Sony Hack Reveals MPAA's Big '$80 Million' Settlement With Hotfile Was a Lie 117
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Tech Dirt: For years, we've pointed out that the giant 'settlements' that the MPAA likes to announce with companies it declares illegal are little more than Hollywood-style fabrications. Cases are closed with big press releases throwing around huge settlement numbers, knowing full well that the sites in question don't have anywhere near that kind of money available. At the end of 2013, it got two of these, with IsoHunt agreeing to 'pay' $110 million and Hotfile agreeing to 'pay' $80 million. In both cases, we noted that there was no chance that those sums would ever get paid. And now, thanks to the Sony hack, we at least know the details of the Hotfile settlement. TorrentFreak has been combing through the emails and found that the Hotfile settlement was really just for $4 million, and the $80 million was just a bogus number agreed to for the sake of a press release that the MPAA could use to intimidate others.
"Just" four million? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's still not exactly chump change...
Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Interesting)
4 millions, 40 millions, 4 billions... does it intimidate you any more? It does not matter whether I owe someone 4 million or 4 billion bucks. It makes zero difference AT ALL. In either case I will NEVER work again, knowing that no matter what I do or how hard I even remotely would want to work, I could never pay that. And no matter what I do, I will never get to keep any of the money I earn. Instead, all such a verdict could accomplish is that I will do my best to get by with illegal work and try to do my best to match the damages to the verdict.
Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Funny)
Sure it makes a difference. If you owe 4 billion you qualify for the Too Big To Fail corporate welfare program.
Re: "Just" four million? (Score:1)
There is the saying in finance, if you owe the bank a hundred thousand dollars, the bank owns you, but if you owe the bank a hundred million dollars, you own the bank.
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tl;dr (Score:1)
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That's how the banks make their money
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That's a pretty high level of abstraction.
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The bankers make no money if nobody borrows from them.
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So you're saying that fractional reserve banking is just another budget deficit? That's a pretty high level of abstraction.
In a way, yes. The Fed, after all, is, essentially, "skimming" off the top, via the deficit. It's an entirely corrupt scheme that dshould never have been allowed, and before, 1913, it wasn't..
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If 18 Tr sounds like a lot, consider it's really only $25,000 for every man woman and child
Why should anyone listen to someone that is so bad at math, about things that have to do with math?
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"There's easily enough capital in the US to buy out the debt." Wow. Do you realize what that buy out would do?
Yes. Cripple the entire corrupt banking system.
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There is the saying in finance, if you owe the bank a hundred thousand dollars, the bank owns you, but if you owe the bank a hundred million dollars, you own the bank.
Alternatively:
If you owe the bank a thousand dollars and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars and can't pay, the bank has a problem.
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Yeah, the banks know a lot of student debt is worthless, and they sell it for pennies on the dollar.
However, they won't let you buy your own debt for those pennies. You are still obliged to pay the full shot.
Re: "Just" four million? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you owe the bank a thousand dollars and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars and can't pay, the bank has a problem.
I've updated this...
If you owe the bank a hundred billion dollars and can't pay, the government has a problem...
Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry, but to qualify for the "Too Big To Fail" corporate welfare program you must have contributed at least 1 million to various political campaigns in the past and show means to contribute at least that amount in the future. Politicians need to eat after all.
Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Insightful)
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It might not make a difference to you but it evidently made a difference for Sony, otherwise they would have just publicised the correct amount. Since Sony decided to publicise a higher amount it's clear they somehow believed the correct amount was too low for the press release.
Yes. All of this high profile cases are for distributing large quantities of files.
If people start to think that $4 million is a common settlement for 10000 files they will start to think that a settlement over a couple of hundred is unreasonable for a single file.
Typically the record companies only bring up a dozen of files to the court while arguing that the person distributed tens of thousands.
All that is just to be safe. They don't want to get to a situation where they have to prove actual loss and the
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
That aside (Score:5, Insightful)
There are always limits to what they can take. Depending on the state you live in various assets are protected, and only so much of your income can be taken for payment. They don't get to just take everything you own and demand all your money. You will find it is usually things like your primary residence, primary vehicle, and so on are protected, and the limit of monthly payment is a certain percentage of after tax income.
So while a big judgement sucks and can effect you in various ways, it isn't a life ending "you are forever in debt and can never keep a dollar" event.
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The bankruptcy code is federal statutory law, cases are decided by the federal bankruptcy court. Bankruptcy has always been a federal matter (see Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution) and state law has no bearing on what can be discharged in the proceeding.
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Your point is valid but there is a further gotcha.
The company then files the 4 million as a loss-- which results in the irs counting it as income by you which results in taxes due on 4 million and the taxes are not forgivable by bankruptcy. After several years of harassment, wage garnishment, etc. you'll be allowed to settle the tax debt for a smaller amount. If you have the money to pay, it will be about 10 cents on the dollar. If you are really poor, you may not be able to get it forgiven and it just s
Do you mean getting 1099'd? (Score:3)
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That is great information. The cases I heard of said the the people didn't have a way to discharge the tax. Perhaps they didn't know about the form 982. I've never heard of it before.
Perhaps they didn't file chapter 7?
In any case, good to know!
So looking this up now... here's what I find
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/t... [irs.gov]
Canceled debts that meet the requirements for any of the following exceptions or exclusions are not taxable.
Debt Cancellations or Reductions that Qualify for EXCEPTION to Inclusion in Gro
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Tax office can't hold you liable for someone else's losses, even if you caused them. It's up to the company to get the money from you, and if they succeed at some point in the future, they pay taxes.
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This is done so that you can't hide income in the form of loans which are then forgiven.
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See the above response for full details but briefly...
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/t... [irs.gov]
(broadly) it looks like if you file for bankruptcy AND a judge agrees to cancel the debt, then you may file a form 982 to avoid it.
As your other responder said, a forgiven debt counts as income for you unless it is discharged under bankruptcy. I can see abuse where a company gives you it's profits as a loan and then forgives the debt and files it as a loss. This would be an easy way to avoid paying taxes every year.
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Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Insightful)
Scared Broke (Score:5, Interesting)
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I'm in IT security. Should it ever happen to me, I simply switch sides.
Re:"Just" four million? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lie, used to establish the basis of precedent, and to continue to act as if you are "winning".
No, not chump change at all. The kind of "not chump change" that should get you RICO charges. Because this is about as "corrupt organization" as you can get.
Nothing the *AAs have ever told us about copyright is based in fact, and they've used those lies to bully laws into existence which favor them. It's really time to start applying actual criminal charges to these organizations. Because they really are corrupt oligarchies who demand influence over the law.
Some of these clowns need serious jail time. And every politician who is paid for by them has sold us up the river to enrich themselves.
So, just fucking great, we have huge multinationals lying in public, and paying the politicians to get what they want.
Re: "Just" four million? (Score:1)
And how exactly do you propose to stop them? With what money? What political connection do you have? In case you haven't noticed, those bad corporations are not simply giants: they are gods. Go against them and you will be crushed.
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I was thinking long rifles might be a good start.
To hell with a political solution. Let's go for a nice practical one.
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When "justice" is bought and paid for by big business and the wealthy, the only option left is revolt. gstoddart has the only workable solution so far....
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Not chump change doesn't factor in, if you have a business that can, in some fashion, afford it. The quote says that it was paid. Ergo, jump up your own ass and die.
The problem is that a person can agree to pay a pittance, proportionally, and stipulate that a larger sum was paid.
That's straight up lying.
Did they pay $4M and tell the court that they paid more? If so, that's a problem. But a defunct company can't complain that they lied to a court and expect any kind of anything. Even worse, the court re
Magic! (Score:5, Insightful)
The real Hollywood Magic is in the accounting departments.
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Hollywood magic seems to be of a far darker side than that, including drug addiction to a full range of legal and 'illegal' drugs, casting couch extortion, under age sex, political corruption and of course tax evasion as a high art. The industry you have when you want an socio-economic black hole rather than anything that produces any genuine benefit.
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"Of course, all of this is just for show. You can safely assume that none of the much lower $4 million went back to any content creators"
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Hollywood a republican fief?!? In what reality? Compare how much Obama & the Dems receive in contributions from Hollywood from openly democratic actors/producers/etc & how few are openly Republican. If Hollywood is republican then the Koch brothers are democratic.
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Follow the money, coward. Republicans get peanuts from Hollywood whereas it is a major source of funds for the DNC. Stop ignorantly blaming republicans for everything, the impetus for extending copyright to its ridiculously long lengths came from democrats.
Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is (Score:3, Insightful)
Sony Hack Reveals MPAA's Big '$80 Million' Settlement With Hotfile Was a Lie
What do you expect from a mafia-style organization? And yet most Slashdotters tacitly support this though purchases of "media" while bleating how oppressed they are by these giant media companies. I hear "show it through your dollars" here all the time, but in actual prctice, it isn't happening, just think about all the bleating about xBox being down? I don't own an xBox, though I play plenty of great PC games... Well, I guess it works my way since I'm mostly into "first person shooters" rather than multi-play, but really? Put your money where your mouth is? Maybe?
I guess I'm not a good example since I haven't been to a theatre in many years... Seen a few good movies, though, and none of them involved the Joker or Blue People, or whatever...
Re:Well, duh (Score:5, Funny)
That they moved the news up from 11?
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Most Fox stations show their main newscast at 10pm, and other CW and MyNetworkTV affiliates do as well. The 10pm drama appears to be going out of style.
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The 10pm drama appears to be going out of style.
It IS the 10 PM drama.
Re:Well, duh (Score:4, Insightful)
Why are so many commentators constantly in need of surprises these days? Life generally too exciting?
I, personally, like to have my opinions based in fact. I like to change my opinions when facts show otherwise. I like to consider my opinions correct when the facts match up to what I thought all along. Reading a news story that confirms an opinion is just as important as reading a news story that indicates I might be wrong.
Re:Well, duh (Score:5, Interesting)
1/ MPAA / RIAA lie - news at 10
2/ PR statements are bullshit - news at 10
Where's the surprise here?
Actually, if they report this as part of their stockholder's meeting/information about the state of their company, I think it's quite illegal. As in the Feds can come in and start checking your books for other 'hundred million dollars lies'.
(Sorry, did not mean to post anonymously).
Four Million? (Score:2)
HA! Let me just go ahead and write you a check...
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Dear Sony,
here is your check for four million satoshi.
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I would prefer to pay them in Ningi.
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Only if you drop them on Sony execs from orbit...
(Douglas Adams you are sorely missed....)
Re:Inquiring minds want to know (Score:4, Insightful)
it was meant to affect shareholder value, value of future negotiations and all manner of other things.
further, it was meant to be used as a number to throw around when trying to extort money from other sites. like, when negotiating with isohunt say that the other site paid 80 million bucks and vice versa.
basically.. at the core of things.. it was fraud.
not just on one level but on many levels. all the mpaa member companies should be held accountable for that fraud... but guess if they are? fuck no..
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What's the process for reporting a crime in your country? Maybe someone should start the ball rolling?
judgement was for $80M, went out of business (Score:5, Interesting)
The judgement was in fact entered for $80 million. That's true. A judgement doesn't mean you're going to get paid. I've had a judgement for $2,500 against a guy for fifteen years. He paid $40. There's basically no way to make someone actually pay a judgement, especially if they are going out of business. The executives take their last pay check and close up the business. The judgement creditor can send demand letters all day long to where the business used to be, demanding that the now non-existent business pay the judgement.
Here, they agreed that Sony would get a judgement for $80 million, so reporting that judgement isn't exactly a lie. In addition, they agreed that the defendant would actually pay $4 million of that judgement, since they probably didn't have the money to pay the whole thing and even if they could, it's pretty easy to avoid paying a judgement in most cases. Just ignore the judgement. Then the plaintiff has to file additional law suits trying to get specific property seized to pay the judgement, after they identify specific non-exempt property that won't disappear before it's seized.
settlement after filing agrees to judgement (Score:3)
If a suit has already been filed at the time a settlement is reached, you typically don't just withdraw the suit; you ask the judge to enter judgement in the amount of the agreed settlement. That saves a step later if one party breaches the settlement agreement, or is tempted to, because the court has already ordered them to abide by the settlement they agreed to. If you withdraw your petition at settlement and the other party breaches, you have to file suit to enforce the settlement. Better to get t
how many songs? (Score:5, Interesting)
How many songs or "incidents of infringement" did Sony claim Hotfile was guilty of? What did Sony settle for as the price per infringement. Knowing the price sets a negotiation point for anyone else in a similar situaiton.
If Sony claimed there were 800M bad files sent out by Hotfile and the settlement was $4M then when Sony knocks on Joe Publics door. Joe Public can say "You settled with a commercial infringer for 4/800 = 1/200 = 0.5cents a file. As I am not a commercial operation lets start the negotiation at 1/10th of that or 0.05cents a file."
Makes it hard for Sony to intinidate the public if the settlement cost is going to be less than an hours of lawyer fees.
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According to https://torrentfreak.com/mpaa-wants-up-to-500-million-in-damages-from-hotfile-131202/ , this was for 3,448 video files. So $4M / 3448 videos ~= $1160 / video file. Considering this is at the very low end of the range of $750 - $150,000 damages per title, I can see why they weren't thrilled with a $4M announcement.
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A homeless bum can burn down a million dollar house, doesn't mean there's any point in trying to get a million bucks out of him. I'm assuming the settlement was for all Hotfile's actual money because otherwise they'd just spend more on lawyers with Sony getting less in the end, while the $80 million was some kind of imaginary "what we would like to have been paid" damages.
Joe Public can say "You settled with a commercial infringer for 4/800 = 1/200 = 0.5cents a file. As I am not a commercial operation lets start the negotiation at 1/10th of that or 0.05cents a file."
And they say "Say hello to statutory damages, that's $750 minimum per infringement. We don't need to offer you anything, no matter what s
Sony vs NKVD (Score:2, Insightful)
I believe that Sony is a bigger threat to me and my welfare than North Korea and the NKVD.
Re:Sony vs NKVD (Score:4, Funny)
Especially considering that the NKVD was disbanded in 1946...
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Especially considering that the NKVD was renamed in 1946...
There, fixed that for you.
NKVD = KGB = FSB
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Well, considering that in North Korea it's still 1945, I stand by my original statement.
Sony blaming bad news on N. Korea again? (Score:2)
The Interview movie was determined to be a flop... straight to download it goes.
Sony has some bad talent contracts that drag down the stock value... "published by hackers" instead of "published by PR."
Now, lawsuit wins that can't be collected on... might as well let the "hackers" publish the bad news.
Is Sony really being hacked, or has their PR guy moved to N. Korea for a few months?
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Is this actually legal? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure that if I ran a business and I misrepresented a $4 million deal to my business partners, investors, and/or the general public as being 20 times larger, either my ass would be in jail or I'd be sued into oblivion.
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It looks like a judgment was actually entered for $80m, so saying that you got an $80m judgment is accurate. Now whether you can collect on that judgment is another story. It's possible that they should have informed shareholders of the low likelihood of the judgment being paid, via an SEC filing.
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if they did enter it to the judge at 80( you know, just releasing a press release != giving it to the judge who might throw it out because it's infeasible in the first place) and then side talked a different settlement then its also mockery of the justice system on top of the investor fraud...
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It certainly sounds like grounds for a class action lawsuit by Sony shareholders to me, does anyone here have some shares and a lawyer's phone number?
Defrauding shareholders? (Score:2)
Hotwho? (Score:2)
I can't remember the names of the dead moles because new moles keep popping up too fast.
Settlements != justice (Score:2)
This is another example of how settlements can work against the public interest of justice. This blatant lying may influence other court cases differently to an open judgement.
I think all terms of settlements should be public, for the sake of justice.
Sony in breach of settlement agreement? (Score:2)
It would be interesting if Hotfile could now sue Sony for releasing details of their confidential settlement.
Slashdot moderator system broken (Score:2)
I've got mod points but won't be using them.
Why?
Because the system isn't working. Check the number of comments rated 5 on this thread. How many are basically the same comment? I had to scroll down towards the very end to find a different and valuable comment.
There are too many moderator points sloshing around.
I'd be happy with 2 points only on about the same timeframe as I've been getting five points.
Limewire (Score:2)
This is the same people that tried to sue Limewire for Trillions of dollars, is anyone surprised? I didn't see any mention of that settlement in the summary, but I believe it was eventually in the 10's of millions of dollars, and I remember thinking, that even that value was pointless, as they will never see any real part of that, as with any civil lawsuit, if they can't pay it, it is rather moot. It might as well have been for a Bazillion dollars for their ability to pay it.
In most reasonable cases, the pl