Is China Wiring Africa For Surveillance? 196
Daniel_Stuckey writes "Huawei has invested billions of dollars in Africa over the last two decades, providing affordable cell phones, internet access, and telecommunications networks to the continent. Over the last few months Huawei has closed major deals in Africa to get more areas on the grid. The company says it's bridging the digital divide, but others suspect it's wiring the continent for surveillance."
Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Did you have something intelligent to add to the conversation? If you did, you forgot to include it in your comment.
In my case, I was assuming that my audience was intelligent enough to pick up my inference. Clearly such assumptions aren't justified on Slashdot, as you illustrated.
So let me spell it out for you: I think Huawei is investing in Africa because they see it as a place where they can sell equipment and make a profit. There's no need to look for ulterior motives behind everything they do jus
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Insightful)
Plus, there seem to be a lot of stuff that is worth knowing. There's oil and other natural resources in Africa, right? Seems like intercepting geological reports within western companies, or whoever, about where the oil might be could be very advantageous to China.
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Interesting)
As an Australian in the Oil&Gas (and previously the mining) industry, the main reason Australia's economy is so big right now is because it's more expensive and dangerous to rip the shit outta Africa and Brazil.
Once China (the biggest importer of iron by a long way) nail that down, I'll need to expatriate or be out of a job. Providing digital-age tools and infrastructure to Africa is an incredibly smart move for China.
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...I'll need to expatriate or be out of a job. Providing digital-age tools and infrastructure to Africa is an incredibly smart move for China.
See? You already know where to apply for immigration (I bet the NBN is going to take longer to build).
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dunno.. you could wire up 20% of africa for gratis with the NSA budget.
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:4, Interesting)
dunno.. you could wire up 20% of africa for gratis with the NSA budget.
Not going to happen, it wouldn't help a bit the US defence industry.
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Strange that you continue to think that the NSA is beholden to the defense industry.
Strange how you don't see how an altruistic gesture (wire 20% of africa) would lead to less tension thus less business opportunity (aka conflict and fear) for the so called "defense" industry.
Africa is natural resource rich, thats why (Score:5, Informative)
Natural resources is the name of the game. [japantimes.co.jp] And its not just China eyeing the riches.
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The NSA, facebook, and google seem to demonstrate that spying on everyone requires shockingly little investment and gets good returns even when you don't know exactly what you want to find in your spying.
The NSA can do it cheaply because of the existence of companies like Google and Facebook that have centralised systems that a lot of people trust. Google and Facebook only exist because of various economic incentives in the US (some resulting from government incentives, some due to historical accidents), which are not exactly cheap - trying to replicate these conditions in another country would be very expensive. If people were using decentralised communication systems, PRISM would have been a lot harder.
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess if it comes for free, that's one thing, but how much money do you think China wants to invest exfiltrating data from Africa as opposed to their first-world competitors?
Right. Because first-world companies don't do any business in Africa.
Alternatively, China is investing in Africa for the long haul, because China desperately wants access to Africa's vast natural resources. Many African Governments include infrastructure projects as a requirement for Chinese acquisitions or in trade deals with China.
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe Huawei is finding itself shut out of western markets for fear of backdoors and stolen code, that the best market they can find is selling to their own government's aid programs.
Re:Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Interesting)
Huawei employee here (non-chinese, btw).
Huawei is not being shut out of "western" markets, with the exception of the US. Huawei has an extensive deployment of radio, wireless access, packet switching and core systems across Europe and Latinamerica. A good portion of what 3G and LTE networks in both sides of the Atlantic for any operator you care to mention is using Huawei sytems.
I must recognise, though, that laws and regulations (both in telecom proper and labour areas) make it easier for Huawei in african countries than they do elsewhere.
Huawei is *not* a multinational company with its headquarters in China, it is a Chinese company with offices all over the world. Big difference. All decision-making is either done from China or by chinese PHBs abroad; and many of them can't seem to get that they are not in China (when in Europe, for instance) and they want to do things in their own way, which is proving to be easier in (some) african countries.
IMO, yes, Huawei is wiring Africa for its own purposes...and that may involve surveillance.
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Huawei employee here (non-chinese, btw).
But you speak Chinese, right? It seems they always list that as a job requirement.
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(me again)
Nope. Except for "Ni Hao" (hello) which I hardly ever use...and a couple of other phonemes that I've learned.
In fact, "they" seem to prefer it that way. In our office (somewhere in Europe) there's 3 lines of communication. One for, as we are called, "local staff" in our "local" language (not English); another one in English which is the crossover language; and Chinese, where all the things that we "locals" can't/don't participate....of course, we get upset and reciprocate by starting our own half
Re: Exfiltrate Africa? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's less money in Africa than elsewhere, but by the same token, there is less entrenched competition there as well.
Who ever gets there firstest with the mostest has a great chance of owning the continent. It might not be profitable this year or this decade, but sooner or later they will be the entrenched company.
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An a shop keeper who loses money on every sale an expects to make it up on volume is a bigger idiot.
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Until you are the only shop left in town... then you hike prices.
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I guess if it comes for free, that's one thing, but how much money do you think China wants to invest exfiltrating data from Africa as opposed to their first-world competitors?
Why don't you ask the NSA? They could probably tell you.
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More /. paranoia over a company that has been "suspected" and it seems to be even more so since Obama has been in the white house, but it "seemed", when republicans were in the white house it wasn't as big a deal.
If Africa cannot get itself together they have an opportunity to grow and become a whole country. [snip]
You begin with a political rant of some kind (was that anti-Obama or anti-Bush?) , and then prove yourself horribly educated by repeatedly calling Africa a country.
But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody cares enough about Africa to listen in on them. The only thing Africa has is resources, and China already is buying them. Is the infrastructure subject to surveillance? Sure, but every infrastructure is, even heterogeneous ones like the US.
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Maybe their trying to protect their resources. There has been trouble at some of the Chinese run mines. If they had good surveillance maybe they could prevent some of the 'trouble' that they have had.
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:5, Insightful)
They will do the math with the local press - the cost of a university, hospital, roads, new mines, power, rail vs the true long term total export value.
Such experts and their press contacts need to be found and shown the error of their ways.
Any African country doing huge deals with a France, UK, USA, Russia knows the part they have to play. Empty ships arrive, full ships depart, the local leadership is looked after and a few locals get jobs.
You had South Africa, Cuba, East Germany all playing the aid/spy card too.
Vietnam, China mostly went for long term farm aid and very long term friendship.
The visions of Moscow, London and Washington have usually been the same, influence, shared mil bases, listening stations, blocking China/France/Japan.
What can leaders in Africa do?
Sell out to mines/oil backed by US banks and loans with a few nice people from MI6/CIA to ensure its stays good.
Sell out to mines/oil backed by Russian loans with a few nice people from FSB/KGB to ensure its all good.
Sell out to mines/oil backed by China with a lots of nice new experts, workers and useful infrastructure ensure its all good.
Add in arms dealers, political and faith based groups who feel timber, oil, gems and strategic minerals are much better looked after in Paris, London, Washington.
So you have a lot of groups who dont want the locals getting too vocal.
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:5, Insightful)
Resources need deals signed with local leaders. Smart local experts will chatter about the quality of the deal, some been more into nationalism and patriotism than any bribe can alter.
So why is nobody suspecting surveillance when a US or European company is building communication infrastructure somewhere?
They have exactly the same interest in knowing about this chatter as China.
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Because both of these parties would end up using Chinese-made hardware / components. China is just cutting out the middle men.
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US hardware and software needs for telco support under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_For_Law_Enforcement_Act [wikipedia.org]
Most of the telco kit from the EU/USA is loaded with police 'help' by default from the 1990's.
Making things like this not too hard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SISMI-Telecom_scandal [wikipedia.org]
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Suspect? They know it. No need to suspect. When you're a small country stuck in the middle of many evil empires who want to rob you as efficiently as possible, you know that every deal you sign comes with poison in the envelope.
This moaning is about getting Western populace prepared for the propaganda of the next Cold War. You won't see too much crying about Chinese spying outside those territories. If anything, it's generally viewed as a good counterbalance to rampant one-sided Western action over last two
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Resources need deals signed with local leaders. Smart local experts will chatter about the quality of the deal, some been more into nationalism and patriotism than any bribe can alter.
[rest of comment truncated]
From TFA: The company says it's bridging the digital divide, but others suspect it's wiring the continent for surveillance.
What's amazing here is that all of Slashdot missed this false dichotomy, despite the sheer number of recent and timely articles underscoring that these two things aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, it seems they go hand in hand. Every government. Every government, has a vested in interest in keeping watch on its citizens. We have bitched and moaned about the NSA, but only because they had the indecency to get caught out by some punk kid. Not because it was surprising, shocking, o
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
Nobody cares enough about Africa to listen in on them.
Even if you're right, it could be part of a longer-term strategy to insinuate themselves everywhere they can, with the prospect of future spread once established.
Also... surely you're not suggesting that the NSF isn't listening in on Africa.
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Also... surely you're not suggesting that the NSF isn't listening in on Africa.
For the good of all of us. Except the ones who are dead.
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Funny)
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It's hard to overstate my satisfaction. ;)
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Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
It's a long term strategy to extract profit from Africa. Just because people from the US wouldn't go there because 15% profit is too hard, doesn't mean China isn't there making 5% profit and positioning themselves for a bigger profit later
Bingo, and then turning around and using those profits to buy African resources.
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Nobody cares enough about Africa to listen in on them. The only thing Africa has is resources, and China already is buying them. Is the infrastructure subject to surveillance? Sure, but every infrastructure is, even heterogeneous ones like the US.
So, nothing to see in Africa? Just move along? I don't think so.
Just like Europe, South America, and Asia, Africa is an entire continent of nations, some of which have drawn considerable attention in the last couple of years. I assume you've heard of Libya? Egypt? Algeria? South Africa? There is a lot going on in Africa, and the Chinese are heavily involved. There are plenty of things they might want to listen to.
Africa has more mobile phone users than the U.S. or E.U. [smartplanet.com]
How mobile phones are making ca [theglobeandmail.com]
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference is China and Vietnam started long along in the 1960's with basic food aid, farming help, infrastructure and reaching out to the local postcolonial leadership.
The West was very busy with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Africa [wikipedia.org]
Africa can recall that part of their history, the small wars the US and Soviets played.
Most in Africa recall the support for Apartheid (until the near end), the death of Patrice Lumumba, NGO's, missionaries, arms deals and endless easy US $ loans.
China is working long term on its "cooperation ventures", real engineering, medical experts, roads for minerals, oil, gems, timber, food - not just arms deals, faith, more loans and super safe bank accounts.
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South Africa Could Have a Spaceport
Somalia and Kenya would be better places for a spaceport. More initial velocity. We should also be placing a space elevator there, better weather for it than South America.
Re:But there's nothing to listen to in Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
Resource deals are better facilitated if you can spy on the other side and listen to what they're holding out on and such. Makes sense for China to learn what the real price the seller wants versus what they negotiate for. If you know the other side is bluffing, it makes exploitation much easier.
Second, if they become heavily invested in infrastructure, China's planning for the future. They know China won't be the cheap manufacturing base forever, and it will be Africa next. Well, those manufacturing bases need infrastructure, and what better way to spy on competitors than having the entire nation wired with your spy gear?
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I'm pretty sure you're making shit up, since the US is almost 5 times larger than the horn of Africa.
African Continent: 30.2 million km (11.7 million sq mi) [wikipedia.org]
United States of America: 3.79 million square miles (9.83 million km2) [wikipedia.org]
You were saying?
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Music.
Yes [youtube.com]
no. (Score:1)
The best line in the article (Score:2)
"Hmm, government backdoor access to data through communications technology. Where would the NSA get an idea like that?"
Talk about throwing rocks in glass houses!
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"Hmm, government backdoor access to data through communications technology. Where would the NSA get an idea like that?"
Talk about throwing rocks in glass houses!
And a powerful throw, come to that. TFA:
Each time the company [Huawei] has denied the allegations, and government investigations consistently fail to turn up any hard evidence.
So, NSA would have the technical ability and all the interest in the world to demonstrate it.
As they didn't, I suspect that the only "rational" explanation is they got sidetracked into... ummm... Of course, the very hypothesis that's nothing to be found in the first place is preposterous, the US govt told us so! As they also told us they're not spying on us... yea, well... spying just a little but for our own good... 'Cause, you see, sucking Africa dry of their preci
Usual Slashdot China bashing (Score:3, Interesting)
China is the greatest enemy of the USA, and ALL major US military planning is designed for future conflict between these two powers. So, no surprise then that the owners of Slashdot ensure a constant stream of articles attacking China. Attack Iran, attack China, praise Israel. Is there anyone here so thick that they do not notice this tedious pattern?
PS do the owners of Slashdot still prevent citizens of Iran from accessing the open-source websites they also control. And NO, there is no US law requiring this.
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...do the owners of Slashdot still prevent citizens of Iran from accessing the open-source websites...
That is truly disgusting [arabcrunch.com]!
Re:Usual Slashdot China bashing (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'd say the USA is the greatest enemy of the USA. If the madness don't stop soon, the 1% will have sucked the 99% so dry the USA will be a dessicated husk.
Maybe China is planning ahead for when that 1% discard that husk and move on to Africa.
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Not to mention that the US managed to piss off the rest of the world enough that as soon as (not if, not even when) the collapse comes, few will come for a "US aid" but rather breath a sigh of relief. Yes, even and especially the countries that now suck up to it, pretending to be a buddy.
Think of the school bully getting expelled. Even his lackeys are usually finally happy that he's gone.
it's about time (Score:5, Funny)
It's about time somebody started spying on Africa.
Everytime they have a TV show about Africa, it's just a bunch of f**king lions and elephants. Where are all the people?
What the heck's going on there? It's about time somebody found out.
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Everytime they have a TV show about Africa, it's just a bunch of f**king lions and elephants. Where are all the people?
What the heck's going on there? It's about time somebody found out.
That was then [youtube.com], this is now [youtube.com].
You forgot to tell people to stay off your veldt.
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commander: "agent A, can you hear anything?"
agent A: "Loud and clear."
commander: "What is the message?"
agent A: "wah ding du boo boo ju."
commander: "What does that mean?"
agent A: "Some kind of African language, I guess. How would I know?"
What are they doing? (Score:2)
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The burgeoning population is stripping the lands and forests of everything that can be eaten.
Or burned.
This is the history of humanity. It's been suggested that europe would be desert today if not for the black plague putting a hitch in human activity. Take a look at the fertile crescent and tell me how fertile it is.
Different approaches to aid (Score:5, Interesting)
About 4 years ago, I took a trip to Ethiopia. One guy I talked to there was the head of an aid organization that helped build infrastructure in the more rural parts of the country. He explained to me that while the Western countries like the US, Germany, the UK, etc donated money to local organizations, the Chinese preferred to come in and do the job themselves. It saves on the corruption and waste, and they get to build a positive impression themselves. So you see lots of Chinese companies there building roads, burying cable, building farms/industry, etc.
He told me they had the right idea. The Chinese are *investing* in Africa as opposed to donating to it. That's going to have a long-term impact on who has more influence in Africa. So yeah, they're going to build surveillance...they're building the infrastructure. If we wanted to stop them, we'd go start building too.
Re:Different approaches to aid (Score:5, Insightful)
It's Chinese colonialism. They are doing EXACTLY what the Europeans did. Just like the Europeans the Africans will be happy to allow them until they realize none of the jobs are going to them and that the infrastructure is simply to facilitate resource exploitation, just like the Europeans.
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Yes, but they probably wont start hacking their arms and legs of with pangas, so they wont get as bad a rap as us.
http://www.kongo-kinshasa.de/dokumente/lekture/crime_of_congo.pdf [kongo-kinshasa.de]
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Maybe, but from what I've heard, Africans much prefer western aids.
Westerners just drop their pile of money on the Africans' door and tell the Africans to save themselves with it.
Chinese on the other hand distributes/build the aids themselves with lots of strings attach (nothing evil, mind you, just enough to make sure that both the Chinese and Africians get their money's worth.)
To the Africans, they see Chinese' policy as an intrusion.
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As a South African...
Firstly we will take from whoever gives it. Our politicians whine about western politicians as much as they do about the Chinese. The Chinese typically care about business more than they do about politics which makes them easier to work with. Other than stopping the Dalai Lama from visiting our country I can't think of any other strings they've pulled publicly.
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The Chinese are effectively colonising Africa. Probably for the best, Africans are simply incapable of governing themselves. With the Chinese, they will have jobs, food, water and order. A good deal for both of them. Not as good for us though, which is why the West should get off its lazy ass and start to recolonise the place. With multiple parties competing for them, the Africans could get better deals, and we wouldn't hand over the continent to China. But with all the liberals around it's quite hard to ge
It could be worse (Score:5, Insightful)
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Spoiler Alert: China does trade with regimes that routinely use torture and abuse human rights.
Unlike western countries, China doesn't even make better governance (or even a basic accounting of funds) a condition of its loans.
More often than not, China gives loans and asks for repayment in natural resources, which allows [government] and its cronies to turn the country's natural resources into cash + infrastructure.
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Spoiler Alert: China does trade with regimes that routinely use torture and abuse human rights.
China trades with everyone. Even the USA.
It could be worse (Score:2)
They could post whiny comments on Slashdot trying to make false equivalences to steer any and all discussions to the US rather than talking about the fact at hand!
Seriously, quit with this shit. One of the most annoying things about Slashdot these days are the folks like you that just can't deal with any discussion that isn't about the US, in particular how bad the US is. It is a sort of arrogance that if the discussion isn't about something you know and care about, you can't deal with it and thus have to s
And again... (Score:5, Funny)
...China taking away jobs from the US.
Dammit, spying on the world is OUR job! They took uuur juuuuubs!
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...China taking away jobs from the US.
Dammit, spying on the world is OUR job! They took uuur juuuuubs!
Not really, 'cause we were going to outsource them anyway.
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Yeah, but they're supposed to work for US, not just cut out the middle man and fill their own intelligence pockets! That wasn't part of the deal!
Zero content article (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly why do we discuss articles like this? There is zero evidence so far that China is doing mass surveillance outside of China.
The articles acknowledges it, and asks questions that cannot be answered, while providing no new insights.
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Extrapolate.
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Exactly why do we discuss articles like this? There is zero evidence so far that China is doing mass surveillance outside of China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act [wikipedia.org]
The US Government knows what we're doing, so they just assume the Chinese are doing the exact same thing.
Don't forget that Huawei is the #1 manufacturer of telecom equipment as is considered one of the most *innovative companies in the world.
The rest of the world knows Huawei for a lot more than "zomg China".
*When they're not stealing technology from others.
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You can work in the American factory demanding that people buy over-priced products all you want, but consumers of products don't actually give a shit that you sit there making those demands. They don't "feel you" because they have their own problems, such as how to utilize the fruits of their own labors effectively.
While you sit there being hostile towards business, friendly business environments are eating
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Except you don't really want that, do you? You want the people protected "because it's the corporation, not that individual", but the corporation held blameless "because it's the people in there, not the corporation".
You seem to claim to know what I want, and yet get it wrong.
How often are you wrong, mr anonymous coward?
Such a shame (Score:3)
"but others suspect it's wiring the continent for surveillance".
With todays knowledge: probably yes,
Thanks again mr. Snowden for revealing the truth.
Such a shame. It should have been NSA surveillance equipment, but they will find an other way.
Would have been news 6 mo ago (Score:2)
Africa who knows!? But it IS wiring the UK (Score:1)
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Building a Great Wall, who else could you find?
Africa is the New China (Score:3)
Africa is one of the largest supplier of Europe's natural resources. So much so that France sends out armed forces to procure them (they call the justification "terrorism" too, PR).
Even still, most of their resources remain untapped. In the next two decades, a large focus is going to be around Algeria, Mauritania, Mali, and Niger as they are rich in untapped resources and exploitable in labor.
Having an omnipresence would give an advantage to China as a global superpower. Not saying it's right or good...
Law of the Headlines (Score:2)
No.
Huawei is a company motivated by the desire to do business with people. There's nothing fishy about them trying to sell lots of your products to an emerging market.
China almost certainly does have espionage interests in Africa, and Huawei equipment might be a vector. But I'm sure they're joined in that noble endeavour by the NSA, GCHQ, etc...
Is a frog's ass watertight? (Score:2)
Rhetorical question is rhetorical.
From the evil overlord list (Score:5, Funny)
100. Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access.
Well played China...well played...
They are the same thing (Score:2)
Wiring for communications is the same as wiring for surveillance.
What have we leanred? (Score:2)
That all nations see the digitization of communication as a way to gain leverage over competitive fields in which they're participants People gotta talk and what they talk about and say is everything. So no surprises here. Everything is always an arms race and always will be until such time as 1) everyone has enough of everything 2) the innate jealousies, innate anti-social appetites , the innate urge to be alpha and have more than other people or hurt other people instead of just leaving them alone, are r
This is exactly what I was referring to (Score:2)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4037371&cid=44438241 [slashdot.org]
US & Military Study the Same Book... (Score:2)
China has a VERY long memory & written history.
Sun Tzu in the Art of War 2500 years ago said (paraphrazing from memory) "I would rather have one good spy than 10,000 good soldiers."
Maybe Chinese can solve the mistery (Score:2)
I was involved (Score:2)
I'd rather be spied upon by Chinese than by the US (Score:2)
I'd rather have the Chinese spy on my internet traffic than the US. :), being in western europe, I am better in physical reach of the US secret service than of the Chinese secret service. The Chinese knowing things about me affects me less.
Reaon: If I would have anything to hide (of course I don't
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Less EU cash flow per call and the tracking options via the EU for African calls would have been less easy.
Now other firms are going to re connect Africa away from the USA and EU.....
Wont someone think of the need to track the digital generations, they might learn about the market value of their mineral exports.
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Lolwut? If it was a backdoor you wouldn't see that on your computer's firewall because it would be done from withing the HSPA modem itself, on the outboard side of the USB port, beyond the firewall. I hate to break it to you, but something on your computer is connecting to these evil Chinese IP addresses. You should probably work out what it is before it turns your computer Communist.
(Yes, I do have a Huawei HSPA modem; no it doesn't connect to Chinese IP addresses in any way visible through a firewall o
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That you don't know what a driver auto-update looks like in Windows firewall isn't proof of wrongdoing.