
They don't have to look for you. They have you scanning your boarding pass at TSA, and then again at the gate when you get on. Two specific times where they know who you are and where you are standing. Make that three if you check in at the airport. If you don't think they can correlate the video they are already collecting with those times, then you aren't a very good conspiracy theorist, are you?
I know you aren't that naive.
In other words, you are making that part up. Thanks for admitting it. As for me being naive, who is it that thi
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If you don't think they can correlate the video they are already collecting with those times, then you aren't a very good conspiracy theorist, are you?"
So let me get this straight; I'm "making it up" by asserting they keep the photo they take at the automated passport control terminal. But, you are going to assert, without any proof, that they've kept all the surveillance video. In what universe does that make sense? Where they keep all surveillance VIDEO of the hallways.. .but discard the PHOTOS at passpo
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If you don't think they can correlate the video they are already collecting with those times, then you aren't a very good conspiracy theorist, are you?"
That's what I said about you.
So let me get this straight; I'm "making it up" by asserting they keep the photo they take at the automated passport control terminal.
You had no support for that claim when I suggested you were, so what should I assume? We're not talking about the "automated passport control terminal". That's done for inbound passengers from international flights.
But, you are going to assert, without any proof, that they've kept all the surveillance video.
I made no such claim. I said that they can easily match your image in that video with your location at up to at least three specific places where you must present ID of some kind. Whether they keep the rest of the video or not is irrelevant.
Where they keep all surveillance VIDEO of the hallways.. .
You're the only one talking
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I don't remember if you specifically made that claim
Yes, it was you. You said:
My passport photo is in a searchable database. My travel data is already in a searchable database. My photo taken as I cross each border is NOT.
Your photo is almost certainly being taken at each of three points as you depart through that airport. Either you assume they're going to keep all the photos they take of you or you dont' assume that. If you assume they do, they you can't claim that this facial recognition system gives them anything new, because they've already got the photos of you traveling. In fact, they'll have a photo of you as you are scanning your boarding pass -- the same point in your travel that the facia
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The human who looked at me and compared my face to the photo has forgotten my face about a minute after processing me and no permanent record was made of it.
Then you weren't paying attention to what he did with your passport while you were busy looking at his face.
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Making a copy of my password photo is not the same as taking another picture of me.
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Making a copy of my password photo is not the same as taking another picture of me.
Not making a copy, they have that already. But rather logging in or out. There's really no reason they need another picture of you on file, they have that already and it was part of your passport application.
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The part im offended by is taking and keeping more pictures, and recording more interactions.
I couldn't care less that various countries record that I arrived or departed. Or that they can see my passport photo.
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Illegal migrants who could used their decades of created papers where once assured that the papers on the day would never be cross referenced with any other deeper US federal and state, city databases due to federal "privacy" laws.
With advanced new CCTV getting every face that search could be wide and deep into many very different US databases.
Criminal, courts, FBI, state, city, federal, DMV, publi
Epic fail (Score:5, Interesting)
No matter how good a percentage you have (below 100%, of course), the birthday paradox will give you a ton of false positives.
It's because you're actually doing N*(N-1) comparisons, where N ::= (the number of passenger a day at the airport + the number of crooks you're looking for). For a probability of 1-(1/365) (ie, 99.7% accuracy), you get a 100% chance of a false positive after 367 people... see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The German security service supposedly identified somebody's grandmother as a terrorist, and stopped the experiment abruptly.
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So what's the advantage of this system then? To line the pockets of another useless contractor?
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So what's the advantage of this system then?
You are really asking if they aren't comparing people's birthdays as a means of identifying immigration scofflaws then what's the advantage? Really? The advantage is pretty clear. Using birthdays to determine identity is pretty stupid, but facial recognition isn't. If your face matches the face of someone who entered the country on a short-term visa and you were supposed to have left already, you're caught. If your face doesn't match the face that was recorded when you entered, then you're not the person wh
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No, I mean seeing that the end arbiter is a human, how is this expensive system with a 100% chance of false positives any better than just a human?
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No, I mean seeing that the end arbiter is a human, how is this expensive system with a 100% chance of false positives any better than just a human?
Do you participate in any of the autonomous vehicle discussions? I'd be fascinated to know your stand on "computers are better"/"humans are better" in that context.
Humans get tired, they get distracted, they get bored. The end arbiter is not a human for most cases. For most cases the computer will say "ok" and the gates open. Only for those that the computer generates a false (or real) positive does a human get involved.
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When they do a cost/benefit analysis, I'll be impressed. Clearly an expensive solution looking for a problem.
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No, because the amount of real positives is still incredibly small they'll actually be more distracted and bored.
Wrong. They will have other tasks to do -- the same tasks they do now. And it is hard to be distracted when the line comes to a complete stop with a "bong" sound and the human must focus on the task of comparing IDs for just ten seconds or so.
The TSA droid who checks IDs and boarding passes does the same thing over and over and over. The gate agent who is called to verify an ID is doing a single thing upon demand that has to be resolved.
Will gate agents get into the habit of pencil-whipping approvals? M
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So what's the advantage of this system then?
1. Cheaper
2. Faster
3. More accurate
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The stated first purpose of the system is well served, but unless there is a law in place (PIPEDA in Canada) to force them to be used for only that purpose and then discarded, the images can then be used for the second purpose, "to ensure that people leaving the country are who they say they are, and to prevent visa overstays", as well as any third, fourth or fifth purpose that CBP (which standa for "Customs and Border Patrol") may see as desirable. The first may well work, but the second necessarily fails,
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No matter how good a percentage you have (below 100%, of course), the birthday paradox will give you a ton of false positives. It's because you're actually doing N*(N-1) comparisons, where N ::= (the number of passenger a day at the airport + the number of crooks you're looking for).
No it doesn't - they're not looking whether you match one of a list of crooks. From the article, "We collect a photo, send it to CBP, who checks to make sure that person is booked on the manifest and matches the photo that they already have on file.". From that description they're solely measuring your photo now against your photo on file.
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From the article, "We collect a photo, send it to CBP, who checks to make sure that person is booked on the manifest and matches the photo that they already have on file.". From that description they're solely measuring your photo now against your photo on file.
Yeah, this seems like a fairly innocent check that replaces the cursory glance the airport staff would have at your ID, if you look kinda like yourself you'll probably pass. My guess is that this is about getting the camel's nose in the tent though, once people have accepted a machine scanning them for identification it'll be upgraded to a Windows Hello/Apple iPhoneX facial scan, I mean this is already consumer technology and you don't have a "problem" with poor lighting or hats or sunglasses or whatever, i
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The birthday problem has zero relevance here and you seem to have a backwards understanding of what they're even trying to do (based on their claims), not to mention how the statistics should be applied.
A) This is happening at the gate in place of scanning boarding passes. They aren't comparing you against crooks at this step, nor does it make sense for them to bother; they're comparing you against the passenger manifest to make sure you're on the right flight.
B) As such, a false positive isn't a problem fo
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The German security service supposedly identified somebody's grandmother as a terrorist, and stopped the experiment abruptly.
Clearly you haven't flown in an out of Germany ... or any non US city for that matter. This is no more a problem than standard human checks and is resolved in exactly the same way.
Note a friend of mine entered and exited China on his brother's passport. They all look the same jokes aside, they really look nothing alike.
figures (Score:2)
I thought the department of homeland security was a temporary thing. Yet here you are now, 17 years later. And they have money to advocate for anything they want to do, the same as your ministries of education and health.
Amazing how that happens.
Why do we need visas in the first place? (Score:2)
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Criminal recidivists (and their crimes) are well known to authorities. I mean why harass millions of travelers at airports to catch dealers when they deal practically openly on city streets.
Really? So the government of Botswana knows about all the criminals in Moldova? Visas are used to enter a country and determine what permissions you have (I.E. in regards to employment and residency). These cameras are for leaving a country. Its still nothing but pointless security theatre (well, I'm sure someone is making money off it) but its got absolutely nothing to do with visas.
Visa overstays (Score:2)