Def Con Hackers On Whether They'd Work For the NSA 126
Daniel_Stuckey writes "Premier hacker conference Def Con, which just wrapped up its 21st year, played host to security professionals who all had very different opinions on what the NSA is up to. In fact, the only thing everyone could agree on is that the PRISM revelations came as no surprise. Even if it isn't news to this crowd, it is still a significant development in the general climate of government surveillance and national security. And at Def Con, where government recruitment was hampered this year by conference founder Jeff Moss's requesting that feds stay away, it seemed like a good idea to walk around asking people if they would still want to work for the NSA."
The only reason worth working for the NSA (Score:5, Insightful)
Is continuing Edward Snowden's great work.
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As stated below, he worked for the CIA and the NSA so of course he has training, but what do you see that gives away his backing interest in any way? In my opinion, the fact that
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It's unfortunate that the NSA has put that mission at risk by vastly exceeding it's mandate and creating a political firebomb. It's apparent that they haven't been all that interested in paying attention to their actual job for some time based on the way they keep doing jobs that aren't part of their mission (and that are in fact, prohibited).
So if you want to blame someone for putting the U.S. at risk, blame the management at the NSA. They are the irresponsible ones endangering the mission.
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Yes, then conveniently forget that he was an employee of the CIA for several years.
Which, combined with how much trouble the US has gone to to make sure he was not apprehended and that he would be welcome in several countries makes one wonder.....
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Idle thought: I wonder if / how many internal factions tripped over each other on this one.
Terrified, I'm sure... (Score:5, Interesting)
"Hey, you, geek. We've got cash, huge fucking computers, and it's totally legal* to hack whoever you want. You in?"
I'm inclined to guess that, between the people who love toys or have mortgages and the people who think that the NSA is A-OK(tm), they aren't too worried(plus, if your area of expertise or interest is something related to data mining, the NSA might count as honest work compared to, say, Facebook)...
Re:Terrified, I'm sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Terrified, I'm sure... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, it's one thing to be righteously fighting for principles against the Man, but it's a whole different ball game when you got mouths to feed. Or an fresh, empty resume to build. Or a mountain of loans to pay. Then you can't be so picky when trying to secure a decent source of income.
I would disagree. There are so many hoops to jump through to work for an agency like NASA or a 3-letter agency that if I was in desperate need of a job, I would put them on the bottom of the list. Government hiring decisions take forever. Background checks take time. Work conditions are somewhat restrictive.
Working for a for-profit company is the path of least resistance. Hiring processes may be slow, but they are much faster than the government. If you add salary+benefits, government jobs *might* pay a little better, but maybe not. It is a wash in my line of work. I can't say about who would be more likely to hire a fresh graduate, but if I was really stuck, there are plenty of companies out there with lowball salaries which would put *something* on my resume before moving on.
Re:Terrified, I'm sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
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OK, I'm with you. I'm not willing to do surveillance work. I have 'breeded responsibly', with the qualification that it takes ~16 years to raise a child, and few people have jobs that can be trusted that far into the future. I have extensive MS level education in math, CS, and EE, and many years of experience with C, C++, C#, and Python. I've tended to specialize in algorithm development and speed performance optimization. I've been employed in San Jose for several years, but my house and family are in
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Thanks for the encouragement. My experience and skill is well suited to radar and video surveillance, not so much for the data-mining kind. I agree that the tech market in San Diego looks pretty good, and there's a lot of stuff there that I think I'm potentially pretty good at. So far I haven't been able to get the ball rolling, but I'm still trying.
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pretty much everyone I've ever met sells out when it comes to making an actual personal sacrifice for the sake of doing what's right
Too right! But understand, management is to blame for most of that. They deliberately put people in untenable situations, and sometimes it can be for such stupidly petty crap. If you have any kind of reputation as a star hacker, or an advanced degree or some such, they may demand that you put your personal stamp of approval on some equipment, software, or project that is absolute junk. They don't put it so nakedly of course, they will instead tell you to examine the material, and mention that it would b
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I agree that management is at the center of the problem since they have the most power, but as with any other corrupt system there's blame from the top to the bottom.
I would have chosen my 'no respect for cowards' wording a little bit differently if I had more time when I posted earlier. What I meant was I agree with the sentiment of the parent poster, but that since nearly everyone sells out it makes it a lot harder for the few who do try to take a stand on something. I might have more compassion for sel
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it's a whole different ball game when you got mouths to feed
No, it isn't. We are talking about software engineers with degrees. They aren't a starving lot you know. If they are, it certainly isn't because they are refusing to work at the NSA.
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If you're a pussy (Score:2)
Yeah, it's one thing to be righteously fighting for principles against the Man, but it's a whole different ball game when you got mouths to feed. Or an fresh, empty resume to build. Or a mountain of loans to pay. Then you can't be so picky when trying to secure a decent source of income.
and you sell out your kids freedom/future for the next paycheck then yes, you are right. Thank god my mom wasn't a pussy like you and fought for freedom in Poland where she ended up in Goldap http://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/2008/women-in-internment.-goldap-1982-bialystok,-december-10 [ipn.gov.pl],
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There are decent sources of income, and sources of decent income. Don't get them mixed up.
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Re:Terrified, I'm sure... (Score:4, Funny)
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Expect to see a couple of new TV series glorifying the work at NSA-type places, with cool looking actors defending America against all foreigners. That's how it works in the States, propaganda through TV and movies, with some sponsoring of key sports series, like the US Army sponsoring a Nascar team.
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(plus, if your area of expertise or interest is something related to data mining, the NSA might count as honest work compared to, say, Facebook)
When did the NSA and Facebook become separate entities?
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Depends; does Halle Berry still work there? (Score:1)
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If so, count me in.
No, she's taken a teaching position at the Xavier School.
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The NSA does introspection?
Re:I'd do it... (Score:5, Interesting)
The NSA does introspection?
If the recent reports that they can search a substantial percentage of the planet's internet activity; but not their own mailserver [propublica.org] are accurate, I'd be inclined to go with "Apparently not".
Yes (Score:5, Interesting)
Despite opinions on ethics for or against, the NSA is still widely considered to have interesting technologies to play with and viewed as leaders in computer system security development. I'm in IT because I love problem solving and the adrenaline rush of having to solve difficult problems under pressure. The responsibility of my job comes first. The only ethical dilemma for me is if someone with authority were to ask me to let a system fail to prove some kind of point.
Depends (Score:5, Interesting)
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More than likely your requirement would be to insert less than random generation techniques into those platforms. You know "perverting" the system so to speak.
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Your clearance level does not magically go away. They keep it for you so you can contract at a later date or if you are ever needed again.
Your obligations stay the same
What are you going to tell your next potential private sector boss? "I worked for the last 5-10-20 years...at
What can you resign to? A front company? A trusted contractor? The "assignments" will be the same just more of an
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the only way you'll get to work on next-generation crypto algos is by doing them. but if you work for nsa they'll never see the light of day and you'll be tried in secret court if you publish, only if you can provide an algo with a known vulnurability that is not obvious enough to get spotted in peer review will your work get out.
sounds like fun & games??
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I guess that depends on your world view and personal philosophy. I don't think I'd be able to live with myself working for any organization that commits such atrocities, regardless of what department employed me. You're still in the same organization and you are still contributing to the problem indirectly (maybe that new encryption system you're developing will be used as part of a program injected into systems to spy on citizens)
I realize no organization is sparkling clean, but I know I'd sleep a lot be
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What's really funny is that up until the Snowden circus you could find job advertisements for NSA positions where they actually included the acronyms of the NSA projects and the skillset required from which you could pretty much figure out what type of work you would be doing. And yes, one of the project acronyms was PRISM. SAIC removed the ads but you can still see them in Google cache.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department, says Wernher von Braun."
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Ironically enough, Tom Lehrer was actually an NSA mathematician, in the mid '50s; before doing the work for which he became better known...
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'We aim for the stars'...'sometimes we hit London'.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
You are legally obliged in working for the NSA to put the US Constitution first. Any work requirement that asks you to violate the constitution is illegal. So you would willfully be violating your primary objective by "putting your job first".
Re:Yes (Score:5, Interesting)
Despite opinions on ethics for or against, the NSA is still widely considered to have interesting technologies to play with and viewed as leaders in computer system security development. I'm in IT because I love problem solving and the adrenaline rush of having to solve difficult problems under pressure. The responsibility of my job comes first. The only ethical dilemma for me is if someone with authority were to ask me to let a system fail to prove some kind of point.
With all due respect to Godwin, this ethical debate started during the cold war when everybody was thinking about the Nazis in WWII.
I aim at the stars, says Werner von Braun.
The rockets go up, and where they come down,
that's not my department, says Werner von Braun.
Sometimes I miss, I hit England.
But I aim at the stars, says Werner von Braun.
After they thought about WWII, a lot of scientists decided that it was wrong to just be a scientist and work on an interesting technical problem that can kill people at the end.
In particular, the top people who worked on nuclear weapons did some calculations and realized that they had constructed a machine that could destroy humanity. The people who worked on the intercontinental ballistics missiles developed some of the most advanced, cost-is-no-object integrated circuit chips, and every other technology.
Most good engineers will think out the end purpose of the work they're doing. They worked during WWII to save their country. During the cold war, they were working to destroy their country. I appreciate the adrenalin rush of problem-solving too, but you have to resist it if it's leading towards turning New York and Moscow into Hiroshima.
During the 1960s, a lot of people thought that the Vietnam war was horribly wrong (and after 3 million Vietnamese were killed in a country that now makes our sneakers, you can see their point). If you're an engineer, then on some level you want to contribute to society. Killing 3 million people in a stupid war is going in the opposite direction.
You wouldn't kill prisoners of war in order to solve an interesting scientific problem, would you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment [wikipedia.org] Why is that different from helping to kill 3 million Vietnamese in exchange for working on an interesting technical problem?
Of course, maybe you're totally immoral. Maybe you want to be like Abdul Qadeer Khan, who sold the Pakistani nuclear weapons secrets to North Korea, Iran and Libya. I'm not sure what to say to those people.
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Vietnam was a pawn battle in the cold war. Looking at it out of context is insane.
Where do the Cambodian genocide victims fall in the accounting of deaths in the cold war?
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, look at it in context. We killed 3 million Vietnamese because the war hawks told us that if Vietnam fell to Communism, all the other southeast countries will fall to Communism, like dominoes. Vietnam fell to Communism. The dominoes didn't fall. They were wrong. 3 million lives destroyed for nothing. The war contractors made billions. Sound familiar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war [wikipedia.org]
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We killed 3 million Vietnamese
Who is "we" here? The killers include Communists who, let us say, weren't so concerned about South Vietnam falling to Communism.
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At least some dominoes did fall. One of them was Cambodia. Pol Pot is on the hippies.
Vietnam was a part of stopping the reds. It was for the economic freedom of the planet.
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The U.S. supported Pol Pot.
Cold-war anti-Communism worked against the interests of the U.S. The U.S. is worse off because of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/17/world/death-of-pol-pot-the-diplomacy-pol-pot-s-end-won-t-stop-us-pursuit-of-his-circle.html [nytimes.com]
DEATH OF POL POT: THE DIPLOMACY; Pol Pot's End Won't Stop U.S. Pursuit of His Circle
By ELIZABETH BECKER
Published: April 17, 1998
In one of the cold war's proxy battles, the United States took China's side against the Soviet Union, which meant accepting the Khm
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Once again. Someone trying to convince us that black is white.
The dominoes fell. Crazy, murderous reds supported by China were in charge.
Letting the enemy self destruct is not the same as putting them in charge in the first place.
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I appreciate the adrenalin rush of problem-solving too, but you have to resist it if it's leading towards turning New York and Moscow into Hiroshima.
(Shrug) Those weapons have, so far, prevented WWIII. I'd say we owe a debt of gratitude to the people who developed them.
Good Will Hunting 1997 says it for me (Score:4, Insightful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZllbNarw [youtube.com]
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Snowden should have downloaded the files on all the congresscritters, senior staff, all federal judges and clerks and the entire executive branch and released that.
I'm guessing at least half have some sort of dirt in their files that make them less then completely independent.
There is still hope. He might have all that dirt in his encrypted life insurance.
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Snowden should have downloaded the files on all the congresscritters, senior staff, all federal judges and clerks and the entire executive branch and released that.
I'm guessing at least half have some sort of dirt in their files that make them less then completely independent.
There is still hope. He might have all that dirt in his encrypted life insurance.
I'm guessing they at least think he has something like that, considering the nigh unanimous calls for his blood.
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Sure, as a rule congresspeople vote the bills the way their campaign contributors request. So we throw the bums out, then what? The next group of candidates will all be pre-selected to dance to the same tune before they even make it to the primaries.
We need ideas for an alternative, some way we can subvert the existing system to bring it back under our control, because as I see it the "default options" down the road we're on are jack-booted tyranny or violent rebellion with indeterminate results, and frank
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It's not so bad. I'm a chemist and work for the EPA in groundwater study of karst areas. It's such a niche field there is virtually no chance of getting a job outside of the government and it's stable, even with the sequester.
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[...] I'm a chemist and work for the EPA in groundwater study of karst areas. [...]
So you get paid to go cave diving? Nice!
Re:Maybe (Score:5, Funny)
...heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
How is that different from the private sector?
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It's harder to get fired...
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Like most things, it boils down to who you work for,
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states secret
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Working for government agencies is widely reported to be sucky for a variety of reasons: lower pay than the private sector, heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
I'm a state employee (state university), not a federal one. But here's my counterpoint to your (valid) points.
Pay is definitely lower, but the benefits (vacation days, retirement, etc.) are often better. The overall workplace pressure is often less. And, as in the private sector, the "quality" of your coworkers really varies from one group to another - so it's not a given you'll only be working with "mediocre employees".
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Working for government agencies is widely reported to be sucky for a variety of reasons: lower pay than the private sector, heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
I'm a state employee (state university), not a federal one. But here's my counterpoint to your (valid) points.
Pay is definitely lower, but the benefits (vacation days, retirement, etc.) are often better.
Those benefits are more from working in academia than for the government; I know, I too used to be a state university employee myself.
My pay sucked back then as well, but I admit it sure was nice having just about every damn holiday under the sun off.
The only thing Defcon attendees can agree on... (Score:1)
DONGS!
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Fnord.
Executive Summary: (Score:1)
Hackers no more or less ethical or principled than other people. Make violating other people's rights interesting or profitable and it will be done.
top place for mathematics (Score:2)
Sure I'd would work for the NSA (Score:1)
...just long enough.
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Yeah, but what about streaking? It's basically not allowed, and I'm quite okay with that, since my freedom to streak is certainly less important than my emotional security of not having to see other people streak.
It's such an over-used quote, really. It might have been more apropo when it was coined, but these days "freedom" increasingly means that the neighbors will be allowed to do the same things, and it is not in fact referring to a country suppressed by a foreign state.
Don't you think that Civil Righ
Sure (Score:1)
What is the salary? (Score:2)
If its a good salary, sure.
Would you subject yourself to radiation for buck$ (Score:2)
I'm sure it's the same everywhere there's a nuclear reactor, it needs to be maintained on a yearly cycle.
In this area a person used to make very good money being used for their exposure. You go .03 Sv). At which time your let go as it's
in do a job until you reach your weekly radiation limit (300 mrem / 3 mSv), then do nothing until
you are usable again; for a yearly limit of (3 rad /
temporary work which your not able to perform any more.
These temporary jobs were during the summer outages and lasted a few mon
would you work for the NSA? (Score:1)
Certainly (Score:2)
In the cafeteria.
More 'secret sauce' on that burger, sir?
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Now with bugs in your fries ...
Best response? (Score:1)
"At the end of the day, there is no freedom, anyway," he said. "I need to pay my mortgage, I need to feed my family. Guys living in the bushes might be better off, but is that even freedom? Who knows. Here, have a beer. I'm off."
Depends ... Gvmt work environments vary - GREATLY. (Score:1)
I've never worked for the NSA, so I don't **know**, but I have worked at the NASA-JSC government installation and lived on many military bases.
I've also interviewed for a number of private-sector, DoD-like positions.
Some of these jobs were extremely flexible. We worked our own hours, but had to be available 24/7. The bosses knew we'd cover important events, meetings, and gave us the flexibility.
At other jobs, desktop types doing programming, we had to clock in by 8am and take no more than 60 minute lunches