Cops 101: NYC High School Teaches How To Behave During Stop-and-Frisk 481
HughPickens.com writes Kate Briquelet reports in the NY Post that Principal Mark Federman of East Side Community HS has invited the New York Civil Liberties Union to give a two-day training session to 450 students on interacting with police. "We're not going to candy-coat things — we have a problem in our city that's affecting young men of color and all of our students," says Federman.
"It's not about the police being bad. This isn't anti-police as much as it's pro-young people ... It's about what to do when kids are put in a position where they feel powerless and uncomfortable." The hourlong workshops — held in small classroom sessions during advisory periods — focused on the NYPD's stop-and-frisk program and how to exercise Fourth Amendment rights when being stopped and questioned in a car or at home.
Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice. "It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs," says Eugene O'Donnell, a former police officer and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. NYCLU representatives told kids to be polite and to keep their hands out of their pockets. But they also told students they don't have to show ID or consent to searches, that it's best to remain silent, and how to file a complaint against an officer. Candis Tolliver, NYCLU's associate director for advocacy, says was the first time she trained an entire high school. "This is not about teaching kids how to get away with a crime or being disrespectful. This is about making sure both sides are walking away from the situation safe and in control."
Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice. "It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs," says Eugene O'Donnell, a former police officer and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. NYCLU representatives told kids to be polite and to keep their hands out of their pockets. But they also told students they don't have to show ID or consent to searches, that it's best to remain silent, and how to file a complaint against an officer. Candis Tolliver, NYCLU's associate director for advocacy, says was the first time she trained an entire high school. "This is not about teaching kids how to get away with a crime or being disrespectful. This is about making sure both sides are walking away from the situation safe and in control."
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
How not to get your @ass kicked when you get pulled over by the police - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v... [youtube.com]
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yay typo!
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I just assumed you were talking to a gimmick twitter account who posts nothing but 140 character fart noises.
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kicked or capped?
Notice how LEOs assume they are criminals (Score:5, Insightful)
Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice.
So wait, we're assuming that they're all criminals to begin with?
Notice how LEOs assume they are criminals (Score:2)
Of course, if you have nothing to hide you have no need for knowledge other than "Do what we tell you to do. We're always right.
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Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice.
So wait, we're assuming that they're all criminals to begin with?
Welcome to post-1984 USA. Now take off your shoes and drop your pants and be prepared to show your papers.
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Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice.
So wait, we're assuming that they're all criminals to begin with?
The even more peculiar conclusion that can be drawn from this is that these "law-enforcement experts" think there's something wrong with offering criminal defense advice in the first place.
Re:Obligatory (Score:4, Insightful)
You forgot...
4) Profit!!
Re:Obligatory (Score:4, Insightful)
The issue is with number two. (2) Follow their orders and do not become combative.). Following orders which are not legal, and are unconstitutional, out of fear for personal safety means that we are literally living in a Police state. Yes we know it is illegal, but he might kill you for pointing it out to him... The issue is so systemically out of control that it needs much more than advice on how not to get killed by cops.
Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:4, Insightful)
"If your rights are violated you deal with it later"
What exactly do you gain by consenting to an illegal request of a power they do not have? Subservience only reinforces their grandstanding and power playing. Ignorance of the law on the side of the police is not an excuse, just as ignorance of law among a civilian is no excuse.
Re:Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:4, Insightful)
You gain not being shot or tazed, hopefully.
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and that fear is how rights are eroded as expectations change
Re:Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:5, Insightful)
"If your rights are violated you deal with it later"
What exactly do you gain by consenting to an illegal request of a power they do not have?
Not get killed? Live for another day where you can fight for legal remedy, and hopefully create a legal precedent that will prevent such violations in the future?
Subservience only reinforces their grandstanding and power playing.
This is all bravado from your part. Until you have actually dealt with situations like that, face to face, you ought to temper it and think a little.
There are moments in life when it is appropriate to disobey a law and deal with the consequences (see Rosa Park or Gandhi, or recently Arnold Abbott [nydailynews.com]).
This is specially true if violations of your rights (or your "violation" of an unjust law) is done in public, to bring awareness to a just cause. This is particularly true when violations are the manifestation of egregious institutions (colonialism, institutionalized racism, to less diabolical but still egregious ones such as laws preventing feeding of homeless [nydailynews.com].
Here, you, the generic "you", are full aware of it, and you have a made a decision to take the hit for a greater cause. On the other hand, there are times to play possum, in particular if violation of your rights just happen because you are there on the wrong time, being incidental of you just being you, without you planning to take the hit for a greater cause.
You coming from an event and getting arrested because "you" look the profile [dailymail.co.uk], or getting handcuffed while picking up your kids [theatlantic.com] because you look suspicious, even when teachers are vouching for you. Etc, etc.
In such cases when you are just living your daily life, play possum, litigate later. This is specially true when you have family that depends on you.
Telling other people to go martyr just because it sounds good and right, that's just unhelpful bravado. This has nothing to do with doing the right thing, but everything to do with making a post where you sound brave and rightful.
Ignorance of the law on the side of the police is not an excuse, just as ignorance of law among a civilian is no excuse.
None of that justifies telling other people to escalate things when in a position of vulnerability. This is not a comic book, and you are not GI Joe.
Learn to pick your battles, and you pick them, learn how to fight and win them.
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"If your rights are violated you deal with it later"
What exactly do you gain by consenting to an illegal request of a power they do not have?
That wasn't in the post you're replying to. If the cops order you to do something, such as turn over your ID or give them your bag, you politely say "I do not consent to this, but I will not resist" and do as ordered. File your complaints and lawsuits later. You can't negotiate with the guy with the gun.
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"Comply" does not equal "consent".
Make it absolutely clear that you do not consent to illegal searches or other orders, but remain entirely passive throughout the encounter. If Officer Friendly finds something in an illegal search, it makes it that much easier for your lawyer to get it thrown out. If Officer Friendly breaks your arm throwing you against a car to violently frisk you, it makes it that much easier f
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Yep, this is the way to go. (Score:4, Interesting)
Their first concern is to not get shot in the head. Teaching kids that they need to obey lawful orders and recognize unlawful ones is the right approach. If your rights are violated you deal with it later, not when a nervous person holding a gun is telling you what to do.
This. Specially for inexperienced teenagers who, for whatever fucksake reasons (biological maturity, society, etc) might (will) lack the social, communication and cognitive skills for de-escalation and negotiation that adults (should/typically) have.
Consent and litigate later, or know how to not consent without getting killed. OTH, if a 200+lbs person in a position of power wants to strangle a 100lbs handcuffed crying teenager on the back of his patrol car, there is nothing that kid can do.
^^^ And I say this because I witnessed it on a park right in front of my house. I was sitting on a bench in front of my house near a tree when a patrol car stopped there (some investigation going on, whatever.) The car parked, the officer, a gorilla of a man, got out of the driver's seat, went to the back and started chocking the shit out of this kid.
He stopped when his partner nodded to him that there were people (me) watching. They took off, God knows where.
I'm not making this shit up, and this was with my house in one of the supposedly nice, upper middle class neighborhoods in South Florida. Just imagine the type of crap that occurs in less affluent neighborhoods.
Re:Wouldn't time be better spent... (Score:4, Informative)
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No, just when they're committed by people with guns in positions of power.
That would exclude people without guns in a position of power. I know where you are coming from, but you better polish the logic you use to structure your arguments if you really want to make clear, precise points.
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... teaching the cops how not to alienate the people?
Or teaching criminals to stop shooting at cops?
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... teaching the cops how not to alienate the people?
No, for two reasons.
First stop and frisk is based on the "broken windows" theory, which in general is sound: people take behavioral cues from what they perceive as social norms. If they look around and see people breaking windows and jumping turnstyles they'll figure everyuone does it. But stop and frisk plus being "proactive" is a case of two ideas getting together and having a bastard child. Instead of signalling what the social norms are by keeping the streets orderly, the cops are singling out indivi
Completely unrelated... (Score:2)
I like your point, but the "Broken Window" theory is an false argument. The gist being that if you break a window, the glass maker must make a new pane of glass, the delivery man must carry the window, the carpenter must install the window, etc... and thus economic value is created by the breaking of the window.
It is false because the economy has not created new value, instead significant effort is being spent on existing value. The opportunity cost here is that the same effort could have been spent on crea
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Incentives matter (Score:2)
Regardless of how correct it is for cops not to alienate the people, the benefits atthe moment would mainly accrue to someone else so there is not much motivation to get it right.
On the other hand, knowing how to defend your rights without providing something that looks like probable cause to the cop reaps rewards immediately, and in the long term will provide incentives to the cop (in avoiding the wrath of the DA for cases through out for technicalities).
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We could send them through something called "training" before we let them loose on the streets. Where can I collect my Nobel Prize?
Training? (Score:2)
We could send them through something called "training" before we let them loose on the streets. Where can I collect my Nobel Prize?
Wow! Training eliminates racism? Training gets rid of stupid racists laws? Training solves economic and social inequality? How did we never think of this before...[/sarcasm]
Re:Training? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nope.
Obama got his peace prize for not being George Bush.
However it does seem that he got it under false pretences, as he seems to be George's harder working brother.
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Nope.
Obama got his peace prize for not being George Bush.
However it does seem that he got it under false pretences, as he seems to be George's harder working brother.
He talks smoother, the skin's darker. But the ears are a giveaway!
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All you need to do to win a Nobel Peace Prize is two things: 1) have dark skin 2) Continue various wars against defenseless nations
There. FTFY.
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Eh, you can just SAY you'll do something good in a few to get your nobel peace prize. Worked for Obama.
BS. He got the prize for Not Being Bush.
A container of yogurt could have done as much.
It doesn't both (Score:2)
er me that much.
You started your comment in the body. (Score:2)
And finished it in the subject line.
Which is incredibly annoying but is nothing like the other way round.
It's very simple... (Score:2)
And so? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice.
Which is apparently necessary.
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Are these law-enforcement experts OK with nervous kids getting shot or killed by another nervous guy with a gun and badge? Where's the common sense here?
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
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Wealth seems to be a larger social stratus than culture. Not to mention that dense populations lose peer pressure because people simply don't know each other.
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I grew up in NYC and was there during the blackout... I overall have to disagree with your sentiment. If there is distrust among strangers is simply due to sheer number rather than diversity. If you're constantly surrounded by 20-30 people you will find a quality in at least one of them untrustworthy.
Re:It's more of a statement about NYC (Score:4, Insightful)
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The ugly truth about NYC is that it would be ungovernable without a very large and powerful police force because it's an extremely diverse and class stratified city.
It seems that the above would also apply to London, yet we manage to get along with a (largely) unarmed police force, so I'm not buying it.
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Is London as diverse as NYC?
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Sad (Score:2)
Just in one word. sad.
fight it out in court (Score:5, Insightful)
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So, the suggestion is that we should allow the police to illegally stop and search us until we can be in a safer environment to tell them they're doing something illegal?
No, sorry.
I propose something else: all police wear cameras and audio recording 100% of the time, and a zero tolerance for police who do not adhere to
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I propose something else: all police wear cameras and audio recording 100% of the time, and a zero tolerance for police who do not adhere to the law, and dismissal/criminal charges are the outcome. Any police officer who turned off his recording stuff is presumed to be lying.
Remove the ability to turn the cameras off. Same with the ability to erase what has been recorded. Anything less than that is just inviting abuse.
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That's way more depressing than it is useful. Just cooperate to the extent you are required to by law, and no more, and the amount of hassle will be kept to a minimum. Even a psychopath won't shoot you for being too quiet.
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You can not talk yourself out of a ticket, a questionable search, an arrest or a beating, but comply and assert your rights while trying to dial
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So some of his co-workers are psychotic murderers, but the rest of the cops are "great guys" who won't kill you themselves, but they will definitely help cover up your murder. I'm sorry, but if you know your co-worker is a murderer, you're not a "great guy" if you aren't trying to stop him.
Effective Lessons (Score:2, Insightful)
"It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs," says Eugene O'Donnell, a former police officer and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
Then the lessons are effective and teaching exactly what they need to teach.
Evolving world... (Score:5, Insightful)
There are a good deal of "common sense" things that haven't seemed to soak into younger generations. Things that someone born in the 70's, 80's and 90's would likely have been exposed to and had been "taught" to some degree or another. The Police force has changed. The same cop may not patrol the same neighborhood 4 or 5 days a week. When they did, they got to know the neighborhood. They knew it's people, who "belonged" there and who didn't. Many lived not-too-far away and lived in a similar neighborhood. The Police and the people understood one another, had common ground. It seems that balance has changed.
If it's not going to go back to something like that, then our youth probably do need to be "taught" how to interact with these authority figures who aren't from their neighborhood, don't know them from the drug-dealer down the street. Until we sort out how to make the Police more local to any place it protects, make them feel like neighbors, then we're not doing the right thing unless we teach the youth how to properly interact with Police, without disrespect for either party. Remember: In the same way a Fireman runs into a burning building; this Officer is going to be running towards the gunfire if there's trouble, not away from it like the average youth on the street.
Bottom Line: If our Police aren't going to also be our neighbors, in our neighborhoods, then we need to re-learn out how interact with them.
Great point, but ..... (Score:2)
Is this really a big factor? I'm just asking because the trend I've witnessed in recent years has been towards ensuring the cops live where they work. The last couple places I've lived, they had special tax credits or break for police officers so they could purchase homes at a discount in the community they worked in.
I can see how police might need a little more time to learn a neighborhood, if they're getting transferred around from department to department -- or if their department is asked to cover a la
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Remember: In the same way a Fireman runs into a burning building; this Officer is going to be running towards the gunfire if there's trouble, not away from it like the average youth on the street.
If my experience with the "youths on the street" in Baltimore is any indication, they'll be running toward the gunfire, fumbling for their cellphone cameras, chanting "World Star Hip Hop".
I agree with stop & frisk... (Score:2)
...mainly because the US African American community has major cultural issues with broken families and an habitual acceptance of criminality that not enough of them are trying to fix internally. HOWEVER:
"...Some law-enforcement experts say the NYCLU is going beyond civics lessons and doling out criminal-defense advice...."
Then "some law-enforcement experts" need to pull their head out of their collective asses and understand that everyone - including cops - knowing who has what rights is a GOOD THING, for
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And the problem is? (Score:2)
"It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs," says Eugene O'Donnell, a former police office
That's the current state of affairs, so it would seem they are teaching exactly what they should be.
On the bright side breaking the law is a good way to have contact with the police and hence one of those costs is to not break the law.
On the less bright side, that means not making contact with the police to report cr
better yet... (Score:2)
Or better yet, teach cops how to engage with citizens without being so aggressive. When a cop comes at you and starts out hostile, you're likely to feel defensive and hostile in return.
Education (Score:2)
It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs
Well, at least they're learning something valuable.
Sounds like a good idea (Score:2)
The police ARE a fearful group to be avoided at all costs. We live in a police state. Or, at least, we live in a country where the police have been militarized to the point that they are dangerous to be around. These days, when they're sending in SWAT teams to collect overdue library books, even a middle-aged, law-abiding, white guy like me needs to be wary of the police.
My daddy taught me what not to do... (Score:2)
Fearful Group To Be Avoided At All Costs (Score:4, Interesting)
"It's unlikely that a high school student would come away with any other conclusion than the police are a fearful group to be avoided at all costs,"
That's EXACTLY what the police are these days and if you claim otherwise you are either a pro-police and pro-police state shill or hopelessly naive about the current state law enforcement and Criminal Justice inAmerica that is more focused on creating criminals so they can imprison people and confiscate property than keeping people safe. I myself am a white guy in my early 40s and have had Criminal Justice delivered unto me. My crime? Stepping outside to my home after a few drinks to talk to a police officer regarding a public disturbance. I was immediately cuffed without cause, hauled off to jail and when I asked why I was arrested, I was choked, stomped on, pinned down by 4 officers and suffocated till I nearly passed out from asphyxiation. I am now facing criminal charges for "public intoxication" and "obstruction of justice". And have to spend several thousand in legal costs to defend myself in court. A very high price to pay for trying to be a good samaritan. So yes -- fear the police And for fucks sake, avoid them at all costs.
Education versus racism (Score:4, Insightful)
Civics classes have been sorely missing from school curriculums and this is exactly the kind of civics information people need.
I have NEVER seen a civics class where how do behave during a police stop was anywhere on the curriculum. I think it is incredibly depressing that something like this is even remotely necessary. And sadly it actually does seem to be necessary. These kids are basically being taught (for good reasons) how to behave safely in the face of institutional racism. Learning how to behave during a stop and frisk should never be necessary. Ever.
Add in some basics on personal freedoms and rights, civic duties, local government, and taxation and you've got an educated populace.
Knowing your rights and knowing how to (safely) go about asserting those rights in front of some racist thug with a gun and a badge are VERY different things.
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These kids are basically being taught (for good reasons) how to behave safely in the face of institutional racism.
Rules of engagement for most situations you will encounter in your adult life:
1) dont be confrontational
2) if you're itching for a fight, you're doing it wrong
3) be respectful
4) always act as if you are on camera and its going on the news
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I agree with the first 3. The problem with #4 is, some people are MORE likely to act like idiots on camera.
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If you follow 1-3) with US police, they will use the Reid Technique to abuse your compliance and extract a false statement. Then you better have the resources of a (no-longer) well-off family and the help of the foreign office of a small nation in order to eventually get freed, like Malthe Thomsen [dailymail.co.uk]. (I hate linking to the Daily Mail, but the case has not been well-covered internationally.)
The newspaper Politiken has in-depth coverage of the case [politiken.dk] in Danish.
Re: Education versus racism (Score:4, Insightful)
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Brand new account. I don't know if you're a good cop or a bad cop, but statistics say you're a bad cop.
Every time you cover for a cop breaking the law, you are breaking the law. You are an accessory to a crime. Every time you don't report a fellow officer for committing a crime, you are an accessory to that crime.
Don't be that cop. Break the cycle. Otherwise, STFU and rot in hell.
Re: Education versus racism (Score:4, Insightful)
Though if we do want to talk stats, we could dip into risk management. Cops are dangerous, when interacting with one there is a non-zero probability that something bad will happen to you. In weighing interactions this can be offset by potential utility if one needs help, but for general interaction there is little to justify the risk, so the police really are best avoided unless you have a reason to be approaching one. It is a sad situation, but the way things are structured right now there is too much of a chance of something going wrong and too few ways to mitigate the risks... you can not even defend yourself or even have the law as a potential threat to discourage them.
Re: Education versus racism (Score:5, Insightful)
As some others have said in more colorful ways, being a good cop means doing everything you can under the law to get bad cops off the street. Bad cops doesn't just mean those taking bribes, planting evidence, etc. Bad cops includes police officers who unnecessarily approach situations with undue aggression and who unnecessarily escalate situations. I understand that much of an officer's interactions are either with people who aren't at their best or are with people who are just pain rotten to the core, but if that drives them into a pattern of cynicism and aggression not warranted by the situation, they can either self-report and get behind a desk and get counseling until their head gets back to a better place or they're bad cops.
I'm a law-abiding citizen. Minus some exceeding the posted speed limit here and there, I'm not causing trouble. I also happen to work late quite a bit, which has led to numerous interactions with the police. Nearly all of those have been completely reasonable where everyone was decent and the situation was handled without any issue (usually just a "why are you here at [late time]?" followed up with a reasonable explanation, maybe running plates, in and out in 3 minutes kind of thing). In a very small number of cases, I was met by an adrenaline-pumped idiot who was very obviously itching to rip me out of the car and beat the Hell out of me. I've been berated and goaded by a cop who was doing everything he could to escalate the situation to where he could take stronger action. As I said, it's a very tiny number of issues out of all the times I've had contact with officers and I've always kept my cool and been in the right to the point where it didn't turn into anything. But all it would take is one of those adrenaline-pumped alpha assholes deciding I looked at him wrong and but for a camera recording the incident, he could very easily write up the report such that I was the aggressor and was threatening toward him and resisted arrest, thereby justifying any injuries. With that report and the word of the sworn officer, I end up with a criminal record and losing everything I've earned in life.
And that's why it doesn't matter if there are 99 good cops for every one bad cop. Because that one bad cop can ruin so many peoples' lives. We as citizens are second-class when we file a report or step into a court room trying to stop a bad cop doing bad stuff. What's really needed are for all those cops who are decent people to start standing up against the ones who aren't, start calling them on their bullshit, start reporting them at work, and start testifying on behalf of people who are wronged by them. I understand that that hyper-aggressive adrenaline junky alpha asshole is great to have by your side when you're under fire, but you have a duty and a responsibility to either see that he gets right in the head or see that he finds a new profession where he doesn't have any legal authority. The more you protect assholes like that, the more of them you'll find around you and the more the citizens in your community will distrust and even hate the police.
I support the good cops out there trying to help good and decent people and do the right thing. As for the bad cops out for a thrill? Well at the very very least, I want them off the streets and getting help. Stop protecting them. Stop protecting people who protect them.
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I have NEVER seen a civics class where how do behave during a police stop was anywhere on the curriculum.
That is because curriculums are always behind the times. In the past there was no need for this sort of education, because in the past police wouldn't stop you without cause. In fact, the information gleaned from a Civics class would probably inform you that such a stop would be illegal. Why should they educate you on how to behave in a situation which should never arise because it is illegal?
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This is the problem - there is subset of individual policemen and entire departments that AREN'T courteous or reasonable. They start out hostile and alienating. The interaction also starts out at an a very unequal power level. When you are placed in this sort of situation, it is much harder (and much more important) to finesse it exactly right.
It can be done, such individuals and departments often aren't the sharpest pencils and with a bit of training and fore thought, you can work around them but it's
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I know it was part of my civics class almost 20 years ago as well.
I also agree, that it should be part of all civics classes. The reason for that class is to make sure that we have an educated populace that understands what our laws AND our rights as citizens are.
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Re:Education versus racism (Score:5, Insightful)
I had parents, I'm white, have a graduate degree, make six figures. I think of the police as mother-fucking-pigs because they are they enforcement side of the Constitution destroying political regime we have. While I realize that I'm not their prime target -- at this point in time -- that doesn't make the police nice or moral people. I see the racial bias stuff as nothing more than the pigs practicing for full on police state, at which point everyone will be a target.
What will cause attitudes toward these assholes to change is when the police stop using SWAT to bust up home poker games, give up the military equipment, and start trying to _serve_ their community rather looking at us like enemies. The problem starts with the cops and the changes have to start in the pig stye.
school curriculums? (Score:2)
The plural of curriculum is curricula .
It is Latin.
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In what ways do today's men behave like women that you'd like to stop, and in what ways do today's women behave like men?
How would you like to see men and women behave differently?
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How about morals class? Teach people to how to respect one another and treat others the way they'd like to be treated themselves. Let's encourage strong families that stay together and teach kids to respect their elders. And let's teach today's men to stop behaving like women and today's women to stop behaving like men while we're at it.>>>>>> If the moral fabric of society keeps falling apart, we are doomed.
[Emphasis Added]
And who gets to decide which is which? You? That kind of bigoted twaddle isn't so different from the racism being discussed here.
What is more, morality is an individual thing. Many people share similar attitudes and ideas about good ways to live. But morality is sum total of the choices you make when faced with situations that call for a moral choice (e.g., I found a wallet. Do I return it with or without the cash that was in it?). Your morality is not my morality, and mine isn't any
Re: Gestapo (Score:2)
We are talking about skin color. Not "ethnic" or "colored" or "negro" or "people of color" or "African American". The appropriate term, IMO, being inoffensive and also accurate to the topic, would be "black".
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Well it's not so much hate as disrespect and a lot of cops seem to feel that a gun and a badge gives them a god-given right to push people around.
Trust (Score:3)
It sounds like cops hate anyone who is not a cop.
Hate is probably the wrong word for most cops but it would be fair to say cops don't trust anyone who isn't a cop. Cops tend to (understandably) have an us versus them world view and see everyone's actions as those of a potential suspect. Apply a bit of low grade racism and you have a real problem with police distrusting a minority population and the minority population growing to distrust the police.
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Cops tend to (understandably) have an us versus them world view and see everyone's actions as those of a potential suspect.
What? Why is that understandable? You could say that it's understandable that waiters have an us-vs-them worldview. Or IT support. Or musicians. Or doctors. Or ANY group of people that interacts with anyone else in a professional capacity. [viruscomix.com] And all of it is bullshit tribalism that makes for shitty services.
Hate is probably the wrong word for most cops but it would be fair to say cops don't trust anyone who isn't a cop. ... Apply a bit of low grade racism and you have a real problem with police distrusting a minority population and the minority population growing to distrust the police.
Hell, I'm a pasty-ass cracker from upper-middle society and I distrust the police. I know that I can afford a lawyer that means a whole swath of laws actually apply to the police during their interactions
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Good trolling effort, but a bit too obvious. Better luck next time.
Yah wow, I mean if you're going to telegraph it, might as well go for trolling gold! Don't you have some unusually inflammatory opinions about Apple, Obama, copyrights, Edward Snowden, gamergate, race relations, SCO, systemd, climate change, and Israel?
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Thats definitely the obvious conclusion, but I'm not so sure. The way I see it, people of all kind get arrested every day. You generally only hear about certain ethnic or social groups (its not just about color) getting unfairly arrested in the news, while my friends, most of which are not in those groups (statistics and all...), also complain about being arrested for no good reason all the time.
But generally, a well educated, upstanding citizen will just grind their teeth, and say "Yes sir, grrr, of course
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In your estimation the ACLU informing these kids about their rights as civilians is wrong? Clearly you have something at stake in this debate, and should be forthcoming in your comments as such.
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Yes, police are there to enforce laws, but I would argue to differ on that they are there to protect you. They are there to protect society in general, not necessarily you, and the powers they have only allow them to really put you in jail (or taz you and put you in jail, or shoot you and put you in jail, or shoot you and put you in a grave). That is really the extent of their power.
If you don't believe me, go read the miranda rights. By talking and intera
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I know this advice, but I wound up not following it, and it turned out okay for me -- in one situation. I wish we could come around to a policing culture where every story could end like this one. Sadly, we don't, and in many places the police have made themselves out to be the enemy.
***
I got hungry for a burrito one night at midnight in Tucson (a city of about 800,000; mixed white/Hispanic). Good thing, too, since there was a burrito shop three blocks down the road. I was reading an e-book on my netbook, s
Re:police are good (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Race baiters (Score:5, Insightful)
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That was my first reaction too. I don't live in NYC but remember that the new mayor made a big deal about stopping Stop and Frisk. Looking at Wikipedia [wikipedia.org], it looks like de Blasio only promised to "reform" the program. Stop and Frisk was reduced but still happens (mostly in Latino and African-American neighborhoods).
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The simplest solution would be to teach brown and black cultures that crime is not acceptable. Instead of celebrating, encouraging, and enabling crime, these cultures should stigmatize it. Teach children that it is a life-ruining mistake. Expose the "snitches get stitches" mentality for what it really is -- passive, silent support for crime in your community. Let children know that criminals are the bad guys.
Black and brown cultures have integrated crime to the point where it is seen as a legitimate way to support yourself or your family, while completely failing to observe that crime is hard to keep up as you get older, has severe ramifications for your employment once you stop being a criminal, and is not a stable, reliable way to generate income. It isn't even an option; engaging in crime is the point at which your strategy towards life has failed.
As long as these cultures handle crime as a rite of passage and as an acceptable alternative to legal employment, their youths will continue to be hounded by the police. And when you look at how such an overwhelmingly large amount of crime is caused by these groups, you can see why law enforcement seeks them out. When 99% of young black men are murdered by young black men, the police will stop and frisk young black men. It's that simple.
There's a reason we don't hear about Chinese people being targeted by the stop-and-frisk policy, and that's because their culture rejects crime. This issue isn't about the police, or current laws, it's about culture. Cultures that embrace and support crime will always be at odds with law enforcement.
Can we talk about the culture of crime that exists among rich white men in the financial industry? It seems that some of them have integrated crime to the point where it is seen as a legitimate way to support yourself or your family. Perhaps some of these brown and black people should call up the prosecutor working on their cases to tell him to stop the investigation. You know, like Jamie Dimon did [rollingstone.com]. Maybe then they wouldn't be stopped and frisked like rich white criminals are not stopped and frisked. T