12 Days In Xinjiang - China's Surveillance State (business-standard.com) 132
Long-time Slashdot reader b0s0z0ku writes: China has turned Xinjiang, the Northwestern part of the country surrounding Urumqi, into one of the most advanced surveillance states in the world. Officially, the purpose is to prevent terrorism and control resistance to the government in one of the few parts of China where ethnic Chinese are a minority.
From routine use of facial recognition cameras, to police checkpoints where people's cell phones randomly are checked for unauthorized software, to needing to swipe an ID card and be photographed to buy gasoline and other necessities, the level of technology — and control — is frightening and awe-inspiring.
From routine use of facial recognition cameras, to police checkpoints where people's cell phones randomly are checked for unauthorized software, to needing to swipe an ID card and be photographed to buy gasoline and other necessities, the level of technology — and control — is frightening and awe-inspiring.
Unless they use Apple facial recognition software (Score:1)
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Plus all Chinese look the same.
It’s not a problem; it’s the Uyghur they are monitoring.
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Awe-inspiring? (Score:1)
If it's frightening and you still find that awe-inspiring, there's something wrong in your fucking brain.
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How is it worse that the USA's mysterious "no-fly" lists or the TSA groping everybody who wants to travel somewhere in the USA?
Re:Awe-inspiring? (Score:4, Informative)
How is it worse that the USA's mysterious "no-fly" lists or the TSA groping everybody who wants to travel somewhere in the USA?
In its scope, if nothing else. Checkpoints every couple hundred yards, mass examination of cell phones, forbidden apps, entry/exit of the region strictly controlled and recorded, etc. TSA has nothing approaching this, and it's limited mostly to airports (although it's showing up increasingly at other transportation hubs). And this is only the beginning. China is working its way toward a system of scoring all of its citizens regarding their social value, kind of like a FICO score except encompassing one's entire life and social interactions. The score will in part determine your qualification for good jobs, housing, credit, etc. It's positively diabolical in that one's associations with others enters into the score, so there'll be a penalty if you hang around with folks who have low-scores, meaning society itself will be enlisted in assuring conformance to whatever code authorities want enforced.
Hundreds vs billions, maybe? (Score:4, Insightful)
> How is it worse that the USA's mysterious "no-fly" lists
There are two lists called "no-fly" lists. One is an actual list of people not allowed to fly on US airlines. It includes a couple hundred people who have been actively involved in plotting hijackings and that sort of thing.
The other list, thousands of people (out of 300 million) are people whom the FBI wants to talk to before they leave the country, or enter the country. It applies to international flights.
There are a bunch of listed people the FBI wants to talk to if they try to come into the US. How is that different from everyone having to show ID and be tracked by the government every time they buy gas, you ask.
There are, of course, legitimate concerns about these lists. The FBI should probably be more transparent about them. By pretending it's the same thing as the government tracking everything all citizens do, one sounds quite silly and tends to encourage readers to see criticism of the FBI lists as silly in general. It's like comparing red-light cameras to Nazi concentration camps - the comparison is so ridiculous that it undermines the argument against red-light cameras.
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A relative tried to fly to the USA as he occasionally did. Got told at the gate that he was on the no fly list and couldn't go. He was confused, and arguing got him nowhere. He was leaving but went back and asked if there was an age for the person who was on the list. It was something like 25, and he 60ish, said "do I look 25?". They said no, and let him fly.
Captcha: circus
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How is it worse that the USA's mysterious "no-fly" lists or the TSA groping everybody who wants to travel somewhere in the USA?
I noticed the other day that all forms of non-local travel in the US including buses and trains now require government approved identification. The exceptions are taking a private vehicle in which case you need a driver's license if you drive or walking.
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"if the government is in the interests of the people, why would anyone resist it?"
In a people internally divided they can't serve all of their interests. Religion obviously being the main sticking point, highly dogmatic religions obviously being the most difficult to accommodate, orthodox Sunni Islam obviously being the major creator of problems.
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(posting as AC because what I'm going to say is going to hurt some feelings...)
I live in a part of Asia and we get regular news about this. The Uighur are straight up terrorists - they're basically the Palestinians of the far east. Their leader is completely dedicated to keep her tribe as violent as possible until China just lets them have autonomy on the territory, at which point they would basically live as uncivilized dirt farmers. The fact that they're still around and haven't just been erased shows the
Re:Opportunities (Score:5, Insightful)
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When I was in China the Uighurs sold us hash in baseball-sized chunks. They owned restaurants where they served Uighur noodles and bread like pizza but fluffier. They were cool and did not look Chinese. Apparently they smoke hash all the time.
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The Uighur are an ethnic group they have their own Turkic language and have had a unique written language for over 1000 years with a great history of poetry and literature, yet the Chinese government won't let them teach their children in their language. What's going ahead in Xinjiang (Uighurstan) is an concerted program of cultural extinction. If this was happening to your ethnic group in your area you'd feel threatened, be insecure, get angry and some of your more excitable and braver friends would reso
Re: Opportunities (Score:2)
I live in a part of Asia and we get regular news about this. The Uighur are straight up terrorists
And of course your "news" is unbiased and objective. Hint: you're either a brainwashed moron or (more likely) a Chinese govt shill. Either way, fuckoff and die.
The future of multiculturalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Low trust, high tech society => surveillance society.
This is the future you choose.
Re:The future of multiculturalism (Score:4, Interesting)
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I live in an actual multi-cultural country, people who do not live in an actual multi-cultural country do not understand them at all. Basically multi-cultural does not mean pockets of differing cultures in different zones, that is not it at all. Multi-culture is you the individual, picking from the bits of culture representing to create your own individual culture that you share with others, there might be one culture that more represents you and that culture you in a way promote a bit more than the others.
Re:The future of multiculturalism (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought it would have been obvious that what breeds a surveillance state is the *state* who runs it, not the ethnicity of the people. But these days, I guess attacking Communism isn't enough - the core values of our nation must be assaulted as well.
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Sure, but the story makes the point that it's worst in that region. By multiculturalism and communism combined we get Xinjiang.
It's also true that China itself turned the region multicultural, but that's still not a ringing endorsement of multiculturalism.
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The US is one of the most diverse, multicultural countries on earth. Okay, they do have a powerful domestic surveillance programme too, but are definitely more free than the Chinese.
Nope (Score:2)
China realizes they need to keep radical Islam in check. Make it so inconvenient that they move back to their own shitty countries. After fleeing said shitty countries the first thing they do is make the new country more like the one they just left.
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Their own shitty countries? The Muslims of Xinjiang are Chinese, and their ancestors have been Chinese for thousands of years.
Re: Nope (Score:3)
The Muslims of Xinjiang are Chinese
So you know nothing about the region whatsoever; well done.
It won't end there (Score:3)
To steal an infamous line from Chateau Heartiste/Roissy: "diversity + proximity = war."
Identity politics is just the first stage as every non-white minority trends toward cohesive identity groups if they aren't already.
The old order was based on a simple formula:
1. At least 80% white majority.
2. 20% or so minorities and tolerance for diversity because it was really just "cultural flavor."
3. Minorities can be separate ethnoi when they want to be, but whites cannot.
Now that the white majority is demographical
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Identity politics is just the first stage as every non-white minority trends toward cohesive identity groups if they aren't already.
I'm curious as to why you exclude white minorities from that statement. Do you perhaps think there is something special about the identity of white people that makes them immune to such identity politics?
Terrorism (Score:5, Insightful)
The greatest thing to happen to those in power. The perfect blank check to get the public to agree to slavery.
We in the West... (Score:5, Insightful)
think we are immune to this, but's it's being rolled out in the form of collusion between corporations and government. Almost every adult in the West carries a mobile phone--a veritable electronic leash. We "allow" ourselves to be tracked constantly, manipulated by ads, all in the name of "free" services and conveniences. How long before the aforementioned collusion turns ugly? How long before we have a National ID card in the US? There are already random stops along certain highways in the US. Whatever happened to free, unmolested travel? How long before we hear "Papers, please."
Google and other tech companies are literally sucking the privacy out of the air. Wait... that's already happened. How long before ordering a pizza really is a matter of convincing the pizza company you really want pepperoni and sausage, but because they are "jacked in" to the system, they advise you your cholesterol is too high and add a surcharge and then report you to your insurance company.
The only way to win is to not play the game.
My own employer has started the nonsense of requiring annual physicals and nicotine tests. Failure to comply results in two monthly penalties of $50 for each. I refused and will happily pay the penalty. My employer has no right to know about my cholesterol levels, my blood sugar, etc. The draconian system is coming, but we're the frogs in a slowly heating pot of water. Most of us are too stupid to realize it's coming.
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You are obviously a proponent of big, heavy-handed government. Freedom comes with danger. Being controlled is evil and wrong. People want to be free. That's why no one is clamoring to move to Russia or China. There are no basic freedoms there. A man cannot even own a gun for protection in most countries. I'll keep my danger and my freedom, thank you. You can have your draconian government telling you what to do and when. America is the greatest social experiment in the history of the world. It's not perfect
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"A man cannot even own a gun for protection in most countries....we are more free than any nation in history."
Your definition of freedom amounting to owning a gun...suggest bigger problems.
FWIW (Score:2)
Well put.
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Guns are no freedom at all, they are a burden, a weight, and a chain.
Owning a gun only means you have chosen to carry the onus of taking a life, and gives you nothing more, and certainly does not serve to protect you from the forces of oppression as well as you might purport. A symbol of freedom? No, it's the tool often used to take away your freedoms.
Re: We in the West... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, you are free to take lives of other people in America. Unlike here in Europe, where we allow that priviledge only to trained people we call police (don't have capital punishment), who know when killing someone is considered lesser evil. Also, having access a weapon/gun during an argument increases the chance that someone dies. I'm surr there is no connection with mass shootings in schools, ghettos...
Re: We in the West... (Score:2)
You seem to believe that everyone wants to move to America. That's not actually the truth, you know - many, many people prefer countries / areas like the UK, Scandinavia, Australia, NZ, and Germany where owning a gun is heavily regulated, and they don't have the "freedom" to opt out of healthcare.
Americans often take it as a fact that theirs is the best country in the world. That is debatable, and easy access to guns does not make it so.
Re: We in the West... (Score:2)
That is debatable, and easy access to guns does not make it so.
You're right; being able to protect yourself and your family is definitely not up for debate, although there certainly seem to be more than a few naive idealists who've been brainwashed to believe that gov't can and will always be there to protect them, objectively and impartially.
As a progressive and open-minded freethinker, I detest labels; that having been said, I've noticed a preponderance of those self-identitying as "liberal" often reveal themselves to be thin-skinned, passive-aggressive tyrants...
Re: We in the West... (Score:1)
Fair call about labels, however I don't see the utility of guns to protect myself or my family against a government with attack helicopters.
To my mind, the only protection we have against government is money and influence.
Re: We in the West... (Score:2)
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I believe the "random checks" the GP is talking about are those where your ID is checked and records of where you are are kept. Also, they check your BAC. It's not mandated in most states that your tires meet and minimum requirements or (in any I am aware of) that you have basic medical equipment. You have to get your car inspected once every year or so to prove it is non-polluting, so you cna update your license plate.
And, you tend not to need hundreds of different documents. Usually you need some pict
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If you think checking for flat tires is a government function, you might get a kick out of the reaction that Republicans had when then-Senator-Running-For-President Obama suggested that people ensure their personal tires were inflated so they would get better gas mileage and save money. (During the Great Recession's start) You would have thought it was some horrific attack on fundamental rights - they had negative mottos on tire gauges they passed out, etc. Heck, even /. was stupid about it (but what els
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How long before we have a National ID card in the US?
I've always failed to see the common point between an ID card and a surveillance society. A card is necessary for your interactions with your gov. Even in the US without officially having one, you still have one in practice, but it's worse because it's an insecure mash-up, part driver's license, part SSID number, leading to a fuckton of identity theft. We've had ID cards in Europe for generations and we currently have a less fucked up and 'curious' state. Fight the establishment of a police state any which
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And yet you couldn't wait to get on here to tell us all about it?
Re: We in the West... (Score:2)
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That's nice, but I need to fly.
We, in the East? (Score:2)
"When one looks inside of the home of people without their permisssion, it becomes permissible for them to gouge out his eye."
(Muslim)
"Were a man to look into your home/private property wihtout your permission, and were you to pelt him with pebbles and knock out his eye, there would be no sin upon you."
(Bukhari & Muslim)
Ah (Score:2)
All reactionaries are paper tigers.
Low tech similar (Score:2, Interesting)
In Myanmar, you're not allowed to travel from one province to another without written permission and a reason, even within just Myanmar free travel is restricted. The army is quite small, the people quite large in number, by dividing them geographically, it lets the military keep hold/track of a large populace with a small force.
The divide and conquer strategy, divide people with divisive policies, set them fighting against each other at every opportunity, then take advantage of the division. Here it's geog
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How do they do it in Japan?
Re: Low tech similar (Score:2)
Hand-held scanning of phone apps is advanced? (Score:1)
It takes a village to overcome irony (Score:2)
That approach doesn't work as an individual because the people you email with will use gmail, you will be on endless surveillance cameras as you move walk around or drive, and your family and friends will post pictures including you to anti-social media. We essentially either move forward as a community or we all sink together.
Alternatively, you can live as a self-sufficient hermit or in a small group like in "Captain Fantastic" but even that can break down as social reality intrudes through family relation
standard response (Score:4, Insightful)
China has turned Xinjiang, the Northwestern part of the country surrounding Urumqi, into one of the most advanced surveillance states in the world.
Cue obligatory Slashdotters with standard response...
...in 3, 2, 1...
"Yeah, well the USA is twenty-five times worse!!"
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I'm in China at the moment. The Great Firewall is a real pain. Every network I connect to seems extent dodgy, with all sorts of weird inference. I usually use a VPN or Tor for all internet access, but here both are blocked.
The Transparent Society (1998) (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
"The Transparent Society (1998) is a non-fiction book by the science-fiction author David Brin in which he forecasts social transparency and some degree of erosion of privacy, as it is overtaken by low-cost surveillance, communication and database technology, and proposes new institutions and practices that he believes would provide benefits that would more than compensate for lost privacy. The work first appeared as a magazine article by Brin in Wired in late 1996.[1] In 20
Inside China's New Experiment in Social Ranking (Score:5, Informative)
More on what is going on in China: https://www.wired.com/story/ag... [wired.com]
Re: The Transparent Society (1998) (Score:2)
To paraphrase Pogo (Score:1)
Re: To paraphrase Pogo (Score:2)
collider CAPTCHA: malice (Score:1)
Melania says Donald got a big hadron when he read this, so, thanks a lot.
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Why are the Chinese there in the first place? To control the Uighurs? Why don't the Chinese get the fuck out where they are not wanted?
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Not control, replacement.
A clash of civilizations is is taking place in Xinjiang, between a pseudo-Islam increasing being dragged to Sunni fundamentalism by Middle East money (just like all the other pseudo Islamic religions in Asia and the Balkans) and China's pseudo-communism. The latter was winning through demography for a while, but the low birthrates of Han Chinese present a problem.
Re: Needed against moslems. (Score:2)