Venezuela Will Force Bitcoin Miners To Register With the Government (themerkle.com) 152
schwit1 shares a report from The Merkle: No one will be surprised to hear the Venezuelan government isn't too keen on Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Since Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies can't be regulated or controlled by the government in any official capacity, they could damage the country's brittle economy even further. As a result, the government has imposed new rules for anyone mining cryptocurrency. To be more specific, all miners will now be taxed and required to register with the government. Being taxed is not entirely illogical, but the registration requirement is pretty worrisome, to say the least. The government shouldn't need to know who is doing what in regards to crypto trading and mining. Nevertheless, authorities want to know who is mining, where they are located, and what type of equipment they use. "That'll put food back on the shelves," adds schwit1.
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Same way they track people who grow pot in their homes, I suspect.
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Same way they track people who grow pot in their homes, I suspect.
By tracking who buys all the boxes of Betty Crocker brownie mix?
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More like how Stalin registered all the Jews and sent the useless ones to Siberia.
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Actually they can detect the same way... energy usage ...
small setups undetected, but they will mine little. Big setups will eat lot of energy, so they can be detected if they check that...
mining also require more cooling than pot, so check who is buying AC systems when there is little food and you can find then too.
Re:Not even enforceable (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how they'll track miners.
They could track them by electricity use. Venezuela gives away electricity for almost nothing, less than 1 cent/kwhr, which makes it an attractive place to run miners, as well as other activities that squander energy.
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Like dorm electricity. When I was in school, electricity in the dorms wasn't metered, at least not at our level. I guess they paid a flat fee per dorm to the utility based on averages. We used to joke about electroplating stuff in the dorms. Nobody ever did, and in those days there the penalty for merely having an ounce of pot was quite severe, never mind growing it. Bitcoin? Inconceivable. I wonder what's going on in sweltering-hot dorm rooms these days... aside from the usual antics.
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I wonder how they'll track miners.
They could track them by electricity use. Venezuela gives away electricity for almost nothing, less than 1 cent/kwhr, which makes it an attractive place to run miners, as well as other activities that squander energy.
That way they'll find all the pot growers as well.
Venezuela is a bad place to run a bitcoin mine because basics like water and electricity are... transient things. if you were running a bitcoin mining farm, you wouldn't be relying on government electricity
This is just another pointless edict from a despotic government (that wont be overthrown any time soon as the Vz govt controls the military).
If you're thinking of mining coin in South America, I'd recommend next door in Colombia. Some of their cit
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I wonder how they'll track miners.
In a collapsed socialist economy, miners will be the only large users of electricity.
Re:Not even enforceable (Score:4)
In Finland the taxman has sent letters to persons asking them to declare their income from bitcoin. Be it mining or just a trading wins, the taxman want's his share (30%) of the profit.
How do they know? Oh the joys of modern and organized society: They ask companies who do bitcoin business (sell/buy) for their ledgers and identify persons from there and then contact those persons. In modern western society, every transaction leaves a trace. Just a matter of getting the data from the right place. Thus as soon as you want to convert your (semi)anonymous virtual currency to real world currency, you create a trace which can be picked up.
EU is very hard on money laundering, all bank transfers are more or less monitored. For example, a person made a 65€ bank transfer and wrote to recipient as "isi" (That's "daddy" in Finnish). The person was contacted by the bank tp clarify the transaction, just incase the person was attempting to give money to embargoed recipient (Isis?)(*). One might laugh on this stupid false positive, but it does give out the fact that even the smallest money transfers are monitored.
(*) https://translate.google.com/t... [google.com]
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The same way they come up with electric bills. A guy I worked with was running some miners. The power company contacted him because his power usage was so high they were certain something was malfunctioning. He was using something like 20x the average power of a house. Tracking it would be trivial.
And in a country where electricity is subsidized by the government (everyone else) that 20x power consumption amounts almost to stealing from everyone else (the rest of the country is paying for you to get rich).
As you say, they should be easy to track, and whereas I don't agree with Venezuela's form of government, the government in that case absolutely has the right, and moral responsibility to track these people down and tax them accordingly.
Re: Not even enforceable (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know who this schwit1 is, but his comment "That'll put food back on the shelves" is completely moronic. The reason Venezuela has no food on their shelves is because the official exchange rate doesn't match the actual value of the bolivar, which means that it's basically fucking impossible to import anything, whether that is actual food or materials needed for farming. So given they can't exchange the bolivar for anything without going to jail, they'll need some other currency. Unlike the bolivar, bitcoin isn't experiencing hyperinflation, in fact the opposite is happening. Either way, unlike the bolivar, bitcoin is actually worth something, which means that they could import any goods they need with it. THAT will put food on the shelves, not Maduro's (and Chavez's) stupid policies which took food off of shelves to begin with. This is just another policy that will keep food off of shelves.
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Given Bitcoin's excessive fees and delays these days, it won't help with anything.
Litecoin, Dash, Monero... heck, even Dogecoin is better than Bitcoin.
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The problem is that Venezuela can't print bitcoin. It could mine them, but that isn't a solution.
Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:2)
"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?" - Senator Bernie Sanders
https://www.sanders.senate.gov... [senate.gov]
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The answer is nobody. Bananas are extinct.
Cheap electric rate (Score:1)
Mining virtual coin needs to use a lot of electricity, so if you are looking for cheap electricity, consider the small kingdom of Brunei
http://www.des.gov.bn/SitePages/Electricity%20Tariff.aspx
NEW ELECTRICITY TARIFF STRUCTURE
0001 kWh to 0600 kWh B$ 0.01 cents
0601 kWh to 2000 kWh B$ 0.08 cents
2001 kWh to 4000 kWh B$ 0.10 cents
4001 kWh and Above B$ 0.12 cents
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Sounds like the US dodged a bullet with that guy.
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Well, whether a dud bombshell is that much better...
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4% economic growth seems like a better choice than Venezuela-levels of poverty.
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Are you 4% richer or the rich? Ya know, that works in Venezuela, too, if you're part of the government cronies, you're by no means starving.
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Black Unemployment Rate Lowest in 17 Years [cnsnews.com]
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Yes, I always go to CNS News when I want to get my biased facts to support the right.
Re:Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unemployment is down? Great. How about earnings?
People need money. Not employment. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who finds enough things to do with my time, what I need is money. If you allow me to hold slaves, I am fairly sure I can ensure 100% of them will be working.
Republican Tax Plan (Score:2)
That part is coming, that's why they just lowered the tax brackets and changed withholding so that you have more takehome pay
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And who pays for that tax break?
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In the end, we all do, through inflation.
In fact, I consider that not a half bad idea. If it works, governments should retire debt and end income taxes by imposing measured money inflation.
It worked for Zimbabwe, didn't it?
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Unemployment is down? Great. How about earnings?
People need money. Not employment. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who finds enough things to do with my time, what I need is money. If you allow me to hold slaves, I am fairly sure I can ensure 100% of them will be working.
This, you can do all kinds of funky calculations to show different employment figures (either to make the govt of the day look good or bad), but the real test is how much disposable income you have (money after taxes) and how much discretionary income you have (money after taxes and essentials). Ultimately we want more people to have a high level of discretionary income.
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Your point being?
Frankly, if what you pay ain't worth my time, don't expect me to waste my time on you.
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To be fair "these days [senate.gov]" was referring to 2011, when that article by Sanders was written. A time when the Venezuelan economy was rebounding [wordpress.com]. Two years before Maduro was even sworn in.
Re:Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:4)
Even 2011, Venezuela was awful; it just was able to paper it over with huge oil exports. Then the bottom fell out of oil prices and Venezuela's lottery prize ran out.
Re:Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair "these days [senate.gov]" was referring to 2011, when that article by Sanders was written. A time when the Venezuelan economy was rebounding [wordpress.com]. Two years before Maduro was even sworn in.
To be really fair, when someone predicts something and their prediction turns out accurate, then their hypothesis is *probably* correct.
Like if, for example, someone in 2011 said "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", and Sanders points to Venezuela as an argument that they do indeed work, the future collapse of Venezuela provides support for the statement "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", not for whatever counter-argument Sanders was attempting to make.
Another example to clarify: if I were to say, right now, that BTC is not really a currency and you point to its use by $fraction of retailers as proof that it is a currency, any future decline in BTC acceptance by retailers adds support for my assertion, not for your counter-argument. A future rise in % BTC acceptance by retailers may provide the support for your counter-argument, but current cherry-picked examples do not.
Predictive power beats single-data-point examples when proving or disproving a hypothesis. Pointing to a single example only works when the assertion is an existentialist one ("All $FOO are unworkable" needs only a single counter-example to disprove, while "$FOO is not long-term viable" cannot be disproved with a single counter-example).
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So if I predict "Company A's stock will rise and become huge!", and then the next day someone blows up Company A's headquarters in a terrorst attack, is that my fault that the prediction turned out bad? Heck, Sanders isn't even making a prediction, just an observation about the present.
Most of the disastrous policies that led to Venezuela's plunge were enacted under Maduro.
Re:Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the inherent flaw of centrally planned economies, though. A small number of idiots can tank an entire country. In a capitalist country, a large number of competing idiots have to simultaneously ignore facts and reason, and all make the same move, in order to tank the country. Our closest recent example was the banking crisis, and even then, there were still winners - all the smaller banks that were like "lol wtf?" at the sub prime mortgages and stayed out of that game. As well as any individuals with precious metals stashed away. When things are traded at what they are worth, it's difficult to make wealth disappear. In this regard planned economies make David Copperfield jealous.
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To be really fair, when someone predicts something and their prediction turns out accurate, then their hypothesis is *probably* correct.
Nope. That's a faulty way of thinking, and easily refuted. For example, I can predict that the sun will rise tomorrow, because Apollo won't be late pulling his chariot across the sky since he has a Sony alarm clock. An accurate prediction is not a good indicator of a hypothesis actually being correct at all, and assuming such is a perilous risk.
Like if, for example, someone in 2011 said "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", and Sanders points to Venezuela as an argument that they do indeed work, the future collapse of Venezuela provides support for the statement "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", not for whatever counter-argument Sanders was attempting to make.
Nope. Recall the above. You have to look at causality in a much more careful scrutiny. For example, Sanders could be wrong about Venezuela enacting Socialist
Re:Was Bernie talking about Bitcoin? (Score:4, Interesting)
To be fair "these days [senate.gov]" was referring to 2011, when that article by Sanders was written. A time when the Venezuelan economy was rebounding [wordpress.com]. Two years before Maduro was even sworn in.
To be really fair, when someone predicts something and their prediction turns out accurate, then their hypothesis is *probably* correct.
Like if, for example, someone in 2011 said "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", and Sanders points to Venezuela as an argument that they do indeed work, the future collapse of Venezuela provides support for the statement "Socialist policies don't really work, mostly", not for whatever counter-argument Sanders was attempting to make.
Another example to clarify: if I were to say, right now, that BTC is not really a currency and you point to its use by $fraction of retailers as proof that it is a currency, any future decline in BTC acceptance by retailers adds support for my assertion, not for your counter-argument. A future rise in % BTC acceptance by retailers may provide the support for your counter-argument, but current cherry-picked examples do not.
Predictive power beats single-data-point examples when proving or disproving a hypothesis. Pointing to a single example only works when the assertion is an existentialist one ("All $FOO are unworkable" needs only a single counter-example to disprove, while "$FOO is not long-term viable" cannot be disproved with a single counter-example).
The FUBAR otherwise known as the Venezuelan economy is what happens when you over-leverage your economy and bet on oil prices permanently remaining at an all time high. Conflating Bernie's brand of social democracy with Chavista style socialism and then pointing at Vesezuela as an example that Bernie's ideas don't work is simplistic to say the least.
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Sanders and his facsimile in the UK Corbyn are wrong about the South American paradise. Yet neither one of them or their supporters will face up to reality.
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What did they do to deserve Chavez or Maduro? Vote for them?
Sucks to be them, but nations get the leadership they deserve. Hopefully their neighbors and kids are paying attention.
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What you are missing is that whilst Venezuela is worse for the rich people. It; better for the poor people. Not great, but it was worse when the capitalists were in control.
Yes, they get the leadership they deserve. They keep voting socialist because the socialists make their lives better. They are not stupid, and you are not in a better position to say what they should vote.
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Venezuela? Bernie wants us to be like Venezuela? The country is freaking destroying itself! Ah, well, I always knew Bernie was nucking futz.
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Yes, because the GOP are doing such a great job at the moment lowering the tax rate massively for their rich donors while screwing over the poor and middle-class (what's left of it). The president is a uncaring racist who doesn't understand basic economics, is trying to make as much money while being president as possible, is going around destabilizing the world, and only really wants to get rid of all immigrants and start a war with North Korea.
But Bernie, who wants national health care, is the one who is
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Then be angry at the DNC who sabotaged Bernie's election as presidential candidate and elected the only idiot able to loose from Trump.
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It would pay handsomely to buy Bernie and all of his supporters one-way tickets to Venezuela, where they can achieve their version of the American Dream. Leave America to real Americans who know how to work for a living.
And yes, I am aware of the immense difference in my views since I started posting on slashdot, using my online name from college.
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Well look at you. All it took was a salary to turn you from a marxist to a capitalist. Maybe you were just in it for yourself all along.
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To be exact, it took a salary to turn me from a marxist to a capitalist, then loss of a salary to turn me back to a marxist, then 10 years of hourly wage to turn me into a distributist. Perhaps, when I go back to being on a large salary next year, I'll be back to being a capitalist, but I doubt it. The problem with capitalism is the same as the problem with Marxism: it's a pyramid scheme. The tiny minority at the top live in luxury and don't do a whole lot of useful work, while everybody below them toil
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Good. People who still believe in communism and are making over $100k/year are largely worthless paper desk jockies.
And I say that as a worthless desk jockey.
I'm well aware that most of what I do, has zero real world value.
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It annoys me when I see their beards and glasses and hairy arms.
Yeah... and that's just the hipster women!
Re: Not entirely illogical ? Seriously ? (Score:1)
If government issued currencies were not so much manipulated, nobody would use bitcoin. Even the collapse of the dollar is rather likely, given the never ending inflation.
THAT is the reason for investment into bitcoin. Here in Germany we had people losing their bank accounts two times in the last 110 years. Same in Russia for the last 30 years.
Only fools think government issued money can store wealth over extended periods of time.
Bitcoin = freedom (Score:3, Insightful)
The only party that might get damaged is the government. The people of Venezuela can at least use bitcoin as a way to store their value, and to conduct trade, free of the hyperinflation their government imposes on them with its rampant spending. For them bitcoin is a gift from heaven, a way out from their broken system.
The government, OTOH, should definitely be worried. Bitcoin offers no way for them to print money, so as their nation switches away from the old coin, government income will dwindle to nothing. They will be left with a valueless coin, and therefore without the means to effectively control their country.
And Venezuela is only the first country to go down this road. Eventually _all_ nations will end up in the same spot, as people will generally prefer bitcoin (which is free from inflation) over whatever local currency they are now stuck with. Governments that wake up to this in time will try to put a stop to it, using whatever draconian measures they can get away with. The people, who will have a major part of their wealth in bitcoin, will fight them.
It will be interesting to see who will win.
Re: Bitcoin = freedom (Score:1)
Except Bitcoin is going through hyperinflation right now. With massive swings in value, outrageous transaction fees, and weeks to process transactions.
It doesn't do you any good if it takes 9 days to process a transaction, which is what it currently is taking. Bitcoin is going up in value due to speculators, but you have to hold on to it as it takes 7-10 days to actually be able to sell what you got.
The futures market should help stabilize it as the big speculators will be money there. It is also why for
Re: Bitcoin = freedom (Score:4, Insightful)
Except Bitcoin is going through hyperinflation right now. With massive swings in value, outrageous transaction fees, and weeks to process transactions.
The sad thing is that, even though those points are true, it's still more stable and reliable than Venezuela's currency.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Stupid argument of the week (Score:2)
Bitcoin offers no way for them to print money, so as their nation switches away from the old coin, government income will dwindle to nothing.
Stupid statement #1. The problems of Venezuela are not rooted in them printing money. The problems are far more diverse [wikipedia.org] and numerous.
They will be left with a valueless coin, and therefore without the means to effectively control their country.
Stupid statement #2. Even if they cannot revive the bolivar they can simply use another fiat currency like the dollar or the euro. Countries experiencing hyperinflation do this commonly for periods of time. It isn't a cure all but sometimes it is a useful tool.
And Venezuela is only the first country to go down this road.
Stupid statement #3. Venezuela is not the first country to experience hyperinflation and bitcoin will not save t
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There was a lot of stupid in the grandparent post, but BTC does have a reasonable argument for being free from inflation. The supply of bitcoin is limited which makes it deflationary, assuming human wealth will continue to increase.
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Hmm...now that is an interesting idea hiding in there. Say you have a country that has at least one waterfall. Make a centralized blockchain currency, limited to only the government mining it, and base all your government income on mining coins in a mint connected to a waterwheel driven turbine. Eliminate all taxes, new currency gets added to your economy in a hyperinflationary but quasi-predictable way, and all government services are funded forever.
Now that is a dream that might merge my current distri
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A Ponzi Scheme will not help out Venezuela in any way.
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And then the fix is "okay, we'll subsidize the first X kWh, then it gets more expensive". But that's just dancing around UBI. If you want a basic subsidy to cover necessities, just give people the money rather than distorting market prices. And as for the notion that some people will just "squander it" - well, that's their bloody choice. If someone finds buying liquor to be more important than keeping the lights on, hey, it's their choice if they want to drink in the dark. Most people won't join them.
Re: Well what do you expect. (Score:1)
Have you met people who have handouts for their rent and food? This is exactly what they'll do with UBI - they'll blow it on bullshit like cigarettes, and then complain that they don't have enough for rent (but fuck their landlord, he's rich anyways and should just take it). I don't believe for a second that the same bleeding heart fools advocating for UBI will turn around and have hearts of stone when the money is misspent and poor kids are hungry.
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Instead of UBI it needs to be delivery of necessities. Free but boring clothes, tiny dorm room, cafeteria downstairs with food. Free wifi and cheap netbook (to look for jobs, or porn, or whatever). If they want nothing more in life, they are free to live it out like that forever. The important thing is to divorce necessities from money.
Hell even after getting a job, people would be be free to stay there (after all, universal applies to everyone, from homeless dude on the street to Bill Gates).
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In reality, people will keep the three hots and a cot, and subsidize their income with illicit and highly profitable activities: prostitution, gambling, drugs.
If the government turns a blind eye to these activities, the negative repercussions will spill over and drive down everyone's standard of living.
If the government cracks down, then your Universal Basic Dormitories are pretty much just prisons at that point, as police raids will be constantly needed.
UBI and UBD and UBwhatever all fall into the same tra
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Of course they have a way. Where does the miner get his electricity?
When in the US potgrowers can be found by their electricity usage, why not in Venezuela?
Unless someone dams a river in the jungle and imports generators from GE or Siemens (both are massively laying of people since no one buys big generators anymore) there is always a way to find miners. At least miners above hobbyists.
Venezuela has run out of other people's money (Score:1)
This is what happens when you run out of other people's money that you were using to pay for the "free stuff" you were giving away.
You have to double down on shakedown schemes.
The only thing sustainable in Venezuela under the suffocating blanket of dying socialism is starvation and disease.
Are you really going to argue socialism could have worked in Venezuela had it been "done properly"?
<SARCASM>Yeah, right. Sure it would have.</SARCASM>
Do you have the brains to even ask why you have to do that
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Marxism actually appeals to the dumb (tit suckers) and the half smart (can't see limits, but see potential power for themselves).
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only because all the high paying jobs are south of it's border. Almost all jobs in NH pay a bit above minimum wage and for health benefits you need to use the ACA
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There's no significant difference between an absolute libertarian state and pure anarchy.
The fundamental system shucks off all civility and slowly returns to the natural state of things if you remove intelligent management: predator/prey relationships.
I'm reasonably certain that the majority of people promoting libertarian states or anarchies believe THEY will be the successful local strongman lording over everyone else in such a situation. I'm also pretty certain they're delusional.
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>Intelligent management...as in communism, responsible for over 100 millions deaths globally?
Ask an old Russian how they felt about Communism compared to the state of Russia shortly after Communism fell. Or anybody who survived a state in 'transition'.
Order is better than chaos for the majority, even when that order is pretty grim.
>How about fascism, where the Nazi party as "intelligent management"
How about the overall order of the world that brought that under control? In a more chaotic world there
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There's nothing inherently good or evil about order or chaos. They're two different axis. For example: you can have evil order, benign order, evil chaos, and benign chaos. Chaos is merely an agent of change. That's it! And depending on the state of society, it may be welcomed, or might not be.
Life aren't DND.
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>I make a recommendation to actually talk to some libertarians to find out what libertarian state would actually look like.
You're an idiot if you think privatized courts and policing wouldn't lead to chaos and ultimately local warlords.
>The difference between anarchy and libertarianism in a word is accountability.
The difference between anarchy and libertarianism is the philosophy. The inevitable conclusion is identical.
No bias in that summary at ALL! (Score:3)
> Being taxed is not entirely illogical
Whatever services government provides must be paid for somehow. Taxation is not only logical but inevitable.
> but the registration requirement is pretty worrisome, to say the least.
Since crypto is being used to subvert the government-controlled economic system... registration is not only logical but inevitable.
>The government shouldn't need to know who is doing what in regards to crypto trading and mining. ...the opinion of people attempting cheat their government with crypto trading and mining.
The problem is political mismanagement of the economy, but you don't fix that by removing all economic control from the government unless you want things to get worse.
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Scapegoating is characteristic of failing socialists.
How about the billions the Chavez Family Has (Score:4, Insightful)
Watch your universals (Score:2)
I am. In fact I'm astonished, because only last week the Venezuelan government announced that it will develop its own cryptocurrency (backed by natural resources, apparently, although I'm not sure how that will work).
no, its about the money (Score:2)
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Do you have ANY evidence of such use of Bitcoin. Because that sounds like wishful thinking.
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I guess you didn't read it. Your article is about Bitcoin mining. We know that's happening in Venezuela, that's what TFA is about. But it says nothing related to your claim that Venezuelans are using Bitcoin to buy groceries.
You made it up.
Donate Miners to the Venesualian Governemnt (Score:1)
Well, a government should not oppress it's people. That said. The people of Venesuela might in unision, accept donations of bitcoin miners, and convert their vast resource of oil into bitcoin to alleviate their debt to international bankers and restore prosperity to the region. Just don't borrow from international bankers ever again.
If mere crypocurrencies can "damage" it ... (Score:1)
From the summary:
Since Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies can't be regulated or controlled by the government in any official capacity, they could damage the country's brittle economy even further.
If a competing currency can "damage" an economy, it's already damaged. The competition just makes the damage more conspicuous, by allowing people additional choices, choices they sometimes choose to take.
Remember the Soviet Union and East Germany? The people running their governments tried to quash competing currencies, too.
Golly. What's the common denominator, here?