Ukraine Asks Zuckerberg to Discipline Kremlin Facebook Bots 254
mi writes "Ukrainian media is reporting (link in Ukrainian), that Facebook is getting increasingly heavy-handed blocking Ukrainian bloggers. The likely explanation for the observed phenomenon is that Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia and is headed by a Russian citizen (Catherine Skorobogatov). For example, a post calling on Russian mothers to not let their sons go to war was blocked "Due to multiple complaints". Fed up, Ukrainian users are writing directly to Zukerberg to ask him to replace Catherine with someone, who would not be quite as swayed by the "complaints" generated by Russian bots.
Maybe, but maybe not... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah yes, only the most reliable sources at Slashdot...
But anyway, the more likely explanation is that like many social media platforms, Facebook uses automated systems to deal with thousands and thousands of content complaints every day. Usually, after a certain number of complaints, the system automatically blocks the content, and the original poster has to challenge the block. Keep in mind that due to the volume of content complaints that these types of services get, humans rarely get involved in the beginning, it is simply all automated.
It's possible and even probable that the complaints themselves are âoeorchestratedâ by people with political aims, perhaps even government employees. But that doesn't mean that Facebook is somehow âoecooperatingâ with the Russians because the head of their Russian office is, well, Russian.
Re:Maybe, but maybe not... (Score:5, Interesting)
There's definitely a potential problem there, and one that will probably be repeated in similar circumstances in the future. Seems to me that the best thing FB (or anyone else) can do in this situation is to remove oversight for posts made by both sides from regional offices in the area in question and hand them off to more neutral offices, at least for posts concerning the conflict.
Re:Maybe, but maybe not... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Ah yes, only the most reliable sources at Slashdot...
But anyway, the more likely explanation is that like many social media platforms, Facebook uses automated systems to deal with thousands and thousands of content complaints every day. Usually, after a certain number of complaints, the system automatically blocks the content, and the original poster has to challenge the block. Keep in mind that due to the volume of content complaints that these types of services get, humans rarely get involved in the beginning, it is simply all automated.
It's possible and even probable that the complaints themselves are âoeorchestratedâ by people with political aims, perhaps even government employees. But that doesn't mean that Facebook is somehow âoecooperatingâ with the Russians because the head of their Russian office is, well, Russian.
Do you think the censorship effort would be as successful if it were being directed against pro-rebel content?
If not, then there is a legitimate complaint to be made about the partiality of the Russian office.
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Usually, after a certain number of complaints, the system automatically blocks the content, and the original poster has to challenge the block.
Many Facebook users have noted, as I did when I was using it, that political content would often fail to post without explanation. Not only would the URLs fail to thumbnail and link, but I'd actually go back and read my posts and URLs had actually been stripped off of the political content, while the test bullshit I added in to prove the point was still there.
Re:Maybe, but maybe not... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not public pages Russian apologist fag. Suck dick and kill yourself.
Why not have the balls to sign in to your account and say that, troll? I'm only pointing out the obvious, not agreeing or disagreeing with any particular political view.
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I'll agree the GP is just a troll, but unless your real name is Frosty Piss, I don't think you can talk about "having balls".
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I'll agree the GP is just a troll, but unless your real name is Frosty Piss, I don't think you can talk about "having balls".
You may call me Mr. Piss (from the great state of Washington), Mr. Baric. That's Mr. Frosty Piss.
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Where's the problem? For the Ukraine, of course, but for FB?
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Shut the fuck up Russian troll.
Perhaps you might have the balls to log into your account and say that?
I'm not taking a political stance here, only pointing out the way that content complaints work on most social media platforms.
You need to get a grip and behave like an adult if you intend on adding anything of value to the conversation, which your childish comments do not.
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Why? I'm Ukrainian and if I could I would have edited and removed even more stuff than she did. Point is Ukraine is divided, there is more than one opinion. One side thinks that EU will make it stronger, the other thinks that re-uniting with Russia will make it stronger. Overall, your average Ukrainian has a hell of a lot more in common with Russians than with any other European country, it was the same country for hundreds of years after all. Though that kind of varies from region to region, region that is
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re-uniting with Russia will make it stronger.
"rabbit considered whether uniting with the wolf would make him stronger briefly"
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nice, russian trolls - usually anonymous :) :)
for the record, i'm from a country, bordering with russia. i don't know what the usa whitehouse (i assume you meant that one) says much, and we don't need it - we have enough experience with the "friendly" wolf.
kindly find a better occupation than posting pro-terrorussia content.
are you based in st petersburg or did they open new branches ?
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Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you using Facebook... Stop using it and take the power from that twit.
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Would you prefer they use the Kremlin run VK [wikipedia.org]?
Wait.... what? (Score:4, Insightful)
...Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia...
Whose brilliant idea was that?
Re:Wait.... what? (Score:5, Informative)
Probably FB's.
Where's the problem? I mean, for FB. Why should FB care whether Ukraine or Russia is winning the media war? As long as people follow it on FB, FB is winning.
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Probably FB's.
Where's the problem? I mean, for FB. Why should FB care whether Ukraine or Russia is winning the media war? As long as people follow it on FB, FB is winning.
In the short term maybe, but bad PR matters.
If people start associating FB with pro-Russian censorship people will think less positively of FB. Even without any kind of boycott they'll enjoy their time on FB less due to the negative association, as a result they'll use it less and potentially even open the door for a competitor a little bit more.
It's probably not a big deal as far as FB is concerned, but it's certainly not something in their favour.
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I think you give the average FB user far too much credit. It's going to be as usual. Everyone will complain just what kind of un-American asshole or whatever other negative attribute can be mustered FB in general and Zuckerberg in particular is, and the indignation will last exactly until whatever browser game is currently all the craze on FB and their plants need watering, their zombies need feeding or their castles need building.
Face it. People don't give a shit as long as it doesn't cut into their entert
Re:Wait.... what? (Score:5, Informative)
...Why should FB care whether Ukraine or Russia is winning the media war?...
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Russia and Ukraine are engaged in a little bit more than a media war.
.
Last I checked, Russia was invading eastern Ukraine.
I suspect that may bode poorly for a FB office in Russia to properly handle Ukrainian Facebook business.
Re:Wait.... what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is more than a little bit more complicated then that and I would also suggest that the US where anything but very quick when it came to the break up of Yugoslavia.
Firstly as a general rule the existing countries are very very slow to recognise a break-away province as a country in its own right. This can be seen with the Basque in Spain for example. Even Catalan, an autonomous region in Spain is extremely unlikely to become a country in its own right despite being perhaps the most capable. As a whole the status quo holds.
Add into that the fact that countries like Ukraine were meant to be buffer states. States that didn't hold too closely to the west but weren't part of Russia to give Russia a sense of security. Historically Russia has seen pressure from two major geopolitical areas, Europe and China. It has become a relatively paranoid country.
When the coup occurred in Kiev it shifted the Ukraine heavily westward. Talks of become members of NATO were even brought up. To Russia this is seen as a huge threat (whether it is or not is a different argument). The perception is also that the only reason this happened was due to western agitation. As a result there is really no question that Russia began to agitate the heavily Russian parts of Ukraine to split away. It may not quite be the buffer thickness that Ukraine whole was but it is still better than nothing from their perspective.
What we are seeing here is a return to cold war mentality. This dispute is now being split along east / west lines. US good, Russia Bad or vice versa.
Unfortunately I think it is distracting the major powers from what really is posing the biggest threat and that is ISIS in the middle east. We are running the real risk of having a large militant religious state coming into existence in an already politically fragile area. And the worst thing is that Assad if the best option to stop it.
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Add into that the fact that countries like Ukraine were meant to be buffer states. States that didn't hold too closely to the west but weren't part of Russia to give Russia a sense of security. Historically Russia has seen pressure from two major geopolitical areas, Europe and China. It has become a relatively paranoid country.
You have to be careful with generalizations about regions like this, because historically, Ukraine was once the most powerful country in Europe
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That "separatist movement" was paid for by Putin and his allies. Mind you there are huge resources in eastern Ukraine that Putin needs if he wants to go into war with rest of Europe as he is clearly planning to do. I also want to remind you that Russia has already annexed Crimea from Ukraine in the most illegal way found.
Kosovo is a completely different matter.
Re:Wait.... what? (Score:5, Informative)
No it doesn't, the separatist movement has never had popular support in east Ukraine, the argument for populist support was tenuous even in Crimea that is by far the most pro-Russian part of Ukraine.
"If you don't believe me, just look at the photos of the East Ukraine during March and April when citizens were blocking off roads to stop tanks, in some cases just like the Tiananmen Man."
If you think tens, at most hundreds of people, some of whom were themselves "rebels" aka Putin's agent provocateurs in regions of millions is a sign of popular support than I urge you to go and get a better grasp of millions of numbers. A counterpoint to yours would be the citizens of Mariupol who are currently helping the Ukrainian military dig trenches against the Russian invaders and who formed a many mile long chain of people to make the point that they don't want Putin's soldiers to take over their territory.
There are polls both before:
http://www.cityam.com/blog/139... [cityam.com]
and after shit kicked off:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05... [cnn.com]
That show that the Russian made myth of support for joining Russia or being independent from Ukraine is just that, a myth.
Putin is trying to make Eastern Ukraine a buffer zone by injecting his own Russian puppet leadership there just as he did with Crimea, and just as he did with Ukraine (which is what led to this situation). It has nothing to do with what the people there want and everything to do with Putin's paranoia that Europe is somehow out to get him, rather than the actual reality - that Ukrainians would rather just join modern prosperous democratic Europe, than corrupt, poverty stricken, dictatorial Russia. That's why Putin has manufactured the myth you're parroting.
Stop propping up the propaganda of a brutal dictator, because that's what Putin is.
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Here's a video of locals stopping a tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] Here is an iconic picture of Putin's agent provocateurs blocking a railroad crossing to stop Ukrainian tanks: http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/acc... [www.rbc.ua] and another one http://crisisua.net/zhiteli-sl... [crisisua.net]
I was personally in Kramatorsk helping to move my friend's family from there during the start of the conflict. And I certainly know that the reason
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"Please, get the CNN polls and stuff them deep into your rectum. They are worth just that."
Why, because they're inconvenient for your pro-Putin lies? What about the City.am one which stems from a neutral Ukrainian polling outfit before it all kicked off? I guess that was so inconvenient you couldn't even address it?
"Here's a video of locals stopping a tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch [youtube.com]?... Here is an iconic picture of Putin's agent provocateurs blocking a railroad crossing to stop Ukrainian tanks: http://w [www.rbc.ua]
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"No, because they are biased and/or simply fabricated."
Whereas a handful of protestors standing in front of a Ukrainian APC couldn't possibly be? It's obvious that wide scale polls are fabricated but small scale actions aren't? This is your problem - you have lost all sense of proportionality and rationality.
"So just like the Maidan uprising?"
You still really struggled with scale don't you? I know humans have an inherent problem imagining large numbers, but most people are capable of telling the difference
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Whereas a handful of protestors standing in front of a Ukrainian APC couldn't possibly be? It's obvious that wide scale polls are fabricated but small scale actions aren't? This is your problem - you have lost all sense of proportionality and rationality.
So how about the overwhelming majority of the citizens choosing independence in a referendum? Is it any more valid than a poll?
You still really struggled with scale don't you? I know humans have an inherent problem imagining large numbers, but most people are capable of telling the difference between tens and hundreds, and hundreds of thousands. It seems you are not.
There are many thousands rebels now fighting the Ukrainian army. And winning. I think it's your sense of proportion that is off.
You love Putin and believe everything he says? Why am I not surprised. Oh wait, you think that posting something in Russian somehow makes your argument more valid
So you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian and you are not in Ukraine. I'd been living in Ukraine since 2004 until June 22 of this year and I still own a company there, its ID number is 36003074. Feel free to check it using any database (like http://www.ua-reg [ua-region.info]
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So how about the overwhelming majority of the citizens choosing independence in a referendum?
I don't trust any referendum I didn't rig for myself.
There is no plurality in Ukrainian media. It's all controlled by Kiev. All the opposition channels are blocked.
Including Slashdot, apparently. :D
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Please, get the CNN polls and stuff them deep into your rectum. They are worth just that.
Please, take your astroturfing videos and stuff them deep in your rectum. They are worth just that. "Protests" like that are easy stage and - just like the "humanitarian" cargo convoy, the TV images has nothing to do with reality.
In polarized times you cannot trust any source, LEAST of all anecdotal "evidence" from activists on the street. Those not fired up by russian nationalism and russian superiority stay at home.
That's why you should go back to times with lesser polarization. That's why you can stuff y
Re:Wait.... what? (Score:5, Insightful)
They were NOT staged.
Yes they WERE staged.
Do you even understand Russian or are you simply parroting the shit that the mass media blindly copies from Ukrainian media?
So, one has to speak russian to understand this conflict? Really?
I have been trying to follow the conflict reporting from both mainstream media as well as from Russia Today. The twists from RT is really mindblowing. They even broke the news that the seperatists had shot down *another* Ukrainian plane - only to pull it without any notice, update or trace whatsoever on the RT site once they found out that it was a civilian plane and that the official story was going to be to pin it on the Ukrainians.
Russia Today does not follow common practices for journalism designed to keep media outlets accountable. And Russia Today and Russian controlled media has lost every bit of trust.
Western media are not controlled by governments. Russian media are. Western governments do not crack down on dissidents and bloggers. Russian government does.
Which leads be to the reason for posting this:
Fascism
- is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism
- is a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity
- abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion
All of the above fits Russia. Not Ukraine. I don't know if Putin is a fascist himself (I suspect so), but he is playing the ultranationalism card, he talk about Russia being humiliated and threatens nuclear retaliation, he talks about Russian superiority, he claims right to invade any country who (in his mind) humiliates russian citizens or ethnic/russian speaking minorities, he pursues dissidents of his regime and he disregards treaties and expands territory and annexes weaker states (see Georgia, Ossetia, Ukraine/Crimea).
Russia is now engulfed in neo-fascism, Russians taking pride in their new "superiority" and getting back at the world for laughing at them for so many years.
This time around there is no excuse for not knowing the truth. Last time you could claim you did not know because you were lied to. This time you have to actively put the fingers in your ears and shout LALALALA. And that's what you do.
You have shown once again that you will fall for a leader who promises to bully the world, steal and loot, break treaties, threaten nuclear strikes, lie and cheat and play fast and loose the peace of lives of people. For that you deserve despise.
We may not laugh at you any more. But we will never trust you again. You make me sick.
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This time around there is no excuse for not knowing the truth. Last time you could claim you did not know because you were lied to. This time you have to actively put the fingers in your ears and shout LALALALA. And that's what you do.
It's so fucking hilarious... One side in this conflict _literally_ has a party with self-confessed anti-Semite, who is supported by people with official "Ukraine for Ukrainians" ideology and the other party is basically a run-of-the-mill rebels simply wishing to live separately. And the latter party are fascists.
What can I say, nice brainwashing job, Western media. Congrats.
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"Kill [ethnic slur for Russians] with knives" and "The ones not jumping are [ethnic slur for Russians]'.
Oh, and they also scream: "Hang Russians on tree branches" (at 0:25). Just to show how Ukraine develops deep mutual appreciation and tolerance in a multi-cultural society from the very young age.
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Last time I checked, Ukraine was fighting a separatist movement that wants to liberate the east of Ukraine after a coup occured in Kiev.
"Liberate" is a funny word here. The previous leader of separatists, Alexandr Borodai, said in an interview that he does not consider himself a separatist - rather, Ukrainians are the separatists from the "Russian World", and his fight against them will only be over with the militia's tanks on the streets of Lviv.
If the separatists have the support of the majority of the local people, why would we oppose them?
They haven't shown any clear evidence that they do have the support of the majority of local people. Unlike the referendum in Crimea, the ones in DNR and LNR were so ad-hoc that their results are b
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If the separatists have the support of the majority of the local people, why would we oppose them?
Oh, you mean like when Chechnya [wikipedia.org] declared independence from Russia and was granted it because the locals overwhelmingly supported it. Oh wait - how come they are still part of Russia?
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...Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia...
Whose brilliant idea was that?
Lots of sensible decisions look dumb in hindsight. Until a few months ago, Ukraine and Russia were on fairly good terms. Russia is Ukraine's biggest trading partner. Nearly half of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language. So, since FB already had an office in Russia, it made sense to let that office handle Ukraine as well. Even if there was a separate office in Ukraine, the situation would not be much different. If the office was located in Donetsk or Luhansk, it would still be pro-Russian.
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...Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia...
Whose brilliant idea was that?
I imagine Facebook management, on the grounds that their people would be much less likely to be killed. Ukraine is a very dangerous place at the moment - cities are being bombarded by heavy artillery and fired on with medium rockets, people whose faces don't fit are being burned alive.
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Facebook decided several years ago that Ukraine would be a dangerous place in late 2014, so they avoided putting offices in Ukraine?
Wow, I wo
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...Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia...
Whose brilliant idea was that?
Depends, was the office located in Crimea?
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...Facebook's Ukrainian office is located in Russia...
Whose brilliant idea was that?
Is it actually a 'Ukrainian' office of FB or is it just that the regional office for FB happens to be in Russia and that Ukraine is inside that region?
Zuk Don't Care (Score:2, Insightful)
Funny that the Ukrainians think Zuckerberg cares. He's the worst kind of anti-freedom, in-bed-with-the-government, limousine socialist there is. Mr. Open-All-The-Borders hides behind his armed guards at his gated mansion so he wont have to be burdened with the consequences of his actions. Appealing to Zuckerberg to stop blocking their social media efforts is going to have about as much effect as appealing directly to Putin to stop invading.
Why are the Ukrainians using facebook? (Score:3)
Seriously, setting up a social networking site is technically very simple. We have thousands of them. Why are the Ukrainians using an American system that has been compromised by crippling political correctness, is administered by Russians... aka the enemy, and all the other crap you could possibly windge on about facebook.
Why use it? Just set up your own social network, get people to join, and let the kids send profane selfies at each other.
Problem solved.
Happily ever after.
Re:Why are the Ukrainians using facebook? (Score:5, Insightful)
The freedom to speak is worthless if there is nobody to listen to you. In other words, nobody hears you scream on the internet, unless you're screaming where everyone is listening.
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Because that's where everyone they want to listen to their plight - i.e. Westerners can be found.
Ukrainians want their voice to be heard by the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is on Facebook.
It's not just about being heard by each other.
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Putin is sending military forces into Ukraine. Your argument will have more credibility when either the US or Ukraine start sending troops, tanks, etc into Russia. Until then, Russia is the aggressor.
I have little patience for this "we need to be open minded about the people invading other countries" nonsense.
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You say this like the US is doing this all on their own. The Ukrainian government is screaming bloody murder. And frankly, whatever you say about the Russians, they're doing their best to appear mercurial and scary.
The Russians are massing significant forces capable of invading Ukraine at the border. That is not in dispute. As to whether they've entered the country, there are alligations and ultimately you have to decide if you believe Putin or the US more.
You say you don't trust the US? Fine... why do you
Just run your own blog (Score:2)
Seriously, who cares about Facebook postings anyway? Are these people a bunch of 12 year olds?
I don't need a FB account to know that I probably can't differentiate between official propaganda, astroturfers, shills and real eye-witness reports - on both sides.
Maybe Ukraine should buy more ads on FB - that usually helps...
Canada knows where to locate the office (Score:2)
https://twitter.com/CanadaNATO... [twitter.com]
Almost amusing ... (Score:2)
... watching American lefties' discomfort in all this. Especially older American lefties.
"Can't ever say that Russia is the bad guy, but Russia clearly is the bad guy all too obviously ... head must explode now like a 1960's sci-fi robot caught in a contradiction ..."
Won't happen (Score:2)
Re:Rules of war (Score:5, Insightful)
It *is* a military assault, and it is orchestrated by Russia... but it is still a game. For example, Russia is not attempting to gain control of the airspace over Ukraine (heaven forbid they try, there are NATO air resources all around the place and those might get involved, resulting in a far larger-scale war).
It is just that for politicians to play "chicken", thousands of soldiers have to die.
On this level of the game, Russia intensively re-supplies and re-mans rebel fighters, hoping that the Ukraininan government grows desperate and starts negotiations on very favourable terms. (It pays to remember that the Ukraininan government previously proposed negotiations, during a ceasefire, but rebels rejected this.) Meanwhile, the Ukraininan government is trying to solicit foreign financial and military aid, to outlast and push back the offensive and negotiate when very serious economic sanctions have been enacted against Russia.
For the soldiers who die, and the civilians who die from collateral damage, rest assured, this is not a game, and I (as an anarchist) would very much prefer if some helpful person would take out the trash that is called Vladimir Putin (and if it's necessary, then also Petro Poroshenko, though it must be said that he did't start this - he was hired when shit was alreadu spinning with the fan).
Re:Rules of war (Score:5, Interesting)
(heaven forbid they try, there are NATO air resources all around the place and those might get involved, resulting in a far larger-scale war).
NATO will not go to war with Russia over Ukraine. None of the members of NATO have that obligation since Ukraine is not a member, and moreover, none of them want to risk lives to defend Ukraine. It's a similar situation to Hungary in the 50s......did anyone help them? Of that situation, Krushkev said:
"In a newspaper interview in 1957, Khrushchev commented "support by United States ... is rather in the nature of the support that the rope gives to a hanged man."
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If you actually follow the news, at the time of proposed negotiations Ukrainian army was being pummeled by the rebels. Ceasefire would have allowed the Ukrainian army to break out of the encirclement. As it happened, about 400 Ukrainian soldiers had to drop their weapons and escape into _Russia_. I'm not joking, Ukrainian military personnel had to flee to their enemy, and then Russia simply let them return to Ukraine.
Maybe you're thinking about the earlier "Por
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I suppose you have a source for this...? Oh, BTW, a russian source will not impress me.
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If Russia didn't care about international opinion/backlash you are probably correct except for the possible insurgency after the fact. They manifestly care about international opinion though Putin seems to really enjoy playing the game.
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I guess you dont know how to do a google search [google.ca]. Russia has not gone all out but they are there.
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Re:Rules of war (Score:5, Informative)
Get a perspective or something.
When the "local militias" chose to take over Donetsk International Airport in June, and were ousted by Ukrainian marines, the coffins were sent mostly to Russia and Chechnia. Yeah right, locals took up arms to defend themselves.
Yes, there are some locals fighting. They are not the most agressive, and their numbers are dropping. There is scarecely any equipment seized by locals left. Nearly all of the heavy equipment has been deliberately supplied by Russian state.
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As Ukraine is under military assault by Russia at the moment, they should abandon any complaint monitoring for the time being.
That turns out not to be the case. The Ukrainian army - which is rapidly running out of effectives who are willing to lay down their lives for billionaire Nazi oligarchs - has been severely mauled by the militias formed to defend the area around Donetsk and Lugansk. As Americans would form militias to fight for their homes if an army trundled into their state and began bombarding city centres.
Turns out? Turns out?
The legal government led by the newly democratically elected president of the Ukraine was winning and driving the rebels out of even their stongholds like Luhansk, before the Russians decided to openly intervene instead of just sending "soldiers on holliday" and anti-maylasia air systems.
Now, as in the latest few days the Ukraines are withdrawing, they havn't lost any engagements yet, but are moving to better prositions and waiting for international reactions before engaging the invadin
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My considered opinion is that the Ukrainian military is not motivated, not trained, not equipped, not professional, and not reliable. They are heading for the hills because they can't endure the battle which is their duty. They will have a long, long, long wait if they wait for mommy in the form of "international reaction" to punish their bullies.
My assessment does not rely on the completely unsupported phantasm of OMG Russian troops. I don't give it because it pleases me that the situation is this way, but
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My considered opinion is that the Ukrainian military is not motivated, not trained, not equipped, not professional, and not reliable. They are heading for the hills because they can't endure the battle which is their duty. They will have a long, long, long wait if they wait for mommy in the form of "international reaction" to punish their bullies.
My assessment does not rely on the completely unsupported phantasm of OMG Russian troops. I don't give it because it pleases me that the situation is this way, but I decline to warp my view of the situation to fit my fantasy of how things ought to be.
Actually it turns out I was wrong, they have been engaging the invading forces heavily and lost, though also it appears the group called "Mothers of Russia" are starting to report about missing sons and bodies coming back.
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It's a bit more complicated.
Ukrainian military right now basically consists of three distinct parts. One is the regular army - those are reasonably well equipped (all the usual stuff, artillery, tanks, air etc - if somewhat outdated), but poorly motivated. The other is the National Guard, which was basically recreated and stuffed with mostly ex-MVD and internal troops - these are neither well equipped nor well motivated (many of them were on the "wrong" side of Maidan).
Then there is that part of the Nationa
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Personally, I have a lot of doubts that the 'invasion' is really real. It looks more like Kiev tries to frantically shift the blame from the extreme stupidity of Ukrainian military commanders who simply use soldiers as cannon fodder.
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Rebels consolidated control over their areas and also won several tactical victories before the 'invasion'. If anything, this 'invasion' can be associated with more aggressive push towards capturing Mariupol. I.e. with offensive operations.
Personally, I have a lot of doubts that the 'invasion' is really real. It looks more like Kiev tries to frantically shift the blame from the extreme stupidity of Ukrainian military commanders who simply use soldiers as cannon fodder.
See http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media... [bbcimg.co.uk]
The rebels were losing ground everywhere and suddenly resurged a place they had no men and no foothold, and exactly where we have pictures of more than a 100 russian tanks driving over the border.
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This site http://voicesevas.ru/ [voicesevas.ru] has been providing pretty reliable information since the start of the conflict. They have a pretty up-to-date interactive map: http://cassad.net/?do=warmarke... [cassad.net] , and here's their map for Aug 10-17: http://voicesevas.ru/img/66833... [voicesevas.ru] ( http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo... [voicesevas.ru] ). As you can see, they were conducting several offences, including the ongoin
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"Ukrainian media can now outdo Goebbels in bending the truth".
As can the BBC nowadays, sadly.
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Ukraine needs to STOP attacking it's own people and begin TALKING.
And Russia needs to stop attacking other people...
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"Putin... has reaped significant benefits from this already. His popularity ratings have rosen signigicantly [sic] since the war started - unfortunately the natural reaction of people during a war is to rally behind their leaders".
That would be why, after years of war against many nations, Obama's approval rating is 43%. No, Putin's approval rating is sky-high because he speaks for Russians and acts in their interests. (And, incidentally, Russia is not engaged in a war at the moment).
Obama's rating is in th
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100.000? I would suggest he send 200.000. Ukraine is not a small country like Georgia, a 100.000 is not enough if he wants to take all of it.
Still it would be a stupid thing to do. He needs to keep a soft hand approach to maintain whatever fig leafs that is his plausible denibilty and avoid reopening the iron curtain thereby completely destroying the modern Russian economy. When not only the US and Europe but also China and Japan strongly disapproves with your actions and are invoking sanctions, you are rea
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"Ukrainian politicians, if they want to have a hope in hell of keeping control of their own country, should stop blaming others for the deep dark hole that they got their country into, for their own internal civil war, and sort it out amongst themselves, pronto. Otherwise, Ukraine will end up being parceled out between Russia, Romania, Hungary and Poland."
Which would be probably the best solution anyway.
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Yes, because anyone who speaks Russian (or Ukrainian) obviously wouldn't know anything about the situation in Russia or Ukraine. Better listen to armchair pundits who never leave their easy chairs in New York.
Oh wait.
Actually Russians not well informed ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, because anyone who speaks Russian (or Ukrainian) obviously wouldn't know anything about the situation in Russia or Ukraine. Better listen to armchair pundits who never leave their easy chairs in New York. Oh wait.
In short, Russians are about as well informed today as the German people were in 1939 when Hitler invaded Poland. You got much more accurate information out of London and New York both in 1939 and today.
A person in New York would be so better informed than a person in Russian that it would be ridiculous. Russian media and nearly all discussion is Kremlin controlled. There is no free flow of information to make reasoned judgments upon unless you are in the west. So some of the nonsense coming out or Russia is not intentional, its all its people have been told. When they refer to the Ukrainians as Nazi's its not really a historical reference. They actually think a neo-Nazi coup has taken place in Kiev. They have never hear the truth that a corrupt President feared growing calls for investigation and prosecution, that his security services used deadly force about peaceful protesters to quiet these growing calls, took his money and fled, and was replaced in new elections called for after abandoning his post.
In the West we can watch the RT network (a Kremlin controlled network) and dozens of other networks with political biases ranging from the far left to the far right. We can compare and contrast. In Russia you get RT's perspective and only the information they provide.
And for those going to more modern news sources, to social networks, well you see what is happening on facebook. More heavy Kremlin influence in the Russia.
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Talking about RT, if you really want to have a laugh, watch RT back to back with your favorite European/US news network. It's amazing how the same pictures with different commentary tell exactly the opposite story.
Fuck news. Everyone lies.
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Not all Russians live in Russia. And even in Russia, there's still mostly unfiltered Internet, you know.
85% of the citizens may be sucking Vova's dick and enjoying it, but the rest of us are not so enthused, thank you very much. So don't dismiss a point just because of the person's native language. Dismiss it based on the validity or lack thereof of his arguments.
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You know, maybe some of us should complain to Slashdot about the Obama/Poroshenko-bots that reliably and consistently trol
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"You know, maybe some of us should complain to Slashdot about the Obama/Poroshenko-bots that reliably and consistently troll every single story about this conflict? You know, the ones who imply that anyone who even slightly skeptical about the propaganda we're all being fed, must be Russian or a paid Kremlin propagandist?"
No, we don't think that, we just think you're naive and stupid. But those who clearly are Kremlin propagandists (maybe not paid, just naive native Russians) with their broken English and u
Re:How I know that Russian troops are not in Ukrai (Score:4, Insightful)
Funny, grandparent did not show me any "telltale signs" at all, and I am pretty sensitive to awkward phraseology one finds in non native speakers. Not that being a non native speaker is in any way naughty or evil. His post is actually well composed, thoughtful, highly cogent (unlike yours), and makes excellent points.
Perhaps you would be good enough to elaborate on these "telltale signs". You can regard that as calling bullshit if you so wish.
It is parent who strikes me as being very partisan. That's not a bad thing per se, except when you believe you are accomplished anything by spouting blather and no meaningful debate.
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I'm not GP, but the two tell-tale signs that I'm seeing are the spelling of "Abhasia" (direct transliteration of Russian "x" into "h" - it doesn't make sense for an English speaker, because the sounds are very different, which is why normal transliteration is "kh") and "08.08.08" (date format with dots and leading zeroes that is normally used in Russia, and it's also one of the few countries that refers to that conflict by the date alone, much like 9/11 in US).
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"...rolling tanks, armoured personnel carriers, rockets, heavy field guns, anti-aircraft guns, and airbourne troops into another country is just like what they did in Czecheslovakia or Poland or Hungary or a dozen other countries over the last 50 years..."
Sorry, that's utter rubbish.
1. If Russia had been "rolling tanks, armoured personnel carriers, rockets, heavy field guns, anti-aircraft guns, and airbourne [sic] troops" into Ukraine, it would have been subdued within a week at most - just as Czechoslovaki
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Now I know you are a hard core Russian. You are denying your despot government never did anything in Hungary? What happened in 1956 is so well documented that only a moron who believes his own lies could possibly deny it happened.
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I don't think he denied anything, the fact you are equating the USSR and Russia is a problem though. Ukraine was part of what happened in Hungary so why are you blaming only Russia? Ukraine was as much a core of the USSR as Russia was back then.
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"Now I know you are a hard core Russian".
Gosh, that will come as a big surprise to my family and friends. In fact I am a British citizen (Scots-Irish), with a degree in history and a conservative libertarian bent.
I don't know where you come from, but your English comprehension seems poor. I stated that when the Soviets invaded Hungary and those other nations, the invasion was sudden and utterly overwhelming. Within hours or days there were Russian tanks and soldiers everywhere, and the local government had
Re:Some people might unfairly judge Ukraine (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Hello! This is Russia - which, in case you hadn't noticed, is different from the USSR
Not really. In the eyes of most of the world, the names may have changed, but you still act the same.
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2. Hello! This is Russia - which, in case you hadn't noticed, is different from the USSR
Not really. In the eyes of most of the world, the names may have changed, but you still act the same.
As previously mentioned, I am not Russian. I am merely a person who tries to learn the facts and evaluate them logically and as dispassionately as possible.
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They are unapologetically acting like the USSR; using the old national song as the basis of russia's national anthem is like the Germans taking up "deutchland, deutchland uber alles".
Guess what the official state anthem of the Federal Republic of Germany is?..
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If Russia had been "rolling tanks, armoured personnel carriers, rockets, heavy field guns, anti-aircraft guns, and airbourne [sic] troops" into Ukraine, it would have been subdued within a week at most - just as Czechoslovakia (sp) and Poland and Hungary were subdued, despite being far better organized than Ukraine today.
Czechoslovakia and Hungary were subdued in an open invasion - the Soviet troops that were rolling in on the tanks did not disguise their allegiance or which state sent them. And comparison doesn't work on many other levels. In Czechoslovakia, in particular, there was pretty much no open resistance. In Hungary, resistance was fierce, but poorly organized and very poorly equipped - basically, they had small arms, but little else, and definitely no artillery or armor. In Ukraine, the undercover Russian troops
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They trades socialist for fascist. In other words, now we don't need to hate them for being so different, we can hate them for showing us the ugly side of ourselves.
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But you are not willing to present
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Bad bot. Bad bot. No cookie!