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Trump's Next Immigration Move To Affect H-1B Visas; Require Tech Companies To Try To Hire Americans First: Bloomberg (bloomberg.com) 834

AdamnSelene writes: A report in Bloomberg describes a draft executive order that will hit the tech industry hard and potentially change the way those companies recruit workers from abroad. The H-1B, L-1, E-2, and B1 work visa programs would be targeted by requiring companies to prioritize higher-paid immigrant workers over lower-paid workers. In addition, the order will impose statistical reporting requirements on tech companies who sponsor workers under these programs. The order is expected to impact STEM workers from India the most. Penguinisto adds: If (perhaps when) the president follows through, his next move could limit or at least seriously alter the way H-1B visas are distributed, putting U.S. citizens at a higher priority, and possibly restricting H1-B visas tighter. From the article: "If implemented, the reforms could shift the way American companies like Microsoft, Amazon and Apple recruit talent and force wholesale changes at Indian companies such as Infosys and Wipro. Businesses would have to try to hire Americans first and if they recruit foreign workers, priority would be given to the most highly paid. "Our country's immigration policies should be designed and implemented to serve, first and foremost, the U.S. national interest," the draft proposal reads, according to a copy reviewed by Bloomberg. "Visa programs for foreign workers should be administered in a manner that protects the civil rights of American workers and current lawful residents, and that prioritizes the protection of American workers -- our forgotten working people -- and the jobs they hold."
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Trump's Next Immigration Move To Affect H-1B Visas; Require Tech Companies To Try To Hire Americans First: Bloomberg

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  • About (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:06PM (#53770851)

    fucking TIME!

    • Re: About (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Good.

      And fuck anyone who thinks differently. You're the reason why I voted for Trump.

    • Re:About (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:30PM (#53771341)

      Do you support the $15 minimum wage, which it touted as a way of giving millions of unskilled workers a living wage?

      Or is your position something like: that sounds nice, and I'm sure some voting bloc is cheering now but what will really happen is that employment will be reduced and the work will be automated and/or moved elsewhere. So the workers that are getting "lifted up" may find themselves out of a job.

      Guess what. Technology workers like you and me aren't immune to the same damn laws of capitalism. Businesses will find a way to reduce costs and punch up their profits, no matter what populist measures are passed by the politicians.

      • by NotSoHeavyD3 ( 1400425 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:56PM (#53771505)

        Guess what. Technology workers like you and me aren't immune to the same damn laws of capitalism. Businesses will find a way to reduce costs and punch up their profits, no matter what populist measures are passed by the politicians.

        I guess you missed it. The big bitch session about H1B's is that it isn't capitalism, it's cronyism. It's using government to interfere with the market by letting business use effectively indentured servants. They bring people in that don't have the knowledge about how much the job is actually worth, suppressing wages. Then when they find out they're getting screwed just like US citizens they have no recourse since if they raise a stink they lose their status and have to go back while the company gets yet another sucker. If this was capitalism then the foreign candidates would just work for somebody else that actually paid them what they're worth but with the H1B program they're prevented from taking any action. But hey, it's not as though this is the only time a company thought that using cronyism is a hell of a lot better deal than actual capitalism.

        • by Pfhorrest ( 545131 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @02:43AM (#53772165) Homepage Journal

          It's not a free market. It's most definitely capitalism. They're not the same thing.

        • by SvnLyrBrto ( 62138 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @02:59AM (#53772203)

          That's why I personally think it's a better idea to scrap H1Bs entirely and replace them with a fast-track to actual green cards and citizenship for skilled* workers in the STEM fields. Take away the ability of employers to abuse immigrant workers with visas tied to specific jobs. And give same immigrants the resources and legal legitimacy to put down roots and contribute back to society; rather than making a quick buck and running or sending remittances back overseas. Everybody (except employers who WANT to abuse and underpay their workers... so everybody worth giving a crap about) wins.

          (*And I do mean provably-skilled workers though; NOT those clowns who pad their resume out to 10 pages, list so many certifications that the candidate wouldn't have had time to actually do any work, and whose degree comes from "Initech auto body, project management, and computer science academy".)

      • The problem with pushing the wage floor up like that in places where it's happening is that there's basically no more places to build houses, apartments, etc, and people are just going to outbid one another for what few places are available until $15 an hour just isn't enough to pay for it. People need to wake up and realize that a low money supply isn't what makes you unable to afford something, rather it's the overall economy growing while the availability of resources (in this case, housing) does not.

        In

    • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:22AM (#53771635)

      All you have to do is insist that any person hired on H1B receive a salary 25% higher than the highest paid equivalent level US person in the company. If they are willing to pay the premium then it's pretty clear it's not bullsh*t to say they are more qualified for the job. I've seen proposals to simply fix the salary at say $150K . but a fixed salary can't span the distance from academia to industry or across various types of work.

      As someone who handles a lot of resumes I plainly see that many foreign applicants are infact more qualified in some cases. So I don't think they should end the H1B program. They just need to end the abuse of it.

    • Re:About (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Proudrooster ( 580120 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:23AM (#53773021) Homepage

      No wonder the tech community is so upset with Trump. Sergey, Tim, Picachu.

      Yes, we are a nation of immigrants, but at some point the country needs sustainable, reliable employment that doesn't shift or outsource with the wind.

      Imagine the following. Florida tells Disney they will have to move out of Orlanda because they found a Chineese company willing to come in and pay more taxes. They are generous and give Disney 6-months to relocate.

      That is equivalent of telling American workers they are going to lose their job to H1Bs or outsourcing. They have houses, families, communities, commitments, other employment. It just isn't feasible.

      So either we have unfettered capitalism, where companies can move to Ireland for Tax Evasion and/or use the government to give them unlimited, cheap labor either through visa programs or just simply turning a blind eye to immigration enforcement, OR THE PEOPLE of the USA have a leader that is going to inject sanity into the system and restrain capitalism to the point where we can have stability and a viable middle class.

      I for one do not want unrestrained laissez faire capitalism. If I wanted that, I could go work in Bejing where capitalism is choking out the Sun and factories like FoxConn have to put up suicide nets.

      Lastly, if we aren't producing workers that are college and/or career ready, CHANGE THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM. I do not know of a single state that REQUIRES COMPUTER PROGRAMMING TO GRADUATE. Prove me wrong, anybody. So what do you expect? Kids who are qualified to fill out worksheets. It's great!

      Our politicians scream for 21-st Century SKILLS, STEM and Skills, HI-Tech workers, yet these are the SAME PEOPLE WHO VOTE TO APPROVED ANEMIC EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS that do no include ANY 21st Century STEM, or HI-TECH. If something is a priority, MAKE IT A PRIORITY. Don't just talk about it and say, "Oh golly gee, wish we had more kids with 21st Century skills."

      You would think in our day and age DIGITAL LITERACY at a minimum would be required, but sadly we don't even have that in our educational system.

      So, I say, GO TRUMP! Be a man of action. The time for talking is over and the time for doing has begun. Maybe the other lip service politicians can learn something from you. Layeth the smacketh dowm brother!

      • Re:About (Score:4, Interesting)

        by meta-monkey ( 321000 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @11:47AM (#53774193) Journal

        Our politicians scream for 21-st Century SKILLS, STEM and Skills, HI-Tech workers, yet these are the SAME PEOPLE WHO VOTE TO APPROVED ANEMIC EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS that do no include ANY 21st Century STEM, or HI-TECH. If something is a priority, MAKE IT A PRIORITY. Don't just talk about it and say, "Oh golly gee, wish we had more kids with 21st Century skills."

        But we still need simple jobs for simple people. Half of people have an IQ below 100. School doesn't make you any smarter (go in with 90 IQ, come out with 90 IQ). We're not going to be turning these people into electrical engineers no matter how much money you throw at STEM education.

  • OK, help me out... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) * on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:10PM (#53770867)

    So, what's the "group think" on this one? Because I don't want to be called a racist or a xenophobe...

    • by The Joe Kewl ( 532609 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:13PM (#53770891)

      Call me whatever the F you want. I wish this was around 7 years ago when I got outsourced after 9 1/2 years with my previous company!

    • by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:14PM (#53770897)

      its not racist when you can SEE with your own lying eyes that the bay area companies (I live here) are going out of their way to hire folks from india and china, first. the ONLY reason they do this is for money and servitude reasons.

      when I interview and everyone on the table is indian, I can tell that there is a total loss of BALANCE in racial and cultural mix. the bay area is very india-populated but not THAT much that 99% of the folks I talk to in every single interview are all indian, with occasional chinese.

      it simply does not represent the population mix and that's obvious to anyone who spends even a week here.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:22PM (#53770955)

        Not just Bay Area. Houston too. H1-B needs to end. No more indentured servitude.

      • by elrous0 ( 869638 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:28PM (#53771011)

        its not racist when you can SEE with your own lying eyes that the bay area companies (I live here) are going out of their way to hire folks from india and china, first. the ONLY reason they do this is for money and servitude reasons.

        It's even worse when you see every U.S. President and Congressman (before now) taking big fat corporate campaign donations to play along. If Hillary had been elected, the corrupt H1B program would have at the very least stayed the same. At worst they would have gotten even more H1B's.

        Good to finally have a President who's willing to put his own country, and its citizens, first again. It's been a long time.

        • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:24PM (#53771301)

          This is what happens when the POTUS didn't take a single fucking dime from a single PAC or Corporation. He's fucking crazy but at least he's not a whore and some of what he's doing needed to be done. It wouldn't ever get done with a traditional whore politician. If we can somehow do something about campaign finance maybe this could be the norm.

    • by pla ( 258480 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:19PM (#53770917) Journal
      Slashdot has been screaming for exactly this for literally decades now. So, I fully expect this particular conversation to get ugly

      That said - So far, Trump has done exactly what he said he would do. The first two or three days, okay, I'll admit it took us by surprise that a politician (new to it or not) didn't lie. At this point, anyone not expecting exactly this either wasn't paying attention during the election, or is just plain delusional.

      "May you live in exciting times"...
      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by elrous0 ( 869638 )

        I'll admit it took us by surprise that a politician (new to it or not) didn't lie.

        Isn't it sad how corrupt politics has become that it actually surprises us to see a President attempt to actually deliver on his promises?

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          That's because most Slashdotters are either too young to remember Reagan, or not old enough to have understood what he was doing. Not only did he spend four years keeping as many campaign promises as he could, he ran for re-election on his record and earned another four years.
          • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:17PM (#53771253)

            Interesting you should say that. Looks like Reagan had an unusually low percentage [fivethirtyeight.com] of kept promises compared to other presidents.

            But you know, they didn't call him the teflon president for nothing. The way his legend has grown over the years, seems like embalming fluid must have been fortified with teflon.

          • That's because most Slashdotters are either too young to remember Reagan, or not old enough to have understood what he was doing. Not only did he spend four years keeping as many campaign promises as he could, he ran for re-election on his record and earned another four years.

            Reagan was also very good at warming up to people though, (hence the name "The Great Communicator") which is why he totally, utterly destroyed Carter in 1980 and Mondale in 1984. Trump has no filter though, so I doubt he can rally people as well as Reagan. Ultimately, time will tell.

      • by R_Ramjet ( 994878 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:24PM (#53771303)
        Actually, most presidents do in fact keep most of their campaign promises...

        "Political scientists have been studying the question of campaign promises for almost 50 years, and the results are remarkably consistent. Most of the literature suggests that presidents make at least a “good faith” effort to keep an average of about two-thirds of their campaign promises..."

        https://fivethirtyeight.com/fe... [fivethirtyeight.com]
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:21PM (#53770937)

      I'll help you out, I'm from East Europe, a US company with offices in here once hired some of us, some people from Southeast Asia and some people from Latin America, with not much saying about the project, just the required skills, then they shipped all of us to the West Coast for training, and once we were there, they told us that the American engineers were going to train us (including immigrants with green cards and American born), and afterwards they were going to be fired, and the projects moved abroad, while a few got H-1B visas to continue in site.

      We completed the training, and after coming back, I resigned as soon as possible.

      So, to make it easy for you. Any people with a moral compass will tell you that this visa programmes are being abused, and as a foreigner that was tricked into this miserable hamster wheel of abusive capitalism. I tell you:

      No, this isn't racist at all. They are making a huge profit with this in detriment of the American people.

      Companies should hire locally, and only bring foreign TALENT when it is really that, a very hard to get skill, not cheap paid engineers.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I'm all OK about the H1B abuse ending. That's not xenophobic or racist.

      However, the abuse, or well, what I consider abuse, is importing a bunch of mediocre people from cheap countries to make them slaves in the US that have to share a small apartment because they can't afford anything decent by themselves.

      However there's many talented people abroad and to be honest if they are paid above average I wouldn't have any quota. Yes, you can import a million Indians if you want as long as you pay them whatever the

    • by Samantha Wright ( 1324923 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:25PM (#53771305) Homepage Journal
      The H-1B visa was a mistake. Even in Canada, employers have to go through a lengthy Labour Market Impact Assessment process [cic.gc.ca] before they can hire a temporary foreign worker, and some companies have had their privileges to do so revoked [canada.ca] because they misrepresented their case and made it look like Canadians weren't available to do the job. We also have tighter salary laws. Extreme sub-market wages hurt everyone in the end—including the company, which ends up with damaged morale, weakened culture, and subpar work caused by inadequate training.
    • by scamper_22 ( 1073470 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:44PM (#53771409)

      Well I'll bite. I think David Frum said it most accurately.
      "When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals wonâ(TM)t do"

      It applies to most of Trump's 'core issues'. In and of themselves, they're not extreme issues.

      Controlling the border
      Keeping good jobs in America ...
      These used to be normal bread and butter conversations. It wasn't that long ago, tariffs were just regular policy. So to was controlling immigration numbers. There's nothing crazy or racist or xenophobic about any of it in and of itself.

      The problem is that people have been screaming about their issues for decades now and the 'mainstream' political parties have basically ignored it at best. At worst, they've made it horrible to even bring it up (calling someone racist...)

      For people on slashdot, it might be the H1B issue. For others, its the border. For others, it's their factory job.

      • Well I'll bite. I think David Frum said it most accurately. "When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals wonÃ(TM)t do"

        Harris said something similar in 2003ish I believe:

        "The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists.

        To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization."


        I mention t

  • ... regional offices outside of the USA? Will they have to import American workers, or are they still allowed to hire local talent?

    • Aren't most regional offices incorporated in the country they are located in to avoid having to pay taxes in the US? This wouldn't really affect them then.

      • by mark-t ( 151149 )
        Not always... sometimes it is simply more convenient for them to have offices in areas where they do international business, and in many cases, particularly in urban settings, it is simply more convenient to hire people that are local to the area than to require someone to effectively permanently relocate if the position is not a temporary one.
    • by msauve ( 701917 )
      "regional offices outside of the USA? Will they have to import American workers"

      I'm thinking that local workers don't need US H-1B visas to work in their own country.
    • by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @12:23AM (#53771643)

      What US visa is required for a US company to hire someone in Bangalore to work in their Bangalore office?

      Answer: None. US immigration law is utterly irrelevant for that job, with or without this proposed order.

  • isnt that the point, if you looked everywhere in the country and could not find qualified personal, then you get into the H1 program??

    • by slew ( 2918 )

      isnt that the point, if you looked everywhere in the country and could not find qualified personal, then you get into the H1 program??

      In *theory* yes, in practice there are a few loopholes...

      1. Pay at least $60K and the position is *deemed* to be highly qualified
      2. Hire for a University
      3. Advertise widely for a junior title position and hire a few on the cheap, then use this salary level to automatically qualify future H1b candidates by saying it is the same title as the previous position already advertised and filled (the trick used by the big consulting companies that hire many folks with "identical" titles).

      Fixing the loopholes will go

    • In theory that is how it works.

      In practice, they sabotage their search for US people in order to claim they couldn't find anyone.

      For example, I get lots and lots of emails from recruiters asking if I'm interested in a job opening that is well below my level of experience, and thus pays a much lower salary. The positions are also not in the state I live in, and I've never expressed any interest in moving to that state in any resume I've posted/emailed/sent out.

      They use my rejection (as well as several other

  • by mveloso ( 325617 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:21PM (#53770939)

    If you make sure an H1B holder is paid over $100k a year the abuses will stop.

    Or require them to be paid the average prevailing wage of the position in the CEO's MSA.

    Either one will kill large chunks of the body-shop industry.

    Lastly, put in a bounty program for body shops that use B1 visa holders for body shopping. Reporters get 40% of the imposed fine, which is a multiple of the salary delta between the body shoppers and the equivalent FTE.

    • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:18PM (#53771259)
      when you factor in training. And that's before we talk benefits, since most of these guys work for contractors. Also their young, but being here on work Visas nobody complains about age discrimination when their contracts don't get renewed past 40.

      You're massively underestimating how profitable the abuse here is because the scale of it is hard to grasp. It's completely pervasive. Anything less than $300k (adjusted yearly for inflation) isn't enough. Remember: these Visas are suppose to be for geniuses. The best and brightest. It's 2017. A code monkey makes $100k, especially on the West Coast.
  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:27PM (#53771001)
    Stop the fraud. These companies are firing Americans and replacing them with H1B individuals. And saying we can't find Americans with the skills! If the Americans they are firing don't have the skills, how could they be asked to train their replacements.

    And if their replacements had the skills, why would they need training!

    I have never been trained by an individual I was replacing ;) I was just dropped in the fire.
  • by Streetlight ( 1102081 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @10:54PM (#53771151) Journal
    set the same persons up in an overseas establishment. Send those who they replace to the establishment to train their "replacements". Depending on the foreign establishment, the new employees will get $10 k to $20 k per year, much more if they're in a European country, but not what they'd get in Silicon Valley. Seems like a lot of that's going on now.
  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:11PM (#53771225)
    at least for H1-B. Last I heard they were legally required to attest they could not find a qualified American (fat lot of good that does).
    • by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @01:36AM (#53771981)
      It's widely abused. You've seen those job advertisements which require a dozen specific degrees and certifications, x years experience in one field, y years experience in another somewhat related field, and z years experience in a completely unrelated field? Those are H1-B ads. They already know which foreigner they want to hire, and they tailor the job requirements to exactly match that person. This reduces the chance that any American will "qualify" for the job to near zero, and they can honestly say that there were no qualified American applicants.
  • by The Raven ( 30575 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:12PM (#53771233) Homepage

    I think we should abandon H1-B completely. If someone wants to work in the US, and has a job lined up here, then we should allow them to become a citizen within a year assuming they jump through the necessary hoops (take a night class, pass the citizenship exam, etc). This idiocy of requiring people to wait years, sometimes over a decade, to become a citizen while they work in the US at a well paying job is stupid.

    We are a nation of immigrants. It's in most of our blood. Immigrants start businesses [kauffman.org] far more than native born Americans because they are risk takers... if they are willing to uproot themselves and move to a foreign land, they are likely willing to take other risks as well. That kind of risk taking is what built our nation, and shutting it out only harms us in the long run.

    The H1-B program creates trapped workers who have to toe the line and rock no boats, lest they be fired and deported. This allows companies to abuse them in ways citizens would not put up with. An immigrant with citizenship is less of a threat to the livelihood of tech workers than an H1-B visitor, as companies would not be in a position to deport them if they asked for a raise; they could look for other jobs with impunity, and thus would compete on equal footing... and similarly, would not have to put up with artificially depressed wages.

    So open up immigration, and fuck the stupid fake 'work' visas.

  • by Lokubanda ( 4854799 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:31PM (#53771345)
    I worked for Microsoft north of 15 years. My division hired something like 70 new H1Bs this year alone (all straight out college). I was one of the ones who trained three new hires. My job was gone in the next round of layoffs. Any company has massive layoffs should be mandated to first atleast consider the laid off staff before getting H1Bs. BTW, as an older and experienced person I command more than the younger H1Bs. It is baloney that the companies cant find talent locally. It is just the companies do not want to pay for it. BTW, I am of Indian ancestory.
  • by nomad63 ( 686331 ) on Monday January 30, 2017 @11:45PM (#53771417)
    I mean wasn't the existing American workers would be given priority and in the case that no one has been found in a certain time like 3 weeks or so, then the position would be open to H1B wrkers. At least this is what I remember from my H1B days back about 20 years ago. But I know these indian a-hole companies, one of which was my visa sponsor and their recruitment ad was a page of incomprehensible goobledy-gook about my position , posted on an obscure bulletin board where I worked. At the time, the high school grad, so called sysadmins were turning their nose down to salaries I have been given and there was no word about recession. So, I did not think too much ab out it. Once I was on my way to my green card, thru marriage (and not a sham one if you have to ask) when I lost my job at the 2001 dot com bust, I realized what a peon I had been first time around. Nowadays, H1B is another way of saying cheap labor. At least at the time I was hired, I was being paid a market average salary. Now, I know Indian workers in So Cal, making 2/3 of what I was making in the same position and I was barely making the ends meet. T hey obviously were living in below standard levels. I do not have anything against these people as long as they are getting paid a salary as good as an american worker gets but companies undercutting the American workers by offering headcount 10-20-30% less than an their American equivalents is a sham, from which ever point you look at. Hence F*** Zuckerberg,, F*** Nadella, F*** Pichai and all their cohorts. Do not use these visas for things they are not introduced for. Taxpayers are not supposed to pay fr your way to the top. You are running a business. Bear the expenses like any smaller company does..
  • by ugen ( 93902 ) on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @01:00AM (#53771835)

    I happen to visit a forum of US immigrants of certain Eastern-European origin. Most are in IT jobs, and came here by way of H1B visa (though significant portion have been sponsored for a permanent residency by now). They are largely vehemently pro-Trump, islamophobic (and generally harbor great dislike and disdain for all "brown people", be that middle-easterners, hispanics or asians). I find the current situation not a little ironic - in a way wouldn't it be poetic justice if they were hit by the very policies they so feverishly support?

    Not that I specifically wish this upon anyone or their family, but if the choice must be made - these people surely deserve it more than refugees from war-torn countries.

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