Lawsuit Accuses Comcast of Cutting Competitor's Wires To Put It Out of Business (arstechnica.com) 142
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: A tiny Internet service provider has sued Comcast, alleging that the cable giant and its hired contractors cut the smaller company's wires in order to take over its customer base. Telecom Cable LLC had "229 satisfied customers" in Weston Lakes and Corrigan, Texas when Comcast and its contractors sabotaged its network, the lawsuit filed last week in Harris County District Court said. Comcast had tried to buy Telecom Cable's Weston Lakes operations in 2013 "but refused to pay what they were worth," the complaint says. Starting in June 2015, Comcast and two contractors it hired "systematically destroyed Telecom's business by cutting its lines and running off its customers," the lawsuit says. Comcast destroyed or damaged the lines serving all Telecom Cable customers in Weston Lakes and never repaired them, the lawsuit claims. Telecom Cable owner Anthony Luna estimated the value of his business at about $1.8 million, which he is seeking to recover. He is also seeking other damages from Comcast and its contractors, including exemplary damages that under state statute could "amount to a maximum of twice the amount of economic damages, plus up to $750,000 of non-economic damages," the complaint says. CourtHouse News Service has a story about the lawsuit, and it posted a copy of the complaint.
If true paying damages not adequate (Score:5, Insightful)
The court should take that $1 million in damages, and multiply it by 100, and order Comcast to (1) Pay $100 Million+, (2) Send a short notice to all of Telecom Cable LLC's former customers Explaining what they did and apologizing, and (3) Order Comcast to pay an additional $100 Million per Year, for every year in which there is not another competing wireline Cable company such as Telecom Cable LLC with at least 229 customers in the area..
Re: If true paying damages not adequate (Score:1)
Yeah, right.
Comcast and the other tellcos own my state government. We are their bitch.
I budget a few bucks every year for knee pads and KY for the ass fucking I take from them.
My legislators are getting more hookers and blow and distract us with stupid distraction issues like who can use what bathroom.
Re:If true paying damages not adequate (Score:5, Interesting)
In place of #3, I'd like to see the court use eminent domain to take Comcast's wires and give them to the city so each customer or each neighborhood can choose their own ISP.
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Unfortunately in a cable topology that's not practical at the individual level. It's a shared medium to the node. And even then, the nodes aren't the be-all end-all of the system, so having different nodes on different ISPs is not easily done.
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> Unfortunately in a cable topology that's not practical at the individual level.
> It's a shared medium to the node. And even then, the nodes aren't the be-all
> end-all of the system, so having different nodes on different ISPs is not easily done.
In Canada we have TPIA (Third Party ISP Access) I can get internet service from Rogers Cable (the incumbent), the owner of the physical plant. Or I can get cable internet over the same wire from any of several 3rd-party ISPs, at lower rates.
Re:If true paying damages not adequate (Score:5, Interesting)
Comcast employees admit they cut the wires, but they claim that they thought the wires were abandoned. This is a pretty good defense against the kind of punishments you listed.
If I were the judge, I would rule as follows:
Comcast, if you declare this was accidental, then your right to service that area is hereby denied. You have 6 months to break up that area into a separate company, which will be given to the plaintiff, in addition to any profits you declared for that area, from the time you acted to the time you give the company away.
If instead you declare this was intentional, give us a list of the employees that committed the theft, and actively help us prosecute them. You now owe the plaintiff twice what they requested, but you can keep the service area.
they can just pass the blame to subcontractors (Score:2)
they can just pass the blame to subcontractors.
Re: they can just pass the blame to subcontractors (Score:5, Funny)
But *I* didn't kill my wife, the guy I paid to did!
Re:If true paying damages not adequate (Score:5, Insightful)
Comcast employees admit they cut the wires, but they claim that they thought the wires were abandoned.
Which is why you typically test for active signal on a line before you cut it.
Yaz
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Re:If true paying damages not adequate (Score:5, Interesting)
Comcast employees admit they cut the wires, but they claim that they thought the wires were abandoned.
Wires on utility poles are labeled as to who the owner is. If the wires were not marked as belonging to Comcast the contractors legally cannot touch them, regardless of if they appear in use or not, unless they are authorized to by the owner.
This is part of the reason there is lots of red tape involved in getting utility poles replaced.
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Why. So the proles may be ordered to pay for the sins of their capitalist masters?
Re: If true paying damages not adequate (Score:2)
Nuremberg defense.
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The problem is that large companies like Comcast can absorb the damages asked, it is almost in the noise level of their profit margins. What will turn a CEOs pants brown is a federal law that ties damages for patterns of criminal misbehavior (this is intentional vandalism by multiple individuals) for profit to the previous years gross income. If you make a statue that requires damages for criminal misbehavior that benefits the company be at least 20% of annual gross income averaged over the last 3 years,
Re:If true paying damages not adequate (Score:4, Informative)
Jail time for every technician involved, and at least a few layers up in management. Folks need to be scared to participate in illegal activities, even when ordered by their superiors.
Better: Criminal Charges and Prison for Execs (Score:5, Insightful)
If the allegations are true then massive fines against the company will do little to hurt any individuals who are actually responsible for the decision to behave this way and will instead hurt investors and rank-and-file employees in the company collapses. The best deterrent is to make those responsible for the decisions criminally liable for them too. Do not let them hide behind the company: they made the decision they should have to deal with the consequences.
This is what is so nauseating about modern corporate behaviour. It's not that companies misbehave - they are made up of humans so it will always happen - what is terrible is that those responsible for the behaviour make out like bandits while the investors and rank-and-file employees are left carrying the can.
Cord Cutting (Score:5, Funny)
They heard cord-cutting is a thing now (Score:3)
Maybe they were just trying to stay hip?
Seems like a lot of trouble for 229 customers, I would think the Comcast loses more customers than that every day. From what I've observed of Comcast this could as easily be incompetence as malice, but likely it's a combination of the two. They should pay either way. Did Comcast raise rates after Telecom went out of business?
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No way. They are honest and trustworthy.
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Seems like a lot of trouble for 229 customers
TFA doesn't say there were 229 customers. I only says that 229 of them were satisfied.
Re: They heard cord-cutting is a thing now (Score:5, Funny)
Was that referring to Comcast customers? If so, that number seems a bit high.
Re:They heard cord-cutting is a thing now (Score:4, Informative)
229 customers is a significant share of the market in a city of only 2300 people in 2008.
Apparently only 1300 homes currently. I would assume a lot less back in 2007, considering the population is now 3500
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>"229 customers is a significant share of the market in a city of only 2300 people"
What kind of definition allows a city to be just 2300 people? That is barely a town! :)
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I guess when they towns people voted to incorporate the town as a city in 2008?
Weston Lakes is a city in Fort Bend County, Texas, United States. Residents voted to incorporate the community in an election held on May 10, 2008.[1] At the time of incorporation, there were about 2,300 residents living in Weston Lakes.[2] The population was 2,482 as of the 2010 census.[3]
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An archaeologist's working definition of a "city" is "a population centre of more than 5000 people". Strictly, that's only true for pre-literate societies. but we're talking about Texas here, so it still may be valid.
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The thing you need to understand about Comcast is that it's not one big unified corporate entity. It's comprised of a bunch of region and markets that happen to share the same branding. The way things are done in Chicago are not the same way things are done in Florida, for example.
It's also a very sales driven company. In a metro area, yeah, 229 wouldn't be that much to care about. In a smaller market? 229 is a big deal
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Maybe they were just trying to stay hip?
Seems like a lot of trouble for 229 customers, I would think the Comcast loses more customers than that every day. From what I've observed of Comcast this could as easily be incompetence as malice, but likely it's a combination of the two. They should pay either way. Did Comcast raise rates after Telecom went out of business?
My guess would be that it was actually the contractors doing it, and Comcast just didn't care. 229 customers might not be much for Comcast, but for those contractors it was 229 more jobs with billable hours. Comcast is just involved because they were told and knew they hired crooks and didn't do anything about it.
Check the pole! Check the pole! (Score:4, Insightful)
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Same here. It doesn't strike me as accidental, unless they're grossly incompetent across the board.
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My roommate had Comcast Internet in the early 2000's. Every time a Comcast truck came through the neighborhood we had technical troubles. One time we went a month without Internet service until Comcast finally sent a tech out to check the pole. The last tech installed a bypass filter backwards.
I had their 100 meg business-class service at my house when it first came out about a decade ago. One day it suddenly stopped working at 10:01 PM. I called and their business department was closed...so I called the regular number. The guy said they would have a business tech on at 8 AM and I would have to wait until then. I called my sales rep at home and bitched how home users paying $50/mo get 24/7 service, but I was paying $400/mo and they didn't give a crap... He said he'd make a call. About 45 mi
1.8 million for an ISP with 229 customers? (Score:2, Interesting)
1.8 million for 229 internet customers. How?
229 customers even paying $100 month, is 22,900 in revenue per month, 274,800 per year, in gross sales. The company had limited growth potential. I can't see an ISP that small needing or havving massive capital infrastructure to put more value on the books...
What? Does the company own its own offices on lakefront property or something, and that is part of the sale?
Otherwise where is 1.8 Million dollar valuation coming from? His ass?
That's not to say I support comc
Re: 1.8 million for an ISP with 229 customers? (Score:5, Informative)
He's asking for less than ten years of revenue. While his chances of selling at that price depend on a lot of factors, it's not at all an unreasonable number on its own.
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He's asking for less than ten years of revenue.
I doubled what I think the average customer is paying. $100 / month for internet is pretty high... for a rural village in TX... its probably mostly 25-50/mo.
I think he's asking 10-15 years gross revenue. Which is ludicrous.
Seriously rule of thumb multiples ... are usually less than 100% of annual revenue, not 10x.
http://www.business-valuation.... [business-valuation.biz]
They even cite an ISP ... the rule of thumb for that is $200-400 per account. (about 1.5 years AR assuming $35/month )
But look at the rest of the example businesses
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You'd actually be surprised at what small ISP's will charge.
When I moved to rural SC 4 years ago, I had 2 options. AT&T DSL at 256kup/3mbs down, or the local cable provider, 2mbs up/24mbps down. The DSL cost $70/month, the cable cost $99.95/month.
The cable company has since deployed 10mb up/100mb down, keeping the $99.95 price point, while the 2/24 is 'only' $59.95/month. Same shitty DSL still costs $70/month
Re:1.8 million for an ISP with 229 customers? (Score:5, Informative)
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Your not wrong in general, but this was a tiny ISP in Weston Lakes and Corrigan, Texas. These "cities" have a combined population of under 4000 people, probably 1500-2000 households total.
They were servicing a couple small rural communities; and likely thrived due to comcast having extremely poor and limited services. That's why i speculated limited growth potential. They weren't likely going to be able to get a foothold anywhere.
Further, no, you do not typically mulitply GROSS revenue out by 5+ years. prof
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Repair costs. Damage to reputation. Business lost from customers who didn't sign up due to the damages.
Re:1.8 million for an ISP with 229 customers? (Score:4, Insightful)
If that's the case, why did Comcast come into the same market?
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The other poster had it right. They are borg. :)
In all seriousness though, I would bet you that comcast wasn't planning strategic expansion into Corrigan TX... with its 1500 residents. Nor into Weston Lakes with 2600.
It was just a few specks in a broader East Texas rural expansion project.
Comcast's care for the public (Score:4, Informative)
Cut at least four lines (Score:5, Informative)
"[D]uring the time Mr. Luna spent calling, the contractors had cut three additional cable lines. Defendants paid no notice to Telecom’s markings and continued to destroy Telecom’s lines, and Telecom's complaints fell on deaf ears. One would like to believe that the destruction was accidental, but the comprehensiveness of it—coupled with Comcast’s prior interest in Telecom—renders such a conclusion doubtful. Within six weeks, Defendants destroyed or damaged the lines servicing every single Telecom customer in Weston Lakes, and not one of those lines was ever repaired by Defendants."
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action.
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Assuming it even happened. Have not seen anything except what was stipulated in the lawsuit filing. But something doesn't sound right. If this was happening why wait a few years to file, and in the meantime the owner didn't stay in Texas but moved to NY State. That is very odd. My guess is owner lost control over the business because they couldn't compete on internet speed. Also not only Comcast is here but ATT as well, both with fiber. Again would have to see objective proof of damage before making
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Re:Cut at least four lines (Score:4, Interesting)
This is my anecdotal evidence on why I don't think it's suspect. When I moved into my new house, Comcast and Verizon FIOS, were the common providers in the neighborhood. The fiber lines were already ran through the neighborhood, but not everyone used FIOS. I had FIOS before and wanted to avoid Comcast. One super shitty experience with Comcast has made me swear them off for a really long time. Anyway, the guy comes in and installs the necessary bits that Verizon installs and leaves. Everything looks good initially and he tells me to give them a call if anything seems out of whack.
Cool, no problem. TV worked and I didn't yet have a desk for my computer, so I wasn't going to hook it up right away. I was buying a desk the next week and could wait. TV worked the entire time with little issues. I get my desk, assemble it, and turn on the PC. After looking at my router lights I realize I didn't have any internet. So I call them up and explain this all to them and they said they would send a guy out.
The guy comes out, runs his diagnostic test and tells me my line must be fucked. He digs up my yard for the line and finds that Comcast had purposely partially split the cable when they were here last for the previous resident. He told me this was a common tactic they did. If the line isn't theirs, they hack at it.
My take from this is that Comcast hopes people don't call to have their issues resolved and cancel their current carrier to go with them. This lawsuit confirms my suspicions.
Re:Cut at least four lines (Score:5, Interesting)
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If the claims are true, there also should be a criminal trial and jail time. This is deliberate destruction of a productive enterprise for financial gain, far worse than getting drunk and smashing a few windows, or burglary, each of which would result in jail.
I completely agree. What would happen to you or I if either one of us had cut those cables? We would be in prison and be responsible for huge sums of money in damages.
I am unsure how it becomes not a criminal matter when a person employed by a company (competing no less!) does it. I am doubting that Comcast will even get slapped on the wrist for this. With a full monopoly in the area, they can offer some sweet deals to the judges and officials in that area.
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"I'll agree that corporations are people when one is tried and executed in Texas" or something like that. Corporations have many of the rights and few of the responsibilities of people.
"Comcast Cutting the Cord" (Score:1)
Jury Trial (Score:1)
Bonus points for defense not having enough dismissals to get rid of all the disgruntled Comcast customers who are called for jury duty.
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Bonus points for defense not having enough dismissals to get rid of all the disgruntled Comcast customers who are called for jury duty.
Nice sentiment; however, there are no limitations on juror dismissal for cause. Only peremptory dismissals are limited.
I have personally witnessed this... (Score:5, Interesting)
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If this is true, perhaps you should contact Anthony Luna.
His attorney might be very interested to hear your story.
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We had Verizon recently installed at the time, and Saw a Comcast Truck out by our pole one morning. Figuring he was just hooking up another customer, we thought nothing of it and went about our surfing and Netflix... Then the internet cut out.
What if it had been some teenagers out there cutting it? I am betting there would have been criminal charges. I would be pounding down the door of the local DA and police chief demanding that criminal charges be pursued.
But yeah, behavior like this is expected when it involves large companies and you know... individual employees and possibly their managers could never be held accountable because, well, it is just business, and business can be quite nasty and unethical... and damnit, we should keep it that w
Breaking the competition is SOP for Comcast (Score:5, Interesting)
25 years ago when my family finally went from antenna to Comcast cable, one thing they did when installing their cable runs was to snip the connectors off then end of all of the in-house antenna coax that was there before... Tough to go back to antenna when you can't hook it up any more.
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I am an old fart over 60 years old. There was cable T.V. in the middle of the 1950s which we had per my father. So there was coax in houses over 60 years ago. Quit making dumb statements about technology.
Immunity Offer (Score:5, Interesting)
I would like to see a District Attorney offer immunity from prosecution to any Comcast employee willing to come forward with evidence that this practice was being unofficially promoted or condoned by Comcast Management. I am sure that there is at least one employee or former employee who would be willing to talk.
This kind of wholesale sabotage isn't just about the defrauded companies who were injured by Comcast's actions, or the subscribers to those other companies who were disenfranchised and similarly defrauded [companies forced into liquidation aren't going to be able to offer refunds]. This is a test of the entire criminal justice system. This is a bell-weather indicator of whether or not there actually *is* justice today.
We hear a lot of talk about how governments "get business" and how they want to support the "little guy" and "promote growth". Well, here's a golden opportunity for someone to put their grandiose words into action.
We're waiting.
Forgot to Mention (Score:4, Informative)
Not quite racketeering, but I'm sure that a creative States AG could find more.
Still waiting.
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As the Owner of the defrauded company, I'd actually pursue this under the RICO Statues as it allows for much greater damages and if he's able to prove it was a conspiracy, he may actualy be able to take over Comcasts operations in the two cities - hitting them in the wallet for multiple years.
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Still waiting.
For the love of all that is holy, do not hold your breath while waiting!
Honestly, I am a little unsure why corporations can't just outright kill people. They get away with pretty much everything else. Cutting wires is only criminal if you did not do it to hurt a competitor. If you cut wires to hurt a competitor, it is just competition which is the heart of capitalism.
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This is a test of the entire criminal justice system. This is a bell-weather indicator of whether or not there actually *is* justice today.
Well, that's when it all breaks down, because there is no justice and nothing will happen because such a large and wealthy company can do whatever it wants. They own the politicians.
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Since it's used for Internet access, could the prosecutor throw the CFAA at Comcast?
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This kind of wholesale sabotage isn't just about the defrauded companies who were injured by Comcast's actions, or the subscribers to those other companies who were disenfranchised and similarly defrauded [companies forced into liquidation aren't going to be able to offer refunds]. This is a test of the entire criminal justice system. This is a bell-weather indicator of whether or not there actually *is* justice today.
Tyranny doesn't start with prosecuting your enemies. It starts with not prosecuting your friends.
The problem is... (Score:4, Insightful)
As to why Comcast would resort to these tactics, the answer, simply, is because they work.
Re:The problem is... (Score:4, Informative)
Telecom is inherently interstate in nature. This would probably qualify for federal RICO action, which can be filed privately for civil damages (and is much harder to get tossed if you can back up your accusations). And if the feds take it over, it becomes criminal (and whoever filed it originally still gets a large chunk of the now probably much larger judgment).
Note that a privately filed RICO lawsuit does not require the permission or cooperation of any prosecutors (and interference from them can get them into a lot of trouble).
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>"..even if Telecom Cable wins, the max damages amount to pocket change for Comcast, and, if my understanding is correct, Telecom Cable still remains irreparably harmed, probably out of business. So Comcast wins no matter what happens."
I want to know also about the poor CUSTOMERS who had to suffer through it too; they were just as much the victims of this crime. How about a civil class-action suit from all who lost service and had to waste time trying to get reconnected and paying fees if they had to sw
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Not necessarily. It creates dangerous precedent that could encourage others to pursue similar lawsuits. That's what I'm rooting for, anyway.
The telco monopolies have been doing this... (Score:2, Interesting)
for decades! I founded what I think was the first commercial ISP in my state in 1994. I bought Internet access from Sprint. My connection was down more than up for the first two years since HellSouth kept disconnecting our T1. It sucked paying over $3,500 per month for access when it was down so often. In 1996 I switched to MCI since they claimed to have a better relationship with BellSouth, and I found-out they were wrong. BellSouth ripped-out all of the wiring to our office building and left everyon
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LOL at the word HellSouth.
I worked for a small ISP in SC between 1995 and 2001. BellSouth started offering DSL to end-users, and in order to compete we had to too. We had to buy an ATM connection to them and buy the equipment to handle the ATM termination. IIRC, that was $6,500 per month for the ATM connection, $45k per month for our T3 connection to MCI, and $105k for the cisco router. In addition, BellSouth charged us $65 per month for the 1.5 Mbps DSL connection. So, we had to pay $65 for each custo
and not just in the US (Score:2)
Quite a number of years ago I worked for a British Telecom joint venture. The old BT hands like to laugh about sabotaging the connections of their then sole competitor, Mercury Communications.
My take after working for a number of telecom companies is that there is a pervasive culture of impunity.
I posted this yesterday, why did you reject it??? (Score:3)
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It's part of a vast conspiracy. First they drive you slowly, one invisibly small step at a time to the brink of madness. Not having the right change for the soda machine, arriving at an intersection just in time for the 10 minute red light, the guy in front of you buys the last cheese danish, the bus is 10 seconds early the one day you run a minute late so you get there just in time for it to close its doors practically in your face and pull away.
This has been going on practically since your birth (the rest
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Well...OK, but only if I get to play the world's smallest violin for you. :-)
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Not just cables (Score:5, Informative)
But microwave links as well are being sabotaged by some one. Not sure who it is. Everything from aluminum spray paint on the dish to metallic epoxy injected into the device shorting it out. And of course, making it un-repairable.
And in Texas, all you have to be is a major monopoly and own a few lobbyists, and you get whatever it is you want. Insurance, banks, health care, and telecom frequently write the laws they want to give it to their paid for state congress critter. Sometimes, they even forget to remove the water marks on the legislation, so when you download the proposed bill, it's right there in the metadata. And there are rarely any edits for more than correcting grammar or spelling.
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>But microwave links as well are being sabotaged by some one. Not sure who it is. Everything from aluminum spray paint on the dish to metallic epoxy injected into the device shorting it out. And of course, making it un-repairable.
Here in Canada, without American gun culture, it appears to be a kind of 'sport' to illegally discharge firearms at microwave dishes on communications towers.
Not that it really does much damage most of the time, but at a minimum it allows the elements in and water (or snow and i
A big evil company trying to buyout the little guy (Score:2)
Probably fine after net neutrality gets repealed.. (Score:1)
Wouldn't this just be 100% throttling?
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What would fix this? (Score:4, Funny)
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They're already doing that by writing the regulations. At least without them, smaller competitors would be unhindered.
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One small problem. (Score:2)
Most of Europe listened to Engels and recognized social crime by organizations. In America, they didn't, and corporate entities exist purely to protect people from prosecution.
For chrissakes, the Enron guys (that didn't die) got off on appeal. If you can't succeed against them, you're never going to succeed against Comcast.
Routine Operations (Score:3)
While living in Chicago, my RCN cable connection would occasionally cut-off dead. I'd call RCN, and the next day a tech would show up to reconnect my cable service at the building inlet cluster.
I was twice told that Comcast/TWC technicians had been instructed to disconnect a couple of their competitors' customers whenever they went to an apartment or condo for an install.
Also, in Santa Monica, CA, when Verizon installed phone service, they cut and removed the existing telephone from-the-pole cabling (likely to have been originally installed at taxpayer expense). Verizon had a money-back guarantee if you were not satisfied with their service. Activating that would have left you with no telephone wiring at all. I am not making this up. I asked the tech why he was cutting and discarding the length of cable that had been pre-existing. He shrugged, and said, "standard procedure."
Comcast does something evil? I'm SHOCKED!! (Score:2)
Well, not that shocked...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1f/73/93/1f73933775e024a9b859c8e7d454572c.gif [pinimg.com]