Britain Has Passed the 'Most Extreme Surveillance Law Ever Passed in a Democracy' (zdnet.com) 359
Zack Whittaker, reporting for ZDNet: The UK has just passed a massive expansion in surveillance powers, which critics have called "terrifying" and "dangerous." The new law, dubbed the "snoopers' charter," was introduced by then-home secretary Theresa May in 2012, and took two attempts to get passed into law following breakdowns in the previous coalition government. Four years and a general election later -- May is now prime minister -- the bill was finalized and passed on Wednesday by both parliamentary houses. Civil liberties groups have long criticized the bill, with some arguing that the law will let the UK government "document everything we do online." It's no wonder, because it basically does. The law will force internet providers to record every internet customer's top-level web history in real-time for up to a year, which can be accessed by numerous government departments; force companies to decrypt data on demand -- though the government has never been that clear on exactly how it forces foreign firms to do that that; and even disclose any new security features in products before they launch. Not only that, the law also gives the intelligence agencies the power to hack into computers and devices of citizens (known as equipment interference), although some protected professions -- such as journalists and medical staff -- are layered with marginally better protections. In other words, it's the "most extreme surveillance law ever passed in a democracy," according to Jim Killock, director of the Open Rights Group.
Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
Truly despicable! I understand WHY they're doing it, but it's still wrong.
The only good thing is, at least they're letting you know ahead of time they're violating your privacy. (not that that is much of a prize).
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Truly despicable (Score:4, Informative)
Anyone in the UK should take steps to protect themselves. One of the most effective techniques is to use a VPN service. They are cheap, a basic but good one like Mullvad one can be had for under a fiver. The VPN service encrypts and routes traffic out of the country, preventing your ISP from logging your web history, emails, app use and the like.
Beyond that, avoid services based in the UK as they are vulnerable. Use services from other countries.
While GCHQ can most likely decrypt or bypass these protections, it requires considerable effort and thus prevents bulk data collection and storage.
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I would suggest making sure it's a VPN with a certificate you can verify through an independent channel. It'd be easy for GHCQ to intercept a PPTP vpn channel and implement a MITM attack. OpenVPN would be a lot more effort.
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They can also just corrupt and subvert the operators of the VPN. Or the VPN you choose may be a covert operation from the git-go. The only thoughts that are truly guaranteed to remain secret are those which are never communicated outside of one's own brain (how confident are you that you never talk in your sleep?).
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I can also understand why they're doing it. It's the response of the plutocrats to the threat as formulated by Nick Hanauer [politico.com]. It's about avoiding the backlash of runaway inequality.
And if it's not entirely their response, it will soon be.
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, the irony seems to be lost on you that most of the immigrants are coming from places that were under British protection of not outright British control at one time or another in the last 100 years. Karma can be a real bitch, huh?
Re:Truly despicable (Score:4, Insightful)
As the UK goes, so goes America.
We have our Islamophobia and immigration fears as a punching bag to take out our frustration at essentially being an out-of-work rust belt in favour of a service economy.
As with Brexit, we will set the house on fire so we won't be bored.
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As the UK goes, so goes America.
That's what scares me. If Brexit had happened 2-3 years ago and Article 50 triggered, I feel like the presidential election would have gone a lot differently. People in the US saw Britain "stick it to the establish" and thought "let's go get us some of that", but haven't had the chance to see the likely fallout of when Britain (not the UK, as if Article 50 is ever triggered Scotland will most likely hold, and accept, another referendum on independence) does pull out of the EU. However, the EU is holding
Same the other way around (Score:3)
Two years of Trump and even the thickest Brit would think twice about Brexit.
Even though the vast majority of the country would refuse to pay the price for Hard Brexit, our unelected authoritarian Prime Minister (whose legislation this is) is determined to push for it anyway.
I wish I had reason to share your optimism re: Article 50.
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So.....in order to keep others from making your country into a totalitarian state ruled by fear, you make your country a totalitarian state ruled by fear.
If you can't beat them, join them! Thanks May and team.
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It is rather amusing to reflect that it is low IQ people who have swallowed the propaganda in the cheap newspapers about Islamic terrorists who are likely to be the first to be fucked by the widespread use of internet surveillance data by random state agencies and private companies. The dragnet will catch anyone: mouthing off with hate speech, using live streaming video services (twitch) without a BBC license, Living with a partner whilst claiming benefits pretending to be single, transferring a vehicle to
Re:Truly despicable (Score:4, Interesting)
So.....in order to keep others from making your country into a totalitarian state ruled by fear, you make your country a totalitarian state ruled by fear.
If you can't beat them, join them! Thanks May and team.
I wrote a paper on this bill. Note that it contains limited exceptions for journalists, medical records, etc... but full exceptions for politicians. Well Done, UK!
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
Once the real British regain control of their borders and kick out the terrorists and others who daily engage in an active assault on British laws and culture, then they can afford to ease up on domestic spying.
This is what delusion looks like on the internet.
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
What does what the previous British monarchy of hundreds of years ago during the age of colonization and exploration have to do with letting in some of the worst and most uncivilized and hostile people on the planet?
I will just leave these [wikipedia.org] links [wikipedia.org] here. Feel free to peruse at your leisure.
Nor will you or any other leftist hypocritical clown
Not too many liberals happen to attend small, rural, Baptist affiliated universities such as the one I attended (weekly chapel attendance was all but mandatory even). Of course, you just demonstrated a common tactic that many on the right are starting to employ: decry anyone who has an education-particularly in science or history- or doesn't toe the increasingly radicalized party line as a "leftist", as if that is supposed to be some kind of insult. I figure if the alt-right hates me and the alt-left hates me then I must be doing something right. The truth is I am something of a centrist in that I am pro limited government (which includes the government leaving abortion and gay marriage alone as it has no right controlling those things, if you or your religion don't like it the government isn't forcing you to have one yourself) and reasonable checks on firearm ownership such as mandatory safety, legal, and competency training (and I own multiple firearms, some of which are illegal to own in certain states).
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The "alt-right" is a figure of the imagination of the "alt-left". There are nothing but radicals on both sides, let's call them for what they are.
There have always been radical leftists as well as right-wing radicals, I'm just not sure where we skewed into the alternate dimension where radical leftism is so capable of browbeating the mainstream centrists into submission. I see the SJW-left as being as dangerous and unhinged as the violent religious right. Say that, however, and you're a "Nazi". When I tell
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Informative)
What does either of the above 2 events - both of which happened >50 years ago - have to do w/ immigration to the UK? The creation of Israel did not displace the Arabs, except for those who left on their own to become refugees in other Arab countries, not UK. The creation of India and Pakistan caused a carnage during the movement of Hindus from the Pakistans to India, but did nothing to cause major migration to the UK. So how are those 2 events relevant at all here?
The British, through the Balfour Declaration/the carving up of the Middle East along with the French following WWI and the partition of India essentially laid the groundwork for the present conditions in those countries, leading to fairly significant exoduses. Due to lingering linguistic and cultural familiarity, the logical place for most of these immigrants/refugees is England. Nothing we do today happens in a vacuum.
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Once the real British regain control of their borders and kick out the terrorists and others who daily engage in an active assault on British laws and culture, then they can afford to ease up on domestic spying.
They could afford to now, let us note. They won't ease up because fighting terrorism isn't the point of domestic spying. Pursuit of power is.
Re: Truly despicable (Score:2)
It hasn't been unlimited.
Re: Truly despicable (Score:2)
If it was unlimited then why do people need to hide in lorries? Surely they just need to turn up at Dover and claim their free council house.
Re: Truly despicable (Score:2)
According to the last census 67.44% of Bradford residents are white. Are they Muslims as well?
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Bradford is not 100% Muslim, nor is it even close to that. I actually live in Bradford, I do not need to read up on the subject to know that you are wrong on your points about unlimited immigration and Bradford's population. It should also be noted that Bradford is a city, and not a town.
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So basic human rights like simple privacy should be ended because of possible terrorists?
Fuck you, if you are so afraid of life, please go die now.
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I don't pretend to like privacy violations any more than you do, but they do it b'cos they have to! Unlimited Muslim immigration to UK
The UK does not have "unlimited Muslim immigration."
Where the heck did you get that from? They have immigration laws just like pretty much every other country.
Re:Truly despicable (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the BS excuse they used for Brexit. Muslims enter other parts of the EU and because the UK is part of the EU there is unchecked migration between member countries. Hence "unlimited Muslim migration". It's all fear mongering and if people took two seconds to actually think about things they would see it for crap argument that it is.
But the problem is that people have stopped thinking and that is why we have all of these articles now talking about how we need to stop fake news. We are past peak civilization and now every Onion story needs to come with a warning stating that it's a Fake News story.
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People are going to be disappointed when the realize that unless they build a wall along the Irish and Scottish borders, they aren't going to stop immigration or relatively free movement.
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Bugger me sideways, Brits had an actual cuisine?
Re:That's where we're heading... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Perhaps the most depressing thing is that this isn't even mentioned on major news outlets like the BBC today.
The second most depressing thing is that Labour wanted it as well and basically allowed the Tories to wave it through as soon as they were no longer hampered by being in coalition. If you look at the Parliamentary speeches, a lot of MPs seem to genuinely believe this is a good and necessary law.
Most of the public don't want it, once they know about it and understand what it is. Most of the smaller po
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Informative)
No. there isn't.
I believe people with strong anti-muslim views tend to be disproportionately represented.
Yes. Fortunately blasphemy laws were abolished 8 years ago.
I believe this is the case.
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Bull$h!t.
Islam still considers blasphemy laws to be punishable by death.
Islam still kills people for leaving their religion.
All 4 main schools of jurisprudence agrees on those points. Adherents to the religion agree to it.
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The issue is: are there a growing amount of people willing to use force to implement Sharia Law in Britain. And if so, and if you want to prevent it - what steps do you take?
I would prefer Liberals start to debate and denounce people who promote blasphemy laws. Too many Muslims act and think like the left-wing's impression of Right-Wing Conservatives but in this case you don't hear a peep.
If Right-Wing Conservatives argued that the punishments st
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So there isn't a problem of mass bombings and violence? And is this violence coming from a select group of people?
When was the last time there was a mass bombing or mass violence in the UK?
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When was the last time there was a mass bombing or mass violence in the UK?
The American funded IRA ran a 20 odd year bombing campaign in mainland Britain that only ended in the late 1990s. Then there were the 7/7 bombings in London on 7th July 2005 by Islamic Terrorists who blew up buses and tube trains..
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
So that would make the last "mass bombings and violence" over 10 years ago, so it would seem the answer to that question is that mass bombings and violence aren't a problem in the UK, and so these security laws are not only morally wrong but completely unnecessary too.
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So they do the only other thing available to them - surveil everyone! Not ideal, but sure beats just letting the next Bataclan attack happen in the UK
The irony is that mass surveillance will actually make detecting and stopping attacks much harder as people intent on doing harm will have to act independently, instead of conspiracies involving 5, 10, 20 people (more opportunity to uncover the plot). So while the severity of attacks might go down (hard for 1 guy to perpetrate high casualty attacks without captive targets (see the Pulse shootings or the truck rampage in France as exceptions), you will probably see a higher frequency overall in the number o
Re: Truly despicable (Score:2)
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then they can spy on me as well. I don't mind, since I'm not trying to overthrow any government.
Neither are about 99.9999% of the Muslims in Britain.
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then they can spy on me as well. I don't mind, since I'm not trying to overthrow any government.
Neither are about 99.9999% of the Muslims in Britain.
Probably more like 99.99% We are many, they are few but how do you catch those bad apples?
Re:Truly despicable (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably more like 99.99% We are many, they are few but how do you catch those bad apples?
Police work. Talk to people. Adopt policies that encourage assimilation and understanding instead of radicalization and separation (on both sides). Teach people to believe they are British first and Muslim second. Show people that when they attack Britain they are only attacking themselves. Even then it's impossible to catch all of them, but that's the trade off you have to make if you want to live in a free state. You're still more likely to die by getting hit by a plane while walking down your street than getting killed by a terrorist, whether they are a Muslim terrorist, an Irish extremist, or a psychotic Pastafarian trying to strangle you with a wet noodle.
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"Let's fight fascism in the US and UK with more fascism....what could go wrong?"
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You know, the way the world is going at the moment, makes me think that Latin/South America, in spite of all its woes, is the only sane region on Earth. We are actually moving toward more open societies, with more democracy. In fact, a civil war has just ended in one the nations down here. Where else you are seeing things like these?
Back in the day, not even in my wildest dreams I would embrace the notion that Latin America would be the last bastion of freedom. Strange century, strange world.
Think again. Right now, Brazil, the largest country in Latin America is being literally plundered by local criminals sponsored by the US and they are competing against each other to see who destroys the country first and delivers anything of value to US corporations. Democracy in Brazil was always a fantasy, now this fantasy has been torn and we are moving towards yet another dictatorship. Better you seek democracy elsewhere.
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LOL. As if crime & politics don't have reflections on each other.
Now you're bashing both Brazil and the US. I hope the NSA takes note of your activity, asshole.
The Trumpies are even stupider than imagined.
Funny you say that... He's exactly the brazilian version of a Trump voter: Stupid, (very) far right-wing and who considers as mortal enemy everyone who does not think exacty like him.
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Why don't they just kill the terrorists and let everyone keep their privacy. It's not like they don't know who they are.
B'cos that would be Islamophobic
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The British people need to grow a set and first, kill the tyrants in the government running the place into the ground and stomping on your very humanity, and then drive out or kill the Muslims.
C'mon, Brits! Raid the military/police armories, grab some bleeding weapons, and start taking Britain back for Brits! Hang the bloody bastards on Whitehall, in 10 Downing, and Parliament! Drag those gestapo fucks out of GCHQ, the Met, MI5/6, and hang them from lamp posts as a warning to the next bastards who think they want to abuse the British people. I promise there will be many, many Americans who will support and aid you.
Clearly the contradiction of advocating for a genocide while calling those you don't like as Nazis is lost on you.
Hey, at least it's not the US (Score:5, Funny)
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Just wait until January 20th.
Remind them that one day, their opposition can win (Score:5, Insightful)
During the Bush administration, I used to remind people of the dangers of giving too much power to the executive branch by reminding them that one day, another "Clinton" will have control.
During the Obama administration, I reminded people that one day, another "Bush" will have control.
Eventually, I'll remind people that another "Obama" or "Trump" will have control.
Never give anyone, even your allies, the kind of power you would fear in the hands of your enemies.
LK
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In this case, the Conservative party can have a reasonable expectation to remain in power for a long time, especially if leaving the EU causes Scotland to abandon the union. Scotland represents some 10% of the population and regularly vote everyone-but-Theresa-May's-party.
For those interested in evil genius accomplishments and Bond-style villains, it's a good time to point out that with the chaos and paralysis that followed the recent referendum, Theresa May eventually got the law she had wanted for a long
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The Conservative government, during this term, will pass boundary changes [bbc.co.uk] which are not blatant gerrymandering but do look like ensuring a multiple term Conservative government regardless of anything else that happens. The graph in the article nicely illustrates how irrelevant the Scotland, Wales and NI vote actually is despite what some (invariably Conservative supporting) people in England think.
Re:Remind them that one day, their opposition can (Score:4)
The problem with that argument (and I agree with your point), is that both sides believe people are waking up from the lies of the other. They both see history as being on their side, and their position as the inevitable conclusion. Why fear the future? "We've won!"
If you're a nice approachable person, many people will assume you'd agree with them on politics, simply because you seem sane and decent. They absolutely cannot understand how anyone could agree with the other side unless they're stupid or evil.
While your point makes a lot of sense to a rational actor, in politics very few are.
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That depends on your definition of ... (Score:2)
... democracy.
Some people would say that laws like this mean you've forfeited the right to call yourself a democracy.
Others define democracy to mean only how you elect your leaders (although all but the purists typically include republics in the definition), not whether you have freedom of speech, etc. With that definition, there have probably been other "democracies" with far more draconian laws.
The EU is the only government that actively looks (Score:2)
Re:The EU is the only government that actively loo (Score:4, Insightful)
UK is a Democracy as much as the US (Score:2)
In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
There needs to be a rule that every time someone going on about our governments being Democracies just needs to slapped like the retarded child that they are.
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As a Brit I've long suspected that in the UK at least, the ritual of elections is kept up just for appearances sake, and that its actually just an illusion of Democracy solely designed to keep the people placated.
It appears that was also the intended purpose of the Brexit referendum, until it totally backfired on the then-government plans.
I'd be VERY surprised if the beureaucrats in Whitehall aren't now taking the view that they learnt their lesson well and will no longer be trusting the people to make any
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Well it didn't help that the leave side was promising the world and people were buying it. Especially all the money that was to go to the NHS and the farmers. The day after the election it was "What money?"
At least the UK can run a proper election. Not hearing about it for years ahead of time, not changing the rules on who can vote, not hearing about chads or electronic voter machine fraud.
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People like to argue "We're not a Democracy!" on this side of the pond too. They are wrong.
Democracy isn't a strict term with a single definition, but rather a master set of associated governing styles, of which includes representative governments like the US and the UK. Representatives don't listen to and act on behalf of their voters as a courtesy, it's their job. They have to bend to the public will in order to keep their job. While this isn't always true - thanks to gerrymandering and other such schemes
They're keeping it secret (Score:5, Interesting)
The news suppression must be in force.
No mention of it on the BBC website, but that's frequently the case if the government want something suppressed, the BBC is not the impartial news service that some people outside the UK think it is.
What's more annoying is that it has no mention of this on the bills before parliament site which shows the last action as Lords bouncing back to Commons [parliament.uk].
But even if it's not actually law yet, it's going to be soon. There are just formalities left.
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Yes, but all preamble about the bill from proposal, speculation about effect and news on progress but nothing about it actually being passed.
HAHA (Score:2)
No change then. (Score:3)
This is just formalizing and bringing out into the open what has already actually been happening in secret for years.
My only concern is given what happens in secret is often beyond the law, if the law itself is beyond the edge of decency, how bad can/will the secret stuff become?
We all know its coming, don't we? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, we all know it's coming.
Eastern Europe, Erdogan, Putin, Le Pen, Frauke Petry, Donald Trump ... these are special effects, smoke & mirrors.
The real action happens when laws like this get passed or Tim Cook and his Silicon Valley Bros push for everything-as-a-service / 'ecosystem' and proprietary payment systems instead of cash.
You can read it in Aldous Huxleys work, and in William Gibsons and Neal Stephensons.
We are moving into an all-out full-blown cyperpunk society where anyone halfway free from 'the system' is a potential suspect or locked out of essential basics , only able to acquire them by semi-legal / grey-market means. A world where *everything* has a price-tag and you can't move without Big Brother watching you.
Tamper-free FOSS IT systems are becoming more and more exotic a concept while the brainwashed masses think Fakebook or Twotter is some sort of innovation over other services we've had for decades.
Basically we're smack in the middle of a cyberpunk society already.
End to end encrypted messaging... (Score:2)
The basic trick you can use (something which took me at most a couple of hours on a lazy afternoon to knock out off the top of my head -- easy or any CS student) is to have a MySQL table somewhere, with a simple schema of { int insertTime, char[32] key, string value }. The keys are produced by hashing a string of some sort, and the values are produced by encrypting using some password used by a related hashing method. Essentially you take a string 'HexVision' and salt it in two different ways. All table row
George would be proud (Score:2)
Re:George would be proud (Score:4, Insightful)
Not really. Reality is much worse.
Re:George would be proud (Score:4, Interesting)
Not really. Reality is much worse.
Have you actually read 1984? If you think present reality is worse than that, then I have a bridge to sell you.
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Yes. Several times, and yes I still think reality is worse.
Re:George would be proud (Score:4, Informative)
Yes. Several times, and yes I still think reality is worse.
You think that a reality where you will be kidnapped and tortured for criticising the government is better than what we have now? You do realise that Twitter telling nutcases where to go is not the same as literally being tortured, right?
Not that "Snooper's Charter" (Score:2)
The "Investigatory Powers Bill" is not quite as bad as the "Communications Data Bill" that was shot down, this one passed by a huge majority:
In March 2016, the House of Commons passed the second reading of the Investigatory Powers Bill on a 281 to 15 vote, moving the bill to the committee stage.
Wasn't exactly surprising the House of Lords passed it too, almost as much a formality as the Queen's Royal Assent.
At huge cost to the ISPs (Score:2)
The law will force internet providers to record every internet customer's top-level web history in real-time for up to a year
That is a lot of data the ISPs will have to store. I assume they're going to store logs from their DNS servers, for every little DNS request.
Overload it. (Score:4, Interesting)
What this will look like (Score:3)
So all freedom of speech is gone from any UK isp account with a UK ip.
Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] "gain access to large amounts of Internet users' personal data, without any individual suspicion or targeting."
Once noticed, expect computer entry. The gov and mil will enter and alter your computer, network or any other device.
Expect that device to report all movements if your in the media or in contact with the media.
Whistleblowers reaching out to the traditional media won't get beyond the first call or meeting.
What can the press and media do?
Create a series of devices and fill them with fiction. Reports, searches, contacts. Use any UK isp for searches for amazing new stories with background help from informants and insiders. Sock puppet contacts with details of meetings. Walk, drive out for such meetings so gps and other tracking can collect. Select a good location to meet "someone" handing over vast amounts of data.
Then do days of background research with as much jargon, mil, science and party political terms as possible.
Flood the digital collection system with a lot of work related fiction everyday in plain text. Any real contact would be without an electronic devices, away from CCTV. Any phone been given to a friend to walk around with and handed back later. Buy a typewriter. Create your own secure shorthand for paper notes. Learn about one time pads. Once a story is ready, publish early, fully and often. Expect all networks and digital files to be searched. So have a lot of digital fiction ready
The UK gov and mil hope that a lot of new SJW, gov staff and volunteers can cover an entire nation of networked users. Physical access to a site will be rare as such teams of contractors are so expensive and might be reported or seen. Buying any new computer or network device with a CC or online is a risk if working in the media. Expect upgrades as delivered. Use and buy any such devices for fictional creativity.
VPN and onion routing are not much use for the media given the public court reporting about online tracking at a now low cost per case.
Democracy and public interaction and the fear of been reported will be very chilling for democracy.
The other real issue will be for the reader comments in the UK. Expect SJW reporting to gov and teams of gov staff looking over any and all comments.
A good VPN well outside 5 eye nations or the EU might still allow freedom of speech until the comment is removed or comments get turned off.
Credit card use on a VPN would also be an issue.
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If the internet really is to be considered as a public space, censorship laws should be expanded to prevent outsourcing censorship to private companies which somehow makes it completely AOK.
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If it weren't muslims, there would be some group that governments would position as requiring these powers to fight.
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"Like who? What were they doing in the 90's, after the Cold War, but before 9/11?"
Figuring out what these new Internets and The Google really do.
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Most likely the Irish...
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Al-Qaeda were a Cold War era group too, but back then they were getting US support to cause trouble in Soviet.
No, they weren't - this is another canard that's used to defame the US. In the 80s, the main Jihadist group that the US supported was Gulbudin Heqmatyar's Hizb-i Islami, which was one of those Afghan militias backed by Pakistan. The Taliban was something that the Bhutto regime started supporting, since Bhutto hated Gen Zia, who was the US ally. But by then, the Soviets had started their withdrawal from Afghanistan, so from that point on, it was just the Afghan civil war. And the US wasn't involved in t
Re:Thank you... (Score:5, Informative)
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Not really. The only thing special was they managed to be "terrorist of the day" when the tech ability became possible. If the IRA (suitably funded by the US, thanks for that) were still at it, they'd have used them as an excuse.
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Sounds more like this will just generate more "homegrown" terrorists....
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Re:One reason to support Brexit (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe the UK is trying a new approach to stop terrorism. Take away freedoms one at a time until the terrorists no longer hate them! /s
Re:One reason to support Brexit (Score:4, Insightful)
Given the set {Diversity, Security, Liberty}, you can pick at most 2. Britain chose Diversity, and as surely as the sun rises in the east, Security evaporated. To restore Security, they are throwing out Liberty.
If Brexit was the harbinger of a rising tide, I expect that the country will complete the cycle by using Security to drive out Diversity so that they can restore Liberty.
It helps to remember that the history of Britain for the last 1000 years or so has been the rise of Liberty. The people will have to decide if we are seeing the end and reversal of that trend, or just an 80 year detour.
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I would argue that your conjecture could be simplified to: Pick one, Security or Liberty.
Security is gasoline, it doesn't mix well with Liberty's waters. Another analogy, Security and Liberty are on either ends of a slider/spectrum (think volume control).
Regarding Diversity, one can spy on a neighbor of the same or other
Spot on commentary. It's terrifying how terrorists can force our leaders to enact such changes (fear). As well, out of more fear, many of the populace support such change.
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Finishing my thought, replying to myself.
Regarding Diversity, one can spy on a neighbor of the same or other colored skin. It only takes efforts to promote distrust.
Your sig was a fortune teller...
Re:One reason to support Brexit (Score:4, Interesting)
America is, for the most part, a very safe place to live. If you can avoid visiting a few specific zip codes, your chances of dying violently are very, very low. My understanding is that England is pretty much the same, except that they use post codes instead of zip codes.
In those parts of those countries, there is pretty much no need or desire to spy on or restrict anyone. The few exceptions seem mostly to be people that don't want their government to push diversity on them by force.
Without diversity, you get security for free. With diversity, the best you can do is to sell your Liberty for a veneer of security.
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Well, the UK is trying to pick both options, restricting access and spying on everyone.
Re: UK government - fascists in diguise (Score:2)
Re: At least we know it's happening (Score:2)
Re:Uh oh.... (Score:4, Funny)
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Max Headroom [youtube.com] got it right on the spot already in the 80's.