More Fuel For Facebook Censorship Advocates In India 122
thodelu writes "Close on the heels of Friday's communal clashes in a town in India that were triggered by a Facebook post which contained morphed images apparently deriding a religious place of worship, there has been another incident. City police have removed images from another similar blog post citing 'cyber criminal' laws. There has been an ongoing effort in India to censor the web which would get more backing as a result of these events. Could we be seeing another Great Firewall of China?"
Religious tensions percolate under surface... (Score:2, Insightful)
... in India, Facebook blamed. Same results probably would have occurred if dead-tree distribution was used, although it's less likely such would make Slashdot.
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I'm confused. Was that suppose to be a positive review for Gamemaker?
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javascript obviously.
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Sounds like Zombo.com
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Why you little wusaaaaaaaaaay!
You don't even understand life itself. Anyone who says that Gamemaker is anything but magnificent is not and will never be a True Programmer. How dare you insult Komen Bryce so!
There are rumors about you circulating all over the grapevine. Dark rumors. Extremely dark, in fact. The rumors were started by... Komen Bryce himself! All of the elites have already read them.
What do they say, you ask? Horrible things. Revealing things. Things you'd kill to prevent others from knowing.
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Are you trying to get my cheeks to boil!? That will never happen due to you being such an obvious clone!
You spew preposterous statements in all possible directions. The mentally ill one is you. You are so mentally ill that you actually believe that you can deny an irrefutable truth: that Gamemaker reigns supreme above all else. Komen Bryce knows this, and so does anyone who understands life itself.
It's time for an ignoramus such as you to return to Gamemakerdom.
But then again, you're a mere clone trying to
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You will never get my cheeks to boil! Accept it. Move along, clone. An obvious clone such as you will never make my cheeks boil.
And that is that. You've been utterly destroyed.
I encourage everyone to disregard this clone's arguments: he's just trying to spread around misinformation. Return to Gamemakerdom! Gamemaker can do anything. Use Gamemaker. Use it for everything. Do it right now.
The solution is censorship? (Score:4, Interesting)
Really, why dont they look at the root cause, which is the communal tension and try to solve them. Oh wait, it is politicians that incite such communal hatred for political reason.
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Go ahead, smart guy, enlighten us - who do you solve the communal tension between a country with Hindu majority and a large Muslim minority?
Re:The solution is censorship? (Score:5, Insightful)
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What happens if one group disproportionately indulges in violence, and hence gets punished more?
What happens if that's not the case, but people start perceiving it as such?
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Who cares if there's disparate impact??? Punishment as a function of violence seems perfectly legitimate to me; punishing one group for a higher violence coefficient, rather than being a bug, is a goddamn FEATURE of the principle.
You missed the point of my argument. You can argue that it's right and just and all, but it won't matter to the punished group - they will just add you to the list of "friends of our enemies", and from there on any punishment, no matter how minor, will just keep aggravating them. So this will do nothing to solve communal tension - if anything, it will further polarize it.
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To miss means I did not see it. I did not miss it so much as reject its premise.
A child who throws a PB&J sandwich on the carpet, and doesn't realize why they're going to timeout, has a lesson to learn. However, while we recognize the need to educate the child, how does one duplicate results to adults that do the same exact thing? Their reaction of "friends of our enemies" is driven by emotion, and it's frustrating...because they surely would not accept that argument if posited by their enemies.
And o
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No, your problem is that you think in terms of individuals, where said individuals think in terms of groups, and consider themselves part of those groups. Forget me, I'm irrelevant here - but they're not. And if you manage to convince them that you're hostile to their group (and not just themselves), they will gang up against you, and you've done nothing to relieve the aforementioned "communal tension".
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If we're discussing the law, don't talk about "groups". The government doesn't and shouldn't give a shit about who belongs to what religion or what "group". It has to ONLY look at - "Did this person act violently?" If so, jail. If no, let them go and to hell with what "group" he or she belongs to.
Do you deny that this is how government works
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I'm not denying that's how the law works, and I'm not denying that government should be impartial in an ideal society, and that responsibility should rest solely with the individuals.
However, if you have ever lived in a society that is, in fact, divided along some arbitrary lines (which is true for many of them; it's just that many Westerners living in such are trained to ignore the divides, but oftentime it's a one-way street), you know that people who make the divide don't see it that way. So long as you
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In India unlike in other countries, people resort to violence because they KNOW they will not be punished. You say that impartial justice will never work. Has it ever been tried? Name one riot where EVERYONE who indulged in violence has ended up behind bars regardless of the political backing and affilia
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In my country (Russia), there are plenty of groups that resort to violence, and they are punished for it. E.g. there was a case a few years ago when a bunch of neo-Nazis went around kidnapping Asian immigrants and killing them on tape. And yes the country does has a law against such things - not just murders but also incitement of racial hatred and such - and in cases like these the law is enforced. But it doesn't help; the people you jail that way are seen as martyrs by those sharing their views.
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What happens if one group disproportionately indulges in violence, and hence gets punished more?
Ehm, justice?
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Cool. Now get back to the first post in the thread, which spoke about "solving communal tensions". Justice doesn't do anything for that if your actions aren't perceived as just, especially by those very people you punish.
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A man hits another man and goes to jail. EVERYONE will call that justice.
Tell that to the likes of Al Sharpton.
Those who don't need a civics lesson.
They don't care for your civics lessons. Not while you're "persecuting" them.
Like I said, real world is not your imaginary la-la-land. People are not rational, they are not all staunch individuals, and they love group politics and attach their identity to them. You can keep pretending it's not happening and screw it all up completely, or you can work with what you have to make things better. Your choice.
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You say people are not rational. I say people are cowards. They riot because they can get away with it.
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Put someone else in charge of them all?
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We tried that - but, instead of solving the problem, the buggers were using communal tension to divide and rule, while keeping the country downtrodden.
It's the religion, stupid (Score:2, Insightful)
What we need is less religion, not more censorship...
Re:It's the religion, stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps we just need to be more tolerant, no matter how opinionated the person next door is?
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It depends. If the person next door is opinionated in words only, sure. When that opinion also guides them to vote that way, and they vote for intolerance towards your own beliefs (or lack thereof) - starting on local level or working upwards - that becomes a bit of a problem. When they openly say that they support cutting your head off, that's a huge problem. At which point do you cease to be tolerant?
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Re:It's the religion, stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
There are no problems between Jews and Christians, Buddhists and Shintos, Hindus and Sikhs, Zoroastrians and Jains
Spoken like someone who hasn't been reading the news from India. Or did you just miss the stories about (Christian) nuns being attacked by Hindus trying to force them to convert? And, no doubt, you missed the people in Ireland being attacked for being the wrong flavour of Christian?
Religion is an intrinsically intolerant idea. Any religion that claims to be the sole arbiter of truth can not coexist with others that make the same claim.
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In the Balkans too.
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Same AC as the GP
I'm posting this from India. The incidents you refer to are one-off incidents caised by a perception that Christian missionaries were out to convert Hindus. I don't justify any violence against them, but it's hardly something that has an unlimited scope in time. Similarly, in Ireland, the problems were more political than religious - the IRA, terrorist as it was, did not have an agenda to wipe Protestants out of Ulster, but rather, wanted to end British rule there. Since there were no
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Except for all the cases where it's not.
Almost all religious conflicts are, fundamentally, about allocation of resources and post-colonialism tensions. Muslims tend to live in previously colonized lands far more than any other religious group. Religion just makes a better-sounding cause for violence and is better as a way to influence the poor. Sure, you're suffering now, but you'll lack for nothing in Paradise if you just do what I tell you. The Crusades were as much about control of the Silk Roads and
Re:It's the religion, stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
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I agree with most of your assertions. However every thorn has its rose. India is a complex country and despite all the differences people from most religions live peacefully with each other. At one point India had the highest muslim population in the world. It is home to six religions with major population and several religions with much smaller populations. Most of these people live in harmony and despite propaganda from several extremists elements, in general population is quite tolerant.
As for this artic
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Everything can be changed and it is not normal human nature to be violent. Humans are a social species evolutionarily produced to work together not just by thinking of it but by the normal flow of hormones and brain chemicals, humans are wired to be a social species. Of course genetic defects occur in the wiring, psychopaths and narcissists as examples, from them stems the bulk of human on human violence.
A lot of the violence in India is driven by poverty, working hard every day just so you can more slow
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Very true, the best way to reduce tensions in India will be to educate and employ the poor.
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Humans are a social species evolutionarily produced to work together
They're also programmed to compete. You can apply theory to this all day long. The bottom line is that blaming Facebook (which isn't lily-white by any measure) for this particular incident is wrong. Those people have been fighting since time imemmorial and will only quit I suspect when one side gets wiped out.
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Everything can be changed and it is not normal human nature to be violent. Humans are a social species evolutionarily produced to work together not just by thinking of it but by the normal flow of hormones and brain chemicals, humans are wired to be a social species. Of course genetic defects occur in the wiring, psychopaths and narcissists as examples, from them stems the bulk of human on human violence.
That's bullshit, as demonstrated by ample evidence - there are precious few human societies in existence or in history that had not, at some point, engaged in warfare with other societies.
Sure, humans are a social species, and they together - within their society. Not within the entire species, though - someone from another society is an untrustworthy foreigner at best, an enemy at worst - again, look at our history and our culture, all these cliches are spelled out there quite explicitly. Where the boundar
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there are precious few human societies in existence or in history that had not, at some point, engaged in warfare with other societies.
Yeah, and War has been part of humans for a very long time. My theory is that War is the real reason why humans evolved to run long distances. Not to stupidly spend hours chasing down lunch.
When you have two different species, one predator and one prey, it is not surprising when at least one species ends up with a high top speed. But when situation is members of the same species chasing each other, evolving to be faster starts to hit diminishing returns quite early.
In contrast, long distance running gives y
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There's plenty good evidence for why humans evolved as long-distance runners - and remember, that was long before they were smart enough to trap their prey. Things is, from all evidence we have, humans evolved in African savanna - think vast open areas with occasional vegetation, a perfect environment for setting an ambush and then chasing your prey once it gets close - how cheetahs etc do.
What made humans quite unique, though, is that they have little body hear, and sweat a lot (more than any other animal)
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That's bullshit. As demonstrated by ample evidence (the truth this time) that wars were driven by the leaders, leaders who psychopathically maintained power by the narcissistic minions torturing to death anybody that disagreed and refused to fight in those wars.
In regions where rule was by tribal elders, it tended to be all show and little violence, more arbitration and little or no war.
That key for war, for gross human violence, the slavery of the majority to the egoistic greed of the minority, was th
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That's bullshit, as demonstrated by ample evidence - there are precious few human societies in existence or in history that had not, at some point, engaged in warfare with other societies.
Sorry, but your claim about warlike human societies is controversial, as has been amply documented by Ryan and Jetha in "Sex at Dawn [amazon.com]." I don't have my copy at hand, but this ancient warlike humans meme is a myth they dissected and disposed of in the book. See Ch. 13, "The Never-Ending Battle over Prehistoric War." For one thing, the earth was sparsely populated in antiquity. Most human communities simply did not interact with humans from other communities. Hard to start a war without an enemy. A large part
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I dare say that a single book contradicting a mountain of pre-existing evidence does not make for a strong point.
That said, I can believe in the argument of "hard to make war when you don't interact with other groups". Sure, if your own group is rigidly defined, as the tribes tend to be, and you don't meet anyone else, then you can get away with lasting peace - conflicts within a group always having a strict ritualistic resolution. But, as soon as the group comes in contact with someone else who does not be
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And they're also wired to form up into tribes or packs. Like wolves. Throughout the ages, they've compe
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Apparently, you have succeeded in bypassing censorship, because in none of two links mentioned in ./ summary I have seen any indication on the religious identity of clashing groups.
Care to provide a link?
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"I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that."
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All one needs to do is look at the correlation to nearly any societal metric in religious societies vs. irreligious ones. Compare the plight of women for instance in Sweden and Saudi Arabia. The effect of religion on these metrics uniformly pushes them in the direction away from human well-being. People will argue that in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, and North Korea were atheistic societies, this is far from true as the leaders, as you say, become the defacto religion. This is not an irreligious society. K
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Square peg....round hole (Score:5, Insightful)
Several of those offended people decided to protest peacefully in front of a police station demanding his arrest.
Other people decided to protest violently by burning cars, smashing in window stores and just generally acting like idiots.
Instituting a nationwide internet censorship policy won't address the problem: impulsive, destructive people whose first course of action is violence.
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You can get arrested in India for offending someone? I'm glad it's not like that here (yet). I'd have a multitude of sequential life sentences.
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Of course you can get arrested for offending someone. If you incite someone to do something criminal, you're guilty as well.
At the day treatment school I used to work at, kids that ran their lip and incited someone into a fight got the same charges as the kid who threw the first punch.
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Offending (pspahn is an asshat) and inciting criminality (death to pspahn!) are not the same thing. Law (and logic) fail.
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Yes, you can. One has to admit that for India it really does make a lot of sense, because their society has many deep divides in it (one of which is Muslims vs others), which together make it a kind of a powder keg - it's not all that hard to incite violence between various sects, and it tends to flare up quite spectacularly from there on, with numerous victims.
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http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2010-03-26/news/27624391_1_muslims-in-government-jobs-muslim-castes-muslims-and-christians [indiatimes.com]
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http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Arizona-law-looks-to-censor-the-internet/g-MIO8eRL0-x4SzkNtLFBA.cspx
From the article:
The bill would make it a crime to offend, harass, terrify or even just annoy another person online. Skordas points out a few issues, like how will law enforcement find these so-called "online trolls?" and who is going to set the basis for what is considered "offensive?"
Boo Hoo (Score:1, Insightful)
Some people got trolled on the internet and responded with violence. They don't deserve any sympathy.
the real cause (Score:1)
Re:the real cause (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you serious?
Mao outlawed religion and while he managed to solve and get rid of a lot of his problems (people), I think he made the world's problems worse.
I am so sick of all of this, "just get rid of religion and everything will be peachy" crap.
The biggest killers the world has ever know killed for the nation, the party, their culture and for themselves, not for religion.
An also, how do you plan to get rid of religions, are you going to round up the faithful and send them to camps?
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Mao outlawed religion...
Mao also developed a philosophy of the moral superiority of the downtrodden ("Blessed are the meek..."?); established a cult of personality venerating him as more than a mere man; and published a handbook of his writings that outsold the Bible, and was treated in much the same manner (as a source of divine wisdom, infallibly correct).
It seems to be a flaw of the human psyche, that the most direct way to get rid of a religion is to invent another one to replace it.
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It would be so easy to Godwin the thread here... so I won't. Instead, I'll just say: that statement is the fundamental justification for most (every?) instance of genocide and many instances of war and evil throughout history. And, like all of them, you are completely wrong. The problem isn't x group of people or y ideology: the problem is human nature, or to quote from Equilibrium, "man's inhumanity towards man." And as the movie points out, there isn't one single property of humanity that causes that.
This
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It's blind adherence to ideology that's the problem - religion is just a subset of ideology. People have killed in the name of Allah or Jesus, yes, but they have also killed in the name of racial purity, or even equality and brotherhood.
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Honestly... (Score:3)
Nothing intensifies feelings of religious entitlement(that, when violated, swiftly turn to violence) like continual cringing deference and nothing dissipates those feelings like a continual bilateral exchange of ridicule.
It bloody well took long enough; but thanks to the scoffers, freethinkers, and scurrilous pamphleteers(Oh, and those guys were scurrilous. Trolls respect your elders....) most of the western world can't even distinguish between a Lutheran and a Methodist, much less excitedly tell you why burning one of the two at stake is an immediate necessity. Heck, unitarians the last major surviving heresy(Arianism, Socinianism, and Catharism didn't do quite so well) are now considered to be risibly bland liberals, rather than barely-christian heretics. Even the good, old, Catholic/Protestant bloodbath just isn't what it might be. You've still got a few belligerent, probably whiskey-soaked, Irish fighting; but outside of that knowledge and care about the theological and doctrinal differences is probably at an all-time low, particularly when you consider that the ability to inform yourself if interested is at an all time high.
It takes time; but success through mockery that gradually degenerates into sheer apathy is the way to go! Censorship is an attractive short-term plan; but it will have you travelling away from the slackutopia, where nobody gives enough of a fuck to go to the trouble of brutal communal violence.
Right... (Score:2)
Actually, what really is needed is self-humor, the capacity to look at yourself and see the joke. This isn't always as straight forward as it seems. Take the series, Yes Prime Minister. In it hacker does the list of how the nature of the average EU civil servant. The generosity of the dutch, the organization of the Italians, the humanity of the Germans, etc etc. But conspicuous by its absence is any reference to a British trait. The series make a lot of fun of politicians and civil servants but not of Brits
Wirewall (Score:2)
Could we be seeing another Great Firewall of China?
No, this is the beginning of the great Wirewall of India: http://www.photopumpkin.com/wp-content/uploads/electric_wire_3.jpg [photopumpkin.com]
ahh... the invisible hand of the market (Score:2)
its funny how similar are the smells of free market capitalism, and burning insulation.
Story tagged as censorship? (Score:4, Insightful)
But I bet you little fagets can't' mod this +5 insightful
NIGGERS
Can you?
Show me that you don't agree with what I say but will die for my right to say it. SHow me a +5 mod on this post. Hell, no need to die for it. Just spend some mod points.
We won't see it. We'll see it at -1 in short order. The United States us a bunch of spineless hypocrites.
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any particular reason why you posted as an "Anonymous Coward"?
Emphasis on the second word perhaps...
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You're confusing censorship with endorsement. I don't know why anybody should endorse hateful flamebait. Slashdot, however, does not censor your ability to spew such nonsense -- lots of sites would just delete it outright or not even allow it in the first place.
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One of the strange aspects of this case is something you obliquely pointed out: those news articles describe a "place of worship" and a "religious group", which enraged "youths" and offended the "other religious community". In the West (I don't know about India) this kind of bizarre omission of facts normally means that the incident was perpetrated by Muslims but the newspaper doesn't want people to think of Muslims as violent and is intentionally biasing their reporting. It's sometimes extended to other
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couple of big differences (Score:3)
this is a socio-government issue worldwide. (Score:1)
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Religious censorship already exists on Facebook (Score:5, Informative)
Try posting a picture of a woman breastfeeding. It is banned because it offends the American Puritans.
Why shouldn't Facebook also cater to other religions? Their goal is to increase profits, so it makes sense to make the maximum number of customers happy.
Notice how all 3 articles are light on details.... (Score:1)
1. The name of the politician who posted the picture on his FB Account?
2. What was offensive about the picture.
3. How did the riots start
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/node/109255 [deccanchronicle.com]
http://postnoon.com/2012/03/30/sangareddy-erupts-in-violence/40619 [postnoon.com]
Political conspiracy... (Score:1)
Most cry babies per population (Score:1)
All of India needs to grow up, this is getting out of control, they can't keep calling mom everytime someone looks at them funny or because someone makes a face. If you as a person don't want to use the internet don't use it, other wise leave the rest of the world alone, I'm sick of hearing about som
Can't be good for the outsourcing industry (Score:2)
If this results in Internet censorship or another great firewall, that can't be too good for the Indian outsourcing industry.
Would you let a team of outsourced programmers work on your code if they cannot access the websites they need to do their jobs? Or of they can't communicate with your on-site developers using the same sites that everybody else uses?
Or if they can't access the website that you're developing as a company?
Don't think so. They're just shooting themselves in the foot over there.
3 words (Score:1)
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