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Government Television The Internet

Worcester Mass. City Council Votes To Keep Comcast From Entering the Area 232

First time accepted submitter _AustinPowell writes Comcast wants a cable television license in Worcester, Massachusetts. In response, the City Council voted 8-3 to urge Worcester's city manager to let the company's license request die. The deadline for the decision is Wednesday, but the manager is not bound by the vote of the Council. "It's a terrible company," City Councilor Gary Rosen said. "In my opinion, they should not be welcome in this city. Comcast is a wolf in wolf's clothing; it's that bad."
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Worcester Mass. City Council Votes To Keep Comcast From Entering the Area

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  • Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:27PM (#48155559)

    Comcast is a wolf in wolf's clothing; it's that bad. - Gary Rosen, City Councilor

    • Hitler (Score:5, Funny)

      by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:59PM (#48155803) Homepage Journal

      friend of mine posted today:

      Instead of posting a long-winded screed about how I loathe Comcast, I'll just say this: If I had two bullets and found myself in a room with Comcast, Hitler, and Osama bin Laden - I would shoot Comcast. Twice.

      • by PRMan ( 959735 )
        LOL. That's so awesome.
      • by F34nor ( 321515 )

        Instead of bitching just buy them out. If Kickstarter would go to 5 billion we could do it there but it doesn't. Just get households to spend their $150 a month of stock instead and shut down their account in 2 years at a steady stock price we would own it be able to vote in our own board. If everyone turns off their account it will go much faster and at an increasing rate then BAM! User owned coop. Fuck regulation, it doesn't work. Fuck the FCC. Hate fuck Comcast to death.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by saloomy ( 2817221 )
      No, No No No!!!! It doesn't matter if they are a wolf in wolf's clothing! They have a service to sell, and users should be free to to use it if they so choose.
      What we should be against is any subsidization, special treatment, or monopolistic practices, always rooted in government. It is a fact, that monopolies can only exist for any great length of time with the help of a government law or regulation insuring their monopolistic status (with only one notable exception: The London DeBeers Corporation) . A mo
      • Re:Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jane Q. Public ( 1010737 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @08:24PM (#48155959)

        No, No No No!!!! It doesn't matter if they are a wolf in wolf's clothing! They have a service to sell, and users should be free to to use it if they so choose.
        ...
        These councils need to get out of the business of "selecting" the internet provider and let the free market run its course. The outcome will always be what the customers choose, which is usually a variety of competitors, and thats a good thing!

        Sorry, but just no.

        The problem is that the regulators are mis-regulating, and as a result usually consumers have NO choice... they get the one company in their area, and that's it.

        It is not reasonable to expect "market forces" to promote competition, when there is no actual market. Comcast and Time Warner Cable have divided up most of the U.S. between themselves, and voluntarily choose not to compete in their respective areas. That's illegal anti-competitive practice, but as I say: the regulators haven't been regulating. Hell, Comcast even practically BRAGGED about it to the FCC, claiming that a merger would not hurt competition because they're not competing anyway.

        If you want consumer market choices to choose the winner, the way they normally would, then you must have a genuine competitive market first. End of story. When it doesn't exist -- like today -- Adam Smith's "invisible hand" doesn't work.

        In my area, a City committee votes annually on whether to "allow competition" in the cable market. Every year they have voted it down. I am willing to bet there are kickbacks involved, but I don't have proof.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Obfuscant ( 592200 )

          The problem is that the regulators are mis-regulating, and as a result usually consumers have NO choice... they get the one company in their area, and that's it.

          So, of course, it is better for the consumer to have NO company in their area.

          Comcast and Time Warner Cable have divided up most of the U.S. between themselves, and voluntarily choose not to compete in their respective areas. That's illegal anti-competitive practice,

          No, it is not. They aren't keeping anyone else from competing, they've just made a reasonable business decision that it would not be profitable for one of them to compete with the other in an already built area, or to try building out at the same time. It's not profitable for two companies to build out the same area and wind up with only half the potential customers. Fixed costs are the same, spread over half the customers, mean

          • Re:Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Damarkus13 ( 1000963 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @09:51PM (#48156335)

            It's not profitable for two companies to build out the same area and wind up with only half the potential customers. Fixed costs are the same, spread over half the customers, meaning the prices go up. Your desire to be able to choose would mean that everyone would pay more for the same service, not less.

            This is why the last mile infrastructure should not be owned by ISPs. Or, they should be required to lease access at regulated rates.

            • Re: Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 16, 2014 @01:16AM (#48156965)

              I have 20+ different companies that I can buy electricity from. They compete on price, incentives, peak/off-peak hours and rates, and efficiency rebates. I have one physical connection to the grid maintained by a highly regulated monopoly utility.

              That's exactly how I wish my internet worked.

          • Re:Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Thursday October 16, 2014 @12:04AM (#48156811)

            No, it is not. They aren't keeping anyone else from competing, they've just made a reasonable business decision that it would not be profitable for one of them to compete with the other in an already built area, or to try building out at the same time.

            There's no "business decision" involved in this. In most of the U.S., it's the municipal government (usually city, sometimes county) which awards exclusive cable TV service rights to a single company. Usually it was in exchange for a guarantee that lower income areas would get service (i.e. we'll give you a monopoly, but in exchange you have to provide service to 99.5% of the residences, including lower income areas). But in the last city I lived in it was a straight payola deal. The city let the cable companies bid on how much they'd pay the city per residence hooked up, and the highest bidder got the monopoly.

            In the few areas with two or more cable companies, the second cable company usually had to butter up the local politicians ("donate" to their campaigns, aka pay bribes) or even file lawsuits to get rights to provide service. Some courts have ruled that the monopoly contracts the city entered are binding. Others have ruled that the city had no business granting a monopoly, and allowed other cable companies to provide service (that happened in the city I lived in prior to the one getting payola - the existing cable company dropped their prices $10/mo across the board the moment the second cable company announced they would begin providing service).

            See, that's the dark side of Net Neutrality, and why free market types (conservatives, liberterians) generally oppose it. It's more government regulation to fix a problem caused by government regulation in the first place. If you're going to award monopolies to cable companies, then you need Net Neutrality. But if like most of the rest of the world you just let multiple cable companies compete freely with each other, you don't need Net Neutrality. Any ISP deliberately slowing down Netflix to try to get Netflix to pay them is shooting themselves in the foot - their customers will flee to other ISPs who don't slow down Netflix.

            On a meta level, you initially want competition for cable service. Yes it's wasteful to have multiple hookups, but when the technology first rolls out, nobody is really which which implementation is the best (both in terms of cost and bandwidth). This is the sort of problem markets solve really well. So you want lots of cable companies competing to provide service, so that the ones with the best technology filter up to the top. Once the technology matures though, you want to treat it like a utility. One company is awarded a monopoly for rolling out the cables. But they're prohibited from providing service themselves - instead they must sell at a fixed rate to companies which provide the service.

            This is pretty much how it was done with electricity. At first nobody was sure if AC or DC transmission would win out. So private companies implemented both types of systems (Edison backing DC, Westinghouse/Tesla backing AC). Eventually it became clear that AC was better for transmitting over long distances. Most municipalities grant the local power company a monopoly over providing and maintaining the electrical wires, but you can usually buy the electricity transmitted over those wires to your house from dozens of different energy providers. Gas and long distance telephone service works the same way. By this point I think it's pretty clear cable TV/internet is going to all end up with fiber to the home, and we need to transition it over to a utility model.

          • by mwvdlee ( 775178 )

            Fixed costs are the same, spread over half the customers, meaning the prices go up. Your desire to be able to choose would mean that everyone would pay more for the same service, not less.

            You assume the prices of service are based on fixed cost. Profit margins for cable companies are somewhere inbetween 30%-40%.
            There are some numbers floating around saying they have a 97% profit margin. This number is wrong as it lacks all kinds of costs, but the remaining 3% is the fixed cost.
            If their fixed costs would double, they'd still have plenty of profit margin to allow them to compete.

        • by F34nor ( 321515 )

          Natural monopolies acting as oligopolies are anathema to free market capitalism.

        • Comcast and Time Warner did not "voluntarily" choose not to compete. They were each given monopolies in certain areas and then bought up the other companies which had been given monopolies in other areas. Back when cable TV was new, local governments were given the power to limit who could provide cable service int their area. As a result, most local governments (if not all), issued only one permit to provide cable service. The justification for this was that cable TV was a "natural monopoly". Local jurisd
      • by suutar ( 1860506 )

        So where is this variety of competitors? My area has one cable company and one phone company, which isn't what I would call a 'variety'. Or are you asserting that all the customers in this area are perfectly happy with one of these two? Because I can tell you right now, it isn't so; I would switch to pretty much anyone but Time Warner in a minute.

        • I don't even get to choose between a cable and phone company. I get to choose between ATT and satellite. Three blocks in any direction and they get the choice. This is a recently build neighborhood too. There was a deal struck between ATT and the developer. Bad on me that I didn't investigate that prior to moving in.
      • Re:Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

        by camperdave ( 969942 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @10:13PM (#48156427) Journal
        Actually, what needs to happen is a split between the company providing the cable, and the company providing the signal on that cable.
        • I think that is a great for many networks but you can't have a different cable provider to your neighbors without lots of new/redundant infrastructure as the same RF signal is sent to a huge number of people.
      • Re:Awesome quote (Score:5, Insightful)

        by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @10:21PM (#48156467) Journal

        That is how free markets work. When there is good competition, you have the highest available quality, and the lowest cost, the market will bear.

        If you think that there is anything like a free market in providing TV and Internet to consumers, then I have a bridge to sell you. Other countries have forced the owners of the local loops to offer (at near cost) access to alternative suppliers. This has resulted in competition and far lower prices than in the USA.

        Cable companies have received both direct and indirect subsidies to build out their infrastructure. The chance of an alternative (other than another incumbent) to that is close to zero.

        Why isn't there another company offering to sell electricity or gas to me?

        • Where I live there are several other companies offering to sell electricity to me. One company owns the infrastructure, other companies sell electricity and compete on rates, and other deals like free nights or weekends. I pay significantly less here than I did where I lived before. On the other hand, when I firsts got DSL, I had the option of several different ISPs. That is no longer the case.
      • Being free to join Comcast is like being free to join ISIS, except that Comcast hates Americans more.

      • I love how all of the people disagreeing with you tell you that the problem is that there is no competition in cable, so therefore this city council is right to refuse to allow competition in its area. I have trouble following that logic.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:28PM (#48155569)
    What the hell sense does this make? I thought the current groupthink is that that these ISP's have monopolies. I fail to see how this helps.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:57PM (#48155783)

      If you bothered to RTFA, you would know that Comcast is buying up Charter's licenses in central Massachusetts. They wish to buy it for this city too. This does not add any competition.

      • and it's not just that... Charter is very competitive. Their rates are usually a lot lower than the likes of Comcast and Time Warner. Don't get me wrong, their service is just as awful as everyone else but their rates are pretty damned good. If they let Comcast come in, their rates would definitely go up. That being said... who's going to buy up the franchise?

        Full disclosure: Charter is my ISP

    • Monopoly player 1 (Comcast) is attempting to purchase the monopoly franchise from monopoly player 2 (Charter). Unfortunately for them, the city council has a say in whether or not they can do so.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Obfuscant ( 592200 )

        Monopoly player 1 (Comcast) is attempting to purchase the monopoly franchise from monopoly player 2 (Charter).

        Neither company has a dejure monopoly. Comcast has already purchased the license.

        Unfortunately for them, the city council has a say in whether or not they can do so.

        No, if you RTFA you'll see that the city manager has the say and can ignore the council if he wishes.

        In response, the Council voted 8-3 to urge Worcester's city manager to let the company's license request die. The deadline for the decision is Wednesday, but the manager is not bound by the vote of the Council.

        TFA also says that if the license transfer request "dies", Comcast will simply appeal the decision and will almost ce

  • Want to disconnect? Well fuck you, I'm a Wolf!
  • Comcast may be "a terrible company," but this is still very worrisome.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:35PM (#48155623)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • by BitterOak ( 537666 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @08:07PM (#48155863)

        Yea, how dare a city have any say in what goes on within the city!

        I think the point is, it should be the consumers who get to decide, not the city government.

        • How the Hell are the consumers supposed to decide? "You guys are terrible! I'm getting my internet service from another cable company!"

      • Yea, how dare a city have any say in what goes on within the city!

        So if a city council decides to issue an exclusive franchise, or to issue only one franchise, for a cable television system they are BAD BAD BAD for creating a monopoly, but if they try to keep the only cable company that wants to be in their town out they are GOOD GOOD GOOD for "having a say in what goes on within the city?" How is the former action not "having a say in what goes on within the city"?

        Of course, this city council doesn't have a say, it is the city manager who decides. And he's really got

    • As opposed to when the government gives them a local monopoly?

      • As opposed to when the government gives them a local monopoly?

        Unless you know the content of the Wooster/Charter franchise agreement, you don't know the government has given them a local monopoly.

      • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

        I'm seeing a pattern here.

        Somehow, I don't think that the mindset that got us into this mess is capable of getting us out of it.

    • by hawk ( 1151 )

      If we made every "terrible company" stop doing business . . .

      *shudder*

      hawk

      • by sjames ( 1099 )

        The market would open up for less terrible companies to move in?

        • The market would open up for less terrible companies to move in?

          If I operated a company and was looking at moving into an area, and found out that the local government had the power to shut down companies based on some arbitrary definition of "terrible", I'd think more than twice about going there. Why should I invest in opening a new store if someone can get a bug up their ass and get the local city council to shut me down because I'm "terrible"? Even the best companies have customers who think they are terrible.

          The government should not be in the business of defini

          • by sjames ( 1099 )

            Actually, it SHOULD define terrible quite explicitly so you can judge if you would ever meet the criteria. It is already done to some extent. If you are terrible enough it becomes criminal.

            At some point terrible crosses the line to fraud and costs a lot of people a lot of money for crappy service or no service at all. Do you suggest we let every would be fly-by-nighter have at it?

    • by unitron ( 5733 )

      The government already picked a winner years ago, just like they did with electrical service, natural gas service where offered, and telephone service, when it first allowed a cable company use of the right of way to either bury wires or string them on poles (or bury pipes in the case of a gas company).

      Once one company is in that position, the economics of another one coming along and also running wires in order to maybe get some of the first company's customers to switch over is usually considered unlikely

    • Meh. On a notional level, I agree: regulate to prevent monopolies and safety hazards (etc) but otherwise let the market decide, the more competition the better. But this little town council doesn't have the power to effect meaningful legislation or regulation of a behemoth like Comcast. They can't break up monopolies or rain down 3-letter agencies.

      They do have a choice in not granting what they consider a malevolent hellcorp the license to service their town. That's not The Government picking winners
  • In short... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:32PM (#48155603)

    and from the article,
      - City Manager can ignore council vote.
      - Comcast would appeal license denial and apparently would likely win it (why exactly?)

    So really, the 'peoples' voice in all this is essentially irrelevant. Why does this sound wholly, unAmerican?

    • by sabri ( 584428 )

      the 'peoples' voice in all this is essentially irrelevant.

      Vote with your money.

      • Re:In short... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mjm1231 ( 751545 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:50PM (#48155729)

        Yep, that's the current system. Of course, since 1% of the people have 90% of the money, most likely your vote doesn't count for much.

        • Yep, that's the current system. Of course, since 1% of the people have 90% of the money, most likely your vote doesn't count for much.

          So you're saying that the evil rich 1% of the residents of the city who would "vote" for Comcast and keep the service they have would be enough to keep Comcast in the area? They'd have to buy an AWFUL lot of cable services to do that. While Comcast's prices for service are high, I don't think a 1% saturation would keep them in the black.

          • No, silly, they don't buy "cable service," they buy stock and politicians and end up with more money than they started with.

          • They'd have to buy an AWFUL lot of cable services to do that.

            No. They would instead invest into the company and then shove AWFUL service down your throat to turn profit.

      • by SeaFox ( 739806 )

        Vote with your money.

        Yes, that's exactly what Comcast is going to do -- by giving a bunch of money to the only person who really matters in this whole thing -- the City Manager.

    • by Lumpy ( 12016 )

      City manager can be fired by the city council. Problem is most councils dont have the balls to do it.
      City managers are low skill people that cant make it in the Corporate world. They are a dime a dozen.

      • by mellon ( 7048 )

        Um. No. My town, pop. 13k, had a really great town manager who retired. I know she was really great because I saw what she did. Replacing her was hard. And that's a small town. City manager is a hard job. Of course, you can get a corrupt city manager who does a bad job, but to do the job well requires a lot of skill and dedication.

    • and from the article,

      - City Manager can ignore council vote.

      - Comcast would appeal license denial and apparently would likely win it (why exactly?)

      So really, the 'peoples' voice in all this is essentially irrelevant. Why does this sound wholly, unAmerican?

      The law allows the city to block a license transfer (that's what's happening here) only if the city can make the case that the transferee (Comcast) doesn't have the capability or resources to run the system. In other words, if Charter wanted to transfer the license to Bob's Cable Hut and Bait Shop, which had total financial resources of $83 in a checking account and had only Bob as an employee, the transfer could be blocked. While people may not LIKE Comcast, there's no doubt that they are fully capable o

  • No, they didn't (Score:5, Informative)

    by _xeno_ ( 155264 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @07:41PM (#48155667) Homepage Journal

    Well, I was about to post this to the Firehose submission in the hopes that it wouldn't be posted because this is basically a non-story. It means nothing.

    As Ars Technica's version makes clear [arstechnica.com] this is absolutely meaningless: Comcast will almost certainly be allowed to take over for Charter over the city council's objections because they don't actually have the power to prevent it. It's local political theater and nothing more.

    • by PRMan ( 959735 )
      They should reject it and spend the appeal time installing a free mesh network downtown.
    • Re:No, they didn't (Score:4, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @08:23PM (#48155955)
      True, but it's nice when Americans get reminded just how powerless they really are. Maybe a few more of these and we'll start cracking down on corruption again. For example, that City Manager is almost certainly about to lose his job... and walk right into a nice gig with Comcast. There was a time in the 70s when we threw people in jail for that.
      • Meh, this is modern America. If you work in the public sector and don't plan your retirement by working for corporations you helped secure contracts, you aren't planning for your future.

  • by bengoerz ( 581218 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @08:01PM (#48155819)
    This is on the heels of the City Council in Lexington, KY voting recently to oppose the Comcast/Time Warner merger.

    Story on Ars: http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/10/kentucky-city-threatens-to-block-comcasttime-warner-cable-merger/ [arstechnica.com]
  • This act of civil disobedience has been funded by Charter Communications, small town USA's favorite Internet service monopoly.

    • I really doubt it, given that Charter is the one SELLING the system to Comcast.

      • It was a joke. I would have used a different company, but a quick search showed them be the only broadband provider there.

  • by dmomo ( 256005 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @08:50PM (#48156103)

    I live in Worcester, and have been a Charter customer for five years. When their Internet connection is working it's great. It's fast, and I have no complaint.

    This isn't a "bash Charter" thread, so I won't go into the details, but lets just say that the service drops much more than I can sometimes stand. When it does that , there's no telling when it will come back. The reliability of my Internet connection and their poor customer service would have prompted me to drop them by now if I could. I had Comcast before.. they've got their pros and cons too, but I wish I could at least have a choice to leave this monopoly.

    Now, this might border on gossip, but I did get chatty with a Charter service tech who visited my home. I was venting to him and cursing the monopoly Charter has in the area. He told me that Charter had a deal with the City where all schools would get free service in exchange for an exclusivity deal. So no Comcast, no FIOS. I cannot verify this, but it is an interesting anecdote given what's going on.

    • by mrmagos ( 783752 )

      Many carriers have such exclusivity deals with municipalities, Comcast included. This is why there's little to no competition in many areas.

      Also, I wouldn't get your hopes up with any improved service, though I share your sentiment in simply wanting a choice.

    • This sounds to me like a case of two competing corporatocracies that both want exclusive control of a market. There are no 'good guys'.
  • by mi_cuenta ( 523267 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @09:06PM (#48156157) Homepage
    I'm writing this comment over a Comcast provided Internet link, that is supposedly 100Mb, but never gets me more than 6mpbs down, even if downloading from the nearest Comcast hub. Being a Texan with a conservative view, I would like to say it is time to break-up Comcast, and regulate Internet service providers to encourage competition and discourage monopolies.
  • Take that most hated company in America! And good for you Worcester! It took a lot to take the crown from Bank of America but you descended to new levels of badness and a customer service experience that made customers want to kill themselves.

  • by silfen ( 3720385 ) on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @09:53PM (#48156343)

    Next they'll complain that there isn't enough competition in the market. Whatever Comcast may be, if you haphazardly keep companies you don't like from competing, you'll also drive away companies you might like, because no business likes that kind of uncertainty.

    • I understand what you're saying but on the flip side if enough communities say "The Consumerist says you're the worst company in America and we don't want you here" at some point the board of directors and upper management or even the franchise authorities, state and federal consumer watchdogs or other regulatory authorities will take notice and say you guys need to shape up. I swear that every three to six months I find my bills going to by some $2 or $4 charge and my choices are limited as the only other

    • by dltaylor ( 7510 )

      RFTA (I know, I know), but this is NOT about adding competition, it is about Comcast taking over the current Charter franchise, giving Comcast the monopoly on cable service.

  • Seriously, this town should approach Google or WOW and push to have one of them come in.
  • My first thought was, "if the problem is a monopoly, how does keeping a competitor out of the market help?" But then I read the article. Comcast isn't coming in to compete with existing cable and phone services: instead it's doing a deal to swap customers with the existing provider (Charter). Worcester customers will still only have one possible cable provider, it's just going to be Comcast.

    This is such a blatant anticompetitive cartel arrangement that I have no problem with local government blocking the

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