Labor Department Sues Oracle For Paying White Men More (usatoday.com) 317
An anonymous reader quotes a report from USA Today: Oracle is being sued by the Labor Department for paying white men more than their counterparts and for favoring Asian workers when recruiting and hiring for technical roles. The administrative lawsuit is the latest from the Labor Department to take aim at the human resources practices of major technology companies. The Labor Department warned the lawsuit could cost Oracle hundreds of millions in federal contracts. Oracle makes software and hardware used by the federal government. "The complaint is politically motivated, based on false allegations, and wholly without merit," Oracle spokesman Deborah Hellinger said in a statement. "Oracle values diversity and inclusion, and is a responsible equal opportunity and affirmative action employer. Our hiring and pay decisions are non-discriminatory and made based on legitimate business factors including experience and merit." The lawsuit is the result of an Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs review of Oracle's equal employment opportunity practices, the Labor Department said. According to the lawsuit, Oracle America paid white male workers more, leading to pay discrimination against women, African American and Asian employees. The Labor Department also accused Oracle of favoring Asians for product development and other technical roles, resulting in discrimination against non-Asian applicants. Oracle refused to comply with the Labor Department's investigation, which began in 2014, such as refusing to provide compensation data for all employees, complete hiring data for certain business lines and employee complaints of discrimination, according to the federal agency.
So Oracle discriminated (Score:5, Funny)
Against Asians, but at the same time, on different aspect, against everyone else in favor of Asians.
That's quite discriminatory indeed, albeit, not quite logical.
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This is what happens when you base your definition of 'discrimination' on statistics rather then any real facts.
It helps if you use a definition of 'discrimination' that includes 'sub conscious wholly unintentional acts' as discrimination.
Basically if you don't meet the labor departments hiring quota's you can expect to get in trouble regardless of the reality on the ground of who is actually qualified and interested in working for you.
Has someone actually claimed they were discriminated against?
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We don't know because that is one of the things in the last sentence of the post that they refused to release...
Oracle refused to comply with the Labor Department's investigation, which began in 2014, such as refusing to provide compensation data for all employees, complete hiring data for certain business lines and employee complaints of discrimination, according to the federal agency.
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It seems they want to hire more Asians, BUT pay them less, for whatever reason or perception.
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That's why co's like visa workers: they often DO work harder and longer because the money they receive goes further. They are building up a nest egg such that they want to get as much as possible during their short stint, and so avoid anything that may get them terminated. The world is lopsided.
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Visa workers are well aware that they are being exploited. They are working till they can get their GCs and then do their own share of discrimination against the next wave of immigrants. Thats the American way. America's success is built on the exploitation of successive waves of immigrants. Every immigrant gets exploited and his/her American born children grow up to exploit the next wave of immigrant.
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Most H1Bs in the valley are paid 90-120K. 100K will not be an adequate wall. Companies will raise their salaries by 10%.
Re:So Oracle discriminated (Score:5, Insightful)
It is true that the article is written poorly, but Oracle is in fact discriminating against everybody. This is true of many companies.
The way it works is simple:
The managers are racist. They pay X group more - usually white men.
But the company does not WANT to pay a lot of money. So the Hiring managers are told to actively find people that are not white men. Then they offer these hiring less money.
To work like this it requires a wide spread racism among hiring companies combined with a slightly desperate population.
Honestly, if they stop there, it's not that bad. They sift off the cream of desperate people, helping them out. Theoretically the company would end up dominated by the disadvantaged group.
But it doesn't stop. What happens next is the real problem, internal discrimination.:
When it comes time to promote people, they only promote the X group (white men). After all. those were the people getting paid the most and who, because of internal discrimination, were given both the best opportunities and the most credit.
So you end up with a racist company paying X group more, while proudly proclaiming how many minorities they hire - even while they underpay them.
Re:So Oracle discriminated (Score:5, Interesting)
Asians is code word for Indians. The key thing about Indians is the Indians coming to the US are coming from the top levels of Indian society. They are not used to being the underdog. Rather they are used to being the boss so they rise fast in a meritocracy as they do not have any hangups like US born minorities holding them back. Indians are also pretty racist. India itself has multiple ethnic groups and people favour their own ethnic group. When Indians get into hiring manager positions they hire Indians only as far as possible that too from their own ethnic group. They will hire a white if they cant get a sutable Indian. They will hardly ever hire a black or latino due to the Indian fetish for fair skin they thinks whites are smarter. However Indians dont discriminate between men and women when hiring. If Oracle is having mostly Asian aka Indian hires it means that Indians have reached middle management in Oracle and controlling the hiring. At the same time the old school whites still left are probably the critical folks or those who know where the skeletons are buried so they are paid far higher than the norm (In fact this whole case is probably because one of these folks felt they were not getting enough to keep shut about the skeletons)
Re:So Oracle discriminated (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked at sun for about 5 years and was let go when oracle bought sun.
I worked at the menlo park main campus. I am older than 50 and I'm white. during my 5 years there, I got good reviews and was the main guy for one of the products (software) that ships on sun servers.
all you have to do is walk around the outside of any major silicon valley campus and you'll see the same thing over and over. yes, its mostly indian and we all know this, even though the media does not want to outright say it.
and I'm 90% certain that I was let go because all the rest of my group was indian and I was making a good salary there.
it happens to me at almost every place I'm at, these days. the inevitable firing when the numbers from the company go downward and they need a quick 'profit boost' by letting go of the senior and well-paid engineers. this rarely happens to the indians, though.
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High risk high reward. Who would you rather be? Underpaid but safe as firing you makes the average salary go up or overpaid but have a target on your back. I prefer overpaid. I can always get a new job and as most HR managers have no idea of how to offer comp they look at last salary and base the offer off it
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I worked at sun for about 5 years and was let go when oracle bought sun.
I worked at the menlo park main campus. I am older than 50 and I'm white. during my 5 years there, I got good reviews and was the main guy for one of the products (software) that ships on sun servers.
all you have to do is walk around the outside of any major silicon valley campus and you'll see the same thing over and over. yes, its mostly indian and we all know this, even though the media does not want to outright say it.
and I'm 90% certain that I was let go because all the rest of my group was indian and I was making a good salary there.
it happens to me at almost every place I'm at, these days. the inevitable firing when the numbers from the company go downward and they need a quick 'profit boost' by letting go of the senior and well-paid engineers. this rarely happens to the indians, though.
Speaking of the large Indian population - when did KSJO become a Bollywood station???
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It's the famous and highly complex two-way discrimination.
It's so uncommon because it requires that you focus your discrimination across the board.
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Not every difference can be blamed on discrimination. A married man has to support his wife and children, typically, therefore has the need to earn more, and will sacrifice more to do it, in terms of working longer hours, or even backstabbing coworkers in order to get promoted.
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Really? You've never met a woman that's retired? None of your acquaintances have taken maternity leave or opted to spend their child's early years at home? You don't know any students? You don't know any divorcees?
Do you know any women at all?
Merit over Intersectionalist Bingo Quotas (Score:2)
This is a load of claptrap. You don't hire to fill quotas unless you're government. You hire the best candidate to do a job.
You pay what the market is willing to bear and what that employee negotiates.
If an employee doesn't ask for raises outside of normal performance increases, thats on the employee.
also, First Post
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This is a load of claptrap. You don't hire to fill quotas unless you're government. You hire the best candidate to do a job.
You pay what the market is willing to bear and what that employee negotiates.
Unless you don't...
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Well, if the employee doesn't like what they are offered, or think they can get more elsewhere, damn, they can either negotiate or go elsewhere. Nothing *forcing* them to stay.
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I've been in the work-world long enough to know that social factors play a large role in actual hiring decisions/preferences. Humans are social animals and tribal by nature/habit.
We like to THINK we are objective, but in practice we are not. We unconsciously prefer people who think like and have a background similar to ourselves. We don't want mental-world-view-mismatches that take us out of our comfort zone.
Once I inadverte
Re: Merit over Intersectionalist Bingo Quotas (Score:2, Funny)
It's also bizarre to use your slashdot handle on an application.
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You don't hire to fill quotas unless you're government. You hire the best candidate to do a job.
Tell that to Intel Corp. and their "diversity initiative". Managers were essentially* barred from hiring men unless from a distinct minority (black, hispanic, american indian).
*I don't believe there is written directive to this end, but more than one manager told me directly that this was the case and that it was not uncertain that their own performance reviews depended on their "diversity".
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Because Asian and White males are ignored.
They won't blow the whistle because they saw what happened to people like me (and a couple others) who dared to not agree with the progrom. One was a quite Sr manager who simply had enough and sent a blistering email to executive management, direct management, and his staff.
Yes it's illegal.
No you can't prove it.
Yes I talked to a lawyer.
Yes I followed his advice to walk away (he gave compelling reasons, and there was *lots* more to my case than just this).
Yes I too
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And that's where the government takes issue. Workers of equal skill should get paid roughly the same wages. It's why the government has such arcane employment ranks - your current rank is based on your skill, a
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Uh, can I apply now? (Score:2)
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No, it means you're Shrodinger's Minority just like I am. In every day ending in "y" you pick up the magical hate dice and wait to find out if you're an oppressed minority, or a majority that needs to be discriminated against.
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No, it means you'll get paid more, but spend the difference on anime pillows and Pocky.
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> No, it means you'll get paid more, but spend the difference on anime pillows and Pocky.
I hope that was intended as a joke, but that stereotype was pretty crass.
Re:Uh, can I apply now? (Score:4, Informative)
[did I fit in all the alt-right cliches? if I missed any, let me know and I'll try again.]
Only in showing that like most people in the left who subscribe to the PCness, claims of anti-hate speech, bigotry and so on. That you're perfectly fine in using it against anyone who doesn't follow your ideology.
Haven't quite figured it out yet have you?
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You seem to believe that this election will unleash new bigotry. You might even be right, with respect to people like the 4 who kidnapped the disabled man in Chicago.
But that aside, your side lost not because people suddenly love bigotry, but because the Left lacks any awareness of how bigoted it has become.
Monday (Score:2)
Bogus priorities (Score:4, Insightful)
That's bullshit. It ought to value their software's reliability and performance instead. Nothing else.
If that means, hiring more (or less) Asians/Blacks/Whites/Purples — so be it.
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A bit Machiavellian, isn't it? Anything is fine as long as the software turns out good.
In any case, the law is pretty clear that there are other considerations.
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Citation needed.
Please, cite the law, that requires companies to hire based on any sorts of quotas.
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There are no quotas, that's just crazy talk. I've told you many times that there are no quotas, and they are not desirable. Try to keep up.
I was referring to anti-discrimination laws. Yes, it might cost you a little more to employ someone who needs some aids to do their job, but you can't use that as a reason to favour another candidate. It might affect your software if you employ a woman of child baring age and she decided to have one, but you can't use that as a reason to favour another candidate.
How do y
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I ask you once again for a citation... Which law is it, which specifically makes it illegal for White men to be paid more?
Anti-discrimination laws make it illegal for race to be a consideration, when making hiring or compensation decisions. As long as you don't do that, your Whites may still end up paid better. Yes, some Social Justice busy-bodies would take such statistics and claim them to be evidence of racism. They do make a lot of noise, and the current boss
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Asians/Blacks/Whites/Purples
That's racist!!! [slate.com]
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That's bullshit. It ought to value their software's reliability and performance instead. Nothing else.
Oracle values their bottom line and their shareholders, nothing more nothing less. Often being a good corporate citizen is part of this priority. You can't shit on everyone endlessly and get endless growth as a result of that. Not in the west anyway.
Are they counting personnel on H1B visas? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm sorry, but changing (or choosing to enforce) the current rules does not magically level the playing field. If it did, minorities would long ago have stopped complaining that the system is rigged against them. Then again, the situation I've just described does leave itself open to manipulation by the "good ol' boy's club".
I'd be more interested in knowing if job tenure was considered in analyzing the pay differential that the DOL alleges they've discovered.
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You can't have it both ways. The industry can't be ageist and heavily biased against older people while at the same time having wage structures based on decades old biases.
Re: Are they counting personnel on H1B visas? (Score:2)
would be more credible (Score:4, Insightful)
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It says right in the summary that the investigation has been going on for years already. And the timing makes little difference here, and if Trump gets involved it would be a scandal for many reasons unrelated to race.
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It says right in the summary that the investigation has been going on for years already. And the timing makes little difference here, and if Trump gets involved it would be a scandal for many reasons unrelated to race.
Well, by all means, then they must be appalled (appalled!) that there is gambling... I mean DISCRIMINATION going on there. Clearly, they had enough evidence create a sham, but not enough to charge, and they had it a while ago and just decided to deploy it at the very moment when it would be most politically damaging to the incoming administration.
Service industry (Score:2)
Can we get some attention on Shesha Lounge, a local hookah bar here in Wichita which forces its staff to clock out before they begin closing/cleaning the store and then requires them to stay for a mandatory and unpaid staff meeting that sometimes goes on for hours? In general, I've seen that illegal labor practices abound in the service industry, it's almost expected.
By Asians does that include Indians? (Score:2)
Asian parent wants to know (Score:2)
Why did you eat honey that was made by B's? B is inferior, next time get honey from a hive of A's.
Lets hear it (Score:2)
When a similar case was brought against google a while ago, a bunch of people here defended the company and their refusal to hand over compensation data - so let's hear it, will you defend the prime evil of tech as well ? Will you felate Ellison like you slobbered on Schmidt ? Or is refusing to cooperate into an investigation of your own compliance with the law only heroic when google does it ?
Interesting timing. (Score:2)
I'm not always on Oracle's side but... (Score:2)
in this case I am. These sorts of "show us your labor stats" demands are nothing more than shakedowns from the PC crowd. We already have plenty of reverse discrimination laws in place - none of which give any weight to merit when it comes to job placement decisions. These laws are purely based on quotas but the backers of these laws will never use the term "quota".
In many cases, a woman or a minority IS the best candidate for the job. But that suitability should be based SOLELY on merit.
If a woman shows up
Re:Schitzophrenic Labor Dept. (Score:5, Informative)
There's no contradiction in the two statements. The few white males they do hire are being given higher pay, but the majority of the jobs are going to lower-paid Asian workers.
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You must have the luxury of not being an Oracle customer.
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I would bet my last dollar that quite of few of those 'Asians' (so why is it Asians versus 'white people' rather than Europeans). are paid quite a lot more than they seem to be. So where is that extra money coming from, why from those foreign agencies who hire and train them, just before they apply for the job working on US computer infrastructure. I'll bet there are so many secret features buried so deep they will never be able to find them all, US corporate greed serving the US as always, as cheaply as po
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Slashdot should fully support this, but as usual accusations of racism triggered most of the posters and mods. This angle is probably the best way you can fight back against H1B abuse, but the programmed Pavlovian response is hard to overcome.
Or perhaps most of us would rather problems with H1B abuse be solved directly rather than through underhanded identity politics. That way madness lies.
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Or could it be that many slashdotters don't feel two wrongs make a right?
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Those are not mutually exclusive options...
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Make up your mind. Which is it? They are paying more to white males or discriminating against white males by preferring Asian workers?
Oracle has not been complying with requests for information, so the Labor Department is suing them so they can get this information during discovery. They are probably suing them for multiple offenses so they can get a more broad set of information during this process. At least that is my guess based on the information in the article.
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Both!
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Asians are either considered white or not, depending on the narrative they are pushing. Same as beaners.
Lumping all Asians together is silly. The people of Iran and northern India have more in common genetically, linguistically and culturally with Europe than they do with East Asia. Many Indian-Americans will tick "South Asian" if that is an option, but will select "White" if that is the only alternative to "Asian", because that is where they feel they belong
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In the United States, Asian as a racial or ethnic identifier usually means what I grew up calling East Asian. Which covers, among other countries, China and Japan.
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Malaysia isn't in East Asia.
I think most Malaysians would be surprised to hear that. The boundary between "South Asia" and "East Asia" is generally considered to be the Naf River [wikipedia.org], which is Bengali on the west bank and Burmese on the east bank. Malaysia is much further to the east, and some parts of Malaysia are further east than Hong Kong.
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No, white guys do that too. Beaners are the janitors.
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Beaners are the janitors.
So are white guys who go to lunch at Taco Bell and come back to the office.
I did (Score:4, Insightful)
The response is correct: "The complaint is politically motivated, based on false allegations, and wholly without merit."
Merit is the biggest modifier in people's pay, and has been for decades. Equal opportunity has been the law several decades now. More women graduate college than men, and have been superior in terms of years of education for quite some time now. The Gender pay gap has been debunked so often that I honestly question the sanity of people who continue to argue that it exists. US Department of Labor data shows that women make more than men with the same qualifications and work habits, not less.
Simple questions answer the issue easily. If women work for less than men, why does any company run by a man hire a man? I'm really tired of this leftist religion being crammed down everyone's throats. Yes, it has become a religion.
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Nobody has debunked the gender pay gap, they just give more granular descriptions of it.
Eg. "Men get paid X% more on the dollar than women. X = A + B + C + D + E + F + ... + Z. A is explained by the percent of women who pause their careers for 7 years to have babies. B is explained by the pipeline issue where undeniable institutional sexism of the late 70s broke the pipeline meaning that there are fewer qualified 65 year old women in the workforce than 65 year old men. C is some contraindication where w
Re:I did (Score:4, Insightful)
Nobody has debunked the gender pay gap
They debunked the myth that women were getting paid less than men for doing the same job.
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Let's all start going along with the PC/SJW ideology and start with the concept that it is just basically *WRONG* to be a white guy.
If you just start with the correct premise, this all becomes very easy to deal with.....
[rolls eyes].
Re: I did (Score:5, Interesting)
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Tough to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford shoes.
Yet somehow my parents managed it. Clearly they fucked up and didn't blame everybody else for their situation, and instead worked to improve it - and assure that their kids also adopted that attitude.
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Exactly how did your parents manage it? Hard work? Poor people in general seem to work a lot harder than I do. Unusual talent? Luck? There's a difference between a solution that works for some people and a solution that works for most people.
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Ahh, I see you're a fan of the oppression Olympics. Good man.
Let's not forget that every white male alive today is personally responsible for slavery and every rape ever committed. Btw, are Asians white now or not? I missed the last meeting.
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Here's something at the department of labor that directly contradicts what you just said.
https://blog.dol.gov/2013/06/0... [dol.gov]
now i know that the fact that this is on the actualy DoL website is a problem for you, you didn't have it foxsplained to you on oreally or something. i'll wait for you to tell me how they're lying, i'm not actually reading it correctly , blah blah blah.
yeah- so the thing that gets me about you right wing nut jobs is how you so very consistently flat out lie.
and you do it because it works
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A BLOG by a Politically motivated Person != FACTS Collected for analysis by the Department of Labor. It never ceases to amaze me how you left wing nut jobs fail to use facts in any argument and continually prop up opinions biased to your causes as "evidence." In fact you continually deny facts exist and have claimed facts are biased to gender and race.
FACT: MORE WOMEN THAN MEN ARE EARNING DEGREES! Are going to now claim "not enough STEM" indicating that you want to revoke a woman's choice in degree fiel
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do you actually believe all that bs?
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And apparently they think the same thing about Google ?
So er... who do you think they consider tough ? What, do you need to change the company's mission statement "America ! FUCK YEAH!" to be scary enough ?
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>The feminist groups will then argue that women should not be punished for taking time off for raising kids or not being able to work extra hours, etc.
You left out the most important part of the argument: BECAUSE SOCIETY DEMANDS THAT THEY DO.
Hell fixing that benefits MEN to. Suddenly - ME wanting to not work such long hours so I can spend time with MY kid should not be a reason to punish me either.
Why should the rest of us have to be compared to a few workaholic mentally ill morons with no life ? We work
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Having a kid is your choice. Noone is forcing you. Demanding that you get paid the same as someone that works harder and/or longer than you can because you *wanted* to have a child is the very soul of feeling entitled.
You get paid according to what you can deliver, not according to what you want. It's the only way a national economy could ever work.
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Because every other country has active measures in society to combat that pressure from companies. And in the others they are at least partially successful. Not entirely - much of Europe is having the exact same problem as Japan though at an earlier stage and not as severe yet. That's one reason it's ridiculous of Europe not to welcome the refugees with open arms - they desperately need an influx of able-bodied young people to keep their economies working.
The US is earlier on the same road, mostly thanks to
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read the article... idiot!
I did . It doesnt say anything clear. Also using a swear word does not make your point any more valid
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If you stop climbing the greasy pole to [...] go home early to see the kids
Single dad here: *yup*.
Ultimately cost me a good job because blokes are not expected to care for their kids. Had I been a woman needing a flexible schedule no one would have dared to make a fuss.
Re:White Power Rangers...ASSEMBLE! (Score:4, Insightful)
Here we go...
#OnlyBlackLivesMatter!
The Democrat creed: We must promote intersectional bullshit in order to foment racial and ethnic tensions, divide the population into groups all trying to out-victim the other, then use that to stay in power in collusion with banksters. To make sure that works, we must excoriate any member of a victim class who dares to leave the thought plantation.
Re:White Power Rangers...ASSEMBLE! (Score:5, Insightful)
The Republican creed: We must promote intersectional bullshit in order to foment racial and ethnic tensions, divide the population into groups all trying to out-victim the other, then use that to stay in power in collusion with banksters. To make sure that works, we must excoriate any member of a victim class who dares not to vote against their own interests.
FTFY - AKA, The southern strategy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy [wikipedia.org]
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The **Democrat** creed...
Create the KKK
"Founded in 1866, the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) extended into almost every southern state by 1870 and became a vehicle for white southern resistance to the Republican Party’s Reconstruction-era policies aimed at establishing political and economic equality for blacks. Its members waged an underground campaign of intimidation and violence directed at white and black Republican leaders. Though Congress passed legislation designed to curb Klan terrorism, the organization s
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The Republicrat Creed, divide and conquer, who gives a shit about liberty.
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Really? Did you read the dates of that strategy. Do you hold the democrats to how they stood in the 60's and 70s?
And that article is a great example of bias so thanks for linking it so I can point to it on the next wikipedia article.
"Reagan's campaigns used racially coded rhetoric, making attacks on the "welfare state" and leveraging resentment towards affirmative action."
Trying to find secret meanings in words just to support your theory is the epitome of dishonesty. Teh whole article is layered with th
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Trying to find secret meanings in words just to support your theory is the epitome of dishonesty.
The statement you quoted is entirely factual. Republicans have used racial dog whistles ("Willie Horton!"), attacked the welfare state (but not corporate welfare) and leveraged resentment against affirmative action ("political correctness") for decades. The Trump administration will be no different.
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The statement you quoted is entirely factual. Republicans have used racial dog whistles ("Willie Horton!")
And so have Democrats. Heck, the last KKK member that was in the senate was a democrat and the only reason he is out is because he died (Robert Byrd). Some people suck.
The statement about the welfare state is not a racial coded one which is what the quote said.
If you have no concerns assuming people are talking in code, then I am sure you will "successfully" find whatever you want when judging people.
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And so have Democrats.
Got any examples?
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But sure, let's hold up Trump as the absolute peak of racism.
I wrote Trump administration, not Trump himself. His cabinet picks and followers are the peak of racism. As for Trump himself, his outreach to black people from safe white neighborhoods was too funny.
Re:White Power Rangers...ASSEMBLE! (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump's popularity with white males was in no small part because he appealed to their sense of victimhood. Jobs stolen by immigrants, minorities given priority at their expense, constantly accused of being racist and sexist. It's standard alt-right doctrine, and the narrative running through everything of Breitbart which we know is Trump's favourite source of news (being a prolific tweeter has some benefits).
That's the right's creed now. White men are oppressed, so should vote for a white male bigot like Trump who will look out for them. All progressive policies, all attempts to eliminate racism and sexism are just schemes to oppress white people and silence free speech, and the vast SJW army must be defeated by electing someone like Trump who doesn't give a shit about imitating disabled reporters or grabbing women by the genitals. The establishment itself is reverse-racist! Quick, appoint some white supremacists to his staff!
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"A big part of the problem is that race and wealth correlate strongly in the USA"
Wealth and sociopathy go hand in hand more convincingly though. Rich black people tend to be just as nasty as rich white ones and both groups tend to be equal opportunity in their sociopathy.
Re:White Power Rangers...ASSEMBLE! (Score:5, Insightful)
You know that Trump has four, that's right FOUR senior cabinet members who are ex-Goldman Sachs ? Tell me again how republicans don't suck bankster cock.
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fyi you don't have to have an engineering background to be hire for an engineering job...
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Oracle is a meritocracy.
You misspelled "mediocracy".
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