Hertz Puts Cameras In Its Rental Cars, Says It Has No Plans To Use Them 188
schwit1 writes Hertz has added a camera to many of its newer cars that uses the "NeverLost" navigational device. So why is Hertz creeping out customers with cameras it's not using? "Hertz added the camera as a feature of the NeverLost 6 in the event it was decided, in the future, to activate live agent connectivity to customers by video. In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)," Hertz spokesperson Evelin Imperatrice explained. "The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."
Why don't i believe them (Score:5, Insightful)
"The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."
So we're to believe hertz put the cameras there for no reason other than to hurt their business by scaring away customers, because may be someday they may want them?
Re:Why don't i believe them (Score:5, Insightful)
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There's no way they did that without planning on using them for something, and that something wouldn't be a vague might happen kind of thing either, but a concrete we "need" this from the higher ups.
Have you ever attended a meeting? One where decisions were made? Why do you think that Hertz is less dysfunctional at planning and making logical and well thought out decisions than your organization?
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Re:Why don't i believe them (Score:4, Insightful)
When planning a project or choosing a strategy, risk must be assessed. Risks come as both threats and opportunities.
You can handle a threat in many ways: Avoid, by taking actions which do not allow for that particular risk; Mitigate, by taking actions which minimize the probability or severity of the risk; Transfer, by purchasing insurance to cover the risk; or Accept, by budgeting for the risk. You can similarly handle an opportunity: Exploit, by taking actions to 100% guarantee that particular risk will occur; Enhance, by taking actions to increase the probability that the risk will occur; Share, by taking actions with a third-party that increase probability of the risk occurring, but share the benefit with another party (lottery pool); or Accept, by doing nothing and hoping it happens.
With many plans on the table, you often have to select which risks to accept in exchange for opportunities to enhance. Adding extra, unused hardware for a possible future strategy can save you from missing out on that strategy, or from higher expenses to add the hardware later.
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When planning a project or choosing a strategy, risk must be assessed. Risks come as both threats and opportunities.
I am sure that this is what they teach in MBA programs. It has little to do with how real people make decisions in real organizations. I doubt if the cameras are part of a vast conspiracy. It is far more likely that someone came up with the idea for no particular reason, and while others thought it was hare brained, they went along with it to avoid losing support in some other idiotic bike shed argument [wikipedia.org].
For some reason people accept that their own team or small department can be dysfunctional at decision
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I am sure that this is what they teach in MBA programs. It has little to do with how real people make decisions in real organizations.
What are you talking about? I don't have an MBA, dropped out of college for CompSci because I was working as a computer security engineer, and I make decisions like that in real organizations. People don't listen to me, million-dollar problems happen, I continuously grind on them for not listening to me when I warned them, and they eventually get it through their heads that they shouldn't just do whatever the hell seems cool at the time.
but somehow as organizations get bigger and bigger they magically figure out how to be competent.
No, this is why we have project management, and project managers w
Way too much credit (Score:3, Insightful)
Even if someone higher up at Hertz had a devious plan to install these cameras into every vehicle and covertly film all their customers, there is no way in hell that any rental car company I know of could implement such a system. Most of the time they can barely get you the car you supposedly booked for the price you were quoted. I once got stuck in a huge mismanaged queue at Avis for an hour and when I finally got to the front they told me a car was not available. When I said I had booked one so how could
Re:Way too much credit (Score:5, Informative)
Even if someone higher up at Hertz had a devious plan to install these cameras into every vehicle and covertly film all their customers, there is no way in hell that any rental car company I know of could implement such a system. Most of the time they can barely get you the car you supposedly booked for the price you were quoted.
I've never had a problem getting the rate I was quoted. It's common that they are out of the particular car class I ordered, but that's to be expected, they don't have unlimited room to store each of a dozen car classes. They've always either upgraded me for "free" (except that the upgraded car often uses more gas, so it's not really "free", but I've had good luck talking them into giving me a Hybrid when that happens if they have one available), or gave me a discount for a downgraded car.
I once got stuck in a huge mismanaged queue at Avis for an hour and when I finally got to the front they told me a car was not available. When I said I had booked one so how could this be, the customer service person informed me that I was half an hour late so if I wanted to ensure I got a car I should turn up on time.
Rental agencies overbook just like the airlines, but it's harder for them to ensure supply when people don't return cars on time, at least an airline knows that they can seat 300 people on a 300 person aircraft, the rental agency isn't sure if they'l have 0 or 50 cars on the lot by the time you get there because some people may be late, or they may have sent a lot of cars on one-way trips. It's a tough logistical problem.
I also have no idea why my collecting a car I have booked requires so much typing on their behalf. It is like they are writing a short dissertation on me, every time I rent a car. Surely if I rent another car the same month the amount of typing can be reduced. I have caught a glimpse of their green character based IT terminals and I am pretty certain there is no secret skunk works at Hertz HQ working on anything other than more confusing ways to charge collision damage waivers.
If you rent a car regularly, sign up for the rental agency's premier club. When I used to travel a lot, my company rented from Avis and Hertz almost exclusively, I was in both of their permier rental programs, and when I got to the car lot I could just find the car with my name on it, and drive away, showing my ID to the guy at the gate. The other advantage is that my premier reserved car is *always* there, even if they have to turn away other customers to make sure the car is there.
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I am not going to use Hertz again.
In the past, one paid extra for the convenience of an on-airport car-rental location and perhaps a nicer bus. Now, all the car rental locations are in the same building (unless you are using a small, local company) and at some (many) airports, the busses are also pooled. So the primary advantage of Hertz is gone for me.
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The other thing is that most of the efficiency from the poibnt of view of the customer is down to the local management of that rental location. Well managed places will zip you through, badly places won't.
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They could have considered a future business opportunity at a cost of some dollars per car, versus the cost of missing the opportunity, versus the cost of a future retrofit, and decided to exploit the opportunity. Opportunities are risks, and are handled accordingly.
Re:Why don't i believe them (Score:4, Interesting)
"The camera feature has not been launched, cannot be operated and we have no current plans to do so."
So we're to believe hertz put the cameras there for no reason other than to hurt their business by scaring away customers, because may be someday they may want them?
I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that their hardware manufacturer has been marching forward and may have added the camera to the "latest" model and Hertz is just buying the hardware off the shelf from them. The camera may have some prospective future use which has not been fully defined, but the main reason it's there is it came with the off the shelf hardware. Getting something without a camera may now be more expensive, at least something with the other features they want/need like more memory, better CPU's and more storage.
Custom hardware is insanely expensive to develop and it's way cheaper to go off the shelf in most cases and if the off the shelf offering has a camera, you get a camera. It's not like Hertz is buying these things by the tens of thousands, but likely only a few hundred a month in specific high volume markets to replace older and ailing units as they come out of service.
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I for one lost my blind trust of the american corporation years ago. but good for you its nice to see some haven't
Re:Why don't i believe them (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's not a conspiracy to be put off by someone installing a camera in a space that one typically expects a degree of privacy.
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Re:Why don't i believe them (Score:4, Interesting)
The only instances I recall of a company lying about surveillance have involved them behaving in an entirely covert, non-obvious (am I being redundant, here?), manner, with the idea that, by drawing no attention, they would not be found out. This is the antithesis of that. I'll let you put that together for yourself.
What's the quickest way to go out of business today? Tell customers you're not spying on them, then spy on them anyway. People are very much apathetic when it comes to security (a-la "oops, we didn't realize the data we told you we were collecting and sending over the internet could be read by anyone), but not so much when it comes to targeted surveillance of themselves and their families, so lying about this at this juncture would would be Hertz's death knell.
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Hah.. that's exactly what I've done. I have an AppleTV just because I've already got a pretty large iTunes library. When I wanted my current TV, I got a Samsung "Smart" one, only because it was the one of the size, quality and price I wanted. I played with the "smart" stuff for a few minutes, then basically never touched it again.
Damn good as a TV... beyond useles
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Using electrical tape is much less likely to get you arrested for vandalism.
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Hertz added the camera as a feature of the NeverLost 6 in the event it was decided, in the future, to activate live agent connectivity to customers by video. In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)
In other words, "we don't plan to use this, but if we do at some point, which we may and we're being up front about that right now, the user would have to be the one to activate it". I choose not to be afraid of every grain of sand, so I'm gonna go ahead and believe them until they give me a reason not to.
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In that plan the customer would have needed to turn on the camera by pushing a button (while stationary)
What's your point, AC?
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The only instances I recall of a company lying about surveillance have involved them behaving in an entirely covert, non-obvious (am I being redundant, here?), manner, with the idea that, by drawing no attention, they would not be found out.
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If the cameras are even in use, sounds more like something for car thieves to steal and the car renter to be on the hook for (or their insurance company...)
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should be "if the cameras aren't yet even in use"
Duct tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Funny)
Or get a banana with a sticker on it. Eat the banana, and put the sticker over the camera.
Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Funny)
But I don't like bananas :(
Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Funny)
But I don't like bananas :(
Well. Tough luck. To be a privacy conscious person, one has to eat bananas.
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If you've got nothing to hide using bananas, you've got nothing to fear?
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To rent a car from Hertz with camera in it, one has to BE bananas.
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Orange you glad Sunkist citrus products have stickers, then?
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Wrap aluminum foil around the camera
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Just to be sure, better to wrap the whole car in aluminium foil.
Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Funny)
or put a picture from another car of all the passengers and the driver with their hands in the air screaming in terror in front of the lens....
Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Interesting)
I use regular cellophane tape. It is opaque enough to destroy the image, clear enough not to be exactly sure why. Looks like a heavy smudge of grease/oil, like you touched it while eating fries or something.
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I use regular cellophane tape. It is opaque enough to destroy the image, clear enough not to be exactly sure why. Looks like a heavy smudge of grease/oil, like you touched it while eating fries or something.
Just remember to remove it before starting a video conference, otherwise the rest of the participants will start complaining about a poor connection.
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Probably works better when the tape is further from the camera, and suspended in air for a bigger difference in refactive indices, as it would be in a typical camera enclosure with a shroud to make it less likely that objects touch the lens. The tape scatters the light - but if it's stuck on a thin piece of glass, not so much.
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Re:Duct tape (Score:5, Insightful)
Realize you have no control over it. You don't know where "the" microphone is, whether it is active, nor how many there are. And you never will.
Thanks, Winston (Score:2)
Realize you have no control over it. You don't know where "the" microphone is, whether it is active, nor how many there are. And you never will.
Listen, is it normal to expect all our encounters to have "party oversight"? For now, I'll assume that Hertz vehicles are "police state-ready" while others are still "in development".
Makes my choices easier for now.
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What do you do about the microphone?
Legislate.
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The Handyman's Secret Weapon.
And korean gangsta rap fixes the audio
Yes .. it exists IZ "Roll Wit a Gangsta" [youtube.com]
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Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Agreed.
No plans ... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.
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The Internet says Hertz keeps cars for an average of 18 months.
So installing these things only makes sense if they have plans to use them within that timeframe.
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These things can be (and are) removed from the cars and moved into new ones. It's not a permanent installation.
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The Internet says Hertz keeps cars for an average of 18 months.
So installing these things only makes sense if they have plans to use them within that timeframe.
I think they strip and re-use all the NeverLost equipment when they ditch a car. At least that stuff isn't sold when the cars are sold off.
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they said 'no CURRENT plans'.
isn't that enough wiggle room to create NEW plans, later?
what this will mean is that the 'field test' shows we are not passive enough to accept this surveillance. they'll try again in n+1 units of time and see if we've become more passive and are willing to tolerate it.
if that fails, there's always hiding mics and cameras inside the dash. I'm sure they have spent some time in boardrooms discussing exactly that, too.
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Hertz: "We have no plans to use the cameras!"
Consumers: "Thank goodness! We were worried!"
Hertz: "Well, shit, it looks like we've got a plan!"
Re:No plans ... (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.
No necessarily true. If you are investing in hardware for a fleet, some future proofing can make sense even if you don't have a specific use in mind.
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A camera is not futureproofing.
I bet the salesman had a different take on it.
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The only thing we know is that they've been caught before they were in the wild.
Except they've been out there for at least a year, probably more.
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“We do not have adequate bandwidth capabilities to the car to support streaming video at this time,”
Notice that this doesn't mention *local* recording - say, a snapshot every 30 seconds or so. Then auto-upload via WiFi when the car returns to the agency. This might be very valuable for corporate marketing research, and to catch people doing things in the cars that their contract frowns on :-)
Car pr0n? (Score:2)
“We do not have adequate bandwidth capabilities to the car to support streaming video at this time,”
Notice that this doesn't mention *local* recording - say, a snapshot every 30 seconds or so. Then auto-upload via WiFi when the car returns to the agency. This might be very valuable for corporate marketing research, and to catch people doing things in the cars that their contract frowns on :-)
Or as a separate venture to capture and broadcast "in-car pr0n" - they don't have to be pictures - HD space is cheap... I wonder if that's covered in the rental agreement fine-print.
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You don't do something unless you have plans to use it
I suppose if people start snipping the cables to the camera, Hertz will have trouble proving damages.
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I bought a laptop with a forward facing camera that I never intend to use. It was just cheaper than getting a laptop that didn't have one.
The same can be said for any off the shelf hardware. Sometime you are just stuck with what they make.
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Either they're using an off-the-shelf device and it would take a custom build to get it without the camera, or it barely cost them any more to get the camera so they included it before deciding whether they were going to bother with that feature. In the end they decided to skip it because they'd have to show you call center employees, and that was recognized as a terrible idea.
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You don't do something unless you have plans to use it. I call bullshit.
I see you have little experience with decisionmaking in corporate America.
God I hate those neverlost things (Score:5, Interesting)
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I've gotten a few rental cars from Hertz with the GPS devices. You can only turn the brightness down a bit. They cannot be turned off. I did notice the camera, so I just tossed my jacket over over it. I just request a car without that device now. Besides I have phone GPS which frankly is easier to use.
Seconded. I tried to use NeverLost once. UI was terrible, and the turn instructions were either late, or unclear, resulting in my getting...lost. Next rental, I had my Garmin with me. Worked like a charm.
Re:God I hate those neverlost things (Score:4, Informative)
You can just turn them off. Button's on the side or top. Takes two seconds, although you do have to do it every time you start the car, which is kind of annoying.
Re: God I hate those neverlost things (Score:3)
Re: God I hate those neverlost things (Score:2)
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Besides I have phone GPS which frankly is easier to use.
That is pretty said if they have developed an in-car device that is less useful than a phone. Why don't they just buy cars with GPS? Just about every car has it at least as an option these days. You get a much larger screen, no worrying about batteries dying, usually a much less dangerous UI than a phone or other separate GPS, and some models even have limited inertial navigation for when you go into tunnels or are traveling in mountainous areas.
And now, your daily dose of tinfoil hattery (Score:5, Informative)
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No plans to do so (Score:5, Funny)
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No plans to do so
Hertz said, "No current plans to do so." [emphasis mine]
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There's nothing to say that plans to use the camera may appear later today, tomorrow, next week or next month. If Hertz had not intended to use the cameras, they simply would not have put them in the vehicles.
Remainder of quote (Score:2)
god hertz sucks (Score:4, Funny)
I just had a rental from them while my car was in the shop -- Chrysler 200 -- it had the annoying as feck GPS / nav unit.
On vehicle start up, after about 5 seconds it would play a super annoying jingle followed by "Hertz!". No way to turn down the volume, disable it, or turn off the nav unit entirely.
Starting the car.. I felt like Peter on office space preparing to get shocked by the door handle.
Methinks that they went this route to stop people from going postal on that fucking thing, and destroying it. (After a week I was about to.)
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I just had a rental from them while my car was in the shop -- Chrysler 200 -- it had the annoying as feck GPS / nav unit.
On vehicle start up, after about 5 seconds it would play a super annoying jingle followed by "Hertz!". No way to turn down the volume, disable it, or turn off the nav unit entirely.
Starting the car.. I felt like Peter on office space preparing to get shocked by the door handle.
Methinks that they went this route to stop people from going postal on that fucking thing, and destroying it. (After a week I was about to.)
I always figured the GPS unit in the Hertz cars was a theft deterrent.
When I rent from Hertz, I personally hate being in the same space as the GPS unit. It would definitely make me find another car to steal.
OnStar (Score:5, Informative)
Do you recall OnStar? They would let the FBI listen in on car conversations without the passengers being aware.
http://subliminalnews.com/archives/000119.php
Of course they would NEVER use these, no way, go about your business citizen.
"no plans to use them" (Score:2)
PostIt notes now are even more useful (Score:2)
Use PostIt notes to cover the camera lens, until _you_ chose to allow yourself to be video-ed.
Re:PostIt notes now are even more useful (Score:4, Funny)
I have an evil-genius 2-step plan on how to fight this.
first, you need to have a small a/v player. hey, smart phones can play audio and video! now, we need a reducer so that we can 'pipe' the video into the camera, optically, to create the illusion that the car is empty (or in any state we want). easy to pipe in audio, simply by putting the phone spkr near the mic.
2nd part of the plan is to edit the contract (adding a section) that says you may, at your option, provide 'performance art' inside the car. something to that effect.
now that you've set it up, have some fun! what could you record that would be great for playback, for them to see? fake a murder? fake a corporate take-over? fake a plot of some kind? some other kind of intentional mis-direction?
you already covered yourself by the performance-art clause. you can laugh it off when you sign their contract and just make a joke about the camera. if done properly, they won't know what you have in mind.
the rest, as they say: 'hillarity will ensue'.
and unless its illegal (its not) to pipe in any video stream you want in front of a spycam, you can do this and mess with their data collection while having some well-earned laughs at their expense.
No plans to use Hertz!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
I call this spreadsheet thinking; that is where a person has a spreadsheet showing the millions of car rentals and then adds a new line item where they make a few extra pennies per rental and it makes the bottom line go up by a nice jump. Then the MBAs give each other nice bonuses based upon this "brilliant" plan. What they don't have is a line item where their customers will actually pay more to use a different rental company that doesn't have cameras in their cars. The MBAs will just call them a few "irrational" actors who need to "get a life". Then when the media gets a hold of this they will say that "It was blown out of proportion" and eventually they will retreat saying that they need to "reposition" the technology.
The lesson the company won't learn is to stop hiring psychopathic MBAs.
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Do you really think they give a shit, when 99%+ will not care, and the overall impact still is in their favor? Or, when all of the other rental companies pile on, and you have no other options, will you boycott them all?
For the record, I'm against this move, and would likely stick electrical tape over any camera.
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.. 99%+ will not care...For the record, I'm against this move, and would likely stick electrical tape over any camera.
part of the 99%?
Unfortunately, no. But in all of the discussions I have with people regarding privacy, few outside of Slashdot seem to care. Maybe I'm working from a bad data set, but can you think of any examples where people raised enough stink about privacy to actually get changes enacted? I'm all for fighting the good fight, but I won't don't believe in swimming against the tide.
Probably will turn out good (Score:2)
There's probably lots of things certain people won't do with a camera pointed at them, even if it's supposedly disabled. This will probably end up saving them some money on hijinks related car damage.
in the future? (Score:2)
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Re:As if we needed another reason to not use Hertz (Score:5, Insightful)
Not like there aren't competitors, who I avail myself of at all times.
The car rental universe is going the way of broadband internet, don't you know? There are three major companies now operating under several names each. Like: [independenttraveler.com]
If you want to avoid one company, you need to know all the players and who they play for.
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If only there was a way. (Score:4, Informative)
Here's a crazy idea, read the contract you signed.
contracts says possible location device (Score:2)
Logitech webcam $24; built into GPS for $10? (Score:2)
One more thing not to do in a rental car. (Score:2)
Have sex.
Unless you are planning on becoming a pr0n star.
Wrong direction (Score:2)
Rental agencies need to think in terms of simplifying. Automobile dashboards already have far too much frivolous crap. That's bad enough if you own the car and can spend 15 or 20 minutes learning everything, but it's a real hazard for a car you've only been driving for 10 minutes when you realize you can't turn off heated seats or turn on rear window defrost. The last car I rented had a mute button but no way to turn off the radio (really - I pulled over and spent five minutes reading the owner's manual
Hertz needs cameras, but at its gates (Score:2)
The complete exterior of every rental car being checked out should be photographed in high resolution, so that if damage is reported on checkin, the check-out record can be compared. Naturally, a time-stamped copy of the checkout photos should be emailed to the customer right after being taken. A damage assessment would legally be made if and only if the checkout images clearly showed no damage at that location.
Up to now the customer has been responsible to taking checkout photos, but what that has led to i
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Exactly. The NSA will use them.
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How about cameras at enter and exit of the rental place?
No we can't do that as it will end our ding and dent scam.
I travel for business and rent cars a couple of times a month. My experience with Hertz and Avis (top tier business targeted rental companies) has been that they don't do the ding and dent scam. If you return a car to one of these guys and it has all for tires, runs, and has no obvious accident dents, you won't get hassled. On the other hand, companies like Thrifty, Budget, and independents tend to give me the super picky inspection process when you check out and return the cars.
I did just rent from Hertz
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I've been routinely photographing my rental cars pre- and post- rental. Haven't had the scam tried on me yet, but looking forward to suing the shit out of them when they do.
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Smells like astroturf in here.
Says the AC. You can check my other posts to see if I have a history of shilling or not (I don't).
Believe it or not I am just a customer who is generally happy with the service. They are more expensive then the lower tier companies, but this is business travel and I am not paying for it. Their cars are generally not very interesting, but I am not a car guy and I just want to get where I am going. Sometime the cars are not new and dirty, this bugs me. But all these things are generally outweighed by the eas