Outrage In India Over Arrests For Facebook Posts 90
concealment sends in an AP report about an uproar in India over citizens arrested for their Facebook remarks. Quoting:
"As India's financial capital shut down for the weekend funeral of a powerful politician linked to waves of mob violence, a woman posted on Facebook that the closures in Mumbai were 'due to fear, not due to respect.' A friend of hers hit the 'like' button. For that, both women were arrested. Analysts and the media are slamming the Maharashtra state government for what they said was a flagrant misuse of the law and an attempt to curb freedom of expression. The arrests were seen as a move by police to prevent any outbreak of violence by supporters of Bal Thackeray, a powerful Hindu fundamentalist politician who died Saturday."
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Indians
Asshole. Internet: See Techdirt [techdirt.com].
People plus govt. plus Internet == clusterfuck, these days. Get used to it. This crap's going to go on for a long time.
Good thing we got these "real name" policies! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good thing we got these "real name" policies! (Score:4, Interesting)
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Hello. Ma name's Larry. This is ma brutha Daryl and this is ma utha brutha Daryl!
I'd prefer something more eponymous, such as "Slashdotter" or just "Slash". <BFG>
Re:Good thing we got these "real name" policies! (Score:5, Insightful)
My real name is not ultranova. Yes, shocking I know. But really, my real name is not ultranova. It's just an online pseudonym I use here, which lets me create a narrative about my posts here, and lets other people judge that narrative as they will. And it also allows me to see how that reaction is going, and should it turn unanomously negative - should I be modded down constantly - I could perhaps analyze the criticism and see if it has a point.
So no, the thing about "Anonymous Coward" is not that anonymity is bad in the sense that you all should know my real name, no, it's about establishing an indentity within this forum and using that to have a debate. The day might come that ultranova disappears to the annals of history, but I, the real human being behind it, will still be here. And I'll remember all the criticism ultranova encountered, whether I agree with it or not. Contrast this with the Anonymous Coward, who can't learn for the simple reason that he can't easily track answers to himself.
Anonymity is good, but pseudonymity is even better, at least as far as the purposes of Slashdot and public debate in general go.
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Bullying/extorting money & hiding in Matoshree is Bal Thackeray strategy.
His contribution to development of India is zero.
Slashdot is becoming a long list... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Slashdot is becoming a long list... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I hope it never gets to the point where we're so inundated with examples that we can't even muster a little outrage.
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I would just like a filter to NOT see anything and everything related to Apple or their iCrap. Except the legal battles with Android - now they are fun reading! :)
Freedom of speech.... (Score:1)
....only exists where blood was shed to obtain it, and blood is shed to maintain it.
Most people are far too chickenshit for the pursuit of freedom, unfortunately.
Ben Franklin described them best with his famous quote about liberty.
Going to get worse ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Lots of groups and countries are pushing for laws against the defamation of religion and blasphemy.
But when you lose the right to say "well, see, I don't believe in your god, and I see no evidence for it" -- then society has been taken over my the most vocal (and in some cases violent) people.
But, in some places, if I said "show me the evidence that Jesus was at least a historical person, let alone the son of god" ... or "Why should I believe that Mohammed was the prophet of god" ... there would be angry mobs ready to burn and stone me because I hurt their feelings. And in many countries, the police would be there to help them.
We will be seeing more attempts by people to enshrine in law respect for their imaginary friend.
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Re:Going to get worse ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey dumb dumb the arrest had nothing to do with Religion. Such bigotry on this site.
It did, actually, although somewhat tangentially. The leader she was indirectly speaking out against was a leader of a fundamentalist religious movement with a long history of violence that is trying to expel foreigners and non-Hindu ideologies (they call themselves "Shiva's Army", if that tells you anything about their stance).
Re:Going to get worse ... (Score:5, Interesting)
While he opportunistically attached himself to Hindutva ideology in the latter part of his career, Thackeray was really more of an ethno-nationalist than a religious fundamentalist. He started out pretty explicitly as a Marathi nationalist, positioning himself as a hardline advocate for the Marathi ethnic group, and pushing for them to have a privileged position in local politics/economy, versus other Indians who came from ethnic groups not native to Maharashtra. But he wanted to go bigger, so he started playing up more Hindu symbolism at some point to break out of being seen as only a Marathi partisan, even though they remained the core of his followers.
So in a sense it's religious, but afaict it's not religious in any sort of devout/belief sense, but more in the sense of symbols used to construct a nationality.
Re:Going to get worse ... (Score:5, Interesting)
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I recall something similar happening & in almost exactly the same way, in Germany in the mid/late 30s...hmmm...if only I could put a finger on it...
Good posts & very informative guys (+1 if I had mod points), as far as Indian politics go, cheers. ;)
Shivaji Bhosle Was Historical Figure, Not Deity (Score:4, Informative)
Here, get an education - you ignorant gringo tourist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivaji [wikipedia.org]
Shivaji Bhosle was a local freedom fighter from Maratha history, akin to Robin Hood. He fought to protect the rights of local Marathas, waging hit-and-run battles against the Moghul Empire and standing up for the local people against the tyranny of Moghul invaders from the north over his native Maharashtra.
Bal Thakre and his supporters are also Maharashtrians, and Thakre formed the Shiva Sena ("Army of Shivaji") to stand up for the rights of his local Maharashtrian ethnic group, who were being bullied and pushed around by all the carpetbaggers flooding into his local area from across the country.
You see, the ruling Congress One Party State has been in power for 53 out of 65 years in New Delhi, ruling the country like an Emperor, caring very little for development of the local people. The Congress Party were basically founded by North Indians and are centred around their ethnic group, and they look down upon non-northern ethnic groups including Maharashtrians, insisting that everyone else assimilate into North Indian culture. The Congress Party has only been interested in hanging onto power and never cared to really foster development around the country, so what few big cities India has have then turned into dumping grounds for people from all over, who then flood into these sole few overcrowded localities, like India's largest city of Mumbai. All this does is keep compressing the people who already live there.
I'm a North Indian myself, but I have enough decency to at least be self-aware of how shabbily my ethnic group treats others in India, since we are in fact the dominant ethnic group in the country. Of course, most of the Indian media are from my ethnic group, and my Hindi language is also the dominant language of the country, so nautrally we always get to tell the story from our viewpoint, while conveniently glossing over the views of others. Our narrative is therefore the dominant narrative, while others are quickly labeled "extremists", etc to delegitimize their viewpoint. That's the mutual admiration society and the fool's paradise we like to foster for ourselves.
The Shiv Sena is not a theological organization, but simply born out of a backlash against the massive influx of people from outside the region. We Northies just like to say they're fundamentalists -- it's much easier to dismiss your antagonist as a "fundamentalist redneck" than to actually try to take a closer at their grievances, because nobody likes to see their own warts by holding up a mirror to themselves.
We get ample help from ignorant people like yourself, who'd ignorantly and uncritically parrot anything sensationalist claims they read or hear, without having any actual familiarity with the local politics.
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The Shiv Sena is not a theological organization, but simply born out of a backlash against the massive influx of people from outside the region. We Northies just like to say they're fundamentalists -- it's much easier to dismiss your antagonist as a "fundamentalist redneck" than to actually try to take a closer at their grievances, because nobody likes to see their own warts by holding up a mirror to themselves.
That is somewhat similar to the situation relating to the history and the present raise of the far right in Europe. Very different cultures and religions, similar "solutions." I guess it shows once again how we are all genetically related.
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Shivaji - India's Robin Hood (Score:4, Informative)
Here ya go, Prof Chomsky - here are some pictures of statues built in homage to Shivaji, India's own Robin Hood, who fought for the weak and the oppressed - a real actual person from history, and not a fictional multi-limbed mythological deity:
http://www.indialine.com/travel/maharashtra/shivajiheritage.html [indialine.com]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/subratomitra/6073279079/ [flickr.com]
http://500px.com/photo/5242560 [500px.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shivaji_Statue_Apollo_Bunder_Front_View.jpg [wikipedia.org]
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27769369 [panoramio.com]
Shivaji's dog:
http://amitkulkarni.info/pics/raigad-fort/picture-gallery/Statue-of-Shivaji-pet-dog-Waghya.php [amitkulkarni.info]
Yes, he even made it to California:
http://ekmarathimanoos.blogspot.ca/2011/11/american-shivaji.html [blogspot.ca]
Just please don't go around telling people that Jesus Montero was a central figure in the Bible, rather than a baseball player.
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But, in some places, if I said "show me the evidence that Jesus was at least a historical person, let alone the son of god" ... or "Why should I believe that Mohammed was the prophet of god" ... there would be angry mobs ready to burn and stone me because I hurt their feelings.
You don't need to go far for that. Right here on Slashdot it happens. Granted it's only modding down, no actual burning occurs, but "Troll" is a label that appears to be applied quickly to someone who says things like: "did Obama and Gore really deserve a Nobel prize", or "if global warming is man-made, how come it also happens on Mars" even when the questions are completely in line with the thread. Same used to apply to someone saying that Apple is anything but perfect, however in recent years as it became
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Daymn & here I am w/o troll points! :)
We will not tolerate any intolerance around here - it must be stamped out ASAP! I propose a hybrid trollerance meter which is collated/aggregated across all posts for a user, so we can see at a glance whether they are pro-tolerance, anti-tolerance, or just trolling for (in)tolerance! I, for one, will not sit quietly on my FA while this kind of schism is allowed to fester & breed in our midst goddamit!!!
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Moderation on slashdot allows me to ignore stuff. It doesn't remove it. Everything is still there to see. I fully support moderation as long as people still have the option to see stuff that was downmodded.
we were never at war with Oceania (Score:1)
If there is a discussion about the theory of evolution and someone says: "carbon-14 dating is not reliable evidence because test results that don't fall in the range expected by the scientists who made the hypothesis are typically rejected" he will get modded down just the same as someone who goes on a long, weird diatribe about extra-terrestrials sex experiments and african-american homosexuals (usually in less politically-correct lingo).
That is the flaw of the moderation system; it's mostly statements tha
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Again - modded down comments are still visible if one chooses to read them. And that makes all the difference in the world. Mod points preserve choice. Censorship doesn't.
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Well, no different except that no one is sent anywhere and nothing is removed. In other words, extremely different.
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That's a feature, not a bug. The whole point of a discussion forum is to discuss, not stroke anyone's ego with confirmations about how correct they are.
Try to ignore the reference in this thread that is making you so emotional (Obama? evolution? global warming?) and read my comment again. This time maybe you will understand that I was not advocating having only consensual comments appearing in the forum, but rather the opposite.
The problem that I describe about the moderation system is that people have no way to express their dislike about a comment that is different from flagging a comment that is purely junk. If there was a way to say: "this comment is j
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Ah, condescension. Is it there as an attempt to provoke, or purely to prop your self-esteem?
Bullshit. The whole point of your proposed system is, according to yourself:
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Bullshit. The whole point of your proposed system is, according to yourself:
[...]
I've seen know-it-alls before, but it's the first time I meet someone who thinks he knows the meaning of a comment more than the person who made it (in this instance: me). You must be a hoot at dinner parties.
Since you bring again the concept of censorship in the discussion it is obvious you miss the whole point so I'll be the bigger man and concede that you are in your right to be wrong.
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I still dislike not being able to post AND use mod points on the same article.
Where, oh where, have the good-ol-days of Usenet and divine news clients like Forte Agent gone...? And why has no one been able to copy/create a similar quality threaded news/forum viewer as a browser plugin to date...? *sigh*
Hang on - I still have v5 of Agent installed I think...[RDPs off to home PC to take a look :)]
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A bit off topic, but on the point of evidence showing that Jesus was a historical person... There is reason to believe he is a historical person, even if there is a lot of evidence to discount the stories about him.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ [rationalwiki.org]
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Not Joshua, Yeshua.
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Answer is in the link. The short version is that there are references that lead scholars to believe that there was a spiritual leader named Jesus. We do not have corroboration for much of what happened in the bible, however.
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Personally, I would just like a clear distinction to be made between organised religion and personal beliefs/faith/spirituality. One no longer has anything whatsoever to do with the other (in most cases I see), part of the reason I abandoned the institutional church many years ago.
Freedom of speech, thought & expression should never be limited or stifled in any way by anyone else's religious beliefs or political agenda/views, more like. Separation of church and state must remain inviolate & fundamen
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When you can't use logic and evidence to defend your beliefs, violence is all you have left.
Well, you could just walk away shaking your head in disbelief. Really, what's it to anyone if that $DIPSHIT over there agrees with you? Why care about him/her? $DEITY will sort that out eventually. That's not your problem, is it?
Censorship = violence/hatred (Score:1)
The more restricted the speech, the more violence that comes of it. Censorship actually foments a culture of violence and hate. People will be offensive no matter what. I prefer they do it verbally. The physical alternative is much uglier.
Funny (Score:2)
This /. news post came right after Google Warns Against UN Net Conference [slashdot.org]
dual outrage! (Score:4, Interesting)
(1) I'm outraged that people are being arrested for shit they say on Facebook.
(2) I'm outraged that the entire world seems so stupid as to think it's a good idea to tie real identities to everything they say online SO THAT people who want to use that speech against them are able to. (Never mind that the stupid shit you might have said at 17 will still be there nice and searchable when you are 52 and trying to become mayor).
Report: Every Potential 2040 President Already Unelectable Due To Facebook> [theonion.com]
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RE (2): we should actually be able to live in a world as an enlightened species, where our real names/identities never need to be hidden, for fear of any persecution, whether it be religious, political, occupational, media-related or other. So I kinda agree & disagree at the same time, but I have no practical solutions as to how our race gets from A to Z where this is possible.
RE (1): ppl should be arrested in 2012/13 just for still being on Facebook I say! ;-p
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At 17 you can drive. If you're reckless you can do some damage, for example running a red light or writing that Mr. John Doe is a mass murderer, and that will remain searchable. I'd rather protect Mr. Doe than the young idiot. I have to admit I'd be tempted to vote for a guy who wasn't a total jerk even at 17.
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I have to admit I'd be tempted to vote for a guy who wasn't a total jerk even at 17.
Oh, come on. Who wasn't a total jerk at times when he was 17? I was, and I'm absolutely positive you were too. Most seventeen year olds eventually grow up.
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(2) I'm outraged that the entire world seems so stupid as to think it's a good idea to tie real identities to everything they say online SO THAT people who want to use that speech against them are able to. (Never mind that the stupid shit you might have said at 17 will still be there nice and searchable when you are 52 and trying to become mayor).
They call you Anonymous Coward for a reason. You're outraged that some people in the world seems to have more guts than you do.
Re:dual outrage! (Score:4, Insightful)
Mighty words for "sydneyfong".
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Report: Every Potential 2040 President Already Unelectable Due To Facebook
Haha, and I'll become President by default simply by not having a Facebook account.
No ???, pure profit.
What if they had said... (Score:2)
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Careless it may have been, but it was a legal comment. Even according to Indian laws.
Oh religion... when will you ever learn? (Score:2, Insightful)
Religion. Religious practice. Religious law. Theocracy.
If you practice it, you are being told what to think and what to believe. And if religious power is also the power of government, you've ALWAYS got a real problem on your hands *even* in cases where you are a practicing member of the established ruling religion.
On top of that, religion seeks to be the presumed origin of morality and that without religion, there would be no morality. This is demonstrably false, but as with nearly everything else ass
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Hmmm....not to be argumentative with your inferential logic, but just a couple points:
1. there are some well known Commies who virtually abolished religion in their very large countries and the question worth asking is, did it make those a better place to live & exist...?
2. As far as biblical 'morality' goes, I keep trying to re-educate people on this: the Holy Bible, as far as Christianity is concerned, is not a book of life or any set of teachings on morality or right vs wrong (though it has sections/
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"Commies" or "Nazis" is not the opposite of religious theism. Just be clear on what you're trying to say because it really sounds like it. The absense of religion helps. Even in religious countries, the less they actually practice the better.
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I was referring to Stalin & Mao more specifically. "Religion is the opiate of the masses"...ring a bell? ;)
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Then that makes your argument completely non sequitur and irrelevant. To be more clear, I said "religion bad" and you countered with "anti-religion bad/worse."
Religion harms humanity. I can think of no single instance where that statement doesn't apply. Before the 1960's, Christian theism was pretty much all hellfire and damnation. People got into peace and suddenly, god became a loving god. Before that, holidays were largely just church services and they pulled in and adjusted for some really nice hum
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I do not think "non sequitur" means what you think it means. I was merely pointing out that the alternative examples from history shows us 2 of the greatest mass murderers were in fact trying to stamp out religion in their countries (not that that says anything at all about communism or religion necessarily). Whether Stalin was going to be a priest (as someone else pointed out) or not is only relevant if we know his motivations, fears & underlying ideological driving forces. But hey, I only grew up next
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For the average person, living in communist Russia was much better then living under the Czars. Now if they had banned religion sooner it would have even been better as the real nutcases like Stalin were religiously raised. Of course it could be argued that if they hadn't banned organized religion then Stalin would have just been another priest.
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Does this hypothetical nirvana still have a 2nd amendment...?
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More info here - http://mrunal.org/2012/07/polity-right-to-weapons.html [mrunal.org]
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To provide some sort of weak analogy take the 5 boroughs of New York and imagine that in Staten Island, Bronx and Queens no one has ever gone to a school.
Granting your "weak analogy" comment, I have to point out that I don't think Mohammad, Jesus and his Apostles, Moses, Buddha ... were college graduates. It very often appears these days that so-called "higher education" is an inhibitor more than it it is an enabler.
To make money (Score:1)
Bal Thackeray chose fascism/bigotry/politics as a career to make money for his family.
In 1970's I've seen him roaming without slippers in Bombay streets.
His contribution to development of India is zero.