DHS To Extend OPT To 60 Months, Says Employers, Universities, Students Demand It (natlawreview.com) 178
theodp writes: In August, Federal Judge Ellen Huvelle called BS on 'emergency' changes made by the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security in 2008 to Optional Practical Training (OPT) that extended the amount of time foreign STEM graduates of U.S. colleges could stay in the country and work ("to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage," as Bill Gates explained it in 2007). "The 17-month duration of the STEM extension appears to have been adopted directly from the unanimous suggestions by Microsoft and similar industry groups," said the Judge in her ruling, which threatened to invalidate STEM OPT extensions in February. But the DHS fired back Monday with a new proposed rule — Improving and Expanding Training Opportunities for F-1 Nonimmigrant Students With STEM Degrees and Cap-Gap Relief for All Eligible F-1 Students — that will extend STEM OPT to as much as 60 months (a standard 12-month OPT period, plus two 24-month extensions). Foreign students demand it, explained the DHS, as do public colleges and universities, who "particularly benefit from the payment of tuition by foreign students, especially in comparison to the tuition paid by in-state students." DHS estimates that the proposed rule will affect 634,464 foreign STEM students over the next 10 years.
woah woah woah (Score:5, Informative)
Foreign students demand it, explained the DHS, as do public colleges and universities, who "particularly benefit from the payment of tuition by foreign students, especially in comparison to the tuition paid by in-state students." DHS estimates that the proposed rule will affect 634,464 foreign STEM students over the next 10 years.
so the schools are selling us americans out to foreigners because... surprise surprise they get paid more! And even worse the government is supporting that????
where are all the "tuition is to high" americans at??? they need to stand up and say enough is enough
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"tuition is to high"
"grammar is too low!"
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The scary thing is, this person can probably legally buy a gun.
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So what does not-for-profit really mean then, when they're engaged in the same behavior.
It means they want to make money so they can grow, or at least stay afloat. But the owners of the not-for-profit don't get to keep the profits; unless they happen to be employed by it and collect a 6 or 7 figure salary.
Re:woah woah woah (Score:4, Insightful)
where are all the "tuition is to high" americans at??? they need to stand up and say enough is enough
In theory, the high tuitions that foreign students pay keeps tuition lower for domestic students.
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Re:woah woah woah (Score:4, Insightful)
In theory, the high tuitions that foreign students pay keeps tuition lower for domestic students.
BS. It doesn't work that way. Because of regulations, they can only charge state residents so much. So they charge others more. You're imagining some kind of "This is our total budget, so if others pay more, they pay less" scheme. Hahahaha. What world do you live in?
It's just exactly greed, nothing more.
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Except... load of shit.. because why does a country like Germany have the best universities which are all free to residents and non-residents. Having tuition is just bullshit and of course the grubby mofo's who run them want to capitalize on that and rake in as much cash as possible, American citizens be damned.
I am *so* disgusted with Obama's failures and wholesale selling out of America.
Donald Trump 2016
The argument goes (Score:3)
Wish we could do something about it, but good luck. Nobody gives a shit. Hell, us techies laughed at the blue collar folks while they were losing their jobs overseas. We kept voting in right wing free trade j
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look at the charts, as soon as the feds guaranteed they would pick up the tab, prices started going up and up and up. The schools have no reason to care how you do when you get there because YOU arent paying them, the government does. They dont care that you get stuck paying the government back for years afterwards.
if you are going to go off on "right wingers" at least go after them for legit reasons, this o
Nice try (Score:3, Interesting)
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Cost of college education in California was $300 a year ($1800 in today's money / year).
College education was basically free before.
It's only since the far right has been cutting taxes to further enrich their corporate owners and further indebt the US that social services have suffered.
Thanks for playing.
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Most of us Libertarians have, indeed, thought it out. Me? I support the idea of free or inexpensive tuition for qualified people and for qualified majors. We can debate where and who those are but I'd suggest we start with STEM and people who score well on the SAT. Why? It's a way to give more people liberty. It's also cheaper and more productive in the long run. People should still be able to pay for (and it should be less expensive, maybe even partially subsidized) alternative majors as well. Again, the r
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I hope you have some good luck in your upcoming elections
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Somewhere along the line, the Constitution went from being a list of what the government could do to being a list of what the government can't do. "No? It doesn't say we can't do that? Well, let's do it!" You could say I'm pissed off but I suspect I'm preaching to the choir. Run for office. Really, even if it's just a small and local one. I'm refusing all campaign contributions - direct contributions. My signs aren't fully designed but they'll be open for use by anyone who wants to print them or whatnot. Yo
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This is pre-Adam Smith bull shit. Decreasing trade is not how you build the wealth of a nation. Basically, when an industry gets lots of high productivity workers added to it, this has the potential to simply increase incumbent worker salaries. That is, it could increase productivity of all workers to have a larger, more productive, workforce in place. There is a tendency to see this as a zero sum game but there is absolutely no evidence that it is.
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Isn't that how it's supposed to be in capitalist America? A university degree brings you economic benefit in the form of higher wages (in theory). Free market economics set the price, and foreign students are willing to pay more for the education and then work for less when they graduate. Why would Americans expect not to compete?!
This is what happens when you turn the education of your country's youth into a for-profit business. The best part is that in 20 years time when you need a doctor you will get to
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Prom date wouldn't put out, I see.
Fuck You, DHS (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck You, DHS.
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Fuck you too, Citizen.
Oh, wait, that's precisely the point. Like most of the rest of the US government, part of the mandate of DHS is now protecting corporate interests like copyright and making sure they can have cheap foreign labor to drive down wages.
Who's fucked now?
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Got some bad news for you, man. Prepare to hold your nose and vote for Hillary.
DHS: for immigrant work visas? (Score:2)
Perfect sense (Score:3)
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Sorry - only a near rhyme and using a near-synonym, too. Lousy lyric...
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Pounds, shillings, and pence.
I got the reference. I think the other that replied is not a fan.
US fucked visa system (Score:5, Insightful)
The only reason for these ridiculous band aids is that getting a green card takes fucking forever and the standards for work visas are incorrectly set. A BA/BSc/BEng from Harvard and Podunk State are considered equal. It's no secret that American universities attract some of the smartest people on the planet, which is a unique advantage that the US has. Competition for top universities is fierce and pretty much manages to swoop in the top talent on the planet. The problem is then that the immigration system is not at all merit based. Someone with a degree from Harvard is on equal footing with a graduate from a completely unknown school which accepts everyone who can send them a check.
The problem is that one should keep out people that are no better than what can be sourced among the local population. At the same time the immigration system needs to guarantee continuity for top students while quickly getting them to the point where they can stay permanently, which allow them to do things like start a family, buy a house etc. If the immigration system forces someone to move abroad even for a month there's a high chance they're not coming back.
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Where did I mention the money elite of Asia? I said let the best students stay and with best I mean the ones that get into top schools and graduate with good grades. I specifically said that the immigration system should kick out the ones that can send a check, but have nothing else to offer.
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Why should America be a bolt hole for the monied elite of Asia when are own kids don't have a pot to piss in?
Because the moneyed elite bring their money, skills, and connections with them, and create jobs here.
You should read up on the Lump of Labor Fallacy [wikipedia.org]. There is not a fixed number of jobs in the economy, and there is no zero-sum-game where a job to an immigrant means one less job for an American. Real economies don't work that way. More liberal immigration policies, especially for skilled people, have historically led to lower unemployment.
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> Real economies don't work that way.
It's not a one-to-one trade, because the immigrants charge less hourly but often require a great deal more training.
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You cannot allow offered pay to be a criteria here, at least in the USA. If you do that, there will be a race to the bottom in terms of who can pay the least. Even if you take the top X% (like I think you're describing in the UK), if the top 10% is at a 50% lower salary than was offered before, then the workers (continue to) lose.
Companies don't compete for talent in the USA. The degree of collusion is IMHO way way WAY larger than people think. If WidgetCo pays $50,000, and CogsInc also pays $50,000, th
A Relevant Truth (Score:1)
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong
pushes wages down (Score:4, Insightful)
i imagine the problem of "employee shortage" could be fixed in the private market (via higher salaries) rather than by passing laws to bring in outside people to work for less...
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Except that the private market is the group that's pushing for the laws to allow them to bring in outside people to work for less.
What broken train of logic makes you think the private market is going to suddenly stop doing that and start offering higher salaries to fix the imaginary shortage that they've made up in order to try and get those laws passed?
Ooh, let me guess... you're a Libertarian, aren't you.
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We could start by either fixing the H1-B system (for example, actually enforcing the rule that H1-Bs must be paid the "prevailing wage" for a given market and skill set) or eliminate it altogether. Make it easier for people with skill sets valuable to US employers to get work visas that are NOT tied to one specific company, like the H1-B is. If they're not beholden to their employer for their status, then companies have to compete for them, the same as 'natural born' workers. Stop allowing employers to c
Summary Achievement (Score:2)
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Immigration, with limits, is just fine. This isn't really about immigration though, it's about temporary labor. This is about the system being gamed by some large corporations and corrupt politicians in order to drive down wages which fattens the profits of the corps involved but harms the country's economy and social well-being over time.
If this was really about immigration, the immigrants would have to go through the official process. Then if they planned on staying here, they'd experience all the taxes a
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Me, I dislike emigration. I want people to come here and stay here. Immigrants have already been schooled to 18+ and have the wherewithal to uproot themselves for a better life.
If you're worried about competition, form an effective German-style union where both sides of industry care for long term business efficiency and want secure, motivated, skilled workers rather than a race to the bottom. Or start up your own business. If the country becomes so much more efficient that it needs proportionally less labour, said unions can negotiate a reduction in working hours.
There may be people who dislike immigration period. But most of the conservatives hate illegal immigration. And most of the democrats then like to conveniently leave the word illegal out or change it to something that sounds less like illegal. The truth of the matter is that many H1bs are here illegally, because the companies that hired them, their visa lawyers and they themselves lied and colluded to get a job when many, many Americans were available and willing to work the job for the right amount of mon
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Next there'll be no bank robbers, just undocumented withdrawers.
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But most of the conservatives hate illegal immigration.
Except when hiring maids and gardeners.
And people to work in their chicken-processing factories.
I'm sure that makes a good argument, but what proof do we have that it is true? I personally have never hired a maid or a gardener at all, and neither has any of my friends, who mostly happen to be conservatives. I'm pretty sure most of the more well-to-do conservatives don't hire illegals either. They hire legitimate gardening services (or mow their own lawns. You don't get rich by writing a bunch of checks). Perhaps some of those gardening services employ illegals, but the responsibility for ensuring tha
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H-1B is bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
99% of the H-1B circus is bullshit.
Are you really telling me that in this entire country there isn't anyone with the skills to fill that job? BULLSHIT.
This is probably even true at a state level, and also probably true at a local level as well.
Maybe if you're looking for something really esoteric, but a programming job or skill? Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.
It's nothing more than a way to get cheap, compliant labor while simultaneously driving down wages and sucking up tax breaks. I live a few miles from Microsofts Redmond campus, trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about.
The entire H-1B program should junked and redone so that only TRULY "unfindable" skills or candidates would qualify.
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There is certainly a demand in the upper echelons with respect to skill and talent. There is certainly someone who can do the job, but the problem is that they probably already have a job. For jobs in Finance where firms look to hire people that are at the level of being among the top graduates from top schools in mathematics, we are talking about a fairly small bunch, which is very small if you discount foreign students. Unfortunately, with all the Indian outsourcing firms hoarding the H-1B visas, they vis
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For programming its pretty common. For a lot of the northern states, Canada is closer than going across the country. TN1 visa is okay, but people eventually want something more permanent for quality of life (TN1 makes it hard to own property, for example), so a lot of H1Bs go to Canadians.
And with all the startups in Cambridge, NYC, etc, its VERY hard to build a team of any significant size, even if you're allowing remote workers, pay for relocation, etc.
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Top startups are paying pretty damn well, so this has nothing to do with not paying enough. I work for Google and we lose engineers to them all the time despite already paying these people well.
Yep. The challenge for companies like Google (my employer also) is that they can't offer the candidate a chance at becoming a multi-millionaire, and the startups can. Google can offer to pay $200K in salary + bonus + stock grants, but a startup can offer $100K + stock options that will probably expire worthless, but have a non-negligible chance of being worth $50M. Especially for younger engineers who don't yet need to support family, etc., it makes a lot of sense to hop from startup to startup for a few y
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The fact that the H1-B program requires the visa holders to be paid the prevailing wage. Oh, sure, that's what it says on paper, but since it's almost never enforced (a claim which can be substantiated by the fact that US employers are willing to participate in the program, which would not happen if they couldn't pay these people less) it's meaningless. Perhaps some companies (like yours) play by the rules and pay the H1-Bs the same as a native worker, but I would bet the farm that 99% of all H1-B visa ho
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The fact that the H1-B program requires the visa holders to be paid the prevailing wage. Oh, sure, that's what it says on paper, but since it's almost never enforced (a claim which can be substantiated by the fact that US employers are willing to participate in the program, which would not happen if they couldn't pay these people less) it's meaningless. Perhaps some companies (like yours) play by the rules and pay the H1-Bs the same as a native worker, but I would bet the farm that 99% of all H1-B visa holders in the USA are paid at least 10-20% below the true "prevailing wage".
That doesn't contradict what I said.
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This is what you said, which I am definitely contradicting. As I said, that's what it requires on paper, but in the real world it isn't enforced. Any rule you can't (or won't) enforce is no longer a rule.
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The origins of the ideas surrounding the lax, well funded international student enrolment go back to the Cold War. The US wanted to accept, educated and pump out as many skilled people from different nations as it could. They would return home with first hand experiences of freedom, democracy, advanced US science, the big US brands and US only methods.
Some of then on average given a good US degree would infect their city, lower or higher government positions with
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You know, you can use the word "nigger" if you want. Especially if you're an AC.
Re:H-1B is bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually there are lots and lots of jobs where a particular skillset won't exist in the local market. This often comes about when an industry expands rapidly. One example would be the shale gas growth in the US. While there were people who had experience mapping the reservoirs locally there would have been a ridiculous shortage of people who would be genuinely able to do the work at the level required. It simply was impossible for the local market to supply those people as they weren't needed at all 10 years ago.
It's not even a case that if I offer more money I can get one. It is the case that there are 100 jobs but only 75 people who can do it. And if it takes 20 years to be able to do that job it doesn't matter how much money I offer there will still be 25 jobs un-filled.
This actually happens a lot more than you might think.
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So why are people being laid off and forced to train their H-1B replacements before they go? Disney pretty much disproves your story of it all by themselves.
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That would be for the site based roles. But there are a lot of office based roles as well. Geophysicists, reservoir engineers, production engineers, geologists etc which don't go out to the sites that much. Quite a few of them are based in Houston even though their sites might be on the other side of the country. There aren't enough of those people in the country to fill those roles, let alone the ones which require tough working conditions.
You also see the same in things like civil infrastructure engin
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You are limited to places like Australia & Canada which aren't known for their cheap labour.
Which is what it's really always about, isn't it? Despite all your whining about "unavailable people". It's still all about "unavailable at the price I want to pay".
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Why do you hate America? That costs money.
Vote Bernie (Score:3)
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Way ahead of you...I'll be voting for him both in the primary and in the general election. :)
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US schools should teach Hindi. I've noticed that lots of these job applications have requirements like "fluent in Hindi", so it's clearly an in-demand skill for US workers to have. I can't imagine why, but if that's what they want...
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US schools should teach Hindi.
Schools these days barely teach English, I'm not sure they're capable of teaching an actual foreign language.
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Frankly, I don't know. If you are looking at statistics [1], the unemploymenet in young graduates is only 5%. When you account for the ones between two jobs and the ones that falls in the category "the guy graduated but you really wonder why", it seems to me that the jobs are filled. So I can buy the argument that there is a shortage of talents.
Now, how this is managed by the H1B process and the OPT is dubious. (I am on H1B right now, and I find the status is weird.) I work in a univesity, and our graduates
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I think that 99% of the typical programmer or developer jobs could be filled from within the US, frankly.
More specialized jobs (i.e. biomedical research positions) are more difficult to fill domestically, but if you look at the majority of positions H-1Bs are used for, it's hard to deny that there are almost certainly plenty of qualified applicants available in the US.
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The condition for H1B is that there isn't anyone local you can find in 30 days of advertising.
This "condition" is routinely bypassed, mostly by advertising ludicrous requirements that are impossible to meet.
skill
It is a myth that H-1Bs are about obtaining skilled workers. Most of the H-1B personnel I have worked with don't have any actual skill. Some do have real skills, but they are the exception, not the rule.
No shortage on skilled labor for IT (Score:1)
With the 10,000's of jobs that IT staff have lost to whole departments being relocated to India, I seriously question the claim of shortage of skilled IT labor. What they're short on is people to work for almost free living 8 to a house. Ref: Disney Florida, SunCorp bank, HP printer and networks division, (and the list goes on). I bet the majority of the 87000 H1-B visas are being hoarded by just a very few large companies: TCS, IBM, Accenture, EDS, etc.
Crisis in H-1B visa shortage .. (Score:3)
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Why do you think foreign students are entitled to (Score:2)
a job in the US at all? Are US citizens allowed to go live and work in any country they want?
Because US education system attracts them here (Score:1)
Am I allowed to attend IIT in India and then... (Score:2)
get a job there? Yes or No?
Oh, right, it's only racist xenophobia when it's Americans doing it. Your entire argument is that since there are good colleges in the US (and the US has worked hard to build a strong economy) then anyone anywhere should be allowed to buy their way into American citizenship for the price of attending a US university--regardless of the impact to actual American citizens and the US economy.
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Great news (Score:1)
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I'm sure we can find a person in another country to make comments as an AC for cheaper than you, too.
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Did you even read the summary?
This program specificially has "non-immigrant" in it's title and it's intended to take up the slack for another non-immigrant program (namely H1-B).
A "guest worker" is by definition not an "immigrant".
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Slashdot sure is anti-immigrant. One may even say *gasp* bigoted...
There are a a lot of idealists on slashdot. Unfortunately, just like in IT, the code that works perfectly under clean room, vetted data situations doesn't work so well in the real world. Everybody on slashdot is in favor of taxing the rich, but when the government looks at them and says "okay rich man, hand over your wallet", they all act surprised.
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Somehow I doubt it. It's more like: Slashdot, we sit around in our parents basement and pretend we are the 1%.
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Slashdot: home of the 1%
Somehow I doubt it. It's more like: Slashdot, we sit around in our parents basement and pretend we are the 1%.
Believe me, the government considers pretty much everybody that is in slashdot to be the 1%
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