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Uber Must Submit CEO Emails 183

Rambo Tribble writes: Uber has lost its bid in U.S. federal court to avoid disclosing emails from Chief Executive Travis Kalanick in a California lawsuit accusing the popular ride-booking service of deceiving customers about how it shares tips with drivers. U.S. District Judge Edward Chen, in reference to U.S. Magistrate Judge Donna Ryu's ruling that the plaintiff in the lawsuit can receive emails from Kalanick and global operations chief Ryan Graves, wrote, "That Judge Ryu's order may require defendant to review approximately 21,000 documents does not represent an improper burden given the potential role of defendant's CEO and vice president of operations in defendant's challenged conduct." This comes amid mounting legal problems for Uber, including South Korea indicting Kalanick on charges he violated local licensing laws and numerous cities around the globe banning the service.
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Uber Must Submit CEO Emails

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  • by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) * on Saturday January 03, 2015 @04:48PM (#48726497)

    This is not an "editorial" on Uber as a service compared to traditional cab services, but rather an observation that growing government regulation (banning) of Uber (and similar services) and the liability of an almost certain stream of lawsuits will simply negate any way for services like Uber to continue.

    • by Lehk228 ( 705449 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:21PM (#48726655) Journal
      not even expansion of regulations, uber was illegal from the start in many jurisdictions
    • by thetoadwarrior ( 1268702 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:54PM (#48726837) Homepage
      It's not like they invented regulations to block Uber. They're simply making Uber play by the same rules which is fair. If Uber rather quit offering services to an area rather than comply with the law they're welcome to do that.
      • by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) * on Saturday January 03, 2015 @06:05PM (#48726895)

        They're simply making Uber play by the same rules which is fair. If Uber rather quit offering services to an area rather than comply with the law they're welcome to do that.

        Yes, but that would "level the playing field" which would cut into Uber's financial advantage.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 03, 2015 @06:09PM (#48726911)

      Uber has a good service and a potential future. What they need to do is start acting as an order portal for regular taxis. So that means selling the online service to taxi companies instead of end users.

      But the real hold up here, if they go that route only, is gonna be the disappointment on the faces of the executives and the VCs who thought they'd all make billions because they made a popular internet app, which is the dream these days.

      • What they need to do is start acting as an order portal for regular taxis.

        That would just make them a taxi company.

      • by nbauman ( 624611 )

        One of the preconditions for a working, efficient free market is competition and consumer choice. Uber doesn't meet the conditions of a free market.

        One of the problems with the Internet economy is that it tends to eliminate competition and wind up with a single service provider.

        For years, Microsoft dominated the business OS and apps market. Amazon dominates book sales (and anything that can be sold like a book). Google dominates search, email, and anything that is distributed like search.

        When I studied econ

        • One of the preconditions for a working, efficient free market is competition and consumer choice

          But in reality, capitalism tends towards lack of competition and lack of consumer choice, which is why you need laws to balance things out.

          You can try to argue that capitalism isn't "real" free market economics, but then you're into No True Scotsman territory.

          Capitalism is what has developed naturally from unrestricted trade. If you're a capitalist, you want to increase the value of your money by any legal means necessary, and if there are no laws it will just be by any means necessary.

    • by OzPeter ( 195038 )

      Add to that lots of backlash for the surge pricing, which comes across as pure gouging.

    • by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @06:52PM (#48727105)

      This is not an "editorial" on Uber as a service compared to traditional cab services, but rather an observation that growing government regulation (banning) of Uber (and similar services) and the liability of an almost certain stream of lawsuits will simply negate any way for services like Uber to continue.

      I think that Uber-like services are here to stay. They've simply been too effective at out-competing cabs, regulation can only slow down these things for so long, the question is what the eventual market looks like.

      No matter what Uber-like phone apps are going to be part of the answer, the big question is whether the drivers will be "amateurs", driving their own cars and either working full-time or just making a few bucks on the side, or if they'll be medallioned taxis with all the artificial scarcity and extra regulations entailed with that.

      If phone apps are the big things that make Uber better than traditional taxis might rebound and eventually kill the ride-sharing services.

      If the marginal workforce (ie part-timers, students, etc) working for cheap and following high demand is what brings the benefits then I suspect the regulations will eventually find a way to allow them, and the future cab industry will consist of multiple small players signing up with driver networks.

      Either way Uber is a bit of an interesting experiment business wise. They've got a massive first mover advantage to go with some horrible PR and it seems like a bunch of that first mover advantage comes from the fact that they're willing to be assholes and simply ignore the law.

      They're one of those companies where I suspect a lot of people will jump ship the moment a viable alternative is available since there's so much borderline stuff going on. I suspect Lyft or one of the other services with slightly better PR will eventually surpass them once the regulatory environment has changed and the services start hitting critical mass so the network differences aren't as apparent.

      • Uber & Lyft offer basically the same service and very similar pricing. Formerly I used Uber because (at that time) I slightly preferred their Android app over Lyft's app. Now I mostly use Lyft because they seem like a subjectively "nicer" company.

        When there are multiple companies offering equivalent services, it doesn't take a lot to sway people's loyalty.

        • by nbauman ( 624611 )

          Uber & Lyft offer basically the same service and very similar pricing. Formerly I used Uber because (at that time) I slightly preferred their Android app over Lyft's app. Now I mostly use Lyft because they seem like a subjectively "nicer" company.

          When there are multiple companies offering equivalent services, it doesn't take a lot to sway people's loyalty.

          Internet companies seem to devolve into monopolies -- Microsoft, Google, Amazon. Uber's $50 billion venture capital is a pretty high entry barrier. They can bribe governors with that. So there may not be any significant competition or consumer choice.

          • That's a legit concern for the future. But at the present, in my particular city, there is real competition.

        • Uber may be have some ethical issues compared to Lyft or Sidecar, but they're practically saints compared to the scum of the legacy cab companies.

          For all of the bad press that seems to get heaped onto Uber, I really have a hard time understanding why people steadfastly refuse to look at the dirty laundry of the cab companies and their legacy of corruption, bribery, croneyism and nepotism, and sometimes outright violence. And that's before taking into consideration their absolutely appallingly poor service,

          • I took Lyft home tonight, but I would have LOVED to take the Muni instead. I'm nothing if not cheap. It's good that SF has the all-night Owl service, but to be honest it sucks balls. A 15 minute walk followed by a 30 minute wait followed by a 15 minute bus ride followed by another 15 minute walk wasn't really worth it when the Lyft ride took under 10 minutes door to door.

            • Yeah. I know the feeling. The REAL solution here is, of course, to fix and enhance public transportation so that Uber, Lyft, Sidecar, taxis, and owning a car, are all unnecessary in the first place.

              I despair of that ever happening in this country though because public transportation is, you know, communism and makes the baby jesus cry and all that.

    • Or, alternatively, it's simply a sign that just because your business is connected with phones or computers it doesn't exempt you from obeying the law.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    "hard drive crashed and our backup mostly failed. sorry. here's what we could salvage. it's all we have.....honest!"

    --Travis Kalanick, while typing one handed for some undisclosed reason.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I think you're talking about the IRS where 8 hard drives serendipitously crashed.

      • Re:oops.. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:29PM (#48726705)

        You think Uber comes up with their own ideas? That's priceless.

        Taxi
        Rideshare
        Carpooling
        Hitchhiking
        Taxi dispatching via web (app)
        Rideshare matching
        Demand-driven pricing
        Underinsured driving
        Skirting or ignoring laws to save money
        Hiring unqualified and/or unlicensed/permitted labor
        The tomato (i.e. calling your stuff one thing when it's really another to save on taxes/tarrifs/costs)

        These are all things that have been done before, and is, combined, essentially Uber's business model. Uber hasn't done anything except basically put it all in a pot and stir. So yes, he'll have gotten the idea from previous events, such as the one you mentioned.

    • It works for the IRS.

  • by Hadlock ( 143607 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:01PM (#48726563) Homepage Journal

    Everyone I know uses Uber, at least once a quarter. It only takes 5 minutes for an Uber to arrive and typically it only costs $5 to get a ride back to your car, or $20 to get a ride back home. When calling a taxi, you may or may not have someone arrive within an hour, especially during peak hours. What's the point? If it takes an hour for a Taxi to arrive and you're going less than 4 miles, it's faster to just walk.
     
    Taxi companies want the Uber business, of course they do. But Uber customers hate taxis. They're dirty, filthy, never arrive on time and dealing with change/tips is a real hassle. Especially if it's late and you've been out with friends all night. If Uber disappeared from my city I'd just stop using similar services. Uber makes it just this side of bearable. Taxis are a fucking disaster and unless I'm headed home from the airport in a foreign city, I doubt you'll ever see me in one. If Uber disappears, so does my desire to use "taxi" services.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by gnasher719 ( 869701 )
      Part of Uber's billion dollar investment money well spent on marketing.
      • by Hadlock ( 143607 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:25PM (#48726683) Homepage Journal

        I wish(!) My car developed a short last winter and I switched to commuting by bicycle most days, Uber on the rainy/colder days (somewhat rare here in Dallas). It's about $6.50 one way to my office downtown from my house. I smashed up my hand (partial cut to my index finger's extendor tendon) and ended up taking Uber every day for three weeks while I was unable to ride my bike. I spend about $90/month on uber rides in the winter, it's pretty fantastic. If the city of Dallas were to ban Uber, I'd buy another car and go back to driving on cold rainy days. Between gas insurance and parking downtown, Uber actually comes out about $0.70 a day cheaper than owning a car full time. And I don't have to drive in rush hour traffic, so I can respond to work emails "in transit" which means I can leave the house 15 minutes later than normal, and my correspondence is already caught up for the morning before I walk through the door.
         
        Uber is reliable and someone always shows up in 5 minutes. I've never had a taxi arrive less than 45 minutes after I called for one. Here in Dallas taxi's primary purpose is going between downtown and the airport. With Uber I've been able to finally write off my main reason for owning a car - reliable transportation, and do it in a cost effective manner.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Why are you expected to have responded to correspondence before arriving at work?

        • by TWX ( 665546 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:54PM (#48726841)
          You live in a suburban city, not an urban city. Your city was designed with with the automobile in mind, and the vast majority of residents of your city drive themselves. That goes a long way to explaining why you can't easily grab an unscheduled cab ride except from certain hubs of activity, as there's no profit in hanging out in the suburbs to wait for a fare that may or may not come.

          I expect that you'll find taxis waiting at the airports, at busier hotels, at the sports venues during activities, at the convention centers during activities, at the more popular shopping centers, and possibly any of the higher-density downtown-type areas. Part of the reason you have to wait for a taxi in the suburbs is because they're going to pick you up after another fare into that part of the suburbs needs to be dropped off, so they can justify the trip out there.

          The taxi services don't owe you anything. The taxi services are also operating within the law as the state, the counties, and the cities require, with commercial insurance, commercial vehicle inspections, and probably with extra screening for their drivers and their licenses. Uber, by claiming to be a ride-sharing service where the driver is supposedly already going your way and you're supposed to be reimbursing him for your portion of the drive, is cheating when the drivers are just picking up and dropping off fares without the drivers themselves having their own destinations to attend to along the route. Those drivers don't have the same insurance and don't have to have their vehicles inspected to commercial levels, and probably don't even have their drivers' licenses scrutinized.

          Last time I took a taxi was in SF. Worked fine. Hailed one on the street and took it the few blocks I needed to go. That's a high-density city. I could have hailed one in London or in Paris, but I didn't need cabs in those cities. Either way, it would have been an easy option, where the population density was high enough to make it cost effective to have cabs roaming looking for fares.
          • by Hadlock ( 143607 )

            The first five miles around downtown are solidly urban, and Taxis fill a specific (and important!) gap between public transit and private transit. If the Taxis don't owe the city anything, why are they a protected and regulated monopoly? Why not just disband the taxi system entirely and let services like Uber replace them in cities with urban cores smaller than SF and NYC?

            • by TWX ( 665546 )
              Have you read Dallas' rules governing livery?

              Transportation Hire Regulations [dallascityhall.com]

              It's pretty interesting stuff. While there appears to be a regulated cap on the number of taxis in Dallas, they have a lot of other regulations that are much more important, like age of the vehicle, condition of the vehicle, minimum insurance requirements ($500,000!), and the driving history of the operator.

              Taxis with conventional drivetrains cannot be more than six years old. This means they're forced to be fuel efficien
              • Have you read Dallas' rules governing livery?

                No, I haven't... but since I live in Dallas, I suspect the written rules mean little...

                Taxis with conventional drivetrains cannot be more than six years old.

                Ha, yes I was right... this is a joke, many of the taxis here are older than this...

                Uber might be able to operate as a Limo service, but would have to use vehicles that qualify as limos per Dallas' requirements, which must be luxury vehicles to qualify, and has otherwise most of the same insurance and driver record rules.

                It is actually about $5 cheaper to hire a luxury sedan to take me to the airport than it is to hire a cab, the cabs are that bad...

            • There's no need to "disband" anything. When cab companies are subject to competition from other services they adapt, just as Darwin and Smith said they would. In Phoenix, where taxi service is unregulated, the rise of Uber has motivated cab companies to hire English-spoeaking drivers and to start using smartphone apps to take orders.

          • So I live in Downtown Atlanta Ga which is far from suburban. There are plenty of taxi stands around but I prefer to use Uber. Why? Because almost invariably the taxis do not operate "within the law as the state, the counties, and the cities require."

            When I walk up to a cab they ask me where I'm going, and if I'm not going very far they almost always refuse to give me a ride. Many also don't turn on their fare meters and make up rates (I've lived Downtown for 16 years, I know what a ride is supposed to cost)

            • The situation in other cities might be different, but here, the cab drivers have dug their own graves.

              This... The Taxis have taken their protected market for granted for so long, they have forgotten they have customers...

              They won't be missed...

          • In the urban areas, Uber flourishes because it flaunts the requirements placed upon taxis, and offers cheaper (and higher quality) service as a result.

            In the suburban areas, it flourishes for the same reason, plus it offers faster service. So, there may be something valid about this model in a suburban setting.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Tips? For a TAXI?

      What the hell, people. Just pay the fare and you're done.

      Longest I've waited for a taxi was 15 minutes. They've always been very clean. On time. No tips either. (though they ARE quite pricey)

      I guess this quality difference in Taxi service might differ between countries. I'm from that socialist hellhole in northern Europe: Sweden.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        You should see how Las Vegas handles cabs. There are a million cabs, but you are only allowed to board them in special designated areas. At these areas is a guy who whistles for the next cab and asks where you are going, then tells the cabbie where you are going, and he expects a tip as well. As soon as you get in the cab, the cabbie again asks where you are going and then the iPad in the back seat starts running loud ads for you to watch. The cabs can only take you to deisgnated drop off points.

        The bes

      • I tip but then I don't take a taxi on a daily basis. If I did that's probably a sign I need a car or bike.
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        I bet you don't even tip the other passengers after the plane lands, asshole.

      • Your anecdotal evidence points out an interesting aspect of the Uber argument. There may be countries where Uber is unnecessary due to a high quality existing taxi network. Uber will fail where the market offers no foothold.

        It sounds like that's the case in your 'hellhole' (as an aside, if Swedish women are a ubiquitous feature of 'hellholes' then I'm investing long in hellhole futures)

        For the US, most towns and cities have virtually zero cab service. Very large cities do, and the customer satisfac
        • See... if there is a narnia somewhere that the legacy taxi companies don't suck and aren't a bunch of scumbags, and Uber is unnecessary there... why not let it fail on its own merits instead of squashing it at the political level?

          No corporation... not YellowCab, not LuxorCab, not Uber or Lyft... is entitled to its profits and whatever profits they bring in should *not* be protected by the law. If the legacy taxi companies really *do* provide better service in some area than Uber, then they should be able t

    • Not true everywhere (Score:5, Informative)

      by aepervius ( 535155 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:27PM (#48726691)
      Especially not true in many countries where Uber was banned or is in the process of scrutinity. I have never had any dirty in Seoul, or in germany where I live, or in england (as a matter of disclosure I had a few dirty taxi in NY, true, but the vast majority of taxi I took in Dallas or other metropole in teh US were squicky clean). I had a few dirty taxi in Paris, but that was so long ago, and the few taxi I took in the last decade in france were clean too.

      Anyway at least for germany I support the regulation and uber being forced to obey it. After all we do not have a medaillon system like in the US, everybody with the proper training driver licence, and the proper governemental check of their money counter, as well as the proper insurance (commercial passenger transport insurance) can become a taxi. In my city we have a lot of different taxi companies, some being simply a single person having repainted their own car (and having the proper papers). Nothing outrageous really, in fact those regulations make a lot of sense.
      • Anyway at least for germany I support the regulation and uber being forced to obey it.

        And I suspect that eventually they will, for things like that, unless they are forced out by explicit bans. As you say, most of those regulations are not particularly bothersome ..... although unfortunately trying to fix problems with laws can go wrong so easily. For example if there's a regulation about a working money counter (meter), and Uber drivers don't use meters because the app is doing the calculations instead, th

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:45PM (#48726793)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • by Frosty Piss ( 770223 ) * on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:59PM (#48726863)

        Not sure where you live, but where I live, taxi's have to pay taxes. They have to pay social security. They have to pay for meters. They have to pay for insurance with passengers. Also for extra technical testing of the cars. And also for the taxi stands.

        If you cut all that out, it is obvious that itwill be cheaper. Illegal, but cheaper. Just as if I would run a sweatshop. Illegal, but cheaper.

        I'm willing to accept that the cars might be nicer (though not inspected regularly for passenger service purposes), response time might be better. The issue that bothers me is insurance. , and what happens when an Uber driver is in an injury accedent, and where the liabilities land:

        The insurance secret that Uber doesnâ(TM)t want you to know [policygenius.com]
        Leaked transcript shows Geicoâ(TM)s stance against Uber, Lyft [sfgate.com]
        Uber Advises Drivers To Buy Insurance That Leaves Them Uncovered [buzzfeed.com]

        People think that taxi licencing is all about monopolies and cartels, but there are many other valid issues that regulation addresses.

        • In that case, the solution is to simply mandate the appropriate minimum insurance coverage, and be done with it. But that's not what these governments are doing, is it?

          Actual restrictions on Uber and the like, rather than your simple insurance requirement, ARE there just to protect the monopolies and cartels that have sleazed their way into their protected positions. Said monopolies and cartels need to be broken. And the politicians supporting them need to be brought low. A pox on all their houses.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Do you see how much nonsense is in your post?

      Everyone I know uses Uber,

      One person I know uses Uber, occasionally. Woo anecdotes!

      at least once a quarter.

      Four times a year? Then either they have very rare need for a taxi service, or they know that taxis are better and choose Uber as a last resort.

      It only takes 5 minutes for an Uber to arrive

      Maybe at a time of little traffic in the most densely Uber-populated city in the world.

      and typically it only costs $5 to get a ride back to your car, or $20 to get a ride back home.

      These numbers have no meaning to anyone. Are you twenty paces away from your car, and eighty paces from home? What the fuck are you trying to say, apart from writing shit that de

    • by MisterSquid ( 231834 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @05:51PM (#48726825)

      Uber is an ethically-challenged company. They are repeatedly in the news for their unscrupulous behavior (e.g. DDoSing their competitors by requesting and canceling rides) and dragged into court by multiple jurisdictions for their negligence in matters of insurance, background checks for their drivers, and predatory business practices.

      Uber's CEO's tone deaf call to harass journalists was the last straw for me and I stopped using Uber and began using their competitor Lyft.

      If Lyft is as good in your city as it is in mine, you may be pleasantly surprised should you also choose to switch.

      I'm personally sick of hearing about Uber acting like assholes in the news and, for my money, they can't go under quickly enough.

    • Maybe where you live but the taxis here are waiting at key points like the train station and shopping centres so my only wait is few seconds it takes to get off the train or leave the shop. most City centres are like that. If there is a wait it's because it's rush hour. Uber adding, as an example, 20 more cabs, wouldn't completely fix it and if they were so good they'd put the others out of business it would just as bad if not worse.
    • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      Easy fix. Change taxi licensing laws, strictly one per customers. No douches bag buying as many as they can, creating completely artificial government corrupted by business cartels. Cartels that run down vehicle maintenance and pay crap wages, ensuring bad drivers. Basically a new business model, where the taxi licence holder, drives their taxi, owns their car and only pools booking via a co-op owned booking agency. Recover and auction off the licences every ten years and block direct transfers of licences

    • by TapeCutter ( 624760 ) on Saturday January 03, 2015 @06:10PM (#48726919) Journal
      I'm sure the taxi industry will be crushed by the loss of your $5 per quarter.

      Sure Uber is cheap, it makes it's money by exploiting people who are desperate for work and have a drivable car. After a few months the driver is still desperate but no longer has a drivable car because he can't afford the tyres/maintenance. Worst still, if the driver fucks up and doesn't have the right kind of registration/insurance then he will be paying for it for the rest of his life.

      Disclaimer: Ex-taxi driver, Melbourne, late 80's. I once had a complainer like you in the cab, he had flagged me down and was in a big hurry, as soon as we got going he started bitching I wasn't going fast enough. When I pointed out I was driving at the speed limit he just became more cranky and replied "it would be quicker by bus". I pulled over at the next bus stop and threw him out of the cab, I let him keep the $5 on the meter, the look of shocked disbelief on his face was worth it.
      • Here's what I think should happen: When the next big accident happens, a court should look at the actual facts and decide that in spite of how Uber wants to make it appear, they are indeed employing taxi drivers. And that they are completely responsible for anything that happens. And that any damage caused by a car driving for Uber has to be paid for from Uber's money.
    • Well a). You won't stop doing stuff even if you don't use taxis, but nice threat on slash dot, I'm sure everyone here cares.

      B) did I mention that no one cares or will notice when you stop?

      Your just going to stay home? Walk? Drive? What did you do before uber? The world hasn't changed irrevocably because you've used uber the last couple of years ... Has it?

      • by Shados ( 741919 )

        Now that Uber's there, a lot of people choose not to own cars, or people who used to depend on buses and subways go out to certain places that were not convenient before, more often.

        So if it goes away, they'll just go back to their old routine, which is fine. Point is, taxi cabs are NOT worth the trouble. If I have the choice between going to restaurant A by subway, or B by Uber, it may just come down to which restaurant I like most. If my choice is A by subway or B by Taxi, its going to be A, no contest.

    • But Uber customers hate taxis. They're dirty, filthy, never arrive on time and dealing with change/tips is a real hassle.

      Jesus Christ where the hell do you live??

      In London we have a taxi company (booked only) called Addison-Lee. They've been high tech for ages and have had on line tracking (your assigned car is GPS tracked and you can see exactly how far away it is when it's on the way) and so on since before Uber became well known. You can pre-pay trips too by card. Except instead of getting in some rand

    • dealing with change/tips is a real hassle

      Are you a slightly backwards eight year old? Or are you just too much of a precious snowflake to carry dirty old cash?

      Oh no, I forgot, you're probably part of the astroturfing team that Uber are spending some of their billions of venture capital on.

  • Hopefully they used Snapchat to exchange photos of them fucking over customers.

    Just kidding, hah. All in all, I think Uber is the greatest gift to us customers in the history of taxis. I've had enough of taxi drivers lying, cheating, and just plain driving badly. Regulators might do well to acknowledge that Uber provides more accountability of drivers and power to the customer than any taxi regualtion has yet.

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