California Legalizes Bitcoin 162
jfruh (300774) writes "California governor Jerry Brown has signed a law repealing Section 107 of California's Corporations Code, which prohibited companies or individuals from issuing money other than U.S. dollars. Before the law was repealed, not only bitcoin but everything from Amazon Coin to Starbucks Stars were techinically illegal; the law was generally not enforced."
Illegal? I think not. (Score:2, Insightful)
Sigh, of course BITCOIN IS NOT MONEY!
Hence was not illegal.
It is a tradable commodity. just like gold, tulip bulbs, or online porn.
But hey, who cares about reality, which fishing for a good story. If trading bitcoin was illegal, then so what a WHOLE lot of other transactions.
Re:Illegal? I think not. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Have to declare gain/loss on coins spent ... (Score:2)
That's okay, currency of any sort including the USD is also treated like both a currency and a commodity.
It depends upon your tax agency, in the US the IRS is treating bitcoin like an asset. Under such policies people are expect to declare the gain or loss of value of bitcoins between the time they acquired the coins and the time they spent the coins. When this reality is enforced, i.e. people get letters from the IRS asking for such info, bitcoin usage in these jurisdiction will change.
The above is a key distinction between spending fiat and spending bitcoins.
Re:Illegal? I think not. (Score:5, Interesting)
Though not exactly the final arbiter for such questions, Wikipedia's Money page [wikipedia.org] gives a reasonable definition of money and according to that, Bitcoin is *almost* money. It certainly could become "money" if a few more bigwigs get behind it and regulators don't get involved. The "generally accepted" part is key here - it's far from "generally accepted" anywhere outside of a few illegal marketplaces. That could certainly change though.
What we can't forget is that there is no such thing as black and white - things are not just "money" or "not money" and even things that pretty much everyone agrees are money can be treated as other things. Currency is often traded in ways somewhat similar to commodities. And you mention gold, which for centuries was synonymous (equivalent even) with money. Things change. Remember that modern money shares much in common with religion - it is based on an intricate system of *faith* and faith in a particular means for holding generally accepted value for the purpose of the exchange of goods and services is not something God has set in stone...
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While it is certainly not "generally accepted," Coinbase and BitPay offer bitcoin payment solutions for tens of thousands of merchants already. BitPay's merchant adoption curve is still exponential: a few weeks ago they reported surpassing 40,000 merchants.
Then of course there is Toshiba, which turned on bitcoin support for their POS terminals
Keeping track of gain/loss of every coin spent ... (Score:2)
Next step... (Score:2)
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However, it shall be know in the state of California as CalCoin.
CalCoin will be exactly the same as BitCoin, except that there will be a un-elected, board of political appointees created to oversee CalCoin usage in the state. Each board member will collect a 6-figure salary (+travel expenses) to meet 2 times as year for 20-minutes. The board will oversee the writing and signature collection ballot proposition that amends the CalConstitution to enable it to collect of a surcharge tax on every CalCoin transac
Company scrip returns... (Score:3, Insightful)
And here I was thinking we'd finally killed defacto indentured servitude/slavery via company scrip.
This is a stupid act, and it's going to have very real consequences in the future before long.
And Bitcoin will still be just as irrelevant regardless.
Re:Company scrip returns... (Score:4, Interesting)
And here I was thinking we'd finally killed defacto indentured servitude/slavery via company scrip.
You mean like the companies now that refuse to pay employees by check, and instead issue their salary by depositing it to a prepaid debit card, which incurs a $5 or $10 fee, if the employee wants to transfer money from the card to their checking account?
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Or the companies that issue part of their compensation in the form of company stock...
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Issuing part payment as shares is a tax dodge. You don't pay any taxes until the shares are sold but you can borrow money against them and the dividends can make the payments with you personal loan being tax deducted against those dividends. This means your pay is tax free and after 7 years is disappears as income. So nothing is ever as it seems, especially as companies can sell their stock, buy other better dividend stock and pay you in that, tax deduct it and yet you never pay tax on it.
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Issuing part payment as shares is a tax dodge. You don't pay any taxes until the shares are sold but you can borrow money against them
In the real world.. they don't usually issue shares, they issue options on shares that vest over time. In other words: the employee doesn't get actual stock, they get a right to buy shares of stock exercisable at a price per share determined in advance.
If/When the employee decides they want the stock, after the options vested: they can exercise the option before its e
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Assuming $Y is a positive number. :-) I know individuals who have worked for startups, putting in long hours for small wages in exchange for options that would not fully vest until four years had passed (25% per year). In one case the company went bankrupt before they could pull together an IPO. In another case the company told its rank-and-file at the last minute that they were doing a three-for-one reverse stock split before the IPO, so instead of having options on 300 shares at $1 each you had option
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Actually, many companies do issue shares of stock. It's common at many companies to match 401(k) contributions with company stock. If I put in 5% of my salary to my 401(k), and the company matches it with stock, then the company is effectively paying 4.762% of my salary in directly issued stock. Then there's all sorts of other wacky stock-based compensation programs like ESPPs, non-qualified options, restricted stock grants, etc.
And there are some companies that still issue actual shares instead of incent
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Drink CocaCola, it's famous.
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Pretty sure you could just demand your money, and if they refuse take them to court as you would with anyone who refused to pay you.
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And if they refuse take them to court as you would with anyone who refused to pay you.
However, this could be detrimental to your future ability to remain employed with them.
Re:Company scrip returns... (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not about Bitcoin.
The governor is signing a law that allows companies issue script (a substitute for legal tender that is often used to pay employees and can only be redeemed with the issuing company for goods or services) just 4 days before the state raises its minimum wage 16% to be the third highest in the state (WA is $9.32, OR is $9.10, CA will be $9.00 starting July 1).
This looks like a corporate appeasement, as if the governor is saying, "we're raising the minimum wage to $9 an hour to appease the masses because the average 1-bedroom apartment costs $1,000-$1,760 a month in 1162 of the state's 2152 zip codes (see http://average-rent.findthebest.com/ and set the state to CA). $9 an hour enables a person working 40 hours a week to take home $1,000 a month after taxes... they can now afford to live as long as they can walk to work and don't have to eat. But you won't really have to pay them that. I'm going to make it legal for you to pay them in scrip. McDonald's can give its employees $6 an hour in real money and $3 an hour in McDonald's gift cards so they can buy their food from you so the money stays with the company. Agribusiness can pay its migrant fruit pickers in scrip that can be redeemed for the fruit they just picked. Just don't expect us to cover your asses if you get bad PR for doing it."
Why else would you time it this close to the new minimum wage, Jerry?
I don't think you're making sense here. (Score:2)
This legal change allows companies (and people) to issue money other than US dollars.
If a company pays its employee $6/hr in US dollars, it's failing to meet the minimum wage requirement, period. Issuing a gift card loaded with McBucks, quatloos, or whatever will not put them in compliance.
Admittedly, this is a common-sense observation, which means its legal relevance may be limited.
"other than U.S. dollars" (Score:4, Interesting)
"Section 107 of California's Corporations Code, which prohibited companies or individuals from issuing money other than U.S. dollars"
So issuing US dollars in California is fine? I thought issuing US dollars was called counterfeiting.
Time to see if the the big color laser printer at work is up to the task!
Emperor Norton (Score:1, Offtopic)
Excellent!
Anyone know when Fry's will start accept these Emperor Norton bills I have?
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So, "priceless" does not mean it has no price. In fact, it apparently means it has a price that isn't particularly high.
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They can refuse any sort of money that is not US$ for it is not legal tender.
The Euro would still be legal tender, even if Fry's doesn't accept it. The company's willingness to accept foreign currency does not affect the validity of that currency.
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The Euro would still be legal tender, even if Fry's doesn't accept it.
If Fry's has the option of refusing to accept the Euro as repayment for a debt, then the Euro is not legal tender in that context. (For example, the Euro is not legal tender within the United States. It remains legal tender in the EU.)
The company's willingness to accept foreign currency does not affect the validity of that currency.
Indeed, but this has nothing to do with legal tender status. A currency does not need to be legal tender to be valid (or legal to use in trade). Lacking legal tender status just means that it can be refused as a form of payment for a debt.
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For example, the Euro is not legal tender within the United States. It remains legal tender in the EU.
Just in some EU member states. Some lucky country managed to remain out of this trap, and experience shows economy works much better without it.
Emperor Norton (Score:1)
Excellent!
Anyone know when Fry's will accept these Emperor Norton bills I have?
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De ja vu...
Quick, hide. Agent Smith just found us in the matrix.
G f J l
r l a e
e o p t
e w a t
n i n e
+ g e r
? & s s
# ] e .
) ^ ~ @
Wallstreet replacement (Score:4, Interesting)
If making currency was illegal... (Score:2)
...and money laundering and sanction evading are illegal... and they can fine foreign banks for those activities that were carried out overseas... could they have fined banks for issuing currency overseas?
Company Stores (Score:2)
How long until companies are paying in their own special dollars that can only be used at their company stores (again)?
not generally enforced either (Score:3)
From the US. Constitution:
No State shall ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;
I guess that one has not been generally enforced for a while either.
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How has it not been enforced? That quote is about limitations on individual state governments, as it comes from Article I, section 10. It says absolutely nothing about the Federal government, which is perfectly entitled to make paper dollars into legal tender.
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How has it not been enforced? That quote is about limitations on individual state governments, as it comes from Article I, section 10. It says absolutely nothing about the Federal government, which is perfectly entitled to make paper dollars into legal tender.
It does not matter what the federal government does. The constitution clearly says that states cannot use anything other than gold and silver for payment of debts. Meaning, regardless what the federal government does, the states cannot charge state taxes or collect payment for any other debt in anything but gold and silver.
The federal government is not above the constitution, or so it was supposed to work.
Disney? (Score:2)
store credit (Score:3)
Individual states weighing in on bitcoin doesn't make it any more or any less valid or relevant in the market. When the IRS, SEC, and US Treasury finally make definitive policy statements specifically mentioning bitcoin, then you'll have your validity, or invalidity, as the case may be.
And now for the down side... (Score:2)
California generally has immaculate consumer protection laws. A good number of those laws eliminate methods stores sue to lock money that could otherwise be taken elsewhere, or even strip money away without providing any services at all. For example, they were first to make it illegal to charge monthly fees on a gift card (which would eventually bring a card's worth down to nothing even if the owner never spent a dime of it's starting value).
Gift certificates and cash-like coupons like Starbuck's stars, Koh
Not done for the benefit of Bitcoin users (Score:2)
Rather, I suspect this was done as a way to open the door to taxing 'income' via Bitcoin etc., which if it's not money, is harder to do.
California gov't is nothing if not avaricious.
Re:California also legalized using polished turds (Score:4, Insightful)
Bitcon is NEVER mentioned.
It IS mentioned.
The assembly member that proposed it, in the press release announcing the passing of the bill [asmdc.org], talks about BitCoin, Amazon Coins, Starbucks Stars, and Diablo II Stones of Jordan*. Of course the legislation itself doesn't mention BitCoin, since the section that it repeals pre-dates BitCoin, and when you're repealing a section, you just say "Section X is repealed", not "Section X is repealed because BitCoin".
*One of these is a lie.
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I'll take the turds. They have value as fertilizer. While Bitcoin is bullshit, physical bullshit at least has a use.
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Re:California also legalized using polished turds (Score:5, Insightful)
Gold actually isn't that useful. It has a few niche applications in engineering that need tiny quantities as a corrosion-resistant coating or ultra-thin foil, but that's all. It's not even a very good electrical conductor - copper is better. The main use for gold is to be expensive - people wear it in order to flaunt their wealth. Like designer clothing, if it weren't so expensive people wouldn't want to wear it.
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A some point one would think the fact that damn near every high speed bus contact and nearly all high current power connectors are gold plated would allow gold to be characterized as "useful."
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Gold doesn't corrode and it is the most malleable metal. Those two factors are alone make gold hugely useful for a number of practical uses. Literally every single connector in your PC (aside from the molex plugs) is gold-plated for corrosion resistance. Every single connector in every single cellphone is gold-plated for the same reason.
And then you get into the malleability and reflectivity. Because gold can be rolled so thin (or deposited on a mylar film) and still reflect infrared radiation, it is an ess
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Gold is not "the most malleable metal", and it sounds like what you're alluding to is actually ductility [wikipedia.org]
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From the very link you posted:
"The most ductile metal is platinum and the most malleable metal is gold."
Gold is both highly ductile and very malleable.
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I stand corrected; I would have thought lead was more malleable.
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It's reasonably close, and I would think more people have experience with lead than with gold, at least in the quantities to easily demonstrate malleability.
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Gold is also used for ultra-fine wires in sensitive test equipment, during chip development and research work, including chemistry and medicine experiments (gold substrates can be used for DNA analysis). Sure, gold is generally not used in large quantities for a single task, but it is a vital part of keeping the modern technological world running. There is ~50 milligrams of gold in a modern mobile phone, which isn't a lot, but it adds up with billions of devices in use.
Not to mention tooth fillings (gold is
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Pure gold won't do anything to help arthritis, but some real drugs used to treat it are gold compounds. Gold doesn't form compounds easily, but it can be done.
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For all those thinking that gold is an ideal currency.
We have ridges on the edges of quarters as a throwback to gold coins, where someone would shave a bit of metal from the coin to devalue it (passing the coin off at full value)
The art of coin casting isn't unknown to the non-bank public. You have people willing to do backyard forges and melt in a little metal into their gold and re-stamp it. After it is a bit worn, it can be (depending on skill) passable as a worn 100% gold coin.
We haven't even approach
Gold and silver coins, wear, and devaluation (Score:5, Interesting)
Thing is, you don't have to shave metal from the coin unless you're stupid, lazy, and/or in a big hurry.
Coins of precious metal wear down with use. Metal gets rubbed off the high points of the coin. A heavily worn silver dime can lose as much as 20% of its weight, and still be recognizable as a dime. Where does the metal go? All over the place -- bits of it are left as dust or markings at every point where the coin moves across a surface. In the days of circulating PMs, when coins wore down too far, they were returned to the government, which would melt them down and recycle their metal into new coins. The government absorbed the losses due to circulation.
If you're an enterprising individual, you can get a bunch of silver or gold coins, put them in a dust-tight bag, tumble that bag for a few days, and collect the dust. You're left with worn, but still perfectly legal, coins; they are, in fact, circulated, just not among multiple entities. It's called sweating [google.com], and can be done chemically as well, although that method is easier to detect.
So, if you're on a gold or silver standard, your "hard currency" still loses value over time, but you have the power to capture that "lost value" yourself if you so choose. If a state or nation proposed to issue silver or gold coins for circulation today, you can be sure people would use the full power of twenty-first century technology to chisel their cut off the top. There's no way any entity would volunteer to be on the hook for circulation losses, especially when it's so easy for another entity to accelerate and capture those losses.
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Nobody who advocates the gold standard (of whom I'm not one, just playing a bit of devil's advocate) believes we should be running around with pockets full of gold doubloons. The gold standard doesn't mean the currency is gold, it means the currency is backed by gold - that is, whoever has issued the currency holds enough gold in reserve to exchange your dollars for bullion.
The reason isn't usually "gold, yay!"; it's proposed as a means of controlling inflation by tying money to something governments cannot
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Yeah, Platinum would be better, since it is rarer, and has more uses (eg as a catalyst)
Of course there are other metals that are even rarer, like Plutonium, but you can't carry that around in your pocket...
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Here's a modest proposal to the contrary [larryniven.net].
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No. It does not oxidize at all. Even aluminum builds up a very thin oxidation layer.
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Yes, Gold also dos not oxidise (unlike silver, copper or gold)
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Hurm yes I must be a dwarf.
How does it go?
Gold gold gold
Gold gold gold gold
gold gold Au Au
GOLD
TP got it right
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Should have been
"unlike silver, copper and aluminium"
all are good conductors but the oxides are not so none are good for push fit connections.
Re:California also legalized using polished turds (Score:5, Informative)
Our AC is full of bull. Gold is more conductive than aluminum. However, the figures for the four top metals are grouped so closely that there isn't much to choose (other than heavy-duty power transmission, where the ratio of resistivity to density rules and cost matters greatly, so basically it's either copper or aluminum, and aluminum has a significant edge).
Resistivity in ohm-meters at 20 C:
Silver, 1.59*10^-8
Copper, 1.68*10^-8
Gold, 2.44*10^-8
Aluminum, 2.82*10^-8
Gold (or platinum) plated contacts are most desirable for circuits which carry very low to extremely low current, because it is free from corrosion, so surface resistance stays low. For circuits carrying significant current, contacts operate under much higher mechanical pressure, so wiping clears the corrosion at the points of contact. Platinum has more than TWENTY TIMES the resistivity of gold, yet it is still very suitable for contact plating. The resistance contributed by a plating only 1.3 MICRONS in thickness is utterly insignificant. In fact, you need a tin substrate under the gold plating to make it durable, and tin is only as conductive as platinum. But it doesn't matter, because the tin substrate only needs to be 1.3 microns thick, too.
The meat of the connector, relay or switch contact can't be silver, copper, gold or aluminum because none of them has any significant degree of springiness. Phosphor-bronze is good. Its resistivity is seven times higher than copper, but that is just a fact of life. The wires leading to the contacts form a current path many times longer than that of the contact itself, so the resistance of the contact is not very significant.
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Silver does have a niche where that lower resistance does matter: Very compact inductors and transformers. Lower resistance means you can use thinner wire, which means denser packing of coils. It's not often seen due to price, but for some weight/volume-critical applications (missiles, spacecraft) it's worth the extra cost to make parts smaller.
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Tin whiskers for the win!
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Gold (or platinum) plated contacts are most desirable for circuits which carry very low to extremely low current, because it is free from corrosion, so surface resistance stays low.
Or for environments that are hostile. A family member assembled aircraft radios for the US Navy back in the day, they used gold solder. Don't know if they continue to do so or if everything is just in a sealed black box.
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Even to them, it was still a precious metal. They only had it in relative abundance - a lot of their gold decorations were actually alloys, to make their gold stretch further.
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Were it not for the 60% usage in China and India to fulfill their local traditional needs for family treasures, gold would plummet to a third of its current price. The price of gold is very volatile, much more than any currency. You
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Gold doesnt actually have sizeable physical value.
The value of everything is "arbitrary" in that it is simply a function of the worth an individual or society assigns to it. Even something like waterbuffalo has an arbitrary value: some societies would value it highly, but I certainly would be pissed if a waiter gave me my change in waterbuffalo.
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Actually carrying around the turds everywhere seems pretty impractical, though. Wouldn't it make more sense to just store them in a warehouse, and then transfer ownership of them back and forth? So for example when you want to pay with 10 turds at the gas station, instead of unloading them right there, you simply transfer ownership of 10 of your warehoused turds to the station, perhaps using tokens that represent them.
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Sounds great. We can have the government make them and call them U.S. dollars. And then we can run a sensible monetary policy around them. Or I guess we can use numbers on a computer in a deflationary currency with no controls whatsoever and a setup you need a degree in CS to understand. But I think I'll go with the government route.
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Actually carrying around the turds everywhere seems pretty impractical, though.
Everyone carries around turds the human body and most animals have a good mechanism for the temporary storage of turds.
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Cryptocurrencies are a good way of exchanging tokens, but just being able to exchange tokens doesn't mean that you've exchanged something of value
As long as other people are willing to trade items or work of value for these tokens, it would be reasonable for me to also attach a value to these tokens. For example: assuming current exchange rate of about $600 for a bitcoin. Let's say you loaned a friend $400, and he's offering to pay you back with 1 bitcoin. Would you accept it, knowing that you can probably find someone to pay you more than $500 for it ? If so, it has value to you.
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That depends on the volatility. If the price of bitcoin today is $600, but judging by previous trends, might swing to $200 tomorrow, then I'd probably just take the money. If it were a really sound choice, then my friend would be an idiot to offer it: he'd just sell the bitcoin, give me the $400, and pocket the $200. Volatility in a market is generally related to the ratio of speculators (people who just buy and sell the commodity but neither produce nor consume it) to producers and consumers. You need
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Finally, with the world's largest economy behind it, it will be unstoppable.
Its the year of the bitcoin wallet ...
Re:Bitcoin's day has come. (Score:5, Funny)
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Or a Hurd desktop.
I'd make a Duke Nukem Forever joke here, but that actually got released.
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I use ChromeOS, iOS, Android, Linux, Windows for my desktop. The things I use are available on most, if not all, of those platforms. Very few of the tools I use are not available on anything other than Windows, but those have more to do with managing Windows platform than actual "work".
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No one I know uses anything but Windows on the desktop (and a few OSX).
Allow me to introduce myself. I've been using Linux on the desktop since 1997. Also Windows from time to time, and for the last 7 years, frequently OS X. Maybe I've been at war with myself, but casualties have been very light.
As to the parent AC's reference to "desktop wars" being rendered irrelevant, it's probably with respect to those whose computer requirements are sufficiently trivial that they are satisfied by a smartphone and/or tablet. I have an Android phone and an Android tablet, and I enjoy us
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Its the year of the bitcoin wallet ...
Stallman has announced that it should be called gnubitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin's day has come. (Score:5, Funny)
Its the year of the bitcoin wallet ...
Stallman has announced that it should be called gnubitcoin.
Makes sense, I've heard that the gnu is very protective of its bits.
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"Stallman has announced that it should be called gnubitcoin."
While ESR countered it should be called gunbitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin's day has come. (Score:5, Informative)
Of course. Governments love bitcoin because it is actually traceable. And as an added bonus, the public perception of the bitcoin is that is totally UNtraceable.
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Bitcoin is traceable, but there are plenty of coin washing services out there. There are also transaction exchanges where coins are washed as they are exchanged for goods and services. Bitcoin can be "less traceable" if you also take simple steps to avoid wallet re-use.
If you combine any number of these techniques, your individual transactions while traceable, cannot be traced back to you, which is the goal. And they are working on extensions to the protocol to help make a few of these more "automatic" than
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"washing" is a term used to make illicit currency legitimate. In this case, washing BitCoin means sending an amount of BitCoin to a Middle Man, who then exchanges it for a random amount of Coins (minus a transaction charge) with uncertain history. In an overly simplistic scenario Person A gets BitCoins with serial numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 for a transaction. He takes all those coins (plus a fee) to a "washer" who then returns BitCoins with serial Numbers (not real) of 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. He now has the same num
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Somebody should mod this up. The GP's description makes no sense, but this makes it clear.
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You are unaware of the information that can be extracted (mined) by looking at the big picture.
When a lot of transactions go through an intermediate point (this can easily be detected by just looking at the amounts of money transferred), this point is marked as a possible washer. Then again, looking at the transferred amounts, the "real" transactions that are taking place can be mined.
(Even if the washer uses an intermediate network, and divides the transaction into smaller transactions, well, the NSA has a
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Sounds like Bitcoin is really really tangential to this story... but hey *page views*
Re: Bitcoin's day has come. (Score:2)
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What's amusing is that because it has the word "coin" in its name, people automatically consider it money, as per the intention of Bitcoin's creator. But it's not money. It's just tradeable bits. If it had been called Bitvalues or Bitnumbers, no one would think of it as money and it still would have gone nowhere.
Fixed that for you...
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What's amusing is that because they have the word "coin" in their name, people automatically consider coins money. But they're not money. They're just tradeable metal discs. If they had called them Nickelplates or Copperounds, no one would think of them as money, and they would have gone nowhere.
*dons white beret*
Guess what! Everything is arbitrary! And it's wonderful! You can buy a house with colored pieces of paper or wear a beaver tail or race steam-powered airships or conduct a symphony underwater. The
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What's amusing is that because it has the word "coin" in its name, people automatically consider it money
They should have named it PonziCoin.
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And because Dogecoin has the word 'dog' in it, people think it can bite you in the ass ......
No, wait. That works just fine. Never mind.
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'Running' as people do with feet, or as water does down a streambed?
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We do have a head version. Here's the federal: http://uscode.house.gov/ [house.gov]
Here's california's: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.... [ca.gov]