Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools? (backchannel.com) 168
mirandakatz writes: David Molina was finishing up his 12-year time in the army when he started teaching himself to code, and started to think that he might like to pursue it professionally once his service was done. But with a wife and family, he couldn't dedicate the four years he'd need to get an undergraduate degree in computer science -- and the GI Bill, he learned, won't cover accelerated programs like code schools. So he started an organization dedicated to changing that. Operation Code is lobbying politicians to allow vets to attend code schools through the GI Bill and prepare themselves for the sorts of stable, middle-class jobs that have come to be called "blue-collar coding." Molina sees it as a serious failing that the GI Bill will cover myriad vocational programs, but not those that can prepare veterans for one of the fastest-growing industries in existence.
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
Should government pay for diploma mills? (Score:4, Insightful)
No. New schools, even if they're "coding schools" still need to go through the normal procedures to attain recognition that they are a real school.
Re:Should government pay for diploma mills? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Should government pay for diploma mills? (Score:5, Insightful)
The school should get fully paid only after the student completes the course, gets a job, and is employed for six months. That will increase their incentive to work with local employers, teach skills that are actually in demand, and help with job placement. It will decrease their incentive to enroll people that clearly can't do the work.
Re: (Score:1)
For that matter, the schools should have their tuition earnings be contingent on the increase in salary their graduates make over minimum wage. Take an average multiple of the minimum wage that each student is earning for the three years following graduation: if that number is 2 then the school should be able to keep 100% of federal financial aid paid as tuition. If that number is less than 2, they should have to divide the number by two and that should be the percent of federal financial aid paid as tuitio
Re: (Score:2)
The school should get fully paid only after the student completes the course, gets a job, and is employed for six months... It will decrease their incentive to enroll people that clearly can't do the work.
Some of the programs do exactly that. Then they basically end up enrolling people who could already program. They force you to go through a few dozen "exercises" which are basically programming interview questions, plus several small projects. So by the time you're enrolled, you don't really need the course anymore.
Code Mills (Score:3)
I disagree. The skill being taught is the ability to learn programming. I'm attending a coding academy at the moment (for reasons which are becoming increasingly obscure) and no one could possibly mistake the curriculum for a complete education, but unfortunately there's essentially no place offering anything better. CS grads can probably be trusted to have learned either Java, Python, or perhaps Javascript. They can probably discuss a bit about algorithmic complexity and may know something about compilers,
Re: (Score:1)
Yes, "real schools" that launder old money into credentials.
Re: (Score:2)
How about government stop paying for all schools for a while? And let the schools educational standards and tuition pricing stand on their own merits?
Watch out for scams! (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools scamming veterans. They offer fairly useless courses and the government pays.
Of course it would be good for veterans to learn coding but it should be a properly accredited school. It looks like there is a mechanism in place to properly vet (sic) schools and it should be followed.
Pizza and beer do not necessarily make a good school.
Re:Watch out for scams! (Score:5, Funny)
What kind of sleazy asshole would scam a veteran and think he could get away with it?
http://pacedm.com/2016/05/trum... [pacedm.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools scamming veterans. They offer fairly useless courses and the government pays.
At the same time, the rules on what the GI Bill can be used for are really strange in some instances. For example, you can use it toward flight school to get a commercial pilot's license. You can use it for vocational school to get electrical, plumbing, etc., qualified. But you can't use it to get a Ph.D. You also can't use it to get a second degree at the same level as one you already have. Did you get a BA in general studies and now you want an engineering degree? You're on your own. Did you earn a
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Does it cover foreign languages? If he wants to go into tech he should learn Hindi.
Re: (Score:2)
By learning Indian languages they'll be better able to fake an Indian accent, allowing them to get a job in the states.
Re: (Score:2)
If you think they do, then you don't.
Re: Watch out for scams! (Score:2)
If your going to be a dick, at least be one under your real account.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think it is about being a dick. It is about being fair to all Americans. The first thing you need to remember is that less than a quarter of the age eligible, Americans are even eligible to serve.
It isn't just a single factor, like weight, there are many, underlying conditions that make more than the majority ineligible. We need a plan the works for everyone. We will never reach that goal in practice; but we need to keep reaching for it. The current system caters to the elite and consigns the rest t
Re: (Score:2)
Seems to me, that's a resource allocation and management problem, that you hafta work 60+ hours per week, not that the vets can't handle it.
On top of that, if they're being paid salary, they're making 30% less per hour than they signed up for.
Re: Watch out for scams! (Score:3)
If your company is I.T. and has that high of required hours, either your making insane paychecks or your being scammed and the military guys are leaving because they see the bs.
Nobody with good skills should put up with those hours unless they decided the compensation is well worth it.
Re: (Score:2)
There are a lot of schools scamming everyone. The FTC and various state governments spend an inordinate amount of time investigating what amounts to a student loan fraud racket.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: "But with a wife and family, he couldn't dedic (Score:4, Informative)
He was paid wages for hose 12 years. He got *exactly* what he deserves.
Re: (Score:2)
He gave up the best young years of his life to defend your freedom while you were getting your education. Now that he's done, he should be able to get his education. Even if he got married during his young years, as you might have done.
Another point -- whether or not he had to fight in a war to defend your freedom is beyond his control. What he did is volunteer to be trained and serve, and even fight and die for your and my
Re: (Score:2)
I understand how the military gets misused by politicians owned by corporations. That doesn't mean we don't need to have a military in case a genuine, non-contrived need were to arise. I believe we should take care of these people. Educating them for a good job is probably better for society than letting them rot and have to be supported by taxpayers. Given the opportunity for educat
Re: (Score:2)
Well said. Of course the U.S. American idiots will be down-voting you to hell on here. Deplorable.
Re: (Score:2)
It would appear that you're real fuzzy on "war crime" and "complicit".
Betteridge's law of headlines (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
There are a good number of defence technology companies who will consider veterans.
Re: (Score:3)
There are a good number of defence technology companies who will consider veterans.
When I left the military, my first coding job was with a defense company. They hired vets for several reasons:
1. I already had a security clearance.
2. I knew military lingo and acronyms.
3. When interacting with our military clients, I knew that colonels and generals don't like to be addressed as "dude".
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, but... (Score:2)
I've had coworkers that were veterans and they got their masters degrees while in the military. There are apparently some really good C.S. programs like UMD that bend over backwards to accommodate their schedule and ensure credits transfer.
Better than a border wall or nukes (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Better means to spend tax money than waste it on a border wall or more nukes!
Spending programs can not be justified just by pointing out other spending that is even stupider.
Sure, except... (Score:2)
Coding School (Score:4, Insightful)
First we need a "coding school" that is worth a damn. For the rest of this post I am going to say programming and not coding.
No, these people are certainly turning out coders and not programmers. They will know git and unit testing, but they won't know Knuth or Turing from a hole in the ground.
If such a program is to be instituted, It's going to have to be designed by the likes of Google, Canonical, and even Microsoft.
The industry is not interested in training its own. Otherwise there wouldn't need to be these programs. But I'm taking the words "self paced" and "internship" to mean that you haven't seriously thought about this issue. Internships are not replacements for classroom instruction, and getting someone from being a complete novice to the point where it's even worth it to pair them with a more senior dev takes quite a lot of instruction.
I dont get it (Score:2, Insightful)
Why do Americans apparently feel such a massive debt of gratitude is appropriate for ALL military vets?
Apart from anything else, they chose the job.
Where's the recognition for the police or firefighters or others who clearly face far more danger in 1 day than the average so-called vet who spent their entire enlistment (which could be as small as 2 years) in some stateside base nowhere near any actual danger?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Where's the recognition for the police or firefighters or others who clearly face far more danger
Neither policing nor firefighting is particularly dangerous. Farmers, truck drivers, and retail clerks are all more likely to die or be injured on the job.
The most common reason that police die on the job is traffic accidents. The second most common reason is suicide.
Over a 30 year career, this is the number of times that most police officers fire their weapon in action: 0.
Being a cop in real life is not like it is on TV.
Re: (Score:2)
> Over a 30 year career, this is the number of times that most police officers fire their weapon in action: 0.
I bet thats also true of nearly all navy/airforce and maybe even most army vets.
Re: (Score:2)
People love firefighters. You can see the appreciation ooze from everybody if you're ever at the grocery store when they show up to restock the station. There's no lack of gratitude for them. Most states in the US have special license plates for firefighters because it's something that people appreciate (even if getting one is a bit tacky).
Cops are jerks often enough that nobody likes them. People often look ill at ease when they are around, even if they're doing nothing wrong. The only time you hear somebo
Re: (Score:2)
So you just went on a whole rant about why people join the military which has exactly didlly-squat to do with anything, least of all my point you were responding to, then made several ridiculous and badly spelled (and BTW very incorrect) assumptions about me just because your world view is clearly so tiny it only allows for 2 types of people. Well done dude. please give your single brain cell a rest now.
Re: (Score:2)
Not true. There's Samoa or Vanuatu, something like that.
Re: (Score:2)
A stitch in time saves nine
Re: (Score:2)
>> soldiers get paid crap salaries and don't have a union to provide protections
Nobody forced them to join up.
>> in exchange we'll give them schooling and healthcare when they get back.
Show me where thats oficially stated and I'll believe you.
Coding Schools Article (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Ugh, NO! (Score:2)
Not until *every* U.S. resident has access to such free education. We give these idiots enough already. We need to provide free educational services to everyone, regardless of what their past employment was.
hell no (Score:5, Insightful)
if you can't learn to code on your own you can't learn to code. This is not an industry where you can learn some skill and be done. Coders are constantly retraining themselves to handle new technologies. Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of the enlisted are enlisted because they couldn't go to college. Some are high school dropouts. Of course they're going to have trouble getting a regular job and living a regular life. They'd have the same problem whether they enlisted or not!
Citations with numbers to back your assertion please.
Re: (Score:2)
The military does require a High School diploma or GED to enlist now, so I was wrong about there being high school dropouts (only having a GED does technically make one a dropout but it sort of makes up for it). However, I couldn't find any number on whether they scored well on SAT or ACT tests, or whether they are college-bound.
There are some demographics here [pewsocialtrends.org].
Relatively few enlisted men and women are college graduates (4.1%) or have an advanced degree (0.5%). More than nine-in-ten (94.0%) are high school graduates and some of them have attended some college.
Obviously some of this is d
Vocations (Score:2)
The point of the coding school cannot be to learn how to code to a professional standard, because that takes years no matter how you approach it -- it's why we have the concept of a junior developer. The point of the coding school must be to learn how to learn how to program.
Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Your attitude is crap, and this statement is just as applicable to any coding school attendee. Do you imagine that it takes no time or money to attend those?
Personally I'm not in a hurry to judge people for their choices, or to say that
eight more years in and... (Score:2)
Title misleading (Score:2)
I think they should provide apptitute tests. (Score:2)
In particular for code but I think it would also benefit all ares of study I think no matter what you use the GI bill for you should be required to pass aptitude requirements to be sure you are actually suited to learning that skill and advised properly. But they can't just be paper tests but rather tests in addition to counselors that can provide exceptions to the tests. The counselors are then reviewed later to see if their exceptions were justified.
Not everyone is suited for coding. It's a special aptit
Coding is becoming relatively low wage! (Score:2)
Due to the growing infrastructure supporting the utilization (or if you are real engineer the misuse) of offshore coders, even formerly high rate positions are dropping to $25 per hour. Not much better than the proposed $15 per hour minimum wage for counter service jobs
4 years is to long but the tech schools (Score:2)
4 years is to long but the tech schools that are not in the 2 or 4 system need some over site.
lanwanprofessional is one where they are not very clear on what is really costs and they have the go hear and get job that pays X just like how ITT and others did it.
actually, we need blue-collars trades as well (Score:2)
As such, we need to make community colleges free (based on grades), not just to vets, but those that have graduated recently, as well as those that were laid off.
Yes (Score:2)
"Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools?"
Only if veterans of Russian Army.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually there are US Army vets that are Russian Army vets also and they weren't defectors. My room mate was one, funniest thing he did is he didn't understand suppressive fire in a 10x10 shoot house with his m249. He unloaded 150 rounds , from the hip, at a target 6-8 feet from the wall, loud as f***k being in that room.
Scope creep (Score:1)
Shit, folks, the federal government can't even run its veterans' hospitals well. And you want to give it more to screw up?
When they've gotten the hang of that existing responsibility, then it might make sense to expand their responsibilities. Not before.
Train then outsource, repeat (Score:1)
Then re-train them again for whatever is job fashionable. Repeat until money is exhausted.
We need trade schools to teach skills that cant be so easily outsourced. Maybe Industrial Robot Repair,
Only veterans? (Score:2)
Scholarships for vocational programs is one of the most useful and biggest payoff services that a government can provide. And coding schools can be extremely inexpensive as they can be largely automated and teachers outsourced to countries with reasonable labor costs. We can in fact argue if we need scholarships as such or make classes so inexpensive that a scholarship is not usually needed.
Sounds like MCSE bootcamps from the 90s (Score:2)
Being on the IT side of the house, I distinctly remember MCSE, Solaris and other for-profit bootcamps popping up towards the top of the dotcom bubble in the late 90s. They also loudly touted the fact that they accepted veterans' benefits as payment and I'm sure they made a lot of money doing this -- similar to the ITT Tech or DeVry style schools.
I guess my question is what a coder bootcamp prepares you to do. Do they just teach one or two JavaScript frameworks like node.js or Ruby on Rails or something? Wha
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think the veterans referred to in TFA are ex-members of the Punjab Fusliers.
Re: (Score:2)
Disappointed to see this comment down-voted. This was exactly my reaction upon reading the comment as well, even though I agree with it. Bloody ACs and their poor education! If only there was some kind of free education we could give them...
Re: (Score:2)
The idea of giving veterans a leg up is hardly new, and in and of itself I can't imagine why it would be controversial. Now whether it should just be making more educational opportunities available, or trying to target specific occupations is a matter of debate.
As I sidenote, many years ago, at the dawn of my professional IT career, I installed and maintained POS software that had been developed by a fellow who got his start in programming via GI benefits after his tour of duty in Vietnam. He did pretty dar
Re:ugh (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive. The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan to buy a house in San Jose, one of the most expensive housing markets in the world, and over the life of the loan I will get about $200k in taxpayer f
Re:ugh (Score:5, Informative)
There are abuses on both sides. Those that get good benefits they didn't "need", and those who need a benefit that is provided in some form, but not in the form they need (education for this guy, housing for the homeless vets).
Re:ugh (Score:4, Interesting)
The benefits are a lure to get people in.
I wonder how effective that is. I enlisted in the Marines on my 18th birthday, and I had never heard of any benefits (and in general, had no idea what I was signing up for). Maybe the more brain-oriented branches (AF, Navy) are different, but I never heard any Marine say he enlisted to pay for college, or to get a home loan.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive.
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector, and volunteering is more noble than otherwise. I've never served in the military, and appreciate that you and others volunteered to risk you life for the country and its people - or for others elsewhere. I have no problem with affording some of my tax dollars to help express that appreciation, even after you separate from service.
The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan ... which I am happy to accept but certainly don't "need". Yet many veterans living in trailer parks don't have the ability or knowledge to benefit from the same program.
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities to learn regul
Re: (Score:2)
I hate to say this; but, after you work out all the benefits, the pay in the military is significantly more than most of the people, in the military, would receive in the private sector.
Re: (Score:3)
Probably because, they don't know, how to use commas, either.
Re: (Score:2)
True, but I've never had a job where I couldn't decide where in the country to live, or one that was likely to get me shot at, especially without the option of hitting the dirt and waiting for people who knew what they were doing to deal with the shooters.
Re:ugh (Score:5, Informative)
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector
You imagine wrong. For an 18 year old high school graduate, the pay is pretty good. When you add in basic necessities that are provided for free (food, housing, ammunition), it is a pretty good deal
... and volunteering is more noble than otherwise.
My reasons for joining had nothing to do with being "noble" or "serving my country" or any of that crap. It was a testosterone driven desire for adventure. I wanted to jump out of airplanes, ride in helicopters, and go see the world (Yes, I did all of those things as a Marine).
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities ...
Veterans benefits, like any other entitlement, will always be twisted toward those that can organize, manipulate the system, and contribute to politicians, ... in other words successful people that don't really need the benefits.
Giving you some opportunity to catch up with the rest of us seems reasonable.
Except that we don't need to "catch up". According to the DOL, veterans are doing better than average [dol.gov] in median income.
Re: (Score:2)
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
Re: (Score:3)
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
Okay, but I don't think there is any catching up to do. I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world, I had learned to speak some Japanese and Tagalog, and even more Mandarin (and eventually married a Chinese girl), and that opened a lot of opportunities in business an
Re: (Score:3)
I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world,
A bit off topic... I agreed to your statement here. Though, I would add that it is not just military experience, but rather any real life experience would give a head start in college education. Simply go directly from high school to college isn't for most people. Majority of them should at least come out of school and work in order to see what the real world is. Then they should get some ideas about what they are expecting before they go back to take higher education. The real world experience will help th
Re: (Score:1)
No, it's still worth saying.
Fuck the veterans. Did they or did they not get paid? Because I'm pretty sure being stupid enough to get a job in the army is still getting a job. There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
Part of the benefits package that they have contracted too be paid is additional education during and after service. A major point of the article is that it might have broader societal advantages if that educational benefit could be used on coder schools.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, you can learn everything "college" (or coding school) will teach you from buying last year's texts at 10% of the price, and reading them yourself. But if that's as effective, why aren't more people doing it?
Re: (Score:3)
If you need more structure in your education, code monkey almost certainly isn't a good career choice for you.
You're going to get an education more suited to writing good code from a philosophy major than you are from a coding school.
Re: (Score:2)
The best coders understand this and spend 20% or more working as a BA, making sure that the results match the expectations. Something going to a structured program with a fixed syllabus helps teach. Rather than feral code monkeys that are flinging brown code on the wall to see what sticks.
Re: (Score:2)
My code doesn't suck, because I'm not a coder. Tiny bits of scripting are all I'll touch. I don't have the patience for it. Most of my time is interacting with users, assessing their needs, and making the machines work to do what they need (and sometimes what they want).
But the best coders learned how to code starting as kids, taking apart code and learning how it works, adding stuff to it, making it better, finding bugs and fixing them. They did it on their own, not being taught. By the time they got
Re: (Score:1)
The days of becoming a programmer with an education are over. As someone who has a master's degree in CS and someone who has written open source software, there are no jobs for me anywhere. I have proof I can write quality software, and nobody ever looks at it. They see European ancestry in the name on my resume and they reject me immediately, because I happen to be a white man.
Coding is for unskilled brown code monkeys. Skilled programmers are not wanted.
Re: (Score:2)
Where are you applying? Big companies in small towns?