Snowden Can Be Asked To Testify In Person In Germany NSA Probe (arstechnica.com) 72
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Whistleblower Edward Snowden can be asked to give evidence in person by a German committee probing the NSA's spying activities, the country's Federal Court of Justice has ruled. Germany's government has been told that it should make suitable arrangements for that to happen. It has been refusing to invite Snowden to give evidence personally since it would need to guarantee that he would not be handed over to the U.S. -- a promise the German authorities say would risk damaging the political relations between the two countries. Instead, it has called for him to give evidence via a video link, or for German officials to interview him in Moscow, both of which Snowden turned down. Following a formal complaint by the greens and left-wing politicians, Germany's Federal Court of Justice has ruled that the German government must provide the necessary guarantees that would allow Snowden to give evidence in person, or explain why it will not do so. Snowden's lawyer, Wolfgang Kaleck, told the Suddeutsche Zeitung that the German government might refuse to provide guarantees, and officially admit that it regards cooperating with the U.S. on intelligence matters in the future as more important than getting to the bottom of past surveillance. In that case, an appeal could be made to Germany's constitutional court, according to an article in Der Spiegel, which would decide whether the German government was allowed to make that trade-off. The committee of inquiry is examining to what extent German citizens and politicians were spied on by the NSA and its so-called Five Eyes partners -- notably GCHQ -- and whether German politicians and intelligence agencies knew about this activity.
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Trump owes Deutsche Bank $300 million dollars; conflict of interest anyone?
If Trump owes Deutsche Bank $300, then Trump has a problem. If Trump owes Deutsche Bank $300 million, the bank has a problem.
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I doubt a bank would loan $300 million to Trump (or anyone on the private sector) without a lien on the property in question to cover the $300 million. So Trump owes $300 million, and the bank owes its interest in the lien. So where does Trump have an incentive to help (or attack) DB against the public interest? He still has his $300 million, and the lien will be held by DB, or somebody, no matter what he does.
The knee-jerk reaction here is to draw a parallel with unsecured loans given as disguised bri
Re:Just what we need, a traitor sharing more secre (Score:4, Insightful)
You can doubt Russian/Hong kong intents, but the German story seem to be pretty legitimate and you can't blame them if they want to know how much the NSA spied on them.
Now, if you call Snowden a traitor because it will reveal the truth about the NSA spying activities on their partners for business intelligence, that's your call.
Catch 22 (Score:5, Interesting)
Now what exactly happens to Germany if they change their mind once they have Snowden and hand him over to be executed by the US, hmm, nothing what so ever. A really, really bad idea to trust a pretty corrupt German government at this time. Keep in mind they along with the US had no hesitation in getting the Zaporozhi Cossacks to shell and murder Don Cossacks in the Ukraine just as a political stunt killing thousands, to stir up Russia to promote arms sales, this is not a country to trust, seriously. Possibly trust France, certainly not the UK, nor Sweden, possibly Norway, definitely Iceland, not Finland, possibly Italy, definitely not Croatia (measure of US influence and the subsequent corruption it brings every time, the greater the US influence the greater the corruption in the country, not because of Americans but because of multinational corporate control).
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Positions of power are sought by the corruptible, and already-corrupted.
This is just human nature, and it is universal.
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Now what exactly happens to Germany if they change their mind once they have Snowden and hand him over to be executed by the US, hmm, nothing what so ever.
Snowden ought to get an arrangement negotiated where he can testify Via teleconference from a secured location without physically handing himself over.
There's no reason Snowden should have to risk it, in order to be able to testify.....
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"Instead, it has called for him to give evidence via a video link, or for German officials to interview him in Moscow, both of which Snowden turned down."
You assume there is no rule of law (Score:4, Informative)
Now what exactly happens to Germany if they change their mind once they have Snowden and hand him over to be executed by the US, hmm, nothing what so ever.
Germany can't extradite without guarantees that he won't face execution, not only would it violate German law, it would violate the European Charter of Human Rights. All EU member nations have surrendered sovereignty to the EU in human rights matters. Blatant violations could result in sanctions.
Regardless, what on earth makes you think Germany isn't trustworthy. When they say safe-access they probably mean: enact a law that Snowden can't be extradited or prosecuted on charges related to leaking information. Likely it would effectively grant him asylum in Germany, as any time-limit on such an arrangement wouldn't be safe for Snowden (given that he can't know for sure if he would ever be able to return to Russia).
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Regardless, what on earth makes you think Germany isn't trustworthy.
Maybe he drives a VW.
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he'd be nuts to trust any government other than the one that is hosting him right now, since the US wants him REALLY REALLY BADLY and they (the US) has shown it does not respect any kind of laws. its like a child: it wants and it just knows it wants, all else be damned.
if the US was trustworthy and law-abiding and RESPECTED the rule of law, that would be one thing. but everyone knows this is not the case.
no promise any country could make would be worth a thing. so much is at stake and his life is on the
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Germany can't extradite without guarantees that he won't face execution, not only would it violate German law, it would violate the European Charter of Human Rights. All EU member nations have surrendered sovereignty to the EU in human rights matters. Blatant violations could result in sanctions.
Exactly - and for examples, just look at how UK have spent years trying very hard to throw out known terrorists. The Europeans take the law serious - more so than the US, certainly; we don't have "extraordinary renditions" and a concentration camp in Cuba.
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Yes, however that is execution. That says nothing about throwing him in a hole forever. Canada has similar arrangements (as to many nations that don't agree with capitol punishment or torture). However a lot seems to hinge on the word "knowingly"...
So for example if the US was like "Oh we're just going to charge him with unauthorized access to a system, there isn't any risk of capitol punishment there!" the Germans hand him over for some time in Club Fed, then they end up saying "Oh hey look at all this new
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What's capitol punishment? Do they force you to attend congress sessions? Now that would be cruel!
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Would Germany promise and break the promise, there would be uproar and change in the government. No high class politican in office would ever pull the whole country into gutter just for that.
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It's Germany. Not America. Their democracy works and their people aren't idiots.
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Testify "in person" could mean via video link. The key aspect is that he is available to be questioned in real-time, rather than submitting a written statement.
This is fairly common for vulnerable witnesses who for whatever reason can't be in the court room.
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There are little guarantees. However Snowden has to look at what is in it for him. Right now doing it through a video link or in Russia he gains nothing (perhaps a mild amount of PR) so he understandably turned it down. If however Germany (which is no minor player) make guarantees which impact relations between nations, that is something of value. Is it worth the risk of those guarantees possibly not being honored? That would be for Snowden to decide, though I would argue in the longer term it probably is.
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damaging those relations: probably not so bad... (Score:5, Interesting)
a promise the German authorities say would risk damaging the political relations between the two countries
So as you know where I'm coming from: I'm a US citizen.
Since my own government is clearly going to do everything in its power to get back at Snowden for embarrassing them and pointing out their unconstitutional behavior, I think it's up to Europe to grow a backbone here. It needs to be willing to cause some damage to its political relations with the US. In fact, that may be the only hope for Snowden's safety. If the US buddies up to Russia after the administration change, it's conceivable that the US gets its hands on Snowden in person. The only way for him to remain safe is to have political refuge in a friendly nation, and a European country seems like the best bet there.
That means Europe has to be willing to take the shit that the US will dish out over it. And that should not be too bad, all things considered. The US isn't going to burn its bridges with its allies over this. It'll talk some smack, stomp its boots some, but it will be more bluster than anything.
So, Europeans: please try to pressure your own governments to give ES protection. Push for it. It's his best long term hope. The Russian situation is not going to be stable in the long term, and if he returns back here, he's fucked.
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Germany is no good, too many American spies walking around. I can hide him in Canada. If fact, I'm thinking about opening a rescue centre where people like Snowden, Assange, Kim Dotcom, whoever can stay. Sort of like a dog rescue. I have about 50-60 attack moose currently and a small army of battle beavers to protect the place.
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Beaver monthly magazine ? In my teen years, before the internet, I used to "read" those (and learned many tricks to acquire them while not being legally of age to buy them).
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The attack moose up here are fierce, but the battle beavers are useless: they just keep eating their spears.
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If the US buddies up to Russia after the administration change, it's conceivable that the US gets its hands on Snowden in person.
Yeah, with Trump it's no-longer inconceivable that Ukraine is sold to Russia in exchange for Snowden. Unlikely, but hardly inconceivable.
The US isn't going to burn its bridges with its allies over this. It'll talk some smack, stomp its boots some, but it will be more bluster than anything.
Well, Trump is talking about NATO being of no importance to him. With Russia acting aggressively, you might understand why European nations aren't willing to risk trouble over a single individual.
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but trump and pence are now going to run the show.
all I've heard about those 2 clowns is that they are uber bootlickers and LOVE authority concepts. they won't stand up and stay that the US did wrong. they'll continue to go after him because republicans are the worst kind of bootlicker. they are not ashamed and, in fact, proud of the fact that they think 'authority' is an absolute power and should always be followed, no matter what.
trump is going to play 'he-man' and continue to beat his chest and act li
Trump vs. Clinton Matters Here I Think (Score:3, Insightful)
Myself I think Clinton deserved more flak over the fingerprints and credit card numbers taken from UN diplomats in NY revealed by Wikileaks/Manning (that was cablegate right?). But somehow even after that, I get the impression that the world is more willing to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt there than they are to Trump. For very good reasons of course.
What a stupid headline. (Score:1)
NSA, GCHQ and the role of German staff? (Score:2)
Who tested and passed German communications networks for secure German gov use only to allow the NSA and GCHQ access?
Why was German crypto set at such a low level? If the NSA, GCHQ got in what other nations had the skills to access junk German crypto?
Are German staff happy to help the NSA and GCHQ to access German gov communications over decades or just selecting equipment from a list of allowed junk standards?
NSA surveillance: Merkel's phon
Snowdens ticket out of Russia? (Score:1)
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That's really bold (Score:5, Insightful)
They want him to testify against his own country, in the interest of the German people (and not in the interest of Americans/humanity in general as he previously did), all without giving him political asylum first.
For a country that doesn't have the decency of giving political asylum for someone that is being persecuted for whistle blowing on activities that hurt the whole world to even ask for help would be really bold. But doing so while threatening to give him to a country that is known for human rights abuses, torture and that have a legal system where he can not present a defense for his actions. Impressive.
doubt it will happen (Score:2)
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Russia could do it more easily, since Germany can't extradite someone to a country if they might receive the death penalty.
Damaged Relations (Score:2)
Which of the following is most likely to "damage political relations"?
1. Holding a public investigation into the spying activities of another country
2. Granting temporary immunity to a wanted witness so they can testify in said investigation
It's a trap! (Score:4, Insightful)
There's no compelling reason for his physical presence other than his capture. None.
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There actually is for Snowden, which is why I suspect he turned down the offer to do it remotely or in Russia. He can force the issue diplomatically or the Germans can bugger off.
Though I wonder if there is a bit of a ticking clock. Russia is great when the US was at odds with it and Russia looking for anything they can snub the US with. Once Trump is in power and perhaps heals the Russian relationship, I really wonder if poor Snowden will just be a bargaining chip at that point.
Such a privilege (Score:2)
I don't understand, how the countries see the snowden interview as a privilege for snowden.
Snowden has something to tell them. They should want to know it. So its a privilege for them, if snowden explains it. So when they struggle to allow snwoden to speak and then finally decide, that he may speak ... who says he wants to speak for them? It's some favour for the country, not for snowden. So be thankful instead of so arrogant.