Teen Suicide Tormentor Outed By Anonymous 550
MightyMartian writes "From the CBC: 'The tragic story of B.C. teen suicide victim Amanda Todd has taken another bizarre twist as the internet hacking and activist group Anonymous has named a man the group says was the girl's primary tormentor. Todd, 15, of Port Coquitlam, British Columbia, died last Wednesday, a month after posting a haunting video on YouTube that cited the sexualized attack that set her down a path of anxiety, depression and drug and alcohol abuse.' This raises a whole nest of issues surrounding the presumption of innocence and vigilantism. Should the police and the courts be given the appropriate amount of time to determine if there is sufficient evidence, or if a crime has in fact been committed, or is Anonymous right in short-circuiting what might in fact be a lengthy process with no guarantee that anyone will face charges?"
For great justice... maybe? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to try to punish someone for a crime (and make no mistake, naming the man is meant to be a punishment), you'd better make damn sure you get the right person.
For all the problems of the legal system, it is decent at that -- far from perfect, but probably better than some random anonymice.
Re:For great justice... maybe? (Score:5, Insightful)
What Anonymous did is no different than -- and just as wrong as -- police parading accused (often not even arraigned) criminals on "perp walks" for the television cameras, and splashing the names and faces of accused rapists across TV, print and radio.
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You try saying "sticks and stones" to someone who's been paraded in public as a rapist or paedophile, then released without charges.
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Wait, "just as wrong?" We're holding Anonymous to the same moral standards as the police?
I suppose it's better than going the other way and holding police to only the standards you hold Anonymous, but still...
They should be held to a higher standard. Their information must be thoroughly checked, verified, confirmed. This is possible through digital signatures but to expect completely Anonymous information to be true without a process for checking how true or how false each piece of information is and how truthful the source is, it's worthless.
Re:For great justice... maybe? (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that this is being done by Anonymous, I think it's fairly clear that they don't trust the government. Asking people who don't trust the government to depend on it to provide justice is, well, a bit unreasonable.
This doesn't mean I think they were right to do what they did. I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion. I *suspect* that they rushed to judgement, without sufficient evidence. OTOH, I've seen little that persuades me that the government is even interested in justice, though they *do* generally prefer that you follow their rules. (Unless it's to their advantage to have something to hang over your head.)
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Given that this is being done by Anonymous, I think it's fairly clear that they don't trust the government. Asking people who don't trust the government to depend on it to provide justice is, well, a bit unreasonable.
This doesn't mean I think they were right to do what they did. I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion. I *suspect* that they rushed to judgement, without sufficient evidence. OTOH, I've seen little that persuades me that the government is even interested in justice, though they *do* generally prefer that you follow their rules. (Unless it's to their advantage to have something to hang over your head.)
Then they should give people in the private sector and outside the government a way to verify the quality of information, the facts, to rate the source, etc. When you make a purchase on ebay or amazon you see ratings. Reputation even exists on Slashdot but it doesn't exist within Anonymous.
The only way to make it exist is through digital signatures. Even then we still need professions analyzing the information and doing forensics and we don't know the qualifications of the people in Anonymous.
Do you even understand the concept of Anonymous (Score:4, Informative)
You do understand that the whole concept of anonymity is to have no identity? Anonymous isn't a group of individuals because you can't be certain who is or isn't a member because they are all anonymous. The moment they get an individual identity, they are no longer anonymous.
Last weekend, a video was posted threathening dutch ISP and the dutch content mafia with a cyber attack by Anonymous, it turned out to be a kid who had no relation with them but there was no way to know this because you can't call up anon and ask them if anon, no the other anon, not that anon, you know the anon who knowns anon is really an anon. Well you could but the poor sap you end up calling randomly probably will hang up on you.
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You'd also better make sure you're trying to punish them for a real crime, and the right crime. What this guy did was sleazy, and to an extent illegal, but it was not rape, it was not murder, it was not assisted suicide, it was just plain pedo-bear skeezyness.
Try the dude for possession of child pornography, try the dude for coercing a minor, do what you have to do. Do NOT try to make this a whole schpiel about "Oh no, cyber bullies!" or try to charge this guy for her death in any way. Even if he is entirel
Sympathy .. (Score:3)
Perhaps my feeling of revulsion is best summarized by Adam Smith:
We blush for the impudence and rudeness of another, though he himself appears to have no sense of the impropriety of his own behaviour; because we cannot help feeling with what confusion we ourselves should be covered, had we behaved in so absurd a manner.
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Unfortunately it looks like she couldn't live with the results of her bad decision. I feel zero sympathy for this girl.
For someone who was tricked into exposing herself when she was 12??!?!
What a sad, sad person you are.
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They should each have to live with the consequences of their actions. She decided to show her boobs to him - stupid act, but she was a kid and they do stupid things. Her 'punishment' would have been the discomfort of knowing there are pictures of her out there.
He should have been prosecuted for the crimes he commited - production of child pornography, distribution of child pornography, probably something like corrupting a minor, extortion, cyber stalking, harassment,...
And my guess is that she would have fe
Re:For great justice... maybe? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Hope he's the right guy (Score:2)
Hope he's the right guy. If not, even if he is a piece of shit otherwise (and all signs point to "Yes!"), he's about to have to endure a shit storm of epic proportion fall upon him. And that would not be fair...
If he is the right guy...I will enjoy watching him self-destruct.
Outing is not the best solution (Score:4, Insightful)
Anonymous could have blood on their hands if the outrage becomes a lynch mob. I have no sympathy for the man, but the internet is a kangaroo court.
Re:Outing is not the best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
"I have no sympathy for the man, but the internet is a kangaroo court."
That is an insult to Kangaroos..
The internet is a unruly mob distracted by the latest shiny.
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this is intolerable (Score:5, Insightful)
If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency, not go public and taint both the investigation and public opinion. The detectives may have had the opportunity to seize evidence before the person knew he was under suspicion, or set up a sting operation. They'd also have the chance to clear the individual if he's innocent without the mess of threats of violence I presume this guy is now going to get.
Presuming this person is eventually charged and tried, Anonymous releasing this information can complicate the job of the prosecutor, having the opposite effect intended.
On the other hand, if this person is innocent, Anonymous just released a shitstorm on this poor guy that's going to be nearly impossible to get rid of until the police charge someone else.
I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.
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If Anonymous has material evidence that points to the guilt of a particular individual, they should turn that evidence over to the responsible law enforcement agency, not go public and taint both the investigation and public opinion. The detectives may have had the opportunity to seize evidence before the person knew he was under suspicion, or set up a sting operation.
I absolutely agree with this, particularly since I don't imagine the 'evidence' gathered by Anonymous would be admissible in court. If this is the case, then police would need to be able to gather their own evidence in order to prosecute.
In addition, if the actions of Anonymous make it possible for the man to claim he is unable to receive a fair trial due to jury prejudice (if indeed he is charged) then they will have just ruined an opportunity to see if the legal system can deal with cases like this approp
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I don't think Anonymous would come even close to the justice rate of even a mediocre justice system. It's like saying that being a little wrong is the same thing as being a lot wrong. There is a reason there is procedure. Anonymous probably didn't even know how the girl died before they tracked this person down, let alone all of the circumstances.
If you believe everything the news tells you, you get a lot of things wrong. People used to get lynched based on little more than what was reported, which unti
Re:this is intolerable (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see any situations where Anonymous' action result in a more positive outcome than would have come about through other choices.
The folks who identify themselves as Anonymous don't care. If they cut off income for thousands of merchants just to send a message to MasterCard, they call it a victory.
The actions of Anonymous aren't based in righteous concern for society. Rather, they're displays of overwhelming power trumping society's established systems, with a thin veneer of altruism to stave off any guilt.
Anonymous members aren't educated in ethics. They don't have any consequences for destroying someone's life. Anonymous enjoys the power of crowdsourced intelligence and abilities, without the responsibility that comes from actually caring for everyone fairly. An appropriate analogy is a newly-empowered dictator. He enjoys the support of the people because he's popular, and now he can kill anyone he wants for the good of the country.
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Anonymous members aren't educated in ethics.
I agree with your sentiment, but this here ^ - yeah, bank CEOs and politicians ARE educated in ethics, kind of a requirement for all of the education that they need. Has that made their respective industries more ethical, do you think?
Re:this is intolerable (Score:5, Funny)
bank CEOs and politicians ARE educated in ethics,
So that they will know how to avoid that ethical behavior when they are in office.
Re:this is intolerable (Score:5, Insightful)
From Wikipedia:
"The French Revolution (French: Révolution française; 1789–1799), was a period of radical social and political upheaval in France that had a major impact on France and throughout the rest of Europe. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation, as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from radical left-wing political groups, masses on the streets, and peasants in the countryside. Old ideas about tradition and hierarchy – of monarchy, aristocracy, and religious authority – were abruptly overthrown by new Enlightenment principles of equality, citizenship and inalienable rights."
Now, do you think that the upheaval of the aristocracy was sugar cookies and lemonade for the economy of France? What about all the merchants employed by the Aristocracy? How evil of those revolutionaries to do such a thing to the Aristocracy because it affected merchants!
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Re:this is intolerable (Score:4, Insightful)
Blaming the French revolution for Napoleon doesn't do it justice. The French revolution caused so much, much more than just a short lived French Empire. And thank God for that.
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A better comparison for Anonymous is a large Corporation.
Large group of individuals acting for common interests with a lack of personal accountability and moral restraint.
Re:this is intolerable (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem there is that evidence was (considering the source) almost certainly obtained through illegal action. (hacking) This cause three immediate problems. 1. most legal systems spoil evidence that has been obtained through illegal actions, 2. it may make assembling an unspoiled jury (that has not been exposed to the tainted evidence) difficult, and 3. it may make the same evidence, obtained through legal means, more difficult or impossible to bring to court.
The laws concerning spoilage of evidence are made to protect the innocent, but are most frequently called upon to protect the guilty. That's the unfortunate part of it. To protect the 1% of the innocent, the 99% of the guilty must go free. Love it or hate it? You'll probably hate it, until you're the 1%.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:this is intolerable (Score:5, Insightful)
How about the situation where a prosecution cannot be successful now. A clear line of defense is- all your evidence was planted by a group of hackers upset because I made an indecent comment about them or the recently deceased. We already know they "hacked" into things to get the information and make their declarations. I'm betting that most all evidence against him outside of a confession could be tossed aside as not reliable now. No one from anonymous would be likely to come out and admit it was them and ensure the evidence is legit.
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Because society is so accepting of child sexual abuse? According to the story the police have two dozen investigators assigned to this case!
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Anonymous is not one person, nor a group in one country. Let's be realistic here. Expecting a citizen of one country to know, follow and respect the laws of another country simply because you think that's the "right thing" is asinine at best.
Yes and no (Score:5, Insightful)
Should the police and the courts be given the appropriate amount of time to determine if there is sufficient evidence, or if a crime has in fact been committed
In theory yes, but the problem with bullying is that the legal system doesn't protect it sufficiently .. there is this double standard. The exact same behaviors that would be considered criminal just a few years later is dismissed as 'normal' (and you're told to 'ignore it') at school level. This is primarily when vigilantism becomes attractive - when the formal justice system fails to protect victims.
What should happen is that more forms of bullying should be criminalized, and the penalties should be harsher - e.g. physical assault should be treated more often as an adult crime and teens should be tried as adults for committing physical assault. And as with committing crime as an adult, there should be harsher consequences that follow you through life. Currently when leaving school, there are no negative consequences for bullies at all - not even a modicum of shame in the workplace (this is why I support more 'name and shame' efforts for even past bullies).
Unfortunately, much like battered wife syndrome, without formal recourse, desperate victims are sometimes forced and driven to either tragically commit suicide, or occasionally, take out their own tormentors in the worst cases (e.g. some school shootings). At least in the latter, if there is a silver lining, it's that there is some manner of repercussion for the perpetrators - that is what is sorely needed.
Re:Yes and no (Score:5, Insightful)
And all adulteresses should be forced to wear a scarlet "A"!
Children are not fully-formed adults, we can't treat them as such. They do not have full control over their lives as adults do. If you believe that children should be treated as adults than whatever age you believe that begins they should be allowed to drink, smoke, gamble and vote.
You can't have it both ways.
Re:Yes and no (Score:4, Insightful)
Hint: The reason children bully isn't because they simply don't and 'can't' understand they're doing something wrong. We also already expect children to understand it's wrong to murder, rape, stab, steal and more. It's hardly a stretch to say, OK, physically punching someone is wrong. We also teach them that various wrong things are wrong, whereas bullying we do not - we simply shrug and say 'kids will be kids' - you seem to honestly bizarrely and absurdly think that the only available options are 'scarlet As', and doing absolutely nothing like we do now. (If I were to venture a guess, I'd guess you bullied someone at school ... in which case of course you'd feel that way.) I won't even being to address the idiocy of your 'scarlet A' comment .. don't waste our time with straw men, thanks.
when's the cutoff point? (Score:4, Insightful)
My 2yo and 3yo sons regularly bite/scratch/beat on each other. In adults this would be assault and battery (possibly even aggravated assault). Are you proposing that they should go to jail?
I'm worried that someone asks (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this serious? Is someone on /. really wondering if it is better to let the police and the judiciary sytem decide if someone committed a crime and who it was, or just let anonymous (!) people do justice on their own?
Are people really nostalgic of the good old days of lynching etc.?
Revenge? (Score:5, Insightful)
What Anonymous is doing is called revenge. Revenge is not justice.
Re:Revenge? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more of a tragedy, that despite this great connected world, the girl was not able to find help, or help was not able to find her, before things went that far.
Revenge won't help her now.
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I think that's what struck me most about this story, that the poor girl found no one to talk to who would listen. It's scary to think how many other kids might be in that situation. It's scary because I suspect all it would take is for her to find even one person like possibly even you or I who she could talk to.
"Revenge won't help her now."
This is true, but to be fair, it may help others. If even one other jackass doing this sort of bullying is given pause for thought and made to think twice and lay off so
Parallel story - reddit 'troll' outed by gawker (Score:2)
A parallel story, not related to the case in question, but another instance of somebody being outed for their (in)actions:
http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web [gawker.com]
The person in that story might be a bit more on the verge of the defensible than those who would directly target a specific person - minor or otherwise - such as the one covered here.
Also related (Score:2)
Another related story about people being exposed appeared on Slashdot [slashdot.org] a few days ago. Fortunately that one had a happy ending (no pun intended): the names were published [dailymail.co.uk]. The First Amendment survives another brush with the false dignity of the powerful.
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innocent until proven guilty
You have conflated The Press with the justice system. Presumption of innocence applies to law and the prosecution of citizens. The Press suffers no such inhibitions. About the only limit the Press must observe is slander. The Press is not a court, the press operates no jails, the press seizes no property or serves any warrants.
As for the supposed 'tarnish' suffered; empowering the state to hide evidence from The Press is certain to be abused to protect powerful criminals. This is the greater evil.
Jumping on the vigilante wagon seems wrong (Score:2)
No honor among trolls? (Score:2, Insightful)
And should we trust Anonymous on this one? What if they are just covering for one of their own?
Opinions... (Score:2)
Due Process (Score:2, Insightful)
The primary issue with due process is that it is set up in order to preserve the life of an innocent person, at the cost of letting 9 guilty people go free. When you find yourself at the end of a legal cannon, you will be very happy for every line written that the system must jump through in order to prosecute you, legally.
Unfortunately, the worst of us know how to use this system to benefit themselves, and so as the web is drawn tighter, they simply make themselves more slippery until eventually the spide
crowdsourced prosecutor != crowdsourced jury (Score:4, Interesting)
I caught a few of the threads where the apparent perp was outed, and I was very encouraged at the volume of comments that basically said 'that's enough data, now let's turn it over to the authorities.' Crowdsourcing of evidence-gathering is terribly powerful, and it's nice to see that even in a large pool of people (in a vigilante mood) the majority still have a sense that there's a line between prosecutor and jury. Sure, there are issues with naming potentially innocent people, but when the crowd refrains from attack and turns to a judicial system, it's the best we can do.
According to Vancouver news: wrong address (Score:5, Informative)
The anonymous dox might have the WRONG address
http://www.cknw.com/news/vancouver/story.aspx?ID=1791555 [cknw.com]
there's the danger
Anonymous has not dished out Justice (Score:3)
They simply provided information.
"Anonymous right in short-circuiting what might in fact be a lengthy process with no guarantee that anyone will face charges?"
You would only be right to even ask that question if they set out to punished this person, they have simply acted as a journalist type group and released information about the case.
Then the irony comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Then the irony comes... (Score:5, Interesting)
This "Anonymous" is 4Chan and the crowd. They helped to participate in Todd's suffering. Next, they had a new target and went on to make him suffer. A new jackass pops up to participate in the event by placing a dead-girl picture next to a picture of Todd and he made himself yet another target.
Anonymous is not a bunch of do-gooders. They simply select "worthy targets" and try to make their lives hell. It's never about justice. But what's a worthy target? Anyone they feel is stupid. Todd was stupid for appearing nude on the internet and more stupid for getting angry about it and not learning about the Streissand effect. It goes on and on like that. And this target #2? He's just another of those 4Chanimals. They will turn on each other because they are not really a group or a collective. They don't travel in packs... they just go to the same web site(s) and screw around with each other for fun. And a few of them don't have a reasonable notion of what "too much" or "too far" is.
Of course, people will misunderstand the nature of these Anonymous people and somehow think they are of like mind and in some way organized. That's just not the case.
Re:Then the irony comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, she wasn't stupid. She was a child. There's a term for acting stupidly due to youth. Innocence.
Re:Then the irony comes... (Score:5, Insightful)
But what's a worthy target? Anyone they feel is stupid. Todd was stupid for appearing nude on the internet and more stupid for getting angry about it and not learning about the Streissand effect. It goes on and on like that.
It seems to me that the sentence you quoted is paraphrasing the attitude of the anonymous attackers, not the posters own opinion.
The Suspected Person Appeared In Court Yesterday (Score:5, Informative)
According to the following website, the suspected person appeared in court yesterday:
http://www.dailydot.com/news/amanda-todd-kody-maxson/ [dailydot.com]
Been there, done that (Score:3)
This is one of the truly new problems created by the Internet, and I look forward to watching how society struggles with coming up with a solution for it. The "lynch mob" analogy doesn't really work since members of mob aren't truly anonymous (though the KKK tried to achieve that), and the potential geographic separation between tormentor and victim is literally worldwide. So while there have been similar problems in the past, none are quite like this one.
Let me be blunt (Score:3, Insightful)
If the muslim may not need to feel attacked with all the anti muslim propaganda and advertising, and they should bravely ignore all insult, THEN that teen dying is her own damn fault and the troll asshole which pushed her to do it left alone.
You can't have it any other way, or you have to admit the muslim have a point.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Funny)
You forgot to blame Hitler, comic books, rock and roll, D&D, and video games.
The society is to blame (Score:4, Insightful)
From TFA:
A national child anti-exploitation group, cybertip.ca, says it received a tip almost a year ago about Todd.
A concerned citizen contacted the organization last November to report that images of Todd were being circulated online, said spokeswoman Signy Arnason.
"We did receive one report, and that was passed along to law enforcement as well as child welfare," Arnason said Monday. "It was not a report from her, but it was a report from a concerned citizen."
So ... the girl was tormented by an adult who posted her topless images on seedy sites and that so-called "national child anti-exploitation group" got a tip and what they did?
The spoke-woman claimed that they have passed that tip to the "law enforcement" as well as "child welfare".
That was when that little girl was still being tormented by that sick adult, and what happened?
Nothing !
Neither the police nor the child welfare nor that "national child anti-exploitation group" did anything to protect the girl.
She was so tormented, so helpless that she chose to end her life.
Whose fault was it?
The society !
All of us have turned into zombies.
When someone got tormented, we just did what we do - passing the buck.
Like what that "national child anti-exploitation group" did.
All they did was passing the buck to the police and then ... nothing.
What's the use of having a "national child anti-exploitation group" when they don't do nothing??
I'm not in any shape or form related to the anonymous but I do applaud what they have done in this case.
They have done what the police, the child welfare system and the national child anti-exploitation group have all failed to do - to flush that sick motherfucker out in the open.
Re:The society is to blame (Score:5, Insightful)
What if they are wrong?
Re:The society is to blame (Score:5, Insightful)
Whose fault was it?
Her parents.
I mean, what were they thinking stuffing her up with such prudery that she came to believe her life was over once she'd bared her breasts and it became public?
What. The. Fuck?
Her parents? I have heard nothing about them giving her grief when some asshole sent them, the kid's friends, and apparently teachers photos of the kid's boobs. They seemed to have been nothing but supportive.
It was getting beaten up, blackmailed, bullied, and harassed across something like 3 schools and 2 homes and 2 or 3 years that seemed to have driven her over the brink.
I've seen absolutely zero indication her parents were prudes nor that they didn't do everything they could to support her.
And you say it's their fault for not being able to instill a sense of calm rationality on a lonely, depressed, desperate young teen when calm rationality is exactly what kids that age are known for not possessing?
If I were her dad, I'd have sat her down and told her, "Blow it all off. It don't matter, and they're all just jealous, or pervs. You be proud of yourself. Besides (lifts his shirt), look at me. I've got a chest and even nipples. Big deal. Now go play with your friends and don't worry about it. Stand tall girl. You've nothing to be ashamed of."
You think showing her your boobs would make things better?
Oh, and she didn't have any friends, so "go play with your friends" is just going to rub that fact in.
I wish I could tell this to every kid entering puberty. Just stick it out, and when you get used to those hormones raging through you, you'll be able to handle it and will probably even enjoy it. It's just a phase we all go through. Hang in there. It won't be long now.
Oh, and the next time you see that jerk, kick him right in his piss-pump, just so he'll never forget how stupid he was letting you get away.
She never met "that jerk" - he set up fake Facebook profiles, friended her peers while posing as a soon-to-be new student at their school, then turned them against her. And he sent them all pics of her flashing the web cam.
And he's (if Anonymous is to be believed) ~30 years old, so he didn't "let her get away".
I have never seen a +5 that was so far off the mark.
Re: (Score:3)
What. The. Fuck?
I have never seen a +5 that was so far off the mark.
I too, had the same "Welcome To Facebook" moment after reading the reply.
No, I didn't reply because I know, if I had replied, I might lost all sanity and include all sorts of cuss-words in my reply.
It's not to say that the parents of the little girl are faultless, but then, placing the blames squarely at the parents is ... man, I'm at a loss of finding the right word to properly describe my disgust at this point.
It's our society, it's the way we are treating each others, it's everything connected to we, the
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She said she was alone and had no one helping her. She called for help to random strangers on the Internet.
Clearly, her parents were not helping her. They probably weren't even aware of her problems. The reason the girl didn't tell them is probably that she believed they wouldn't understand or be of any help, which is a sign of bad parent-child relationship.
Clueless parents not able to c
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She said she was alone and had no one helping her.
She said she "had nobody" and "needed someone" - she very likely meant a friend, as opposed to a parent. Even the most supportive parents aren't a substitute for a friend.
She called for help to random strangers on the Internet.
She seems to have told her story on the internet as a warning for others.
Clearly, her parents were not helping her. They probably weren't even aware of her problems. The reason the girl didn't tell them is probably that she believed they wouldn't understand or be of any help, which is a sign of bad parent-child relationship.
Clueless parents not able to connect with their children and help them in times or need are to blame.
Clearly the only one clueless is you.
While awaiting her father to pick her up from school, she was beaten up by a group of girls, and dumped in a muddy puddle. Her father found her laying in a ditch. Her parents and others received pictures from her web cam mistake
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There are many facets to this story of which your are unaware.
Yes, there are. I've been hearing about it for about a week, but have been trying to avoid it: i) she's gone, so I can't help her any longer. ii) I'm not a voyeur. iii) the full story will eventually come out. That's better than speculating. iv) ...
Thx for the youtube link.
Poor kid. Very, very sad.
Re:The society is to blame (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you think your daughter will, in her teens, rationally consider your words and think "yes, he's right?" It sounds like this girl was suffering from massive depression. If you think you could work against something like that by "just being nice" you're sadly mistaken. I'm not calling your parenting into question - just stating that there are things that are very much out of your control.
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The poster is self deluded and pretty damn clueless about child behavior. In 20 years he will be posting about how his daughter made all the wrong decisions, but it's not his fault becasue he talked to her and told her everyone is just dickheads.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
Atheism leads to this.
I'm pretty sure you don't need to believe in God to consider rape and murder unethical, immoral, and just wrong. In fact, plenty of people have pointed out (repeatedly) the fallacy of assuming that one needs God and/or religion to be good, so there is no reason to say more on that topic here. Go forth and Google.
The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this.
I'm not sure what the "culture of contraception" is, but I am pretty sure it does not lead to this kind of behavior, either. In fact, I strongly suspect this behavior - in general, minus the Internet - predates the widespread availability of contraception.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure you don't need to believe in God to consider rape and murder unethical, immoral, and just wrong.
Pretty much. If fear of God is all that keep you you from doing bad things then you are not a good person.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Child porn (aka the picture of Amanda's breasts) is a felony. Her death was caused by that felony. Does that make it felony murder? (Yes, I know - she was Canadian and the laws aren't the same in Canada...)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:4, Insightful)
Atheism leads to this.
What does Atheism have to do with any of this? Because I don't believe there's an invisible man in the sky means I don't have any morals?
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
That kind of person scares me. What happens if they ever lose their faith? They'll turn into raping, murdering lunatics since God was the only thing keeping them decent.
"Anything done out of fear has no moral value"
Re: (Score:3)
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have believing that nonsense
No, they don't. The part about it being "a man" is called anthropomorphism, which the three reject. The part about it being "in the sky" is called idolatry, which the three also reject. The only correct point would be the "invisible" one, but even that arguably so given that's a property of every abstract out there (numbers, logical concepts etc.).
I'm not sure if your question was merely rhetorical, or if you are a {troll|idiot}.
Well, my guess is that both you and the OP are going for a straw man fallacy [wikipedia.org], but if not, we can continue.
Re: (Score:3)
it does make it a reasonable description of their God.
Only if the sentence "the belief that an explosion in a junkyard can produce a fully functional airplane" counts as a reasonable description of evolution, which it evidently doesn't. Straw man is as straw man goes.
Thus, unless one's going to talk about an existing sect within one of the existing branches of one of the existing Abrahamic religions, said sect actually believing and preaching that God indeed and literally is an "invisible man in the sky", that argumentative path doesn't apply. And even if ther
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not Christianity; that's Puritanism, which is (or was) a distinct sect within Christianity, heavily influenced by asceticism, which is a non-religious philosophy. Americans probably have a higher correlation between Christianity and Puritansim, as many of their initial settlers were Puritans getting the hell out of England, but it's still a false equivalency. It's like saying that all atheists believe life came about due to extra-terrestrial contact, just because Erich von Däniken is an atheist.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
b) if a girl shows her breasts, she is a slut and a whore and should be ashamed of herself and do whatever it takes to have no one find out about it,
More generally, I'm also perplexed by the social double-standard where men who have (had) multiple sex-partners (or are sexually aggressive, for lack of a better word) are "studs", but women are "sluts". Seems like a bunch of misogynistic bullshit from insecure men to make women feel second-rate. (I'm a guy, by the way.)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Funny)
More generally, I'm also perplexed by the social double-standard where men who have (had) multiple sex-partners (or are sexually aggressive, for lack of a better word) are "studs", but women are "sluts".
Women call women who sleep around sluts. Men just call them.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not calling the women sluts because they had sex. They're calling the women sluts because they disagree with them, want to silence them, and character assassination often works.
Aspersions about their sex habits are the tool, the motive is power.
Re: (Score:3)
The quantity of gametes produced by and the possible reproductive frequency of each gender are grossly disproportional. As a male I am (theoretically) fertile at all times from puberty until I die and am not biologically constrained to fathering children once every nine months. Social stigmatization, morals, ethics and child support aside, I am want to spread my seed as much as possible. Women, however, are relatively constrained in their ability to reproduce and it is much more expensive for them. Not to m
Re: (Score:3)
This idea has complex social and biological origins and is not totally absurd. Men and Women are quite different in some things, even though they are quite alike in many others.
Ya, I get that, but the concept is obsolete, especially if you accept that women have (or should have) control over their own bodies and that men should respect women as equals. Both sexes have responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
But what we are talking about here is perception, how humans see individuals of both sexes that engage in "promiscuity", for lack of a better word. That has not only social roots as biological roots. Men do not and will probably never see a promiscuous woman as a desired partner, because instinctively we want them to carry our genes and not somebody else's. Women on the other hand will always carry their own genes, and so they instinctively look for other things in their partners, usually strength and dominance, which are usually traits of men disputed by many women, thus making male promiscuity actually instinctively attractive.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:4, Funny)
A key that opens many locks is a master key. A lock that can be opened by many keys is a shitty lock.
Not saying I agree with it, but the analogy fits fairly well.
/. Dating Tip #67: Don't use that analogy with a date / girlfriend - ever.
[ And I would avoid using the phrase "master key" in most dating situations. ]
Re:It's all tied together (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how people would feel if they realized that, agnostic to the possibility of a deity existing, their "god" likely isn't much more than a warped internalization of their parents ... kind of the adult version of an imaginary friend.
Thus making religion a manifestation of something along the lines of the sense of security of the family, the anxieties of growing up, and the fear of encountering dangers outside of the family, etc...
Basically, people like the sense of familiarity and try to maintain some semblance of it into adulthood so they feel more secure and sure of themselves. It gets spooky when you realize that that sense of familiarity is frequently not the positive kind.
This is usually where I get accused of being atheistic...
Re: (Score:2)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
This is rape and murder [blogspot.com]. Maybe not by society's definition. Maybe not by the liberalized culture that thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun. Or that consent is always equivalent to permission. So as much as I consider what anonymous has done to be vigilantism; one cannot say that this man, or the teenage boy, or any of the rest of this poor girl's tormentors are innocent.
It's all tied together. Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this. The only thing left to do is learn from it instead of repeating the same mistakes as the hippie generation.
Emphasis mine... you were doing so well up until this point. Straw man fallacy. Atheism does not lead to this. Amorality leads to this. It is 100% possible to be an atheist with morals. In fact, I can list thousands of amoral things organized religion has done to the world. (Inquisition, Jihad, etc.) Your argument is bullshit.
Consent and contraception leads to healthy, happy relationships without unwanted children to screw things up. Those allow you to adequately plan for your child's future, save up for their lives, and be prepared for when they actually arrive. With consent and contraception, you have the opportunity to provide a better, properly planned life instead of one that leads to divorce, single-parent homes and priests molesting children. (See? I can straw-man too!)
Remember: Treat your religion like your penis. Don't whip it out every chance you get, and please don't jam it down my throat. Because that would be gay. And we all know what you extremist religious types feel about gayness.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
This is rape and murder [blogspot.com]. Maybe not by society's definition.
So then it's not rape and murder.* What other definition actually counts for anything?
Maybe not by the liberalized culture that thinks tricking a 14 year old into baring her breasts on the internet is just good clean fun.
Also not by any level-headed person including those who do think that tricking a 14 year old into exposing herself is a hideous thing to do.
From the page you linked to:
Thus, homosexuality is rape. Thus, one night heterosexual stands are rape. Thus, premarital sex, even with "consent", is rape.
Confirmed: you are an idiot. Doubly so if you actually wrote that and don't just agree with it.
Society's rejection of morality and ethics leads to this. Atheism leads to this. The culture of consent and contraception, leads to this.
No, no, and no. You know what leads to this? Humans. We are all (including the Pope, no matter what the Catholics are told to believe) fallible. We do some shitty things sometimes, and just as many of those things have been in the name of a god as not. Grow out of talking to your imaginary friend and take some collective responsibility along with the rest of us soul-less animals.
Also, find a friend to get laid with. It's awesome!
*Disclaimer: I do think that what happened to this poor girl is terrible and those responsible should face the full force of the law, such as it is. I just decided to focus more on this poster for being a cock-womble.
Re: (Score:2)
Okay. I read your blog post at the link. Your definition of rape omits the concept of consent, and randomly includes premarital sex (which would fit the definition in the first line) and homosexuality. Good luck with your mimeographed newsletter; I shall file you under "troll" and carry on. I sine Deus.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:It's all tied together (Score:4, Informative)
(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings â" Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba â" died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
---
Oh yea.... religion is really against rape except for young women who are untouched by man.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This rape is commanded and approved by the deity and major priests.
Don't get me started on what they do to "suckling babes" who don't follow the religion. It's not pretty. The character Yahweh is one evil, psychotic, amoral, sadistic, narcissitic bastard and/or he considers humans to be about as important as we consider ants. I have no problem kicking over an ant hill.
Then again, I don't talk to them and control their affairs on a personal basis either.
Re: (Score:3)
In no way is tricking a child into such a thing acceptable by any definition. Children must be protected from all of society and sometimes from their own parents. Society never rejected morality. The Internet is not society. Nor is society found in the Internet. It is its own culture. In spectacular opposition to meatspace, here the extreme tend to gain the most attention. In the faceless rabble, there be dragons.
Despite the past missteps by anonymous, there is good work done and more to do. There's no plac
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're right, I probably wouldn't believe whatever you tell me about that.
Re:It's all tied together (Score:5, Insightful)
being raped is no longer shameful but something for women to take pride in
i'm supposed to behave and be diplomatic in my responses, but for anyone to form the thought you just wrote requires a special combination of being a fucking moron and a sick douchebag all in one neat steaming pile
Re: (Score:3)
But isn't that a big double standard? If two people go out, both get stupid drunk and have sex, why is that considered a one sided rape? If consent laws are to be enforced, then charge them both.
Re:Anyone else having a hard time feeling sorry? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, "you own your own actions", etc, but for some of these kids the internet is their entire community or peer group, it is much more difficult to shrug off.
It's amazing what a few years out of high school will do to restore one's perspective-- don't kill yourselves, kids, it really does get better!
Re: (Score:3)
But does she really have anyone to blame but herself? Seriously, some random guy on the Internet asks her to show her tits and she does it?
I'd be more inclined to blame the society that would make her (or teach her to be) afraid and ashamed of her behavior. I know she was a minor, but it was her body and, in a more ideal world, she should have felt more comfortable, saying to anyone and everyone, "ya, I show him my breasts, now fuck off."