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Europe Agrees To Agree With Everyone Except US What 5G Should Be 164

itwbennett writes: Following agreements signed by the EU with South Korea in June 2014 and with Japan in May 2015, the EU and China "have agreed to agree by the end of the year on a working definition for 5G," reports Peter Sayer. "About the only point of agreement so far is that 5G is what we'll all be building or buying after 4G, so any consensus between the EU and China could be significant," says Sayer.
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Europe Agrees To Agree With Everyone Except US What 5G Should Be

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  • by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @02:31PM (#50614651)
    The United States will accept the standard when the rest of the world ditches that stupid metric system and go back to real units.
    • Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)

      The United States will accept the standard when the rest of the world ditches that stupid metric system and go back to real units.

      You mean European units?
      Either way, metric or imperial, the units came from Europe. The internationally standardized units are the SI units and the US is signed up to that. It is what engineers of many disciplines use since it's the standard.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Other than the road signs, lumber sizes (2x4s, etc.) and gun calibers, I don't know any real measurements in the US that have not moved to metric. My vehicle's engine is measured in liters, the torque I use to tighten down bolts is newton-meters, Pressure inflating air bag suspension is in PSI and kPa, and so on. Even the bottle of meth-mouth soda-pop is a 2 liter bottle, not a half gallon size.

        The US is going metric... only thing left are just road signs and eventually those will go into both miles and k

        • by slew ( 2918 )

          Other than the road signs, lumber sizes (2x4s, etc.) and gun calibers, I don't know any real measurements in the US that have not moved to metric. My vehicle's engine is measured in liters, the torque I use to tighten down bolts is newton-meters, Pressure inflating air bag suspension is in PSI and kPa, and so on. Even the bottle of meth-mouth soda-pop is a 2 liter bottle, not a half gallon size.

          The US is going metric... only thing left are just road signs and eventually those will go into both miles and kilometers... hopefully dropping miles for good eventually.

          FWIW, the UK has something to say about those pesky road signs [wikipedia.org]...

          We already tried once before [wikipedia.org] ~1975, maybe we in the US should wait to see how it turns out in the UK before trying again...

          Oh yeah, gasoline just dropped under $3/gallon and it's about 65 degrees F here as I type this, so it's a bit too cold to go to the beach. Maybe I should use some frequent flier miles** I got on my last Luftansa fight [miles-and-more.com] to go to a real beach in Greece. Yesterday, I threw back a few pints while watching my football team p

          • by mrvan ( 973822 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @05:04PM (#50615781)

            ** or is that knots?

            My dear Sir, miles are a distance unit and knots a speed unit: a knot is a (nautical) mile per hour.

            Interestingly, while imperial miles originate in a "biometric" (roman miles were 1000 two-pace steps), nautical miles fit very well in the "geometric" spirit of the SI: a nautical mile is one minute of arc measured along any meridian, ie the distance between the poles is 180×60 = 10,800 NM. The meter was originally defined as 1/10,000 of the distance between the equator and the pole, so these definitions are quite close. Although the definition of both the NM and the m have changed a bit as they were standardized, the international definition of 1NM=1852m is pretty darn close to the expected 20,000 / 10,800 = 1851.85m.

            Note that as a European I use metric exclusively: for me, a pound is 500g and an ounce is 100g, and a cup is something I put coffee in. That is, until I step foot on a sailing boat, when suddenly the only units that makes sense are knots and miles. Metric is for landlubbers, I guess :)

            • A 100g "ounce" is much larger than the American ounce. The actual number is 28g, but your "pound" is also larger so a 30g "ounce" might make more sense and would be a rounder number.
          • by jrumney ( 197329 )
            In some places in UK at least, short distances are indicated in metres, and longer distances in miles. Often both abbreviated to 'm', which makes for some amusing signposts (I recall some along the canal towpaths in central Birmingham: "National Sea Life Centre 150m, Wolverhampton 16m" or something like that)
        • PSI is not metric.
        • by Eythian ( 552130 )

          Other than the road signs, lumber sizes (2x4s, etc.) and gun calibers

          Even then, I hear the 9mm is pretty popular over there.

        • You forgot weather measurements. Barometric pressure KiloPascals, Wind or other speed Km/h and temperature in Celcius.

        • There are some other vestiges of non-metric units. Notably, many products in the US and intended mostly for the domestic market are still built with non-metric hardware. Things made for export generally are not.
    • by myowntrueself ( 607117 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @02:57PM (#50614865)

      The United States will accept the standard when the rest of the world ditches that stupid metric system and go back to real units.

      You mean Freedom Units!

    • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

      by nytes ( 231372 )

      If they weren't on the metric system, 5G would be more like 16.4G.

      Just imagine the speed!

    • by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:04PM (#50614925) Homepage

      You joke, but what really happens is the US carriers have decided "we'll call it whatever we like for marketing purposes". Which means someone comes along, defines a standard, and then US carriers co-opt the name and say "yup, we have that", when in reality they don't have that.

      This has nothing to do with metric, and everything to do with US corporations saying "Yeah, we totally have 4G", except it's not really 4G, it's some marketing term which has nothing to do with 4G.

      So, you know, stop letting your companies take the name of a specific bit of technology and say they're using it when they aren't. Then you won't have the problem of the US glaringly not running the technology they claim.

      But, apparently, part of corporate free speech is mis-representing your service to your customers.

      • If I were them, I'd just say fuck it and start advertising 6G services. At least that way no standards body can claim that they're wrong or lying.
      • Except the two "4G" technologies and marketing that don't meet the 4G standard didn't come from U.S. carriers, they came from European and Asian carriers, who then pressured ITU-R into accepting that marketing as 4G even though it didn't meet the standard.

        So, sorry to spoil your U.S. Americorp conspiracy, but we were late to the party on that bullshit.
        • You seem to be confused, it was definitely the US. Only one carrier wanted to push real 4G. The others thought there was more value in monetizing smaller increases in bandwidth, the opposition was led by AT&T who is usually first in line to fight bandwidth increases.
        • Except the two "4G" technologies and marketing that don't meet the 4G standard didn't come from U.S. carriers, they came from European and Asian carriers, who then pressured ITU-R into accepting that marketing as 4G even though it didn't meet the standard.

          So, sorry to spoil your U.S. Americorp conspiracy, but we were late to the party on that bullshit.

          Nope. The technology comes from Europe, but in Europe it was called 3.5G, only in the US was it marketed at 4G.

      • I like the Australian carriers who just make up shit to make it sound better even though it isn't.

        Case in point Telstra: 4GX The fastest 4G speeds in Australia. In reality it's just another frequency band added to their spectrum. It's still the same 4G speed.
        Better case Optus: 4G Plus. Also claims they are the fastest. Also just another band, but not to be confused with 4G+ in Korea or 4G+ in Europe which is actually different from 4G and offers double the bandwidth.

        On that note. Why would the thing after 4

        • by jrumney ( 197329 )

          Why would the thing after 4G be called 5G? As far as I know I already have the thing after 4G, it's called 4G+.

          And like 3.5G, it will inevitably be called 5G by marketers anyway once the first competitor launches a real 5G network and others don't want to look like they are behind.

      • You joke, but what really happens is the US carriers have decided "we'll call it whatever we like for marketing purposes".

        What's even worse is that with 4G, the US managed to force the ITU to redefine the 4G standard to allow the US's not-really-4G to be called 4G anyway.

      • You joke, but what really happens is the US carriers have decided "we'll call it whatever we like for marketing purposes". Which means someone comes along, defines a standard, and then US carriers co-opt the name and say "yup, we have that", when in reality they don't have that.

        This has nothing to do with metric, and everything to do with US corporations saying "Yeah, we totally have 4G", except it's not really 4G, it's some marketing term which has nothing to do with 4G.

        So, you know, stop letting your companies take the name of a specific bit of technology and say they're using it when they aren't. Then you won't have the problem of the US glaringly not running the technology they claim.

        But, apparently, part of corporate free speech is mis-representing your service to your customers.

        4G just means 4th Generation and is not a specific technology. So whatever technology a company puts in place to replace 3G, that is 4G.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • good (Score:5, Funny)

    by hjf ( 703092 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @02:32PM (#50614667) Homepage

    The US will build their OWN 5G network. With Blackjack. And hookers.
    In fact, forget compatibility.

    The US will adopt a closed standard, with royalties, that will work only in the US. That'll keep the eurotrash out.

    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      The US will build their OWN 5G network. With Blackjack. And hookers.
      In fact, forget compatibility.

      The US will adopt a closed standard, with royalties, that will work only in the US. That'll keep the eurotrash out.

      And the only smartphones available for sale in the USA will be iPhones. Apple will trumpet their growth and market domination. Samsung will breath a sigh of relief that they don't have to even bother selling phones in the USA cos of Apples injunctions. The rest of the world will be happy and the USA will be a lovely walled garden of 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

      • Ummm... wtf. Did you just curse people of the US to be stuck with IPhones despite most of us picking androids? That cold, cold and cruel.

        Apple tech is definitely more appropriate for socialist communist mentality with a central authority deciding what is best for everyone. Android is the wild wild west of the mobile OS world and everyone has the right to bear arms. If anything the US would definitely be android and Europe would be the bastion of the IPhone. If Apple isn't the phone counterpart to the BBC I
        • Ummm... wtf. Did you just curse people of the US to be stuck with IPhones despite most of us picking androids? That cold, cold and cruel.

          Apple tech is definitely more appropriate for socialist communist mentality with a central authority deciding what is best for everyone. Android is the wild wild west of the mobile OS world and everyone has the right to bear arms. If anything the US would definitely be android and Europe would be the bastion of the IPhone. If Apple isn't the phone counterpart to the BBC I don't know what is.

          You'd think so but with the injunctions on behalf of Apple against Samsung you might find that no one wants to sell you android phones any more :P

    • Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Noryungi ( 70322 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:00PM (#50614895) Homepage Journal

      The US will adopt a closed standard, with royalties, that will work only in the US. That'll keep the eurotrash out.

      Yup, and you will keep on paying 10x more than anywhere else in the world.

      The US is becoming more and more irrelevant each step along the way.

      • Re:good (Score:4, Insightful)

        by halivar ( 535827 ) <bfelgerNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:14PM (#50615003)

        In the long list of things that can and should make a country irrelevant, the cost of a phone plan is pretty much... not there.

        • I suspect Google would disagree. They've been putting lots of effort into getting everyone a decent Internet connection and more and more of that is mobile nowadays.
        • The cost of access to communication and exchange with the rest of the people in the world? Are you kidding or just being deliberately obtuse? Phone links are today what highways were to Ancient Rome.

          Slow broadband and reduced connectivity is absolutely what will make a country irrelevant in time just as roads made Rome great and Infrastructure once made the US great.
        • by Uberbah ( 647458 )

          In the long list of things that can and should make a country irrelevant, the cost of a phone plan is pretty much... not there.

          To borrow Clinton's line about the economy...it's the rent-seeking, stupid.

          Wireless carriers are but the tip of the capitalist iceberg. Other useless rent-seekers and middle men: banks, health insurance companies, university management, defense contractors....

        • In the long list of things that can and should make a country irrelevant, the cost of a phone plan is pretty much... not there.

          Cost of communications, not to mention the related access to the Internet, enables productivity, informal education, access to employment, etc. so no, it is on that list.

          Aside from this, the US is not impressing anyone with things that you might agree are important like infant mortality (34th globally), medical care per dollar spent (worst in the world), student debt (worst in the world), percentage of the population in prison (second highest in the world), percentage of the population with a university lev

      • As an American, this pisses me off that we now break the economies of scale in terms of equipment. Fuck! Fine, the US should adopt their standard. Question is, does it contain any EU or Chinese backdoors??! Would the US system contain any NSA backdoors for that matter????

        • Like it really matters in the US - it's just a technology to blow through your arbitrarily apportioned data that much faster, so they can rape you for overages.

      • As a Canadian, I have to agree with the statement, "The US is becoming less relevant daily" Where we used to buy our electronics from the USA, we no longer do. Where we used to watch American TV, we no longer do as much, and we rarely buy an American made vehicle. Even our stuff from IKEA is in metric, for metric built homes (Our new home ceilings are 3 meters high, which is about 3*40 inches or 10feet.

        The USA is now a huge service oriented country. Manufacturing and even software engineering is done of

    • Re:good (Score:4, Insightful)

      by nytes ( 231372 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:07PM (#50614953) Homepage

      It will be decided on by the telcos. It will be something that can be achieved inexpensively and yield maximum profits. It will grant a minor speed bump for us in the USA, while giving the telcos an excuse for doubling consumer costs.

      And it won't be remotely as fast as "5G" anywhere else in the world.

    • by tchdab1 ( 164848 )

      Bah - skip 5, like we skipped 4, and go straight to 6G. Or a reasonably marketed facsimile of 6G.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by shaitand ( 626655 )
      Their women can come. We really only want to keep out the eurotrash dudes. If only we could buid some sort of one way selective female membrane that lets them in but not out.
    • That's fine & dandy, but please make IPv6 the standard Layer 3 protocol for this standard, and keep IPv4 out altogether
  • by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @02:32PM (#50614669)

    Buzzword.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Since there are not even any actual 4G deployments in the United States yet, it will be a while before 5G even matters, if it ever does.

    Yay Capitalism! Yesteryear's technology at outrageous prices.

  • > "About the only point of agreement so far is that 5G is what we'll all be building or buying after 4G..."
    I was going to comment on how obvious and unnecessary the "5G comes after 4G" thing is, but then I remembered Windows 9 and and OS-X "saber-tooth tiger" and realized that with technology, the succession isn't necessarily that obvious.

    • > "About the only point of agreement so far is that 5G is what we'll all be building or buying after 4G..." I was going to comment on how obvious and unnecessary the "5G comes after 4G" thing is, but then I remembered Windows 9 and and OS-X "saber-tooth tiger" and realized that with technology, the succession isn't necessarily that obvious.

      Guess you forgot about 2.5G as well.

    • You think OS X and Windows 7, 8, 8.1, 10 are bad?
      Ubuntu and Android release name are like Game of Thrones.

    • It's a tick tock thing. We all know that the even numbered Gs are major releases and the odd, minor. So 5G will be 4G+, wait for 6G and it'll be much better.

    • With an aloe strip of course.

  • Because most of us in the USA are pretty much retarded.

    Standards? screw that, we need to make sure XXX or YYY get's the most profit.

    • Tell that to T-Mobile parent Deutsche Telekom, or Sprint's parent Softbank (Japan). Or, for that matter, until last year Verizon's 50% owner Vodafone. I don't think Americans are to blame here.

  • what do the Euros think it is?
  • 4G cores will be upgraded to server 5G radio networks.

    The nice thing about the 3GPP spec is that Packet Cores are an evolution from 3G to 4G and most likely to 5G.

    The US will follow the ITU and 3GPP spec because that is what the device manufacturers will be following for the new handsets. Any other prediction is just there for click bait.

  • Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jtownatpunk.net ( 245670 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:06PM (#50614943)

    Increased speed is pointless if they keep choking it with ridiculously low caps. "Oh, wow. I can hit my monthly cap in 19.3 seconds."

  • by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:13PM (#50614985)
    From TFA:

    China and the European Union have agreed to agree by the end of the year on a working definition for 5G, perhaps the most overused and least understood term in mobile telecommunications.

    About the only point of agreement so far is that 5G is what we'll all be building or buying after 4G, so any consensus between the EU and China could be significant.
    [...]
    The standards bodies that defined 3G and 4G for us, the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) and the 3G Patent Partnership (3GPP), are more measured in their approach.

    The ITU plans to decide on its own name for 5G next month. That's likely to be International Mobile Telecommunications system 2020, for the year by which it expects the first equipment will go on sale. It won't get around to choosing a technical standard until February of that year, though.

    Around December, 3GPP plans to start a six-month study of the requirements for 5G radio access networks, with a view to submitting a proposed standard to ITU in early 2020.

    That slow-but-steady approach makes Monday's 5G agreement between officials from the European Commission and from China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology seem almost hasty.
    [...]
    Neither agreement constitutes an end run around the ITU or 3GPP, though, as the EU, China and South Korea also agreed to promote global standardization in support of the work being done by those two bodies.

    In other words, two government bodies which have nothing to do with the actual 5G standard have agreed to agree what 5G is (that is, they won't support different standards). The actual standard itself hasn't been set, and the two bodies which actually do make the standard don't plan to set it until 2020.

    Was the whole point of this submission to take a shot at the U.S.? Need I remind you that had the U.S. signed up for the GSM standard, CDMA would've been stillborn and we would likely have 50-200 kbps data speeds today. GSM used TDMA, which allocates bandwidth to phones which aren't even using it. CDMA allows all phones to transmit simultaneously, and bandwidth gets distributed evenly between all transmitting phones. CDMA worked so well that by the time 3G rolled around, GSM adopted CDMA (it now uses TDMA only for voice) and nearly every GSM phone in the world also packed a wideband CDMA radio for data. That's right, CDMA won the GSM vs CDMA war. That's why you could talk and use data at the same time on a GMS phone - they had a TDMA radio for voice, a wCDMA radio for data. CDMA phones used the same radio for both, just in different modes.

    (And if you're curious, most LTE implementations use OFDMA. Mathematically it's a lot like CDMA, except using orthogonal frequencies instead of orthogonal codes. The orthogonality is what allows you to pick out a specific phone's signal even though all phones are transmitting simultaneously. The transmissions from other phones just increases the noise floor, so a phone that's not transmitting decreases the noise floor, everyone else's signal to noise ratio improves, and the bandwidth the non-transmitting phone would've used is distributed equally among the phones which are transmitting. TDMA is just giving each phone a timeslice, so only one phone can transmit at a time - or not transmit if it didn't actually need the timeslice.)

    • "Was the whole point of this submission to take a shot at the U.S.?"

      Yeah, pretty much.

      Slashdot is a pretty provincial, chauvinistic and bigoted publication... as long as these qualities are directed in an anti-US manner.

      Basically, if the Slashdot crowd looked at itself in the mirror, the the ugly bigoted and uninformed face it would see staring back at it would look surprisingly close to the stereotyped caricatures that it pretends only apply to those evil "Muricans".

      • by PopeRatzo ( 965947 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @03:57PM (#50615295) Journal

        Slashdot is a pretty provincial, chauvinistic and bigoted publication... as long as these qualities are directed in an anti-US manner.

        I get the feeling Slashdot is provincial, but in the sense that their province is the basement and they hate everyone outside it.

        Me, I only hate Australia because they have death adders and kangaroo, who are not at all cute and cuddly. They're mean and they just want to kick your ass all the time.

        Europe, US, South America, Asia. As long as I can get a decent meal, they're all OK in my book. But you can't get a decent meal in Australia, unless by "decent meal" you mean getting bitten by death adders and your ass kicked by a surly kangaroo. Even koalas you can't trust. They're cute until you get close enough for them to pull a death adder out of their marsupial sack and then it's your ass.

        No sir. I do not like Australia.

        • Last time I was in Oz, I made friends with several kangaroos and an emu. Emus are cool.

          They also have the world's best pies [fredopies.com.au].

          • They also have the world's best pies [fredopies.com.au].

            They don't tell you there are death adders in the pies.

    • (And if you're curious, most LTE implementations use OFDMA. Mathematically it's a lot like CDMA, except using orthogonal frequencies instead of orthogonal codes. The orthogonality is what allows you to pick out a specific phone's signal even though all phones are transmitting simultaneously.

      That's really not at all true. Here [wikipedia.org]. OFDMA just increases the usable frequency range for FDMA, which splits users into different bands (channels). In CDMA all users take a lot of bandwidth and the receiver filters them out using codes or somesuch.

    • by Kjella ( 173770 )

      In other words, two government bodies which have nothing to do with the actual 5G standard have agreed to agree what 5G is (that is, they won't support different standards). The actual standard itself hasn't been set, and the two bodies which actually do make the standard don't plan to set it until 2020. Was the whole point of this submission to take a shot at the U.S.?

      Well I'm hoping the idea is that we can use as much as possible of the same frequency bands and phone hardware all across the world. In that respect, 5 years is actually a very short time if you need to free up a frequency band for use even if it's obscure.

    • Need I remind you that had the U.S. signed up for the GSM standard, CDMA would've been stillborn and we would likely have 50-200 kbps data speeds today

      Um, wat? You think the designers of UMTS were incapable of understanding the different radio technologies because they weren't born in America? CDMA was invented by the Soviets, you know.

      GSM and its upgrades stomped the mobile phone system called CDMA for all kinds of reasons, one of them being that GSM had the concept of a SIM card and CDMA did not, so GSM

    • Need I remind you that had the U.S. signed up for the GSM standard, CDMA would've been stillborn and we would likely have 50-200 kbps data speeds today.

      Are you under the delusion that just because the USA doesn't support something that progress stops and people abandon all efforts and R&D for improvement?

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Mod parent wrong? About everything? The CDMA technology in UMTS is based on the Japanese standard FOMA, which only came slightly after IS-95 and was developed while most US phones were still analog. UMTS does not use 2G GSM TDMA for voice, but runs voice over the same W-CDMA interface as data. It can do both because the air interface can interleave multiple communications streams (i.e. the protocols are better designed). There are many carriers with some or all coverage only in W-CDMA UMTS that have no 2G G

    • Need I remind you that had the U.S. signed up for the GSM standard, CDMA would've been stillborn and we would likely have 50-200 kbps data speeds today.

      That seems unlikely. You are confusing IS-95 (a.k.a. CdmaOne), the CDMA based 2G standard with the concept of CDMA (code division multiple access) which was first invented in 1935, in Soviet Russia. IS-95 was superior in a number of ways (though also inferior in a number of others). However, I think it's a massive stretch to conclude that if the US adopted

  • Would you rather buy a G5 phone Made in the USA(TM) or Made in China? I wonder how long it takes to destroy one's reputation.

    • We'll have to wait for the Donald to be prez before things like this get made in the US again
  • by jacks smirking reven ( 909048 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @04:23PM (#50615457)
    Carriers: The numbers all go to 5G. Look, right across the board, 5G, 5G, 5G and...
    Customers: Oh, I see. And most networks go up to 4G?
    Carriers: Exactly.
    Customers: Does that mean it's faster? Is it any faster?
    Carriers: Well, it's one faster, isn't it? It's not 4G. You see, most blokes, you know, will be surfing at 4G. You're on 4G here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on 4G on your phone. Where can you go from there? Where?
    Customers: I don't know.
    Carriers: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
    Customers: Put it up to 5G.
    Carriers: 5G. Exactly. One faster.
    Customers: Why don't you just make 4G faster and make 4G be the top number and make that a little faster?
    Carriers: [pause] These go to 5G.
  • by frovingslosh ( 582462 ) on Monday September 28, 2015 @04:57PM (#50615705)
    Wouldn't it be simpler and less confusing if you just reported the truth in simple terms: The U.S. telecom industry has decided to continue to screw up standards and make sure that their next generation equipment does not work with the rest of the world and likely not work with each other. Sprint has picked three different incompatible standards and will deploy all three and challenges its customers to guess which will still be supported the following year (while locking them into two year contracts but .phasing out their supported type of supposed 5G in much less time in their area). Prices will go up.
  • If they don't agree with us, they must be wrong!
  • by Misagon ( 1135 ) on Tuesday September 29, 2015 @05:37AM (#50618503)

    I have a 7G mobile hanging in my window. That is seven G's! Two more than this 5G and at least THREE MORE than what most people have.

    I added a small bell to balance them to eight items. I had used a pre-made mobile ring with eight holes around the circumference and was too lazy to measure and drill seven new ones for the strings. But when the window is open, and the wind catches the G's in the mobile, the bell hanging from the ring rings.
    People have asked me if I could also talk into it: of course I can, but I don't see the point.

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