US House STEM Visa Bill Fails 133
dcblogs writes "A Republican-led effort to issue up to 55,000 STEM visas a year to students who earn advanced degrees at U.S. universities was defeated in a House vote. It needed a two-thirds vote, or about 290 ayes, for approval. Its supporters came up short, 257 to 158. Both parties support green cards for science, technology, engineering and math advanced degree grads, but can't agree on legislation. U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY), who has introduced his own STEM bill, urged House leaders to seek new negotiations: 'A bipartisan compromise can easily be ready for the lame duck session. There is too broad a consensus in favor of this policy to settle for gridlock.'"
H1B (Score:2, Interesting)
Did they exhaust the H1B limit already?
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I heard H1B's go pretty fast, often times companies will gobble the vast majority up.
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Did they exhaust the H1B limit already?
The limit for H1B's for FY2013 was reached on June 11, 2012 [uscis.gov] already. The filing of H1B's for FY2014 will (probably) open up on April 1st, 2013. I'm sure a number of corporations have a few petitions ready to be filed.
Why 2/3 ... (Score:3)
The bill was brought up under a procedure that limits debate and doesn't allow amendments but requires a two-thirds majority for passage.
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How does that happen? Is that a provision of how the bill was introduced? Does someone raise a motion?
Im a little ignorant of how these sorts of things happen, and not exactly sure what to google-- what is this procedure called?
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It seems every bill needs a 2/3 majority, even if they use the procedure that should only need a simple majority. One guy just threatens a filibuster, and it becomes an 'oh, no, we need a 2/3 majority now to break it'.
Maybe the rule should be at least changed so that the member who announces a filibuster gets a really hard kick to the groin. Then maybe they'll only do it for the stuff they actually believe in.
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Re:Gridlock is real (Score:5, Insightful)
If they cant agree on something as trivial as this, it appears that stopping this freight train before reaching fiscal cliff is a very real impossibility.
Perhaps. But before people go blaming Congress for all the problems with government, consider that congressmen, for the most part, are just doing whatever it takes to get re-elected. The Tea Partiers, for example, were elected on the promise that they wouldn't compromise, wouldn't work with the other side, and wouldn't let the Democrats and Obama ever accomplish anything. And they've lived up to those promises.
The American people are as much to blame as anyone. We constantly demonize the other side and our politics are increasingly polarized, we have special TV programs and web sites that reflect our own biased worldview back at us, and we elect people based on this worldview. Then we act surprised and disappointed when the people we elect can't ever get any legislation passed.
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Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?
Re:Gridlock is real (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't you hate it when politicians do what they said they would?
Well, that is the opposite of what we generally expect them to do.
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No. I don't expect government to keep voting to spend more money. If that stops, then YEAH!
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Well, when the other side shows you nothing but disdain and resorts to constant name calling (tea baggers) for 3 years, what compromises do you expect to be reached? Honestly, the only compromise the democrats seem willing to do is with the more "conservative" democrats.
Did You See the Daily Show? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Daily Show the other night had a funny little piece where they talked to republicans and democrats at the national conventions to ask them how to overcome gridlock. It results in an orgy of insults directed at the other party, from both sides, that amused me pretty well.
I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously, but having family spread out between both parties, I can say it was fairly accurate in my experience. Both sides want to say that the world would be a magical fairy land if only the other side wasn't made up of complete jackasses that are only out to fuck up the plans of the other party.
In sum: yes, Tea Party has been made fun of it. But how did the Tea Party start? There's a constant bashing of Obama as a socialist and democrats as wanting to propogate a lazy welfare state. O-bum-a, Commrade Obama, I've heard it all. Name calling is on both sides, and is the main problem with our gridlock. There are groups in each party that are so desperately out to smear the other side that we never get a real debate. Personally, I do not agree with much of what the republican platform says this time around, but there is an important difference between not agreeing and going out of my way to insult people of the other party. I am sure that the majority of common people in each party (many politicians excluded) absolutely mean well for the country, and believe their platform really will be best. No secret agenda to give money to lazy welfare queens, or give tax breaks to rich people. The majority of voters aren't thinking that; they are thinking, what plan seems best to get the country going again?
When the everyday people recognize this, that just because the other approximately half of the country doesn't vote the same as you DOES NOT mean they are unpatriotic jackasses out to ruin the country, then perhaps we can get somewhere. But this is going to have to be a team effort from both parties. And I am sad to say that the current older generations of the country seem to prefer the gridlock and blame, or at least are stuck in this idea that "that's the way it is". I hope this will change with the younger generations as they start taking over congressional seats.
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I know it is a comedy show and perhaps can't be taken too seriously,
Despite the comedy nature and Jon Stewart's heavy left-leaning, hes a pretty insightful dude. Ive heard hes moderately popular because of that, in fact.
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The American people are as much to blame as anyone.
Oh, don't worry: I hold them in even lower estimation than anyone elected to congress. Thing is I have no way of controlling them or voting them out. A hoard of ignorant fellow voters is a constant, the elected on the other hand can sometimes be changed for the better.
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Er... that should be "horde." Probably a sign from the universe that I should re-evaluate whether or not I'm part of the ignorant voters...
Oh, I don't know, isn't hoarding ignorant voters more commonly referred to as "playing to the base"?
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Trent Lott in an NPR interview once said that the advent of always on media coverage of politics was one of the best, and worst, things to happen to our political system.
(Best because yay transparency, worst because it polarizes the two sides: reaching across the aisle now risks branding you as a traitor / RINO / "fake democrat" / whatever else)
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Why would we want more immigrants flooding our best universities? We need more americans there! That would help the US education problem. I find it hilarious that leftists want more money spent on US public schools, more restrictions on private schools, yet at the university level, they want to bring in more foreigners.
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And all those philli-busters he did as well! Why does he hate merkins?!!!
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Re:Gridlock is real (Score:4, Insightful)
This is trivial?
Bringing cheap workers to replace the only jobs not yet outsourced is a trivial thing?
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We dont have an AAA rating.
Wow! (Score:4, Interesting)
So dumb, they can't pass a law that allows smart people to stay in their country WHEN BOTH THEY AND THOSE PEOPLE STILL WANT TO STAY.
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no they don't.. they'll stay and funnel money back home until the limit expires and they can move back.
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Your website makes no sense. Who wants to be "free" if you have to live in Alberta?
It backwards rationalizes everything. I would far rather have an educated society than $10 off my property taxes.
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Smart people don't usually have just one metric that they blindly follow, and instead take other things into consideration also.
STEM Visas being held hostage (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
When smart people with the means to immigrate come to this country Its a benefit to us even to American smart people. The idea
that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models. Immigration to the US goes down when unemployment goes up.
I want you techies to view it this way. When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.
More visas now= generations of asian and eurasian hotties for your grandsons(or granddaughters...I support equal rights for lgbt folks)
Re:Not really (Score:5, Informative)
Immigration doesn't have to depress wages, just as Free Trade doesn't have to, but that is what it is being designed to do. The Democratic bill is marginally better in that it at least as a review of the effects of STEM visas.
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These "STEM visas" are green cards, which allow these people to stay permanently in the US. Although employment is needed for sponsor, they are in no way guest-worker type.
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First off... I applaud you sir. This post made my morning that much better. Thank you.
Secondly, with the immigration of STEM folks, I'd be willing to bet that many of these workers will demand comparable wages, because they know what the market is offering and there is a cost of living here to do those jobs. We can look at short term costs, and experience, and say that there are some otherwise perfectly capable geeks here who are still looking for jobs... And there are. The thing is... STEM unemploymen
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That is totally fair. I do not know what STEM employment would be if programmers are excluded. If I remember right, there is something like 30% unemployment for people with a Ph.D. in Math, but I do not know what the figure is... I'm having a hard time finding a real number too... I know.. Irony.
I don't think the outcome of this bill would have had much effect on people on the level of a Ph D. My understanding is most of these Visas are for folks in the Bachelor/Masters range (which means these workers
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I disagree that this benefits America or Americans. I think it further reduces wages and increases competition in a very small field, which de-incentivizes Americans, but is still attractive to Asians who still see it as a step up. The reality is we have too MANY techies, mostly operating beneath their potential because what we actually need are a large number of technologically educated MBAs, an even larger number of technicians but a very small number of STEM types.
But trade schools in the US are sneered
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Perhaps it'd depress wages for high skill jobs, but I suspect it would also lead to an explosion of innovation in all fields.
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When smart people with the means to immigrate come to this country Its a benefit to us even to American smart people.
No, they're competitors. There aren't enough 'smart people' jobs to go around.
The idea that immigration depresses wages is based on flawed static economic models.
Says who? The crapola I've read suggests there's a lot of disagreement here, most of which correlates with party lines. That doesn't bode well for ANY of the studies.
I want you techies to view it this way. When immigrants from asia come to this country they have little asian girls, who grow up to be
asian hotties who like marrying nerds who produce the holy grail the eurasian hottie who likes nerds.
So it's alright if these American 'techies' get their asses canned for cheap asian labor because they'll have access to asian pussy? Wow, that's pathetic.
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New jobs come from demand.. how can demand increase when the population buying the goods is supplanted? Right now there are already more available workers than there are jobs.. Bringing in immigrants to train at our universities instead of training out of work americans to take these jobs isn't right.
My apologies (Score:2)
Afro-asian girls and hispanic-asian girls are all good too.
In our utopian nerd tech future....EVERYONE GETS SOME!
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage. But I'd rather be competing against 55,000 green card holders, who can negotiate fairly with their employers for a competitive wage than completing against 55,000 H1B workers who are (mostly) tied to a single employer and have a significant disadvantage in any salary/etc. negotiation.
So does one of the parties want to eliminate/reduce the H1B visas and replace them with green cards? Because if so, then I support them on this.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree than any additional 'supply' will lower the average wage.
That's not necessarily the case. You're assuming that with more people, everyone has to get a smaller slice of the pie. But the size of the pie isn't fixed. People willing to uproot themselves and their families to go halfway around the world tend to be motivated and they tend to be risk-takers. That means they start businesses at a much higher rate than native-born Americans. A recent study found that immigrants are 13% of the population, but 18% of the small business owners. They employed $4.7 million people in 2007. Some of the companies founded by immigrants become big companies as well... Sergei Brin, who was born in the USSR, founded this thing called Google you may have heard of. Immigrants are innovators as well- think of Tesla, Einstein, von Braun. So when you recruit the best and brightest the world has to offer, the technologies and companies these people found will make the economy stronger, and that will increase the number and quality of jobs.
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The other obvious problem; THEY'RE VISAS! Once the visa expires they have to leave the country.
Moron.
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Your argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that these people will start businesses. Most of these people will work for existing corporations, not start their own businesses. Thus they will be reducing the number of jobs not increasing them.
Thats not necessarily true. If the companies are helped to succeed by their employees, more jobs tend to be created by those companies.
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You free-market conservatives make a strong case for growth economies, but my mommy and daddy said that if I do as you say and start voting against the Republicans, baby Jesus will cry.
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Republicans dont believe in growth economies? News to me.
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (Score:4, Informative)
The Diversity Lottery gives priority to people from countries that have low rates of immigration to the U.S.
Forget about the "intent" of this lottery for a moment and instead consider what it actually does.. it gives priority to someone from France over someone from Mexico or China, and its simply because fewer people from France want to come and work here. Mexicans and Chinese are not allowed in the Diversity Lottery because more than 50,000 of each have immigrated in the past 5 years, a statistic that disallows them from even entering the lottery.
Here is the list of countries ineligible for DV2013 (according to Wikipedia):
Bangladesh, Brazil, Canada, China (mainland-born), Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.
This new law would re-target the Diversity Visa's to give priority to people with advanced degrees, instead of to people from the 'right' country. What do Democrats have against people from the above listed countries? That is, essentially, what they are arguing.. that something is wrong with those people.
Top Countries using DV (Score:2)
From http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_us_vis_lot_win-immigration-us-visa-lottery-winners [nationmaster.com]
Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Nigeria: 7,145 US visa lottery winners
# 2 Ghana: 7,040 US visa lottery winners
# 3 Ethiopia: 6,353 US visa lottery winners
# 4 Kenya: 5,721 US visa lottery winners
# 5 Poland: 5,467 US visa lottery winners
# 6 Bangladesh: 5,126 US vis
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Does anyone what these people do after coming to the US? Are they instantly eligible for food stamps, social security benefits, medicare/medicaid, unemployment etc. ?
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I hope so. I could have used those things immediately when I lived abroad. You start contributing to the economy immediately. That sort of thing encourages people to stick around, and not just any people -- it takes some determination, intelligence, and luck to move to a different country.
I've had the shoe on the other foot. You should try it sometime. Things look very different.
Re:Top Countries using DV (Score:4, Informative)
Does anyone what these people do after coming to the US? Are they instantly eligible for food stamps, social security benefits, medicare/medicaid, unemployment etc. ?
1) You generally need to work for one year before you can get unemployment benefits for being laid off.
2) You are eligible for premium-free Part Medicare A if you are age 65 or older and you or your spouse worked and paid Medicare taxes for at least 10 years.
3) The Affordable Care Act of 2010, signed by President Obama on March 23, 2010, creates a national Medicaid minimum eligibility level of 133% of the federal poverty level ($29,700 for a family of four in 2011) for nearly all Americans under age 65. This Medicaid eligibility expansion goes into effect on January 1, 2014. Undocumented immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid regardless of their income, and legal immigrants who have resided in the U.S. for less than five years are also not eligible, though states have the option of extending Medicaid coverage to legal immigrant children and pregnant women who are in the 5-year waiting period.
4) For Social Security, most qualified aliens are ineligible for SSI until they become U.S. citizens. Moreover, a worker must have 10 years of Social Security-covered employment to be eligible for retirement benefits.
5) Non-citizens like tourists and students are generally not eligible for SNAP (food stamps). Non-citizens who must meet an additional condition need only meet ONE of the following conditions to be eligible for SNAP: 5 years of residence, 10 years of work, children under 18, blind or disabled, elderly born on or before 8-22-31 who lawfully resided in the U.S. on 8-22-96, or active duty in the military.
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I mean, I don't think it's great reasoning either, but try not to deliberately misrepresent the other side of the argument; it actually hurts your side.
Are you suggesting that its wrong to call a political party a bunch of racist bigots just because they support a policy that disproportionately effects minorities? Thats not what Democrats told me. [google.com]
Re:STEM Visas being held hostage (Score:4, Insightful)
See, those college grads are the last segment of society wherein somebody who comes from a lower-class family can make it into solidly middle-class or better category.
The ultimate goal of our overlords is to end social mobility.]
A year before Ronald Reagan took office, the United States was #1 in the world in social mobility, meaning the possibility that a person born in one class could move up in his lifetime. Today, the United States is #31 among OECD nations.
Yes, our overlords want to lower the wages of college grads. When people from lower classes achieve social mobility, they gain political power. When that happens, it's like someone dropped a turd in the overlords' infinity swimming pool.
Ronald Reagan changed America. Yes he did. And now, if you actually work for a living, you are either fucked or about to be fucked. Because we've had 30+ years of uninterrupted Reagan economic policies.
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A year before Ronald Reagan took office, the United States was #1 in the world in social mobility, meaning the possibility that a person born in one class could move up in his lifetime. Today, the United States is #31 among OECD nations.
You should look at this cohort study [mitpressjournals.org]:
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That's right, the big drop in social mobility started for the kids born right about then.
During the Carter years, even with a somewhat stagnant economy, you still had a great deal of mobility. The effects of the Reagan years starts hitting those born in the 70's. Understand, "social mobility" means if you're born at the low end of the economic scale, you have a chance to move up,
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58 percent of the households in the lowest income quintile in 1996 moved to a higher category by 2005.(data here) [stlouisfed.org]. I don't see the problem.
I make a ton more than my father, and was born around 1970.
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Seems to me-- ignorant, non-elected individual that I am-- that the thing to do would be to pass the thing everyone agrees upon (so as not to continue pissing off the constituency), and argue about the other stuff later.
I mean, we could also just lump all of the years issues into one gigantic Megabill, and argue about it for the next 10 years, but that seems counterproductive. But thats just me.
don't fall into the same trap as the UK (Score:4, Interesting)
To clarify (Score:2)
If you pass this bill don't fall into the same trap as the UK. Only allow degrees accredited by Universities with a proven academic record, and not any "overseas branches". Even reputable Universities can be tempted by overseas operations [telegraph.co.uk], and it is much harder to deal with after the event after the event [bbc.co.uk].
I realised that it might not be obvious what I'm talking about. Some "low end" educational establishments just become a means to buy a visa rather than teaching the students to any reasonable degree.
Bad news for whole tech industry (Score:3)
Now where are they going to find those rare Java programmers who will work at "reasonable" rates?
Possibly relevant (Score:5, Informative)
An analysis of whom the US lets in, versus other countries (Short article, has two infographics):
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/27/160110929/immigration-who-the-u-s-lets-in-and-why [npr.org]
Spoiler:
The short answer: The U.S. mostly lets in family members of people who are already in this country. Other developed countries focus much more on letting in workers.
Re:Possibly relevant (Score:4, Insightful)
The reality is that in America we must protect the family, and we must realize that the business of America is bidness. This is why I thought the dream act made so much sense. We have kids who have gone through a US education system, and who are ready for college or trade school. In many schools they are receiving very good SEM prep educations, and they are very motivated to study. If they finish college and get a job, why not let them stay. Why does it make more sense to import adults?
Here is my theory on the current status. Talking to am executive at a major multinational, it seems the H!B was primarily used for multinationals to assign workers, often temporarily, to the US, and but winter and summer resorts to gain skilled employees, usually ski instructors and the like. It boomed with IT looking for skilled workers and realizing that H1B visa workers were cheaper and in effect became indentured servants for the length of the time it took them to get a green card. This is the same thing with teach for america. Two years of guaranteed work without complaint, then leaving before one is vested.
Missing from summary (Score:5, Informative)
The party of NO (Score:2)
So, Republicans are so accustomed to blocking or voting down bills in the house that they have ended this bill that they themselves have started. How ironic.
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What makes you think that the Republicans blocked this bill?
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What makes you think that the Republicans blocked this bill?
The Congressional record.
I'll explain it to you, since it's not immediately obvious. This bill was introduced by the GOP, and they waited until the Suspension Calendar to submit it. This means instead of the normal number of votes needed to pass, which they easily had, it requires a 2/3's majority, which they do not have. The bulk of the bill matches what the Dems wanted, but they made sure to include some things which they knew the Dems would not vote for. Specifically, it takes visas away from the "lotter
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I think that's a very fair assessment of the situation, but that's not the Republicans /blocking/ the bill. That's the Republicans introducing a bill that is neither capable of nor intended to pass. There's a difference there and to claim this is Republicans blocking the bill /or/ Democrats blocking the bill is to do a disservice to the citizens because the connotations associated are then wrong.
Also, it takes away from the Diversity Lottery, which is an odd lottery among the visas since it gives visas to
Fucking insane (Score:3, Insightful)
We have high unemployment. We have had over 48 straight months of our labor force participation rate falling. We have also had a record number of people in college or go back to college in the last 3 years.
Why are we trying to bring in MORE PEOPLE that will take jobs away from US CITIZENS???
Jesus tap dancing Christ!
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...and having an MBA you may have the business knowledge but that doesn't mean shit if you don't have a product to sell...
Point being, it doesn't matter what the degree is, either way you're going to need some extra knowledge. Just because you have a degree that implies you can actually build shit doesn't mean you can't possibly know how to make a business from it. Personally I'd say it puts you in a better place than someone with a business degree, because then you can actually have a product or at least p
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these are STEM jobs douche bag. Which means they will work for a corporation not start one. Having a STEM degree doesn't mean you have financial means or business knowledge to start a business.
Immigrant business founders tended to be highly educated - 96% held bachelor's degrees and 74% held graduate or postgraduate degrees, with 75% of these degrees in STEM fields (i.e. your "douche bags").
The vast majority of these company founders didn't come to the United States as entrepreneurs - 52% came to study, 40%
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU [youtube.com]
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FTFY.
The answer: because this is America, and freedom is more important than whatever it is that the Central Committee is telling today, you about their economic plan.
If you don't like American ideals, then go back to Cuba or North Korea. I don't know why you ever applied for your green card at all.
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Stem pay is still VERY low compared to how valuable the work is. The mbas won't let the money flow down.
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True. But they will have to eventually. There are too many MBAs.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU [youtube.com]
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Actually it's underemployment. There's a need for more people which could be filled if we bothered to educate people who are currently unemployed....
You must not have read my entire post then. I specifically state a record number of people in college and returning to college. There was money in the stimulus bill that provided for retraining and advanced degrees. Many states also encouraged retraining and advanced degrees. We saw enrollment numbers surge across the nation. But instead we will give the jobs away to foreigners.
Awesome!
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More people in college does not necessarily mean more people being highly educated...too many easy As and MBAs...
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Nice...
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The foreign students don't come here for free. They pay full tuition price and buy food and spend money. It's not like we subsidize them.
In fact, they're subsidizing the local students. They usually pay the higher fees while they're here. Local students, at least in the western states have a lot of it covered, although that's becoming less true. It makes up for the shortages in income that the "public" universities are suffering from the long term privatization efforts started around the time of Gov. R
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Here is the problem with that; we're producing bumper crops of retarded kids. Yes, the Facebook dwelling, console gaming, dope smoking idiots that we produce are hardly capable of delivering pizza. Do you know what our education systems focus on? SPORTS, yes indeed. Fuck math, science and all that jazz, little Johnny needs to worry about ball games, that's his ticket. We can produce some modern gladiators but it seems little else with our fucked in the head priorities.
You can blame a lot of factors for this
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This thread was a wonderful demonstration of what the problem with todays politics are.
Re:Fucking insane (Score:5, Informative)
Video proof that we have companies finding ways to disqualify American workers in favor of cheap immigrant labor. [youtube.com]
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Those poor republicans... (Score:1)
After all, your election was all about you, not about the rest of the country.
And thank you, samzenpus, for again providing a pro-conservative bit on the front pag
Rediculous (Score:1)
All these ridiculous visas for the rich, or if you're smart are just stupid. Illegal immigration is stupid. It should be easy to get here if you're a good person, plain a
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Take it up with the constitution.
Some info about bills (Score:1)
Here are the list of 3 bills proposed by different politicians. Each of them have advantages and disadvantages in their own reasons.
Bill from Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) -- http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231276/Republicans_ready_STEM_Jobs_Act_ [computerworld.com]
- Replace DV lottery program with STEM visa
- Only those who obtained a doctorate or master degree from a U.S. university (or those who obtained a doctorate from a foreign university) are eligible, including courses/programs taking from online
- Allow th
What about citizens that are already here? (Score:1)
Are you sure? (Score:1)
Your statement is comical and full of crap. Here's why:
*An of these visa's including the current permanent residency Employment based visas are issued only after the sponsoring company shows proof that there was not a US citizen/existing permanent resident that they could find to fill the position. This is called PERM labor certification. The process is randomly audited to prevent fraud.
2. There are 86,275 tech jobs listed on just Dice.com as of today. If you are not eligible to be hired for any of these
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"Uuh, I can't compete, save me government!"
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So to all those foreign students with high education degrees, GET THE HELL OUT
Not entirely sure why they should get out instead of you.
I couldn't get a job as a programmer for 3 years despite beating 82% of all programmers
Maybe you are just an annoying person...you certainly sound like one!