Court: Lawsuit Over NYPD Surveillance of Muslims Can Proceed (washingtonpost.com) 253
PolygamousRanchKid sends this report from the Washington Post:
A federal court said Tuesday that a civil rights lawsuit accusing police in New York City of improperly singling out Muslims for surveillance could proceed, reversing a lower court's decision last year to dismiss the case. In its opinion (PDF), a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit rejected the city's call to have the case dismissed and brushed aside any suggestion that media reports about the surveillance, rather than the surveillance itself, caused any harm.
The lawsuit claims that surveillance of Muslim people in New Jersey discriminated against them due to their religion. It was filed by Muslim Advocates, a legal advocacy group, and later joined by the Center for Constitutional Rights, another legal organization, on behalf of several New Jersey Muslims who say they were unconstitutionally monitored by the New York Police Department. ... Last year, the NYPD disbanded the unit involved in the surveillance activities, a move that Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) praised in a statement at the time as "a critical step forward in easing tensions between the police and the communities they serve."
The lawsuit claims that surveillance of Muslim people in New Jersey discriminated against them due to their religion. It was filed by Muslim Advocates, a legal advocacy group, and later joined by the Center for Constitutional Rights, another legal organization, on behalf of several New Jersey Muslims who say they were unconstitutionally monitored by the New York Police Department. ... Last year, the NYPD disbanded the unit involved in the surveillance activities, a move that Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) praised in a statement at the time as "a critical step forward in easing tensions between the police and the communities they serve."
sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
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The thing is there is plenty of terrorism and violence from other groups as well. Christians, Buddhists, and even Atheists can be radicalized and be turned violent. To attack people who do not follow their views on life. Just take a look at the classic Flame wars between VI and EMACS. So much anger and hate for a FREAKING TEXT editor, that is usually both installed by default or both not at all on most systems. If you think it is any particular group of people who are the problem, you are seriously misle
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Re:sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey. American Exceptionalist. If the rest of the world held the U.S. to that standard, the entire American population would have been exterminated decades ago. Because you can take the above number, add four zeros to it, double that number, and you have a good approximation of the number of deaths the U.S. is responsible for since WWII.
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Hey. American Exceptionalist. If the rest of the world held the U.S. to that standard, the entire American population would have been exterminated decades ago. Because you can take the above number, add four zeros to it, double that number, and you have a good approximation of the number of deaths the U.S. is responsible for since WWII.
Actually you're an "American Exceptionalist" too. The difference is that you seem to think that the US is "exceptionally" bad and has had an exceptionally evil influence and impact on the world. In fact you think it is so bad that you're resorting to imaginary numbers to describe it. It is completely understandable that you turn to desperate measures if you want to deflect attention from the horror that the internationalist socialists called Communists wrecked on the world. They killed 100,000,000 peopl
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not what the GP was arguing. They were saying that if you think those who died in the WTC attacks should not be forgotten and their deaths should shape current policy towards the entire group that the criminals were part of (Muslims), then you should hold the US to the same standard.
Any by extension, you should hold the Communists to the same standard. If we do that, it's total war until everyone is dead. Fortunately most of us recognize that while the US has done bad things, every US citizen is not individually responsible or likely to be a threat to us. The US needs to recognize the same thing about individual Muslims, as this ruling does.
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You're wrong. America is made up of individual Americans paying their taxes. Catholicism is made up of individual Catholics putting money on the plate, usually poor ones, the poor fuckers. And Islam is made up of Muslims who promote a theocracy, and such institutions oppose freedom. Every individual Muslim is a problem because they are not alone. And they're potentially much more problematic than Catholics because there's a shitload of them and there's more every day.
By all means, if you want to live in a f
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Would you describe Sufism as theocracy-promoting? Or secular Islam? The fact is that there is a huge amount of diversity within was particular Muslims believe and to try to paint large groups of people with broad strokes just leads to gross inaccuracy. If you use this overgeneralization to justify prejudice... well people have used bad information to justify prejudice for a long time. We usually call them fundamentalists (fundamentalist christians, fundamentalist muslims, etc)
I'm an agnostic myself, bu
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Religions are like assholes, and everyones got one whether it's scientific research
No. Scientific research is a system of belief, but it is emphatically not a religion. That you can still get this confused indicates you don't really know what you're on about, and it's sad to see this misconception in your summary paragraph.
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Scientific research is not a religion. "Science!" can become a religion.
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There are some metaphysical/religious assumptions that must be made to trust your senses. But that's not what I'm on about neither do I mean religion as science is a religion of having an empirical way of determining knowledge... in that sense science is just a logical way to go about your business. When I refer to science as a religion I mean it as a "what's the point of doing scientific research anyways?" type of religion.
Some people get out of bed in the world with the idea of advancing human knowledge
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And - what do you do with people who do want to promulgate sharia law AND who migrate to a society that does not want to live under sharia law?
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Same thing that you do when your neighbor is in the KKK. Tolerate them as long as they respect the law. If they break the law (ie violate rights of others), their beliefs are immaterial. They can believe they are superior to other races, women, other religions, sexualities, whatever, but in the eyes of the law we are supposed to be equal.
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Islam is not a monoculture. Neither is Christianity. What two different Muslims of different traditions or backgrounds or personalities believe is radically different.
I'm stating that fundamentalism is the problem, not Islam.
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If we do that, it's total war until everyone is dead.
Hans: An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
Billy: No, it doesn't. There'll be one guy left with one eye. How's the last blind guy gonna take out the eye of the last guy left?
-- Seven Psychopaths (2012)
(j/k: Good post!)
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Informative)
Well, it is difficult to take this piece of cold war propaganda for real when its numbers are often off by a factor 50 or so. Simple example: the guesstimates of Stalin's purges run up to 100 millions (would be half of the Soviet population, if one just stops and thinks about it). After the NKVD archives were released to the public in the 1990ies, it became pretty clear, that somewhat less than a million was executed and another 500000 died due to repressions. Still a huge number, but pales in comparison of how many Soviets were killed by Nazi Germany.
Even more ironic is the fact that at any given time during Stalin's rule there were about 3 millions of Soviet citizens imprisoned, which is not really that far off the number of currently incarcerated Americans - 2.2 millions, currently the largest prison population in the whole bloody world. Land of the free my arse.
But since you are usually as full of shit as a cesspit emptier, it is no wonder you spread that crap everywhere you can.
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IIRC, the 50M are based on including the Russian famine under Stalin, and the
Violence inflicted by Americans (Score:2)
While good and evil are subjective terms, there is no doubt that the United States is the most violent nation on earth. When you consider that 90% of the indigenous peoples of the Americas died out [wikipedia.org] as a consequence of European incursion, follow through the million dead of the U.S. civil war, then culminate in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there is no doubt that we have ea
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By all estimates, the two nuclear weapons used saved more lives than they killed. It was the shock of that attack that forced a surrender that wouldn't have happened otherwise. The Japanese were willing to fight to the last man rather than surrender, and the sheer shock of the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused them to rethink that position.
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While good and evil are subjective terms, there is no doubt that the United States is the most violent nation on earth. When you consider that 90% of the indigenous peoples of the Americas died out as a consequence of European incursion,
90% of the indigenous peoples of the Americas died out as a result of diseases of the Spanish by the time of Plymouth Rock.
follow through the million dead of the U.S. civil war
it's time for you to get some perspective there, sport [wikipedia.org]
then culminate in Hiroshima and Nagasaki
I give you the firebombing of Dresden [wikipedia.org]
there is no doubt that we have earned this status.
You're going to have to get a bit more recent to justify that, I'm afraid.
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Re: sigh... (Score:2, Informative)
Korea, Vietnam, Guatemala, Panama, Nicaragua, Chile... Umm... That's off the top of my head for now, and that doesn't count the War on Terror BS either.
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Re: sigh... (Score:2, Funny)
That was Boeing's fault. They made all four of the weapons the Bush-funded terrorists used. Also, there is evidence Boeing designed the bombs that were used to take down the buildings.
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That's it, I'm flying Airbus from now on.
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because killing 2,606 in the WTC should just be forgotten.
No it should not be forgotten, because it was the excuse used to hi jack the U.S Constitution from the American people and initiate a cascade of legislative changes around the western world to protect us from something that wasn't a threat in the first place.
This is a issue of structural democracy and how we've been tricked into thinking that democracy is so fragile that we need to destroy it to stay 'safe'. Islam extremism has always been used as an excuse to take away the freedoms that built western democracies. Nothing's changed except now we have terrorism *and* laws that are make us a police state.
I don't care about being safe, I've never expected that, I expect to be free and now we are neither.
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well usa sure wants bygones be bygones with the people of one south east asian mainly christian country so why not.
besides if they apply 'surveillance' just to muslims it's only going to burn a lot of surveillance money on useless surveillance.
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well usa sure wants bygones be bygones with the people of one south east asian mainly christian country so why not.
Do you perhaps mean the Philippians which is begging us to come back and protect them from mean China?
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You have killed far more than that in retaliation. It is time to stop and finally get over it.
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Because killing 2,606 in the WTC should just be forgotten.
Because brnging sanity to how we do things is sanity... because obsessing, and citing 9-11 as an excuse for unwarranted encroachment is remembering, and not unhealthy obsession...
These mindsets are scary, and bloody idiotic to boot.
Re: sigh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Are you talking about Muslims or the Republicans?
Re: sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like the GP wants us to just forget what they did.
What do you mean by "they"?
We have no evidence that anybody who "did" that was a US citizen, and almost everyone who was responsible is dead. The few who aren't will never set foot in the United States again.
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I'm not a moderator here (obviously, since I'm posting), but speaking for myself, I want you to remember what happened on 9/11, and forget what most of the talking heads with a barrow to push have said about it [adequacy.org].
Facts, not spin.
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I'm not a moderator here (obviously, since I'm posting), but speaking for myself, I want you to remember what happened on 9/11, and forget what most of the talking heads with a barrow to push have said about it [adequacy.org].
Facts, not spin.
That right there is a link well worth following. Wish I had mod points atm.
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If you were heading off into the woods and could only afford one; bear repellent or rabbit repellent, which one would you choose?
Where I live, we don't have bears (apart from drop bears, for which there is no repellent). But assuming that you're talking about the American woods, I would choose insect repellant. Statistically, the most likely creature to kill you in the American woods are insects (e.g. hornets, yellow jackets).
Yes, we are still talking about terrorism here. Spending trillions on combatting the scariest-looking group rather than the actually-most-dangerous group is not security, it is theatre.
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Extremist Islamists is a small subset of Muslims; just like extremist Northern Ireland bombers were a small subset of Protestants and Catholic.
If Extremist Islamists are a persistent long term threat then why only relatively recently has it become a problem? We have a rise in extremist hardline sectarians all across the board really, not just in one section.
Our attempt at countering Al Qaeda has served to increase it's numbers. American goofups do more for recruitment drives than any cassette tapes that O
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Extremist Islamists is a small subset of Muslims; just like extremist Northern Ireland bombers were a small subset of Protestants and Catholic.
Yes, but every Catholic shares the guilt for child molestation because they are still funding the church that's still only hiring unmarried priests, and then relocating them when they rape children. And every Muslim shares the guilt for promoting a religion which is unremittingly theocratic. It's not the religion of peace, it's the religion of submission, and promoting it is the same as opposing religious freedom.
Muslims aren't any more culpable than Catholics. Both are shitheels.
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just like extremist Northern Ireland bombers were a small subset of Protestants and Catholic.
I would have to agree, any Protestant in Northern Ireland is a small subset, though I highly doubt the IRA would have anything to do with them as they are exclusively Catholic, and not Protestant.
Crime before the investigation (Score:5, Insightful)
So is your thinking that when facing the persistent long term threat of violent extremists Islamists (which are pretty much exclusively Muslim) dedicated to the overthrow of Western civilization that the proper course of action is to search for violent Buddhists, Lutherans, and atheists? Because, Diversity!??
I kinda' want to get back to the mode where the crime comes before the investigation, you know?
Crime's been going down [project.org], we're currently at the lowest point it's been for decades.
We're starting to get a handle on what causes crime, and it turns out to be completely unrelated to policing or enforcement or longer jail sentences or anything like that: it's things like tetra-ethyl-lead wearing out of the environment, access to abortions for unwanted pregnancies 20 years ago, economic security, and things like that.
The police seem to think it's their job to prevent crime from happening, and they're bored because they have nothing else to do, and so they take great pains to try to predict who will commit a crime and take action before it happens.
We're seeing this already in things like parallel construction, seeing which crimes can be extended to cover an action they don't like, and arresting people for "planning" to join ISIS.
On that last one: people aren't attacking America, didn't join a group that attacks America, didn't go to the country where they *could* have joined the group that attacks America, and didn't have a *plane ticket* to go to the country where they *could* have joined the group that attacks America...
and yet, posting "I'm going to join ISIS" on your facebook page is enough to get you thrown in jail in this country. It's "pre-crime" prosecution.
I kinda' want to get back to the mode where the crime comes before the investigation, you know?
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On that last one: people aren't attacking America, didn't join a group that attacks America, didn't go to the country where they *could* have joined the group that attacks America, and didn't have a *plane ticket* to go to the country where they *could* have joined the group that attacks America...
and yet, posting "I'm going to join ISIS" on your facebook page is enough to get you thrown in jail in this country. It's "pre-crime" prosecution.
Do you have any cases of this happening? I have heard of people being arrested because they try to provide material support to ISIS, when it is actually a FBI agent acting like ISIS, but not anyone being arrested for saying they want to join ISIS.
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I kinda' want to get back to the mode where the crime comes before the investigation, you know?
I broadly agree, but with one important proviso. It's an axiom of modern policing that the best time to stop a criminal is before the crime happens. But the best time to do that is before they become a criminal.
If you know of some community where there is a risk of young people entering a life of crime, what is the right thing to do? You don't wait for them to commit a crime and then nab them; that creates unnecessary victims. You could avoid creating the victim by entrapping them [theguardian.com]. That gets you a headline,
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Informative)
...which are pretty much exclusively Muslim...
You mean, when high-ranking Christians in the US come up with things like 'Muhammad was a "demon-possessed pedophile"' (Jerry Vines) and "This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand." (Pat Robertson, about Muhammed) - then they are not extremists? (from http://www.counterpunch.org/20... [counterpunch.org]).
Here, take some statistics: "Fifty-six percent of domestic terrorist attacks and plots in the U.S. since 1995 have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists, as compared to 30 percent by ecoterrorists and 12 percent by Islamic extremists. Right-wing extremism has been responsible for the greatest number of terrorist incidents in the U.S. in 13 of the 17 years since the Oklahoma City bombing." (http://www.soundvision.com/article/some-statistics-and-facts-on-right-wing-extremism-in-the-united-states)
What "understanding" do you think people lack...
Speaking of understanding, I think it is clear that you haven't got a lot of it. If you want to solve a problem - any problem - then you have to let the real facts guide you, not just the facts that suit your own bigotry. Whatever you may think a religious text has to say about anything, what really matters in the end is the person and the actions, good or bad, performed by that person. Take Buddhism, widely recognised as one of the most pacifistic religions in the world, yet in Myanmar and Thailand there are Buddhists that carry out violent attacks against those from other religions - mostly Muslims, in fact. Or look to the history Christianity for a list of the vilest atrocities you can imagine; all carried out in the name of Christ by men and sometimes women who were deeply sincere in their faith.
This is clearly not a problem of Islam or any other, single religion; it is about people and what kind of background they come from. When you grow up to learn from day one that you are a nothing, a born loser who will never, ever make it, no matter how hard you work or how honest you are, because you are somehow the 'wrong sort' and never get a real opportunity, is it any wonder that you become bitter and hate the society so full of freedoms and opportunities that you can see, but which you can never reach? And when somebody - anybody - comes along pretending to give you the respect and the hope you crave, is it strange that you are willing to follow them, even if, in the end, it implies strapping a bomb-vest on and blowing up yourself and a load of innocent people belonging to the society that never allowed you in?
We clearly can't just roll over and take it from the likes of IS, but if we want to really solve the problem, we have to realise that we, ourselves, play a major role in feeding the fire, because we are unwilling to accept the responsibility we obviously have when we let too many people at the bottom of society down.
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yes, and each individual "song" downloaded should be considered a separate offense.
statistics don't lie, but they can be phrased in so many different ways that the same data set can be used to support diametrically opposed view points.
Thanks, coward, for putting your bias up front that the data must be interpreted according to your needs to make your points.
Reality is always more complicated, but despite the screed against "precrime" posted above the US has been quite successful in stopping rightwing religi
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How many people say they are blowing things up for Jesus?
It takes more than being a Christian to be a Christian terrorist. Muslim terrorism is specifically in the name of Islam, you won't find too many Christians who claim they are blowing things up for Jesus.
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Informative)
In the past decade, right-wing extremists have killed more Americans than muslim terrorists. Do you believe we face a "persistent long term threat" from Christian fundamentalists, gun nuts and "oath-keepers"? There's your "diversity", Johnny.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06... [nytimes.com]
Re:sigh... (Score:5, Informative)
Since 9/11, the following non-islamic terrorist attacks have occurred inside the United States:
2001 anthrax attacks
2003 Ohio highway sniper attacks
2008 ELF arsons
2008 San Diego bombings
2008 Santa Cruz firebombings
2009 assassination of George Tiller
2010 IRS kamikaze attack
2010 Pentagon shooting
2010 hostage crisis
2012 Sikh temple shooting
2013 ricin letters
2013 LAX shootings
2014 Kansas City shootings
2014 Las Vegas shootings
2014 Austin consulate arson
2014 NYC police shootings
2015 Charleston shooting
Several of these were by radical Christian groups. Others had nothing to do with religion - white supremacist, anti-government and environmentalist groups seem particularly dangerous.
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gotta love the tautology...
"violent extremists Islamists (which are pretty much exclusively Muslim)"
yep. Just like "violent extremist Christianists (which are pretty much exclusively Christian)"
Or are you so stupid and uninformed that you don't understand the relationship between the words "Islam" and "Muslim"?
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Yup, exclusively christian. And also imaginary.
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And do you not think that the same could be said for most of the Muslim conflicts? Do you know anything at all about the tribal history of the middle east and how that has factored in to religious violence? There are many Arab tribes in that region using religion as a pretext for violence the most notable today is Saudi Arabian support of ISIS as a method of weakening Iraq which has been a regional rival for oil and political power. Your implication that violence in the middle east is solely due to relig
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How many white Christians have been monitored due to the activities of the Westboro baptist chuch?
Has the Westboro Baptist Church ever advocated violence? Are they considered a terrorist organization? They are surely despicable people, but they don't go around killing people they don't agree with.
How many Bostonians have been under surveillance because of their donations to the IRA?
https://answers.yahoo.com/ques... [yahoo.com]
I am not sure if anyone was ever arrested in the US for supporting the IRA, but the IRA was considered a terrorist organization, and in the UK at least, you could be arrested for supporting them.
In the particular incident being discussed, are we sure there weren't other trigg
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And if your theology advocates beheading everyone who is not of your faith?
May I just step in for a moment and cite the Christian Bible:
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Leviticus 24:16
anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.
The actual phrasing might differ depending on your translation.
It doesn't directly answer your question, but anyone who claims that the Bible is holy subscribes to a religion that advocates killing people of other religions.
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Old Testament my friend.
The Quran goes in the opposite direction of the Bible getting more violent as it progresses, as Mohammed is denied as a prophet as he trekked north from Mecca to Medina.
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Old Testament my friend.
I'm not your friend, buddy.
The Quran goes in the opposite direction of the Bible getting more violent as it progresses, as Mohammed is denied as a prophet as he trekked north from Mecca to Medina.
Well, that's a great statement and all, but where I live the worst mass murders in the last 50 years have been done by Christian fundamentalists.
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You don't live on Earth? If we're limiting ourselves to 50 years and mass murder (not war) then I'd suspect the prize goes to Pol Pot and crew. They were atheists and didn't kill in the name of their religion or lack of religion. They killed for their ideology so it's not far off but it's still not specifically religious.
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Far be it from me to defend the GP, but this question has been settled for millennia, and as such, its use as a "gotcha" point is laughably out of date.
Jews and Christians agree that if you are a Gentile, you are not subject to the laws of Moses. Instead, you are subject to the Noachide Laws [wikipedia.org] (and presumably if you are a Christian, you also follow the commandments of Jesus, but that's a separate issue). This has been mainstream Jewish thinking since the Talmud, and was also affirmed in Christianity at the Co
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So basically, you're advocating bowdlerisation.
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Old Testament my friend.
I don't see Christians lining up to throw out the OT. Too much juicy stuff in there that aligns with their existing prejudices (homosexuality, primarily).
Besides, slavery is implicitly endorsed even in the NT.
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Besides, slavery is implicitly endorsed even in the NT
That statement needs some citations. I can't see Jesus advocating slavery.
Muslims in Jersey? (Score:2)
The lawsuit claims that surveillance of Muslim people in New Jersey discriminated against them due to their religion.
What would a Jersey Muslim sound like?
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which exit?
Will NYC PD take a dive? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to wonder if Mayor de Blasio will force the NYC PD to take a dive on this suit to get a particular precedent into law like the Obama administration has done?
The would seem to be as easy method of advancing the agenda in a way hard to reverse. Of course that probably won't work out well for everyone else.
The wrong judicial circuit (Score:3)
The NYPD is WAY outside its jurisdiction here... it operates in NY under the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals, one of the most well-respected in the country.
What do you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is sort of like the Chinese complaining that counterintelligence focuses on them as being in a group that provides possible spies for China.
What do you expect? Should counterintelligence focus on Swedes instead?
Get real. You focus on where the problem is likely to be. Is that somehow "discrimination" or "unfair" or just common sense?
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When you look at crime rates or acts of terrorism, Muslims don't account for a particularly large proportion relative to the size of the Muslim population. Some Muslims were the most successful terrorists ever in the US with 9/11, but that one-time event which was mostly developed overseas isn't a good reason to start suspecting all Muslims or adding extra surveillance. Aside from anything else it's drawing resources away from all the non-Muslim terrorists and criminals who are more of a threat.
Saying to so
Re:What do you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is sort of like the Chinese complaining that counterintelligence focuses on them as being in a group that provides possible spies for China.
Replace 'Chinese' with 'Asian-Americans' and you get an analogy a bit closer to the truth. And maybe then you'll see how disturbing that is, especially considering america's fairly recent history in that regard.
What do you expect? Should counterintelligence focus on Swedes instead?
No, but perhaps they should focus on white christians, whose extremists have killed twice as many [nytimes.com] in terror attacks in the US since 9/11. I'm not sure how compliant Christian churches would be with a little 'common sense' surveillance on their premises to weed out the extremists in their midst.
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I expect that continuing to discriminate against a group will radicalize more members of that group. That's how terrorists work - by provoking over-reaction to sway the "fat middle" of moderates in their direction.
Remember the London bombings of 10 years ago? Remember how the perpetrators were caught? Their families turned them in because they knew what the bombers had done was wrong and they knew they could rely on the British to treat them humanely in spite of their crimes.
Absolutely (Score:2, Interesting)
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I'm calling bullshit on this one. Your link is to an article from 5 years ago about people's fears, with some dubious claims that have failed to come true. There are no "Muslim rape gangs running riot", there was a network of paedophiles and sex offenders that the police and social services failed to deal with, like they failed to deal with other prolific gangs of paedophiles and sex offenders of other religions and races.
I don't see an open targeting of the military either. Secret targeting perhaps, but no
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.. spout some degenerate knuckle-dragging nonsense that condemns over 1.6 billion people with a single sentence, .
You make it sound like there is a small minority when 7% on Muslims in the UK [huffingtonpost.co.uk] or about 200,000 support ISIS and 27% sympathised with the charlie hebdo and Jewish supermarket attacks [telegraph.co.uk]. I suggest you read the Qur'an some day instead of just believing the lie that it is all love and peace.
Islam early history (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course there are some Muslims who are embarrassed by this history, and merely endorse Islam because that's what they grew up in. The problem is whether we should believe what they say, or realising that Islam regards itself at war with all outsiders, justifying deceiving them, treat all denials with great scepticism. And if so, do we argue that Islam is a criminal organisation? If not, why not?
Re:Islam early history (Score:4, Insightful)
And if so, do we argue that Islam is a criminal organisation? If not, why not?
The Vatican is still relocating child molesters and you want to argue about whether Islam is a criminal organization? If Islam is, then Catholicism absolutely is; the vatican is still relocating child molesters. If we can't indict the Vatican, which is provably a single criminal organization, how the shit do you expect to convince people that all of Islam is one big criminal conspiracy?
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you are not going to get people in the US (which is also known as 'jesus land' since more americans blindly and TOTALLY follow the christian bible than believe in evolution) to fight against their chosen religion. they are blinded by brainwashing (most religious people are since they get you while you are too young to think for yourself and reject the BS) and even though you have a quite valid point - they'll never see it.
all religions do more harm than good. but mankind so loves to think that he's immor
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No, they usually follow what somebody has told them the bible says, or they cherrypick. Lots of them are against taxes, for example, after Jesus said, essentially, "Pay your taxes." (This is not always true. I had a next-door neighbor once who was that kind of Christian, was easy to get along with, and went to somewhere in Africa because he was a doctor and could really help lots of people there.)
To m
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All religions have dangerous idiots but Islam more (Score:2)
Re:Islam early history (Score:5, Informative)
You are off by nearly 1000 years, dude.
Think Charles Martel [wikipedia.org] at Tours [wikipedia.org] in 732, not John III Sobieski [wikipedia.org] at Vienna [wikipedia.org] in 1683.
Koran 9:29 (Score:3, Informative)
Koran 9:29 is one of the last non-abrogated verses of the Koran and states:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
This aya replaces pretty much everything else in Islam. It is amazing that so many Slashdotters have so many opinions on Islam without understanding some of the fundamental doctrines of Islam (which Islamists try to keep hidden from you).
Don't confuse liberals with facts (Score:2, Insightful)
Such people therefore assume that everyone else does the same to their scriptures and end up with core beliefs just like them. When they find they don't, they are forced to
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Koran 9:29 is one of the last non-abrogated verses of the Koran and states:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
This aya replaces pretty much everything else in Islam. It is amazing that so many Slashdotters have so many opinions on Islam without understanding some of the fundamental doctrines of Islam (which Islamists try to keep hidden from you).
The context of this scripture can be deduced from the last part, "until they give the jizyah". Jazyah is tax from non-Muslims living under Muslim rule (Muslims are supposed to give a different type of tax to the state). So it in fact doesn't imply fight against all non-believers, only those who do not pay the "non-Muslim" tax to a Muslim government. But, please don't let facts or logic guide you. They are just minor inconveniences.
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The same can be said for the Mafia fighting people who don't pay protection money. I'm astonished that you think this is a defense of Islam.
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well, its pretty common knowledge that the tea party is against paying taxes to the US government and think that there should be no consequence for tax dodging so I'm not surprised that people would apply the same reasoning to any other tax authority.
Of course, all of that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, Muslims or the Koran and rather more to do with their unwillingness to be a productive participant in society. But whatever.
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The same can be said for the Mafia fighting people who don't pay protection money. I'm astonished that you think this is a defense of Islam.
I'm astonished that you think I'm defending Islam. Being the nerd that I am, only pointing at the inaccuracy of the parent's post.
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You mean like "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"?
Re:Koran 9:29 (Score:4, Informative)
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This isn't any different from, well, the entire OT, or quite a bit of the NT, including Revelations.
Yes, you're absolutely correct. But a significant percentage of the terrorism which happens within our borders today is already motivated by religion, and Christians have racked up some truly impressive body counts in the name of their allegedly peace-loving God. Is that really what we want to encourage? I'm very far from racist and I give a shit where someone comes from, it's all the same to me, it's what they believe that makes a difference in how they act and how they treat other people. I don't particul
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Sure, there's lots of religiously motivated violence, but then again, there's lots of non-religiously motivated violence.
Somebody who's willing to blow up a building in the name of Allah, God, Jesus, or the FSM is just as likely to blow up that building in the name of freeing the proletariat, exposing the lies of the secret lizard overlords, or whatever. I think that religion is generally an excuse, rather than a causal factor. I could, however, be completely wrong.
Politically Correctness will doom us (Score:3)
Why pick on Muslim people? (Score:2)
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Citation Needed. The UK has had more anti-Muslim terrorist attacks since 2010 than Islamist ones. There's been nearly as many Irish Catholic terrorist attacks since my birth as there have been years (~30) and 4 by Islamic Extremists; but good old fashioned racism and fear of people who are different means that whereas we stuck our fingers up at the IRA, carried on with our lives and continued to trust white people even if they were Irish or Cat
Re:Surveillance beats bloodshed (Score:5, Informative)
> we stuck our fingers up at the IRA, carried on with our lives and continued to trust white people even if they were Irish or Catholic
(Northern) Irish Protestant here. The above statement isn't entirely true.
All within my own lifetime:
- White Irish Catholics were interned without trial (like Guantanamo) - citation [historyireland.com]
- They were tortured - citation [wikipedia.org]
- They were falsely accused and imprisoned - citation [wikipedia.org]
- Their legal representation was targeted by state actors - citation [wikipedia.org]
- There was a "shoot to kill" policy in place for Irish terrorism - citation [wikipedia.org]
- Civil rights marches (that included protestants) were attacked by state forces - citation [wikipedia.org]
I'm not attempting to justify the IRA's campaign, nor even comment upon its legitimacy.
I do want to point out though, that profiling is (and probably always has been) used in these sort of scenarios (for right or for wrong).
Inter arma enim silent leges.
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There is a lot of overlap, and neither Islamists nor Muslims are willing to help us differentiate the two groups.
It's true that there is an overlap; indeed, one is a proper subset of the other. However, there's a far bigger overlap between Muslims and "us". If you are killed by as Islamist terrorist, there is a roughly 90% chance that you are a Muslim [nctc.gov].
But here's the question I want you to answer: What could mainstream Muslims possibly do to help "us"?
Well, they could report suspicious behaviour. Do you know what happens when they do that? The people who do do the reporting get surveilled and threatened with deportatio [thisamericanlife.org]
Re: Surveillance beats bloodshed (Score:4, Informative)
Which religious group are you talking about that has a 1500 year history of "leaving you the fuck alone"?
It sure [wikipedia.org] isn't [wikipedia.org] Islam [wikipedia.org].
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Did you fall asleep in history class?