Scientology On Trial In Belgium 540
dgharmon sends this news from the Atlantic Wire:
"After a years-long legal battle, federal prosecutors in Belgium now believe their investigation is complete enough to charge the Church of Scientology and its leaders as a criminal organization on charges of extortion, fraud, privacy breaches, and the illegal practice of medicine. ... Multiple reports and the group's legal history point to one key factor here: The Belgian government won't charge Scientology for being a cult — authorities are focusing on prosecuting it as a criminal organization. Which is a new twist, as most of the group's many court battles over the years have focused on establishing its legitimacy as a religion. ... The Church of Scientology houses its European headquarters in Brussels, so a ban in Belgium could be crippling to the group — and authorities there seem to know it."
it was (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:it was (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:it was (Score:5, Insightful)
Atleast in the EU, there is some evidence that intelligent life exists, and rational debate is encouraged.
Re: (Score:2)
The question was never about intelligence. There's plenty of that to go around. It's our bureaucracy that's so massive that a lot of absurd stuff happens.
Fortunately, our bureaucrats are good at banning stuff.
Re:it was (Score:5, Funny)
Atleast in the EU, there is some evidence that intelligent life exists, and rational debate is encouraged.
Citation needed.
Re:it was (Score:5, Informative)
Uh huh? Keep in mind that, well, to the west and south of those, some people came up with the steam engine [wikipedia.org], circumnavigated Africa [livius.org] a couple of years before the Portugese eventually did, identified that earth was round [wikipedia.org], and said pretty much everything that needed to be said about democracy [wikipedia.org] and politics [wikipedia.org].
But yeah, they're all idiots... Maybe [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3)
You're saying the Ancient Greeks came up with a practical, useful, working steam engine?
I wouldn't call it practical or useful, since they weren't very good metallurgists, but it worked. It looked like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aeolipile_illustration.png [wikipedia.org]
Re:it was (Score:5, Insightful)
Why only EU?
Its just a EU court. Only the US empire considers the whole world its jurisdiction.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:it was (Score:5, Insightful)
So why does a dribbling cretin like 'etash' get a Slashdot score of 5 when it howls in approval for the destruction of this fundamental Right.
Because you fail to understand that they are not being on trial for being a church (which they are not in Europe, but I digress). It's not an attempt to outlaw a religion (which, again, they are not in Europe), they are not on trial for being a "cult" or for "leading people astray" (which would, without any doubt, be a religious motivated move and hence shouldn't (and couldn't) stand in a Belgian court).
They are on trial for being an organization that uses its organized powers to harass those that dare to leave and ruin their lives. If anything, this trial is actually very positive towards the freedom of religion. Its aim is to stop an organization from taking this liberty away from someone who chooses to NOT be a member of them anymore.
This is good, but! (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that the Belgian authorities should also try to organise this in a European context (L'union fait la force!).
Another idea I had: how should crowdsourcing be organised to damage scientology (I refuse them a capital)?
Re: (Score:3)
Start pushing for extradition of the leaders of scientology for any local prosecutions. Just like any other organised criminal enterprise the focus should be on getting the leaders of the organisation and stripping it's assets. So upon successful prosecution follow up with class action law suits to recover the money, and pay for the damages for the psychological harm caused by the organisation. Even when corrupt US governments turn a blind eye because scientology is profitable and the play ground of US pse
Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:5, Informative)
Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's name for a conspiracy during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries;[1] the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history with up to 5,000 covert agents. This was also the operation that exposed 'Operation Freakout', because this was the case that initiated the US government investigation of the Church.
Under this program, Scientology operatives committed infiltration, wiretapping, and theft of documents in government offices, most notably those of the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F.Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White [wikipedia.org]
Re:Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly nowhere does this text contain the word "terrorism". Maybe the people involved were just the "wrong" religion...
Re:Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:5, Funny)
That was in the 1970s. We had proper terrorism in those days - IRA, Baader-Meinhof, Red Brigade and all that. You know, like blowing shit up and stuff.
Not the watery commercialized piss we get today, like calling a horse gay, saying that Barnsley Airport is shite or looking for UFOs on an open server.
Re:Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:4, Insightful)
Baader-Meinhof
I've seen that name before.
Auditing Process R2-45 ring a bell? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R2-45 [wikipedia.org]
Re:Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Epic Corruption: Operation Snow White (Score:5, Informative)
...He does have medals from his service; however, most of them were routine ones awarded for time of service rather than valor...
That's because the US gives out medals for everything! The guys I used to drink with from the Aussie army would always joke about how useless US medals are, successfully fire a weapon? Medal! Shoot yourself in the foot? Double Medal!
Terribly naive, I know... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why(except perhaps for tax purposes) would a group being recognized as a religion or not so recognized be relevant? Both religious and secular organizations are capable of being criminal organizations, or not, and both are capable of using the sort of ethically problematic coercive tactics most commonly associated with cults.
Certainly, being a well established and respected religion can be very convenient indeed(see also, decades-if-not-more of kiddie rape with near-total impunity); but if you have to fight for recognition as "Well, I guess you technically meet the standards of a 'religion', so we can't legally deny you." you don't automatically acquire the establishment and respect, which are what really count.
Re:Terribly naive, I know... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the key word "religion" has been a hot issue for so long that it's built into many laws. Employers discriminating against a religion is outlawed, but forbidding membership in a non-religious group may be fine (and the reverse as well... employers often can't only hire one religion, but can mandate union membership). Church property may be exempt from police searches under age-old sanctuary laws. Of course, those taxes you mentioned can also mean a difference of 20-50% in a church budget.
Much of law is based on categorizing entities. Some categories are governed by this particular set of laws, other categories by a different set. Trying to work entities in to or out of any particular category is therefore a big part of a lawyer's job, and where lawyers get such a reputation for being dishonest.
Not a first in Europe (Score:4, Informative)
France has already convicted several senior officials a few years back for crimes such as embezzlement, and contribution to suicide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_France [wikipedia.org]
Matters of degree (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to offend anyone (or, sorry that I WILL) basically every organized religion is wacky. Since they're all based on things that have to be taken on faith, the only difference is how much disbelief the adherents are willing to suspend. Granted, to THIS observer, Scientology (and Mormonism, close behind) are at the far end of the spectrum, but it's a quantitative rather than qualitative difference. Now, practically, the Scientologists appear to present an ongoing danger to society; the Mormons no longer appear harmful.
Re:Matters of degree (Score:4, Interesting)
Completely wrong. The Nigerian scams ask people to take things on faith, and they are not religions. Numerous phishing and other social hack type activities ask for faith.
Scientology requires it. It you leave, you can't have contact with other members outside of the organization. If you show signs of wanting to leave, they do run-downs on you which are basically brainwashing. And if they can't brainwash you, they got cabinets full of dirt on you ready to share.
There are places in the world where religion, society, and law are all the same thing. This exists in only two places for Scientology - the HQ in Clearwater, and the floating fortress Sea Org.
Mormonism is nowhere near the Scientology end of the spectrum, because Scientology is not on the spectrum at all.
If you really learn about Scientology, and have a discussion with anyone educated in comparative religion, they will disagree that it qualifies as one.
Some religions are wacky, but this is the wacky without the actual religion part. Now, you can believe it is a religion, and take that on faith, but that doesn't make a new religion out of believing that Scientology is a religion.
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Not to offend anyone (or, sorry that I WILL) basically every organized religion is wacky
True. Take a look at the Skeptics Annotated Bible, Qur'an and Book of Mormon to see the inconsistencies, inhumane oppression and barbarity highlighted in these man-made books. It is astounding that in the 21st Century that anyone follows these works of ancient superstitious crazy men - especially when our understanding of the world is so much better (in science, philosophy, human relations, national relations, marriage, psychology, economics, nutrition/diets, health and hygiene etc etc)
http://skepticsanno [skepticsan...dbible.com]
Re:Matters of degree (Score:4, Funny)
Worse than that, he cut Obama's hand off with a light saber.
Admissions of a Member: The Fishman Affidavit (Score:5, Informative)
Steven Fishman attested in court that he was assigned by the Church of Scientology to to murder his psychologist, Dr. Uwe Geertz, and then commit suicide.
The Fishman Affidavit is a set of court documents submitted Steven in 1993 in the federal case, Church of Scientology International v. Fishman and Geertz (Case No. CV 91-6426 (HLH (Tx) U.S. District Court for the Central District of California).
The Affidavit contained criticisms of the Church of Scientology and substantial portions of the Operating Thetan course materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishman_Affidavit [wikipedia.org]
Re:Admissions of a Member: The Fishman Affidavit (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm reading Steve Fishman's book "Lonesome Squirrel" for the second time. He is a perverted, schizophrenic nut job, but his writing is quite funny and sharp, and the story is entertaining, even though a lot of it probably is a product of his imaginative and messed-up mind. It contains lots of Scn jargon, so a dictionary is handy:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/glossary/glossary_a.htm
His book:
http://fishman.home.xs4all.nl/ls/indexls.html
Also recommended reading is "Blown for good", and "Barefaced Messiah".
Steve Fishman interview. At least watch the beginning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKTveC__FMs
Q: What is the difference between Scientology and the Mafia?
A: The Mafia don't kill people in church.
Scientology going down is something good. They prey on the vulnerable and harass, if not attempt to kill, their critics.
Re:Admissions of a Member: The Fishman Affidavit (Score:4, Interesting)
And by the way, the Fishman Affidavit was the cause of the first time Slashdot ever had to delete comments:
http://slashdot.org/story/01/03/16/1256226/scientologists-force-comment-off-slashdot [slashdot.org]
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I hope that they get what they deserve.
I'd love ... (Score:2)
Headquarters (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, the European headquarters of Scientology is in Copenhagen (according to this US report [state.gov]), while the Brussels office is merely a lobbying firm for Scientology to the EU.
Scientology in Belgium (Score:5, Interesting)
* A lot of extreme right wing politicians has something to do with Scientology.
- Johan Demol [youtube.com] - ex-member of a extreme right wing organisation "Front de la Jeunesse" , also ex-cop and ex-politician.
- When there is something in the news about Scientology in most cases you will see Hugo coveliers [wikipedia.org] being interviewed as their laywer (who also have made some appearances in Scientology videos) spouting the same "religion prosecution" bullshit.
* Scientology tries to infiltrate into our government and organisations
- The secret service suddenly stopped working with the communication firm Nextel because of the fact that is has close ties with Scientology. What incident happened is a mystery.
- In the Flemish parlement there was a partner company (Ideas) of Hewlett Packerd that provided certain services that was a Scientology company. There was a lot of uproar because it came out that Scientology companies provided services to the Ministry of Defense, Local affairs and Social Services. Those departments that have very sensitive data... . Also because there are documented cases where in the nineties they also tried to infiltrate the French and German government departments.
* They over-flooded Belgian libraries with free (propaganda) material and books written by hubert.
Scientology is an extremely dangerous organisation. If it was me I would already put out International Arrest Warrant for the leaders of this dangerous cult.
As a former member of the "Church" of Scientology, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Insightful)
Magic underwear? Same loony bin, different floor.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe this is just me, but making fun of Mormon underwear seems to me just as dumb as making fun of the hijab, yarmulke, Sikh turban, or pocket protector.
OK, I've never worn a pocket protector, but you get my point I hope.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Funny)
Mormon here. When someone disagrees with us, we do worse: we send missionaries after them.
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Unless it's a certain group in Mexico. Those guys are already past that point and have begun to actively fight the drug cartels.
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For those who want to know more about that: http://www.vice.com/vice-news/the-mexican-mormon-war-part-1 [vice.com]
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
i don't know alot of mormonism, but scientology has been known to harass, abuse, threaten ex-members, people who disagree with them etc. etc
This is true. Mormonism seems to run the same way as other churches. Scientology seems to operate like the US government.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Informative)
You've never heard of the Danites [wikipedia.org]? There was even a Sherlock Holmes story [wikipedia.org] about them.
Seriously, the EU might be thinking about considering the Church of Scientology a criminal organization, but historically there was armed conflict between the Mormons and their neighbors [wikipedia.org], and the US federal government very nearly went to war with Utah [wikipedia.org].
You've fallen into their trap (Score:5, Informative)
Early Mormon history may be very interesting but a better comparison would probably be with the gangs of New York or Chicago mobsters. Scientology is a racket IMHO.
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That's irrelevant, and that's how they con people into thinking maybe their bit of fraud is valid because others made wild claims first.
In other words, an obvious con is a con and whether accepted forms of worship are a con on not doesn't make the obvious con any more valid. They want to hide it in a crowd to get more suckers and to hide behind televangelists when things get legally sticky.
Mormons got xenophobia. (Score:4, Informative)
If you're living in a predominately Mormon area, and you're not one of them, you're a lot less likely to be part of their circle, do business with them, marry their children and so forth.
This as told to me by various Mormon and non-Mormon friends from SLC.
I suppose this isn't a lot different from other religious groups. But it's worth pointing out.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And the Mormons are known to kill those people, and non-believers. But then I am sure Scientology would of been doing that as well if it was a few decades older.
Really? I'm not a mormon but that sounds like bullshit to me. Do you get off on making up shit?
Re: (Score:3)
No, I'm not a Mormon, but I probably know a lot more than many of the posters here today. Sad, isn't it.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Interesting)
And who has the trademark on Christianity? The Roman Catholic Church? Sure, Mormonism is identifiably different from other brands, but I figure if they claim Jesus Christ was the most-holiest-person-EVER they're Christians if they want to call themselves Christians and if they don't want to call themselves Christian, they don't have to whatever they believe. Why split hairs?
Christianity isn't a specific set of beliefs and practies, it's a category of religions. Before the 4th century, there was a LOT more diversity of belief among people who called themselves Christians, e.g. Gnostics, Manicheans, Arians, etc as opposed to almost all other modern Christians who accept the Nicene christology and soteriology. Most the Roman Empire chose to promote the Nicene view I don't know, but that's the historical reason why most Christians today believe pretty much the same thing about Jesus.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Why does a religion that sings 'father, son and holy ghost' when worshiping get away with calling itself monotheistic? How is praying to patron saints monotheistic? It looks like deification from over here.
Ask the Hindus; they have millions of gods, all of which can be considered aspects of the one God, if you wish.
But there is nothing wrong or inferior about polytheism. In fact, I would tend to think that recognising many gods makes people more tolerant towards those who follow a different religion, simply because you aren't tied into the idea that "There Is Only One God".
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Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, they haven't done that in over a century as far as I know, but it is documented fact that Mormons did kill some non-believers. They also kidnapped daughters of other non-believers and forced them to "marry" their captors.
The reasons the Mormons were forced out of the different states they lived in before they went to Utah had more to do with them being gigantic assholes and less to do with their wacky religious beliefs.
Yeah, UnitedStatesofAmericans did that to Native Americans, too. Start pointing fingers about that and you'll run out of fingers pretty quick.
And wasn't this thread about Scientologists in Belgium?
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That doesn't sound any different from a Democratic voter living in a predominantly "red state" area, these days.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Interesting)
How many other churches have, in the modern era, tried to infiltrate the government and destroy evidence against them (Operation Snow White)?
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Informative)
How many other churches have, in the modern era, tried to infiltrate the government and destroy evidence against them (Operation Snow White)?
The Scientologists are bumbling amateurs in this area. The serious religions effectively take over [wikipedia.org] the state. In some cases, the takeover of state by religion was accomplished so long ago that the religion is even considered a state [vatican.va] itself. Once a state is under the control of a monomaniacal cult, all shenanigans committed therein simply don't exist.
Re:so long ago... religion is even considered a... (Score:4, Insightful)
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City [wikipedia.org]
.
Whilst the Popesters and catholics may want you to think and believe that Vatican City always is and always has been considered a state, it was not considered at state unto itself until 1929 by the Lateran Treaty [wikipedia.org].
:>)
Religions, being mythology, likes to build even more grandiose mythologies about their own origin along with their standard domain of mythologies about the origin of this world.
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Whilst the Popesters and catholics may want you to think and believe that Vatican City always is and always has been considered a state, it was not considered at state unto itself until 1929 by the Lateran Treaty [wikipedia.org].
True, but it always did go out of its way to act like one, even when it wasn't one. The TV show "The Borgias" show an example of it. Then there's the Holy Roman Empire [wikipedia.org].
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You seem to give an awful lot of credit to established religion. Almost like most of them don't encourage poor treatment of women, persecution of gays, owning of slaves, and so on. Intended to stifle sociopathic behavior, my ass.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Informative)
I agree that human nature is the root here, but Hitler was not a "secularist", and Nazi Germany was explicitly Christian (notwithstanding any "no true scotsman" arguments to the contrary).
"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Insightful)
Pat Robertson and the entire religious right say hi. Zionist Jews also send their greetings.
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But seriously, is there all that much difference between any of them? Just because we can trace these two churches back to their wacko founders, doesn't mean the other older churches weren't founded by wackos too.
Alleged theology, and just how much the founder really could have used a stiff dose of Chlorpromazine, are surprisingly poor guides to the contemporary behavior of religious groups once they've had a few decades or centuries to move past the initial 'charismatic leader with band of disciples' stage. The big question is what direction(or directions, sub-sects crop up like weeds) the group drifted on its road to the present.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
In particular, having stupid theology isn't a crime in Belgium. The Scientologists here are being charged with a bunch of "regular" criminal conduct, which doesn't really depend on whether they're a real religion or not (you can be prosecuted for that even if you're a very well established religion, as some Catholic dioceses have discovered).
Re:Here it comes... (Score:4, Informative)
But seriously, is there all that much difference between any of them? Just because we can trace these two churches back to their wacko founders, doesn't mean the other older churches weren't founded by wackos too.
I believe that there are severe differences from them... Take these two:
In contrast, some of the other religions (Judaism, Christendom, Hinduim, Buddhism) seem to have started out as attempts to understand the world and fill out holes of their knowledge... and then it grew from there. Sure, many sects and leaders have used these to the same ends as the two religions listed above, but at least they don't seem to be started by someone with a clear motive to gain from it.
That said, that the core of the religions is imagination doesn't prevent many of them from being rich treasure troves of culture and knowledge of what it is, and has been, to be human - created by humans.
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Christendom - around that time, Jews were sure that second coming is going to be very soon. This made easy for one self-proclaimed messiah after another to gain some followers, preach about overthrowing roman rule and promptly get slaughtered by local garrison. Jesus was probably a wacko, but at least clever enough to not challenge the empire
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
A sometimes more useful way to contrast religions is to look at where they each look for authority.
Christianity and Islam both place a lot of Authority in the written word. Some sects more than others, but all sects to some degree.
Judaism places authority in the spoken word (the written texts must be read aloud to be understood, because it is the spoken word that has Authority; the written stuff is merely a mnemonic aid). This is a significant difference: the Authority is there only as the words are spoken; there is no absolute "This was once written therefore it shall forever be this way" dictatorial attitude about it. It is more a "Tell me again, right now," thing, with the inherent recognition that even though I may have heard this a thousand times before, maybe this time I will more clearly understand some meaning that I never really heard before.
Zen, Tao, and Buddhism state that the Authority has nothing to do with words, that it is found through wordless states like meditation. Zennist practice goes so far as to use koans to so twist up the language that the usefulness of words is momentarily broken, which provides an opportunity for the trained seeker to experience the wordless authority. The core written teaching about the Tao is: "The Tao that you read about is not the Tao".
In contemporary neopagan practice, authority is sought through directed visualizations augmented by chanting, drumming, dance, and ritual.
And so on. Something that is interesting here is that the religions that rely on the written word for their authority are historically the least tolerant and most war-like. They definitely score highest on the "holier-than-thou" scale.
I know nothing about the internals of Scientology. But what little I know of it suggests that it wants it adherents to put more faith into its written words than any other religion has ever done.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:There is a huge difference in places (Score:5, Informative)
Re:There is a huge difference in places (Score:5, Interesting)
With the invention of the printing press, and therefore cheaper ways of circulating information, the world neatly divided into those who wanted information to be free, and those who didn't.
Funny how things move in cycles.
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For a start, religions don't demand you pay up to read the texts and consider them trade secrets.
Which makes it ever more surprising that this commercial operation should have received tax exempt status. It's basically a company, run like an an alarmingly expensive MMO. Scientologists pay a fortune to reach level whatever in Scientology. The company ups the level cap and releases new content when it realises that these mugs still have money remaining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan#Unreleased_levels [wikipedia.org]
Another option is to sign-up for indentured servitude, where hard work is rewarded with con
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
But seriously, is there all that much difference between Scientology and the Mormon Church?
Is there really much difference between "insert religion" and "insert religion", except for when the scam started? They seem to be going after them in LIFO order to build up precedence.
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easier to track the history of frauds when they're recent. Scientology is all too obvious. Mormon's founder was established as a fraudster early on.
On the other hand, "Church of Christ, Scientist" appears to have a self-deluded founder, rather than a malicious one. That doesn't undo the damage she's done, but they aren't noteworthy for illegal behavior like the other two.
One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
You'll find people who do community service everywhere. So, that's IMHO a non-argument. You're claiming, essentially, that LDS is significant because they do community service. Well, if they've got millions of members, then each member has to do one hour a year to add it all up to millions of hours per year, so that's hardly worth talking about.
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:5, Insightful)
the Church of Latter Day Saints, a significant religious denomination whose members perform millions of hours of community service and give generously to communities around the globe.
That community service's whole purpose is to convert folks to their cult.
And building a church hardly counts as community service.
To me community service is helping people with no strings attached. No need to hear a sermon, convert, or do something that in the end helps said religious organization.
There are always strings attached when it comes to the Mormons.
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:5, Insightful)
"[Pablo] Escobar was a brilliant criminal, and he knew that he would be safer if the common people of Medellín loved him. Therefore, he spent millions on parks, schools, stadiums, churches and even housing for the poorest of Medellín’s inhabitants. His strategy worked: Escobar was beloved by the common people, who saw him as a local boy who had done well and was giving back to his community."
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it entirely impossible that Escobar was something other than a cackling two-dimensional B-movie villain? That he wanted to use his ill-gotten gains to do some good for the community he came from for the sake of doing good (with the nice side-effect of being beloved?)
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:5, Insightful)
No. He was a horrible person who did all that giving for selfish reasons. I've watched multiple candid documentaries about him. He was a fucking terrible, evil piece of shit.
Prohibition creates the situation where the only way to enforce business transactions, or deal with unfair competition, is through violence. This is just how capitalism operates when placed outside the law. Escobar was likely no less ethical than any other CEO. Think Andrew Carnegie. It's just that most businesses operate with the benefits, and restraints, of regulation. We see this everytime a black market is created, or whenever capitalism is allowed to run amok. Why do you think business hates regulation? They'd all love to be operating in the US the way they do in China, for instance.
I would guess that the vast majority of charity from very wealthy businessmen is given for entirely selfish reasons.
Re: (Score:3)
The mafia started as a self-help group, protecting people against corrupt government forces. It's nearly exclusively bad by now, but it has at least traces of good. So please don't disrespect the mafia by comparing it with the Church of Scientology (or RIAA+MPAA, for that matter).
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know of very many similarities between scientology, a con game started by a science fiction writer, and the Church of Latter Day Saints, a significant religious denomination whose members perform millions of hours of community service and give generously to communities around the globe. That's like asking "what's the diference between the Red Cross and the mafia?"
Well, they both (like most religions) started as con games. Both are significant (in that governments pay attention to them - e.g. Scientology gets sued, Mormons get run out of states.) Both do tons of community service, although the communities involved tend to be annoyed: missionaries and touch-assist helpers are pretty annoying to normal people. Both offer you a living if you just accept the faith and power structure (scientologists prefer rich people, and Mormons prefer women, but that's minor.) Both ha
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:4, Insightful)
Odd, he answered your question. But you returned with a snide reply, it seems that the only person with their panties in a twist is yourself. He makes a good point, between the two you can tell which of either does good work with the money they receive.
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Arguably, the legions of Mormons knocking on doors do more damage than anything Scientology does. Then there's Jehovah's Witness which are in the same damaged goods camp.
Not a Mormon, I grew up with plenty around. They have mind boggling beliefs and are decidedly self interested and encourage exclusionary practices. There is little difference between Mormonism and Scientology. Both wrote a book to follow. Both are insidious. Both make ridiculous claims.
Arguing that one is 'better' than another is like argui
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:4, Funny)
The mafia don't wear aprons and roll their trousers up?
Re:One is a religion, the other a con scam (Score:5, Insightful)
By those criteria, just using recent news stories:
Catholicism is a cult.
Church of England is a cult.
Islam is a cult.
To make my position clear, I have no hard feelings towards people who are religious (any religion) so long as their religion does not impact me or those I care about. Anyone who tries to proselytise to me is greeted with my standard response of "I'm sorry, but I'm quite secure in my lack of faith".
BTW, an example of a religious organisation that does not use its community service to convert people is the Salvation Army in Australia (can't say for anywhere else). Yes - a significant number of people who they help do join the Salvos, but as a policy they do not discuss religion with the people they're helping unless they're specifically asked about it.
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In terms of beliefs? That's for you to decide. In terms of actions and the things that really matter? Not even close. When the Mormon church has been implicated in things like Operation Freakout or Operation Snow White, or any of the other crazy things the CoS has done to people that you can learn of after 5 seconds on Google, then your false equivalence of comparing the CoS to other religious bodies might have a point. The modern Mormon church is, as far as I know, generally decent and full of okay fo
Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Interesting)
Catholic church's Vatican bank has been slapped with fines for money laundering, more than once, IIRC, never mind the whole sex abuse thing. I'm pretty sure any religion you'd look at, with exception maybe of pastafarians (yum noodly appendages!) would have huge recent skeletons in their closets :(
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Re:Here it comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Think again.
Maybe not recently, but mass sacrifices, blood rituals and canibalism has all been part of various pagan traditions.
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The Mormons have their problems too, namely how poorly those who leave the religion are treated, but that doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with the Church at all, just their society in general. It's much like how, here in the rest of America, back in the 50s when most people were Protestant, if someone came out as an atheist, they'd be shunned by their coworkers, family, friends, probably employers as well. This shunning wasn't directed by any church or preacher, it's just how the closed-mind
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Re:And this makes it different from other religion (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not clear on just how a religion that teaches that God doesn't really desire you to sacrefice your first born, is a bad thing. Yes, saying that you should be willing to do things you find morally abhorent, if your God requires them of you, is a rather primative moral code, a bad thing, and all that. However if you take the account as factual, God stopped Abraham before he went through with it. Abraham was living in a place where other religions did practice infant sacrefice (if that part of the OT is also factual - and note that most modern archaeologists and historians don't dispute that part regardless of their own religious affiliations). If it wasn't Yahway telling him to do it, Abraham would have had the example of other religions suggesting it was the right thing to do - and if Abraham or others had been inspired just by those examples, the various Bels and Marduks and such of the region, what would have stopped them from following it all the way through? The old testament version of God at least says, in effect "Yeah, I'm expecting obedience just like every other single god you've even remotely heard of, but now I'm gonna show you I'm more worthy of that obedience than those gods, because there are things I won't ever ask you to do, because I care about you and yours too much to ask them of you". The parable of Abraham is about a supposed deity saying He's not just expecting BLIND obedience, He's willing to give some sign of why He should actually deserve obedience. Yes, (some) more modern versions of religions have gotten to a lot better moral theory than that, but it was still a small step in the right direction.
While were at it, criticising Islam or at least its founder, sort of depends on the situation. There's a certain difference if the prophet created teachings to justify his taking a child bride, or if that was the way things still worked in the region, at that time, and he just didn't behave to a higher standard than the secular society immediately pre-islam. Most of the people throwing out the pedo-prophet charge have no idea if the actions of Mohammed were any worse than typical for the parent culture, or about average, or even a bit better, and it may be that the worst claim to be leveled against Islam is it didn't make the people who joined behave to a higher standard than they would have otherwise.
The modern Roman Catholic church has failed dramatically, becoming one of the safest places for child molesters to hide. Unlike the 9th century, the current church is operating against a background of secular cultures who overwhelmingly have clear laws specifying a minimum age of consent, and just about all of those cultures
set that age at at least 14 for any sexually related activity and 16 or higher for some forms. It's actually less explicable than the ancient examples.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuJlZ_f1594 [youtube.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_snow_white [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wiki [wikipedia.org]
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Sure, but no true Scientologist would...
Catholicism (Score:5, Insightful)
The Catholic Church is responsible for the greatest genocide in human history - that of wiping out an estimated 120 million people in Central and South America, destroying countless cultures and plundering all of their wealth. The residential schools that decimated the cultural heritage of North American First Nations peoples were also run by Catholics. Even if you ignore the millions of acts of rape and pedophelia carried out by clergy in the modern era, the Catholic Church has been engaged in the most depraved, genocidal, racist, sexist evil deeds that humanity has ever committed for over 1,000 years.
I hope some day that 'freedom of religion' is replaced with 'freedom from religion' as a fundamental human right.
Re:Catholicism (Score:4, Informative)
Complete bullshit. The things that decimated the indian population were the new diseases brought by the europeans. Also, some tribes allied themselves with the invaders for selfish reasons, the conquest of Phillipines was made by an army that mostly was made of indians from Mexico. Without the diseases and local allies the european colonization of America at XVI century would have been impossible. Also, the spanish and portuguese considered humans beings the indians, that's why they brought black slaves from Africa, and you can still find indian communities around all the former spanish and portuguese colonies but not in the east coast of the USA.
Sadly, the end of the american spanish empire instead of bringing more freedom and prosperity to the indians brought to them even more misery at the hands of the mestizos and the new local withe elite that considered their property titles granted by the Spanish Crown worthless pieces of paper.
Re:Scientology not to blame (Score:5, Insightful)
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Because the others will tell you all about pretty much all aspects of the religion, and you will gladly be given, or given access to the 'holy' books/teachings of those churches. You don't have to be a member, you can just stop by and ask, and if anyone has time, they'll tell you pretty much whatever you want to ask about the actual religion itself (but probably not about administrative scandles about pedophelia, etc), or give or loan you their holy books.
With Scientology, you won't get access to the 'rea