French Man Sentenced To Two Years In Prison For Visiting Pro-ISIS Websites (theverge.com) 414
According to French media, a court in the department of Ardeche on Tuesday sentenced a 32-year-old man in France to two years in prison for repeatedly visiting pro-ISIS websites -- even though there was no indication he planned to stage a terrorist attack. Police raided his house and found the man's browsing history. They also found pro-ISIS images and execution videos on his phone, personal computer, and a USB stick, an ISIS flag wallpaper on his computer, and a computer password that was "13novembrehaha," referencing the Paris terrorist attacks that left 130 people dead. Slashdot reader future guy shares with us an excerpt from The Verge's report: In court, the man argued that he visited the sites out of curiosity. "I wanted to tell the difference between real Islam and the false Islam, now I understand," he said, according to FranceBleu. But the man reportedly admitted to not reading other news sites or international press, and family members told the court that his behavior had recently changed. He became irritated when discussing religion, they said, and began sporting a long beard with harem pants. A representative from the Ardeche court confirmed to The Verge that there was no indication that the man had any plans to launch an attack. In addition to the two-year prison sentence, he will have to pay a 30,000 euros (roughly $32,000) fine.
Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.
—Part I, Chapter I, Nineteen Eighty-Four
Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet another country loses to terrorism and fearmongering. What a shame. I've been to France before, it used to be a nice place.
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Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Informative)
That totally applies in the USA as well.
Please tell us how you'd go about getting off the "no-fly" list, and how people get on it in the first place.
It's either this or Nazis ... pick your poison (Score:5, Interesting)
The natives won't accept a Nice every couple of months.
So either the security services prevent it from happening by any means possible, or the natives will do so through ethnic cleansing.
Re:It's either this or Nazis ... pick your poison (Score:4, Interesting)
Your preferred rule of law created the problem, they have adopted the rule of law necessary to make diversity "work".
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Mass surveillance is already stopping plots left and right. Sacrificing our privacy to that extent worked. It wasn't enough to stop lone wolf lunatics though, so this is the next step.
Nazis will soon be on the receiving end of this treatment too by the way. All freedom must perish, if it's necessary to make diversity "work".
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George Orwell: political cataloger; delusional sophist; useful socialist idiot that has done nothing but create identify politics and 1984 doomsayers.
Just read his essays and realize how long people have been saying OMG it is 1984, since 1984 was published.
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Your two sentences are at odds. He was an intelligent and popular author - in a time where intelligence wasn't just used to sell things - and he produced a warning about how technology and politics could be used to enslave mankind which we've chosen to ignore. I'm not sure you even know what identity politics is.
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Yeah, people like you like to play the 1984 card, but it is getting a bit worn along the edges.
The threat from things like radicalism of various sorts, or from pedophiles (as brought up elsewhere in this thread), is similar to an infectious disease: if left to fester, it spreads amongst the most vulnerable in society, like the young and disenfranchised. So, apart from the question of whether having dangerous thoughts should be considered a crime or not, there is the harm that their presence as a "disease of
This is the future we chose, diversity is tyranny (Score:2)
It's the only way to unite people who don't wish to be united. It's how that great beacon of multiculturalism Singapore does it too.
Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, possessing that shouldn't be illegal either. Making it, committing child abuse, yes, those should be illegal, but just having files on your computer should never be a crime. Murder is illegal, but videos of people getting murdered are perfectly okay.
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Viewing a site that has virtual pedophilia or pictures of woman over 18 doctored to look under age is illegal in some places. I believe GB is one of those...
I totally agree with you, a crime should require some overt action, just a passive browsing or even being openly sympathetic to a cause is hardly grounds for criminal action in my opinion.
Freedom to express your opinion is the corner stone of a free society, but it becoming as rare as chicken lips these days.
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But being saboteur and spy is a crime. ISIS is an actual country that has declared war on France. ISIS just isn't recognized by any other countries and we are trying to completely destroy it.
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ISIS is not an actual country. Isis is the egyptian goddess of motherhood and fertility. IS is a terrorist organization.
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Frankly, possessing that shouldn't be illegal either.
Unless you paid money for it, in which case you need locking up.
Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
Look how well that worked out for drugs.
Locking people up for small amounts of marijuana sure destroyed demand for marijuana oh wait...
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If you read the study (I just did), you will find that the way they measure alcohol consumption disregards a lot of the ways people consume alcohol.
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The statistics your study cites only include state and federal prisons. Not county jails.
In most states, if you are caught with small amounts of marijuana, you would find yourself in a township or county lockup. Then you'd have a trial where you''d plead out for no jail time. So, you end up with an arrest and conviction on your record for yes, having a few joints. So the time locked up may be short, but the legal impact on your life can be great.
In Arizona, it's
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You stupid sack of shit, if the demand for child porn is destroyed, there will be no incentive for child
porn to be made, and thus no children will be victimized by being used to make child porn.
Yeah, that's why prohibition was such a success! Outlawing alcohol destroyed the demand; nobody ran speakeasies, or hauled carloads full of moonshine around...
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You stupid sack of shit, if the demand for child porn is destroyed, there will be no incentive for child porn to be made, and thus no children will be victimized by being used to make child porn.
Yeah, that's why prohibition was such a success! Outlawing alcohol destroyed the demand; nobody ran speakeasies, or hauled carloads full of moonshine around...
People drinking alcohol or taking drugs are primarily hurting themselves. That is not the same thing as consuming child sex abuse material, which is based on harm to other people.
Re: Thoughtcrime (Score:2)
The penalties for child porn go up and up, but the availability increases every day.
Want to know why? For those that want it, it's a need because of a mental illness. So as the danger goes up, the criminals filming it want more money. The clients pay because it's not a choice.
What happens when the profit margin increases on a good with an effectively unlimited supply?
That's right, more get into the business and they make more of it. Your seething hatred doesn't seem to slow them down, sorry.
Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Insightful)
thus no children will be victimized by being used to make child porn.
Banning it makes this problem worse. If child porn was legalized and regulated, it could be made with cgi animation, adult actors posing as children, etc. There is no evidence that viewing child porn causes the consumer to commit more child abuse, and some evidence that it is preventative. In Japan, pedophiles can buy child-sized sex dolls [independent.co.uk], and although data is limited, it appears that this reduces their desire for real children by providing an alternative release.
Our treatment of pedophiles is based on knee-jerk populism, not scientific evidence. We often punish pedophiles just for seeking psychological help. It would be harder to design a dumber system even if we tried. We really should think of the children.
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I assume you have the evidence to back this up? Could you point us to it, please?
I could ask you the very same question. You "rebutted" the GP's unsourced assertions with a bunch of unsourced assertions. Human psychology is *weird*, and obvious, logical things but surely X so Y have an unpleasant habit of not actually being correct.
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So kids won't get rapped or abused if someone else doesn't want to watch? I suppose you think that the main sources child porn are big wealthy businesses other than some sick fucks who are either making money on the side of their hobby or using the materials to barter and expand their collection.
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You're half right. Make no mistake - child-porn production is a massive and extremely well-funded industry. A few years ago there was a tell-all from a programmer who used to work in the industry - he admits outright he did it (despite not sharing the proclivities of the users) because it was the best paying job in the world. And he runs in detail through the technologies they use. The data is stored on servers all across the world - and none of them owned by the syndicate, all compromised servers owned by
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Do you think that most child porn is made for economic reasons? Or is it mostly pedophiles filming themselves and distributing it? Haven't seen it but I highly doubt that it is like normal porn with professional actors etc...
What I'm trying to say here is that IMHO the incentive for making child porn is not economic, and getting rid of it will not stop the sickos.
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The jihadis were supported and armed by Ronald Reagan. Was he a collectivist?
You're using terms you don't understand to explain a history that is just wrong.
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Yeah, Ratzo, the "jihadis" in Afghanistan helped end the cancer that was the USSR. And earlier we made common cause with the USSR and the murdering SOB Stalin against the Nazis.
Ronald Reagan did NOT import hordes of unassimilable savages into the US as fast as he could. Employing a strategy which turns out to have undesirable side effects is NOT the same as doing one's level best to destroy the nation and turn it into a cesspool.
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Ronald Reagan did NOT import hordes of unassimilable savages into the US as fast as he could. Employing a strategy which turns out to have undesirable side effects is NOT the same as doing one's level best to destroy the nation and turn it into a cesspool.
Judging by your post I think that boat has long sailed.
Re:Thoughtcrime (Score:5, Interesting)
1984 was made about a Collectivist (Leftist) dystopia.
That's both an oversimplification and a not uncommon misunderstanding of the text. A misunderstanding which reading the book will occasionally (but apparently not invariably) clear up.
As the text explains via the device of Emanuel Goldstein's inserted Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism --which is left deliberately ambiguous to the reader as to whether it is a genuine text of a genuine dissident or rather a work of the Party describing itself with dark irony --Ingsoc "rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it does so in the name of Socialism" (doublethink)!
1984 should be read in light especially of Orwell's essay The Lion and the Unicorn [wikipedia.org] in which Orwell sketched out what a distinctly English Socialism (as against the prevailing internationalism of the time) ought to look like. 1984 represents the exact opposite, a totalitarian state neither actually Socialist nor English. A state whose sole purpose had become the exercise of power for its own sake. To label it Leftist or Anti-Leftist, or even Fascist is entirely to miss the point of the work. [There is also the implied accusation that the Soviet Union has rejected and vilified every Socialist principle, of course, remember Orwell fought with the Trotsyist POUM in the Spanish Civil War.]
The present situation is however to be distinguished from that describe in Orwell's dystopia on the basis that the sentence has been handed down by a court, duly according to a Law itself duly enacted by the French Parliament. A Leitmotif of 1984 is that Big Brother represents a state entirely unburdened by Law. Orwell is explicit: not only is there no Law in 1984, there is nothing even resembling it, not even a simulacrum of Law such as Stalin's show trials.
That being said, and the real dangers posed by Islamism notwithstanding, it might reasonable be argued that we as a voting public ought to guard ourselves against laws which criminalise mere browsing. While it may be seductive to think that punishing those who frequent obviously nefarious sites such as Islamist or anti-feminist ;p websites, there may come a time when our own browsing habits will not be appreciated by those upon whom we choose to bestow power.
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Having a ISIS flag hung up in room, when ISIS has declared war on France makes you basically a saboteur and spy.
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Orwell is explicit: not only is there no Law in 1984, there is nothing even resembling it, not even a simulacrum of Law
Maybe, just maybe..... the distinguishment between having thoughtcrime and other laws on the book supporting tyranny and kangaroo courts VS no actual law and no courts is not so important a distinction.
Perhaps the no law binding government thing is just a later evolution of where this path takes us.
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Everybody misses the fact (and since it's bloody screamed out on half the pages I can only assume by not actually having read the book) - that the leftist dystopia in 1984 was brought about by, and could not have existed if it had not been preceded by, a capitalist dystopia that was JUST AS EVIL.
Orwell was as anti-capitalist as Marx. He just wasn't a state socialist or communist either. Orwell was an anarcho-socialist, comparable to Noam Chomsky's beliefs.
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no, no it wasn't.
Orwell's target was, as nearly always in his writing, Totalitarianism.
ignorant conservatives always think he was warning against socialism.
he wasn't.
in fact, Orwell was himself a socialist. .
No, his books were about Totalitarianism/Authoritarianism: the Hitlers, the Mussolinis, the Stalins of the world.
The Putins, the Pinochets.
People who held power and used propaganda, coercion, and popular appeal to control their populace.
"We've always been at war with Oceana" isn't such a far cry from "
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Read Joshua 11...
Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if he didn't want to blow things up, this will change his mind quick.
Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Informative)
For two reasons:
1) no valid crime (in my opinion) was committed
2) it's a two year sentence, besides pissing off a bunch of people, what purpose does this serve?
You can't change a person's ideologies by imprisoning them, not without brainwashing them. This seems like the wrong way to address these problems. Imprisoning and fining people for their thoughts and beliefs is likely to cause more people to think this way, rather than deter it.
Re:Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Insightful)
Telling every citizen that Big Brother is watching them, and that if they know what's good for them they'd better be careful to only read from government-approved news sources, and fap to Church-approved pr0n.
And giving Trump/Pompeo/Sessions/Pence a legislative proposal to one-up Theresa May's snooper's charter by this time next year.
Re:Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Interesting)
if he was not a terrorist before, he certainly WILL BE, once they let him out.
nice job, frenchies. smart. real smart.
we have to go back to calling you surrender-monkeys again. sigh...
Re:Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Interesting)
nice job, frenchies. smart. real smart.
The US has thrown people in Gitmo for nothing more than wearing a Casio watch [wikialpha.org].
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My guess would be they know that and they _want_ that effect. Ruling with emergency powers is so much easier than doing it the hard way...
Re:Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't change a person's ideologies by imprisoning them
Yes you can. Just you watch how that man thinks when he gets out in two years.
Re:Well that's terrifying (Score:5, Informative)
1) no valid crime (in my opinion) was committed
1) On what basis do you argue that Article 421-2-5-2 was not duly enacted as a valid law of France?
2) On what basis do you claim your entitlement to an opinion on a matter of French constitutional law?
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To a free man it's not valid, because holding that reading the wrong things is criminal is an evil power trip and violates the first principle of human rights. Prohibition was "duly enacted" in the US, too, but it was a stupid, ill-advised, and evil power trip.
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"The Law" on one side and right and wrong on the other are two very different things. He is referring to right and wrong.
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[T]he answer to 2) is "Free speech".
I'm making a pun on the fact that the word 'opinion' is a term of art at Law: it's another word of a judgment, and that OP was delivering an opinion as to the validity of a law. It was my obtuse way of telling OP that their opinion is hardly pertinent. Had OP simply opined that it should not be, as a matter of principle, be made an offence merely to browse websites, I might not have been inclined to disagree.
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Scary.
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Yes a crime was committed. Having a ISIS flag hung up in room, when ISIS has declared war on France makes you basically a saboteur and spy.
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My guess is that they want more domestic terrorism, as that apparently has served the ruling elite well. Hence they try their best to radicalize people and imprisoning them for thought-crimes is a tried-and-true way to do so.
Disturbing, but practical (Score:5, Insightful)
If you see mosquito larvae infesting a pond, do you kill the larvae or do you wait until they grow into mosquitoes and bite you before swatting them?
If you see a smoldering ember in a tinder-dry forest, do you stamp it out before it destroys homes, or do you wait to see which way the wind blows?
If you see someone falling into mental illness, do you treat them early or do you wait until the illness has gripped them and who knows what happens?
It is a very interesting ethical question that this poses. If the guy's family noticed changes, if the guy admits he wasn't consuming any other media other than pro-jihadist propaganda, and if the guy showed outward signals of becoming fundamentalist, wouldn't you act now rather than wait for him to become a major problem?
Re:Disturbing, but practical (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you think that 2 years jail when no crime has actually been committed is appropriate though?
Sure, target him for treatment, counselling and intervention programs, but the actions taken seem like a really slippery slope to though crime.
European Court of Human Rights (Score:2, Informative)
Does he get to pursue the issue in the ECHR? Because it's hard to imagine any public international law body allowing this to stand.
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Yes being saboteur and spy is a crime. Having a ISIS flag hung up in room, when ISIS has declared war on France you are saboteur and spy.
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Do you think that 2 years jail when no crime has actually been committed is appropriate though?
If no crime has been committed then by definition he wouldn't have been found guilty and jailed by the courts.
What you think about the laws is a different thing entirely and a very important distinction to make.
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Do you think that 2 years jail when no crime has actually been committed is appropriate though?
I agree. He should have been parachuted into ISIS territory. That removes the local threat, gives him what he's idolizing, and a fighting chance. That's pretty fair.
Re:Disturbing, but practical (Score:5, Informative)
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This is a thought-crime, the hallmark of a totalitarian state.
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so everyone should be arrested right now instantly, because at some point we may commit a crime, even if right now this moment we haven't yet.
Re:Disturbing, but practical (Score:5, Insightful)
In my 20s I downloaded a copy of the big book of mischief. I never tried to make anything from the book, probably good I didn't or I might not be here now, however by the logic that convicted this guy I could have faced years in prison... for curiosity.
No matter which way you cut it this is wrong.
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That sounds more practical than throwing him in prison and letting him out before he's been rehabilitated.
But I digress. Prison is never really about rehabilitation, it's mainly about revenge.
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Or do you put it somewhere safe for two years, fanning it with a breeze of rage against perceived injustice, in an environment where there are no moderating influences, and feeding it with plenty of tinder-dry fodder, so that when you finally let it loose, it will be well-behaved and extinguish itself?
True, that point has been overlooked...
So take him out behind the barn and shoot him...
Oh, wait... he is a person...
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Is it good and proper to jail a Juggalo because of their association
If you could be jailed for poor taste, then yes.
Stupid move (Score:5, Insightful)
The smart way of dealing with this is to monitor the suspect.
Now he will have a good time completing his training in prison, where he will be in touch with real specialists
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Monitoring would need a 9 person team in shifts per interesting person, all that funding is now lost to signals intelligence contractors.
With millions of very interesting people now wondering around thats a lot of vetted police teams staff to work shifts.
Most of the EU does not have overtime for that or totally lacks the needed undercover skill sets
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En fond d'écran sur son ordinateur, Brahim a installé le drapeau de Daesh. Le code de son ordinateur "13novembrehaha". Le président s'étonne. Et puis il y a donc la consultation des sites djihadistes. Dernier téléchargement le 16 Novembre. Il y a enfin les témoignages de sa famille qui explique que Brahim était devenu très irritable lorsque l'on parlait de religion. Il s'est laissé poussé la barbe et portait des sarouels.
"The wallpaper on his computer is an ISIS flag. The password is 'November 13 LOL'. (...) His family said he becomes very irritated when talking about religion. He grew a beard and wears sarouel pants."
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It sounds like his own family wanted some sort of intervention. While we can debate whether sending a would-be Jihadi to jail before they've even begun planning an attack seems very anti-civil liberties to me, the impression I get is that French authorities weren't the only people concerned about this character.
And it's not like other countries haven't played the same game. The McCarthy witch hunts were largely predicated on the notion that to be a member of a particular movement automatically made you a tr
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It sounds like his own family wanted some sort of intervention.
As usual, involving law enforcement is the wrong call. If you call the cops on a family member for any reason other than an immediate threat to another person, you're doing them a disservice — in pretty much any country. A person having any other sort of crisis would be better served talking to a professional.
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None of those things cause harm to anyone, and you have adduced no evidence that he advocates or assists the carrying out of harm.
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Do you have any idea how much surveillance teams cost?
Furthermore, jailing someone can be very cheap in countries that do not have the US's hangups about slavery. In the bad old days, Bulgaria made its prisoners work, paid them a full salary, then charged them for room, board and guard salaries. The plant in which my father worked had a production hall staffed 90% with low security prisoners. Some were being released with sizable savings... others ended up in higher security prisons - the last of these
Slashdotter jailed (Score:2, Interesting)
Nerd jailed for reading about person who read about someone who heard that someone read about ISIS.
Harem Pants? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, it's a good thing he was stopped before he could release a low-grade hip-hop album...
I peruse iffy websites all the time (Score:2)
So now curiosity can put me in jail? Really?
Re:I peruse iffy websites all the time (Score:4, Informative)
The law specifically requires "habitual" viewing, so theoretically you wouldn't be charged unless you visited regularly over a period of time. Also, probably more relevantly, not unless you're living in France.
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So do you think that if I spend time learning about Nazism, or Communism, or jihadism, or ... christianity perhaps ... including getting input from their proponents and practitioners, that should make me a criminal? I hereby issue a "fuck you" to those trying to make it so.
Re:I peruse iffy websites all the time (Score:5, Funny)
I think the problem was the harem pants. They offended the French sense of fashion. If he had just gone with the beard and maybe a man-bun, he'd have been on the cover of French Vogue.
I imagine some wannabe jihadi in MC Hammer pants singing "Can't Touch This" in arabic. Don't look at me like that. It's how I deal with the world.
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I imagine some wannabe jihadi in MC Hammer pants singing "Can't Touch This" in arabic. Don't look at me like that. It's how I deal with the world.
Here Comes the IED, U Can't Disarm This, Have You Seen Her? (Subtitled, force her to wear her veil...)
Random observation (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago I went through TSA with my laptop. Naturally they wanted to search it. No problem. I thought.
I'd forgotten that at the time, my documents directory auto synced whenever I logged into my network at home. At the time, I was writing a fiction story.
All kinds of excitement occurred.
Now I keep all my stuff in the cloud outside of "five eyes" treaty partners and any time I think I might have an "interaction" with LEO, I mercine wipe my drive and install fresh. I still get harassed because obviously I "must be a terrorist" because I don't use windows. Solution; Small windows boot partition by default and some random porn files. (If they don't find anything, they just keep looking. So I give them a little something obvious to keep them off my back.)
When did we start being more afraid of our own government than of terrorist? The world has gone crazy except for you and me, I'm slowly slipping away and I was never too sure about you.
Re:Random observation (Score:4, Insightful)
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I still get harassed because obviously I "must be a terrorist" because I don't use windows.
I tried to carry a Mac laptop through Customs once and they gave me an hour long anal probe.
Next trip I took two!
*rimshot*
Holocaust denial (Score:2)
I see this as similar to laws against holocaust denial, which incidentally is also illegal in France. This ISIS fan was actively demonstrating sympathy for ISIS terrorism (his defense is laughable, the password and wallpaper and behavior changes aren't mere curiosity), just as holocaust deniers are typically taken to be demonstrating sympathy for Nazi terrorism. I don't approve of either law as restrictions on freedom of thought and speech, but I don't think this is a slippery slope, because it's nothing f
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This is way beyond holocaust denial - which actually requires denying the holocaust, not just visiting websites talking about it.
What's laughable is the size of the stones being thrown from within the glass house. The United States and it's allies are the worst terrorist nations on the planet - should we lock people up for reading terrorism-supporting news outlets like the NYTimes or the Washington Post?
The fact that it doesn't have a picture or name (Score:2)
Well, that was retarded (Score:3)
If he wasn't radicalized before, when he gets out of prison, he surely will be. Mission accomplished, idiots.
Balanced (Score:2)
Plus laws pertaining to State Security are a bit sharper there and less encumbered by checks and balances. http://www.theverge.com/2016/2... [theverge.com]
From the desciription It sounds as if the French authorities were careful to collect evidence that might allow one of their judges to decide whether the suspect was merely curious o
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More likely he sees his views validated and then has a clearly defined enemy. But French politics would likely welcome more domestic terror and the population is too dumb to see what those in power are doing.
I didn't follow you logic... (Score:2)
Islam is NOT founded on what we would call 'ethical good' but instead is based on the supremacy of Allah over all others. So mass rape and murder is considered 'good' because Allah clearly commands Muslims do these to the hated kaffir unbelievers (non-Muslims).
I also didn't follow where you were going with bringing up Abrogation, except maybe you were trying to make a point that there aren't any verses that contradict the command to spread Islam and subjugate the world to the rule of Sharia.
Parables, yes. God said he would not destroy Sodom (Score:2)
> That said there's considerable evidence that the stories in the Bible and Koran are meant as parables and not to be taken literally.
Of course, starting with the fact that the text explicitly says so. Jesus said very few would understand his stories, though many more would THINK they understood. Some old testament is an interleaving of actual oral history as understood at the time with parable-like lessons of wisdom. You mention Sodom, which was destroyed by a "rain of fire". Archeological evidence
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For the record, Christianity has an equally terrifying concept: That God punishes the faithful for the sins of the unfaithful, thus making the sinner an existent threat to the Christian (and indeed, him/herself and all mankind).
I don't mean to sound all churchy, but one of the most important principles of Christianity is that Jesus died to pay for all sins, and that his sacrifice can provide salvation to all who request it. Some Christians even believe that non-Christians can receive that salvation implicitly (so-called baptism of desire.)
Also, at the risk of going true-Scotsman, Christians aren't supposed to consider themselves to be better than anyone else when it comes to sin.
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I don't really have a position on this debate, but this is patently false:
"For the record, Christianity has an equally terrifying concept: That God punishes the faithful for the sins of the unfaithful, thus making the sinner an existent threat to the Christian (and indeed, him/herself and all mankind). We see this in Sodom & Gomorrah and the Floods."
I'm not a Christian nor a Muslim, but there is no way that God punishing sinners is as terrifying a concept as men believing they are commanded by God to pu
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Islam will only be defeated when the World understands that it is FICTION and is FALSE
... which is something that will happen right after the World understands the same about Christianity, or Hinduism, or (pick your religion here).
Which is to say, never. Religion doesn't work that way. You can't reason people out of beliefs they never reasoned their way into.
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Once you understand the Islamic Doctrine of Abrogation (later verses replace earlier verses of the Koran) then you will see that Koran 9:29 is the only verse that really matters to non-Muslims. It commands that Islam take over the World until everyone has submitted to the rule of Sharia and the supremacy of Islam.
Islam is NOT founded on what we would call 'ethical good' but instead is based on the supremacy of Allah over all others. So mass rape and murder is considered 'good' because Allah clearly commands Muslims do these to the hated kaffir unbelievers (non-Muslims).
All of the Abrahamic religions are rife with this same bullshit. You can pull up chapter and verses about how swell it is to kill "infidels" in Christian texts all day long.
A core principal of all religion is spreading their seed and wouldn't you know it people are still as gullible today as they were back then.
Islam will only be defeated when the World understands that it is FICTION and is FALSE.
What makes you think anyone cares about reality to begin with?
and Eve fucked her son in Christian Bible. WYP? (Score:3)
Oh, I do understand. I understand you're as full of it as someone saying Christians believe in rape victims being forced to marry their rapists, [youtube.com] "because the Bible says so".
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Once you understand the Islamic Doctrine of Abrogation (later verses replace earlier verses of the Koran) then you will see that Koran 9:29 is the only verse that really matters to non-Muslims.
This is like a buddhist telling you what the bible says you think, because he studied one too.
It is like buddhist telling you what the bible says you think, because he studied one too and there are hundreds of thousands of Christians saying and acting on the same interpretation. Yes you might think that Mary Madeline was Jesus's wife ... or that Islam is the religion of peace ... but this goes against mainstream thinking and interpretation.