Edward Snowden Loses Norway Safe Passage Case (bbc.com) 73
An anonymous reader quotes a report from BBC: Edward Snowden's bid to guarantee that he would not be extradited to the U.S. if he visited Norway has been rejected by the Norwegian supreme court. The former spy contractor filed the lawsuit in April, attempting to secure safe passage to Norway to pick up a free speech award. It had already been rejected by Oslo District court and an appeals court. Mr Snowden's lawyers have previously said if he were extradited to the U.S., it would be "a foregone conclusion" that he would be convicted and jailed. Mr Snowden has been living in Russia, out of reach of the U.S. authorities, since the leaks in 2013. He had hoped to travel to Oslo to receive the Ossietzky Prize, for "outstanding efforts for freedom of expression." The award was due to be presented earlier this month. But the Norwegian Supreme Court said it could not rule on the legality of any move to extradite Mr Snowden as the U.S. had so far made no such request.
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I didn't realize the courts were private companies in Norway.
Re: Well duh! (Score:5, Informative)
It's a common view among European countries that the government is the current administration, and that the legislature and courts are separate entities.
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I guess there's more than two options
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They are not, but at the same time, they can not disregard the law. Sadly the current law in Norway is that he gets extradited unless he risks capital punishment. Most countries are the same, and I doubt the government can overrule that.
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Extradition isn't that simple. There's a lot of constraints to extradition cases - for example, dual criminality (what the person is charged with has to be a crime in both countries).
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Sadly the current law in Norway is that he gets extradited unless he risks capital punishment. Most countries are the same,
There are a whole bunch of conditions for extradition. It has to be a serious offence in both countries.
In Australia we have a bunch of objections that the court might be asked to rule on, including "a person’s extradition is sought for a political or military offence".
But of course the Australian gov't would turn him right over. We've had innocent Australian citizens sitting in Guantanamo for years without help.
Mamdouh Habib was finally released without charge, and David Hicks was tortured and offe
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Some people still consider old-fashioned concepts of moral principles to be sometimes more important than diplomatic pragmatism.
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And pray tell, why should a responsible government jeopardize important political and economical ties and agreements over some dipshit?
I spose it depends on how you define responsible. Some folks think it's okay to torture people if they are dipshits; other countries (which also call themselves responsible) think each person has inalienable rights.
And this is over and above the complete uselessness of torture to actually gain information. A scientific government/military would use techniques that work. That approach seems to fit the definition of "responsible govenment" imo. Your mileage apparently varies.
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Technically, he does face capital punishment. Treason in times of war are considered hanging offences, and I believe there was a war going on when he committed his treason.
Re:Well duh! (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know the procedure in Norway, but I assume it's similar to the Swedish one.
1) A request for extradition is received.
2) The court takes up the case.
3) In the proceedings, a (nonbinding) opinion from the government is sought.
4) The court rules, on their own about the case.
5) If the court blocks the extradition, the person may not be extradited.
6) If the court approves the extradition, the government may still block the extradition.
7) If both the court and government approve, then the person must be extradited.
The courts cannot rule on a request that they have not received, and the government is not allowed to usurp the courts by making pledges on a case that the court hasn't yet ruled on.
Snowden really should get used to the fact that he's not going anywhere until his case gets resolved.
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Snowden really should get used to the fact that he's not going anywhere until his case gets resolved.
Which will happen only when he dies or when the US elects some kind of civil libertarian who will grant him a pardon.
come get your free prize (Score:2, Insightful)
Ossietzky Prize, for "outstanding efforts for freedom of expression."
It is nice to see Norway honor free speech and protection of citizens from abusive government spying with this great prize and a free trip to the United States (or maybe just Guantanamo Bay).
Re:Snowden (Score:4, Insightful)
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If he hasn't made it to court yet, he would be staying in jail, not prison.
Prison is where people who have been convicted of a crime go.
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Indictment ? For case like this... you go straight to jail...no possibility of fighting in court.
That is COMPLETELY incorrect. He gets his day in court.
Of course it's a secret court. The kind of court which if run by Saddam or Putin or China would be called illegal but since it is managed by true patriots such as Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama/Trump, then it's okay since we're all Americans.
In the secret court, there are (slightly) different rules:
1. anything you say that cannot be used against you is declared irrelevant.
2. the jurors are not allowed to discuss the case with anybody, including ea
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Yes.
http://apps.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
Border Dancing (Score:1)
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Probably under seal (Score:5, Informative)
the Norwegian Supreme Court said it could not rule on the legality of any move to extradite Mr Snowden as the U.S. had so far made no such request.
I would speculate the request order has already been made and approved under seal that prevents the courts even learning that it exists, unless the order becomes effective, which only happens if Snowden comes into the country for the cheese (the prize) and springs the trap designed to catch him.
Naturally, since it's not effective, it hasn't been unwrapped, thus there is no way to challenge it.
Also, i'm sure the order would activate and be executed so swiftly that by the time a challenge were even initiated, Snowden would already be in the US standing before the grand jury.
Re:Probably under seal (Score:5, Interesting)
He could probably avoid this issue if he became a Russian citizen. That would give Russia an excuse to flaunt their authority at the rest of the world by granting him passage to Norway. If the US attempted to extradite him, Russia would have every reason to flex their muscles to defend one of their own.
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Of course, even if the Russians could do this, there may be no good reas
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Common misconception. You cannot just declare someone to be a diplomat in a foreign country - the foreign country has to approve your request for diplomatic credentials.
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They could make him a member of an existing Russian ambassador to Norway's technical/administrative staff, however, so he doesn't need his own personal diplomatic accreditation.
Under the Vienna convention, the administrative staff members of a diplomat also have some immunity from being detained.
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the foreign country has to approve your request for diplomatic credentials.
Well, I think that is precisely what I said in my comment "Clearly, countries could still refuse to allow him..". Apologies if I wasn't clear enough.
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No. One only becomes an "accredited diplomat" when the host country accepts him, generally entail an equal number on each side and are not lightly changed so unless anywhere Snowden accepts him as a diplomat with immunity, it gives him nothing.
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what type of war sparky?
The US has spent a lot of time smashing up Russian military gear in the past few decades. There is likely nothing that that can surprise us with in the field in a conventional war.
A full-on MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) nuclear exchange probably leaves no real winners... IF Russian has been spending the money maintaining their systems instead of stashing it all in off-shore accounts.
Re: Probably under seal (Score:1)
Bring it. You'll do more damage to the USA than they will do to you, but only because they have the excess capacity to roll you repeatedly. They might not all get to buy a new iPhone that year, but the US can crush any three armies in an all out non nuclear war and can strike first and last in a nuclear one. That might let those of US in the southern hemisphere be on top for a while. Even if the hill gets smaller and the cancer rates go way up for a generation or two.
Re:Probably under seal (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe Putin will have Steven Seagal escort Snowden
Or for fucks sake, I am living in a propaganda cartoon drawn in crayola
Re:Probably under seal (Score:4, Interesting)
He could probably avoid this issue if he became a Russian citizen
Probably not. As most countries (the US included) Norway does not (typically) extradite its own citizens to a foreign country, however it is bound to extradite to countries who (lawfully) request it irrespective of the nationality of the individual if the individual is not a Norwegian citizen. This is generally the practice all over the world. The Norwegian Supreme Court has just ruled that a wanted Iraqi terrorist who lives in Norway can be extradited to face charges in Italy. He can however not be extradited to Iraq since that government is unwilling to guarantee the terrorist will not be executed.
As HuskyDog points out below, if he gets a Russian Diplomatic Passport, the Norwegian government can't go near him. On the other hand, issuing a diplomatic passport to Snowden might be too pricey even for Putin.
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No. You only get diplomatic immunity after the host country accepts your credentials and the number of diplomats is strictly limited by each country having an equal number. Unless the host country accepts Snowden's "russian" credentials and russia pulls out a diplomat Snowden doesn't to wave a magic passport and get immunity.
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Yeah but it allows the Russians to probe the Norwegian intent towards Snowden. Norway can refuse to accept him, or accept him in a non-extraditable form. Either way Snowden is safe.
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Nope. The only countries that would accept Snowden as a "Russian" diplomat are Russian client states. Because I'm sure Snowden would find Minsk so much more agreeable than Moscow...
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He could probably avoid this issue if he became a Russian citizen.
That would compromise his credibility among those who consider themselves American patriots, but are also in favor of transparency, and who are also anti-Russia. I suspect that this is actually a significantly sizable group.
If the US attempted to extradite him, Russia would have every reason to flex their muscles to defend one of their own.
They'd also have to make him a diplomat for that to make sense, which would seem a bit strange.
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At this point, his sole priority needs to be to keep himself safe, so if he can get a Russian citizenship, might as well. Also, why exactly does he need to travel to Norway? Are his movements in Russia restricted?
If Trump and Putin did get along, there is little reason for Moscow to keep him: he has only a finite knowledge of what goes on, and by now, they would have milked him for all he was worth. I'm not sure whether the Kremlin considers itself morally obligated to shelter him once their use for hi
Doesn't work like that (Score:3)
If you actually study dual citizenship, or if you are a dual citizen (I am) you find out that both nations warn you that they can't do much to protect you from claims of the other nation. You are subject to the authority of both countries, you don't get to pick and choose which as it suits you.
In particular Snowden's case would be pretty cut and dried with any government the US has an extradition treaty with: He broke US law, while a US citizen, and while he was physically in the US. What's more, he did so
Re:Probably under seal (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, i'm sure the order would activate and be executed so swiftly that by the time a challenge were even initiated, Snowden would already be in the US standing before a firing squad.
FTFY
I doubt that the US government would allow any sort of public trial, especially not one that had a jury. Snowden publicly outed illegal & unconstitutional actions by the government against it's own citizens. They will kill him if they ever get the opportunity.
In their eyes they cannot afford to NOT kill him as that might embolden other whistle-blowers to out other illegal & unconstitutional actions of the government. They feel it is imperative to make an example of Snowden. I'm actually surprised that they haven't had him killed yet despite Russian security and/or any international repercussions resulting from assassinating someone under Russian protection.
The US is only a representative republic in outward appearance. It is actually an authoritarian oligarchical tyranny and will kill or destroy anyone or anything that gets in their way.
Trump is nothing, he's just the latest clown to fill the shoes of the current scapegoat and be a distraction.
Remember the HHGTTG entry on the President of the Galaxy;
"The President is very much a figurehead - he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it."
Strat
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That the US government committed potentially criminal or unconstitutional acts doesn't somehow mean Snowden wouldn't be convicted. And since he hasn't appeared to have held much back, what is it exactly that he could reveal now that isn't already known?
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That the US government committed potentially criminal or unconstitutional acts doesn't somehow mean Snowden wouldn't be convicted.
And that's a problem. Revealing blatant illegal and unconstitutional acts should be an absolute defense and actions taken to accomplish it not prosecutable.
And since he hasn't appeared to have held much back, what is it exactly that he could reveal now that isn't already known?
It's not that he would reveal anything more, it's that the government would not want the optics of the railroading job they'd do to Snowden in any kangaroo-court they frog-marched him in front of. It would also serve as a warning to other potential whistle-blowers that, no matter what, you'll never get a chance at a fair trial and you'll never win.
Strat
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It is astonishing to me that America seems to be slipping down this road. But it is, in Europe, and I hate to say this, but even in Africa, we see America as going backwards.
You see it that way because that's the reality. Please help Americans who are trying to rein-in US government power by doing all you can to apply pressure to the US to alter course, even if it's only writing letters and emails and posting to social media, and to encourage your own government to help. Of course, economic pressure gets the most results so if you are a foreign business trading with the US do what you can to make them feel the pressure. Please understand, the American people for the most part d
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That the US government committed potentially criminal or unconstitutional acts doesn't somehow mean Snowden wouldn't be convicted.
Unless Snowden can prove those criminal or unconstitutional acts committed were life and death violence which Snowden's actions prevented, or committed directly against Snowden himself, then Snowden would probably lack legal standing to even challenge those acts, because of the way the US courts work; only the person who suffers direct damage resulting from the illegal act ca
Re:Probably under seal (Score:4, Informative)
A few points:
1) The "Ossietzky Prize" is awarded by an old organization of "Poets, Editors and Novelists" that have been fighting for freedom of speech for ages. There's not reason to believe that they're not genuine in their support of Snowden and the government could no more stop that than prevent employers naming the employee of the month. I doubt they're trying to trap Snowden and I doubt the legal system is trying to be intentionally obtuse, but when asked to preemptively rule on a hypothetical of what would happen when Snowden were to come to Norway and the US were to file an extradition request that's unreasonable. To say "No matter what charges and evidence the US has, we won't extradite" would be a far more political ruling than "No request has been made so we can't evaluate the merits until it's presented to us".
2) You have no idea how much the Norwegian legal system protects suspects and criminals, for example you could read the case of Mullah Krekar [wikipedia.org]. Brief TL;DR summary: Leader of Islamic organization linked to terror, permanent expulsion order, declared a danger to national security, convicted to five years in prison for death threats but won't be expelled to Iraq where he's likely looking at a death sentence. Why? Because we don't extradite to any country where they might risk a death sentence. Looks like we might finally get rid of him now though since Italy wants him on terrorism charges and they don't have the death penalty. Another case is Anders Behring Breivik, the mass murderer who killed 77 people but the court ruled against the prison that his rights had been violated because the security regime had been insufficiently documented as necessary.
That said, Snowden's actions does seem to violate a lot of US law as written no matter his motivation. So as long as they pinky promise to avoid capital punishment and they dot the i's and cross the t's doing everything by the book, I also strongly doubt the court would say "but that aside it looks like you did it for all the right reasons, request denied". That would typically be for the legal system where he's being trialed to decide if the sentence should be reduced or commuted because of mitigating circumstances. Nor are they likely to shit list a modern western democracy by saying they don't think the US will give a fair trial, we don't even say that about dubious third world countries. He's been granted asylum by Russia because there Putin can simply decide, here we don't have any such authoritarian leaders that is likely to politically overrule the normal process. So while I don't think there's any malice involved, it might be best he stayed there.
When's statute of limitations? (Score:2)
Mr Snowden's lawyers have previously said if he were extradited to the U.S., it would be "a foregone conclusion" that he would be convicted and jailed.
Lawyer says this because Snowden's foregone guilty?
Need another lawyer.
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Mr Snowden's lawyers have previously said if he were extradited to the U.S., it would be "a foregone conclusion" that he would be convicted and jailed.
Lawyer says this because Snowden's foregone guilty
AGENT ROGERSZ: "Good evening Otto. This is agent Rogers. I'm going to ask you a few questions. And since time is short and you may lie, I'm going to have to torture you. But I want you to know it isn't personal."
OTTO: "Look Ah this isn't really necessary. I'll tell you anything you want to know."
AGENT ROGERSZ: "Good! Where is the Malibu?"
OTTO: "I don't know. Somebody ripped it from the yard."
[Otto is hit with electric shock and screams.]
LEILA: "I don't think he knows."
AGENT ROGERSZ:
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The problem, as I understand it, is that the espionage laws - the ones that apply to the crime Snowden is accused of - specifically and deliberately _do not allow an exculpatory defence_.
Basically: You admit you drove over your neighbour in your truck? Sorry, you're going to jail - oh, he was about to shoot your cousin? Well, okay, that's a valid defence, we'll let a jury decide whether you went too far.
Snowden: You admit you told the public that the US spy agency that hired you was violating the constituti
We owe him a debt (Score:3, Insightful)
Can we all agree that this man should be pardoned? (Score:3, Insightful)
He gave up his way of life to inform the people of the dramatic changes that have been serving to erode the very idea of what American life is supposed to be. He gave up his life to inform us that we have ONE last chance to get our system under control. Can't we all just agree that this man doesn't deserve to be in exile just because he could find no other legal means to warn us of the kind of surveillance that we all live under now? Many of us already knew because we knew of contractors that informed us of the tasks that they had been given. Many of them rationalized it as a necessary evil to ensure the nations security, but I think the public is starting to see that the news media, congress, and 3-letter organisations have been ratcheted up so much since 2001, 9/11, that the overreach is now far beyond anyone's control. If we don't come together and fight this thing, we are just going see our liberties erode until something even more horrible happens. Can't you feel it? It is coming.
Oh nevermind, just keep texting and facebook posting. I'm just an old cook who tends to like the forefathers idea of freedom.
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I'm just an old cook who tends to like the forefathers idea of freedom.
I agree their freedom was good, but slightly undone! Mmm, tasty freedom.
Power Trumps law (Score:1)
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