UK Plan Would Use CCTV To Stop Uninsured Drivers From Refueling 691
Mr_Blank writes "Cameras at UK petrol stations will automatically stop uninsured or untaxed vehicles from being filled with fuel, under new government plans. Downing Street officials hope the hi-tech system will crack down on the 1.4 million motorists who drive without insurance. Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras are already fitted in thousands of petrol station forecourts. Drivers can only fill their cars with fuel once the camera has captured and logged the vehicle's number plate. Currently the system is designed to deter motorists from driving off without paying for petrol. But under the new plans, the cameras will automatically cross-refererence with the DVLA's huge database."
ground effects lighting (Score:4, Interesting)
what are the laws in the UK on nearband IR ground effects lighting?
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Informative)
I assume you want to block the ANPR.
Drivers can only fill their cars with fuel once the camera has captured and logged the vehicle's number plate.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
In the UK a trailer must bear the same number as the vehicle towing it. So the vehicle has the front number and the trailer has the same number on the rear. End of story, if the trailer has a different number you are breaking the law and deserve the problems. I still do not like this system though as it will give me problems when I am driving on foreign plates. Will I have to tape fake plates on to get petrol? People talk about the problems but do they really think about how bad it will be for a false flagged person that cannot use their car?
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Informative)
So to have to have the above requirement is absolutely un-reasonable
And yet, it's been the law for a long time (not sure when, but before I was born) and no one seems to have a problem with it. Trailers that are going to be switched between multiple towing vehicles just have somewhere to attach a numberplate and the towing vehicles carry one to attach to whatever they're towing.
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Alberta, Newfoundland and Labrador, the Northwest Territories, Nova Scotia, Nunavut, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Saskatchewan, and the Yukon only have 1 plate - on the rear. Only British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, and Ontario require 2 plates.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment not limited to the Brits. The US government needs a good housecleaning as well.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
Add Canadians to the list.
We are currently going through our "Bush" phase.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, this is because by the "Obama" phase, it becomes clear just how much the "Bush" phase fucked things up. Note that simpering halfwits will attribute this to the "Obama" phase, but they're morons and normally can be safely ignored.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
The law is the law - you must have insurance in your EU or US state. Whether that law is enforced with human eyes or camera eyes really makes no difference (IMHO). I have to waste ~$300 a year to insure other drivers & their cars in case I hit them..... I don't see why anyone else thinks they shouldn't have to pay the bill too.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
People who drive uninsured don't do it just because they're all dicks (admittedly, many of them are), but because they're priced out of the freaking market by companies with a license to print money.
On an unrelated note, fuel prices are ~70% tax ffs. And these government shitheads honestly cannot work out why people break the law?
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like these people need to Go Compare! They're so Money Supermarket they don't even know it. Comparing the Market is Simples.
The UK has such an industry in Car insurance that Industry hints and tips have been automated into websites that are entirely their OWN industry. All with their own REALLY annoying adverts.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Interesting)
My premiums have actually been rising over the last 2 years despite having a totally clean license, never had an accident and never been convicted of a motoring offence. £800 went up to £850 the following year and that became £1,000 the year after when I moved house to an area with *lower* car crime rates.
The whole system is corrupt as can be. Insurance is mandatory (fair enough), but they charge so much that it is out of reach for people who genuinely *need* it, so they drive uninsured. Insurance companies then raise prices, blaming uninsured drivers, forcing yet more people who want to abide the law out of the market.
And what's even worse? People who would struggle with the exorbitant rates are shafted YET AGAIN because paying monthly is A LOT more expensive than paying annually.
And then what happens if you do have an accident? The insurance company goes out of its way to make sure it doesn't have to pay you a penny. The whole thing makes me feel physically and violently ill. (apologies for the rant!)
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
Imagine the day that Anonymous DDOS's the database used to authorize fuel dispensing.
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Imagine the day that Anonymous DDOS's the database used to authorize fuel dispensing.
You're correct. That's the day we realise the implementation is broken, but not for the reasons you think. You see, that's the day the petrol station sells out of portable fuel containers, and we simply carry the fuel from the pump to our cars.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all controlled by computers and they never have glitches, they never have bad data. No government employee would accidentally or on purpose screw with your data. The government would never use this to deny fuel to innocent (but "suspicious") people. No!
Nothing to worry about. Go back to sleep.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether that law is enforced with human eyes or camera eyes really makes no difference
Yes, actually it does. "enforcing the law" with Orwellian bullshit is not really enforcing the law as much as it is eroding your rights to privacy.
Require proof of insurance in order to renew registration every year. There. Fixed. And nobody has to spy on anyone at the gas station.
Wow (Score:5, Interesting)
We do that already UK (and you can't a certificate of roadworthiness, MOT, without insurance).
Guess what that means...
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Funny)
I have to waste ~$300 a year to insure other drivers & their cars in case I hit them
Ah, but there is a way to beat the system on this. Remember the money isn't "wasted" if you actually go out and hit the other cars...
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
Why so much hate?
The ANPR system is already widespread in the UK (although the headline seems to suggest this is new, it is not).
At gas stations it is generally used to catch bilking after the fact (ie, once the drive off has already happened), and is used elsewhere (eg, in police vehicles and on static cameras that watch the main motorway routes) to catch uninsured and untaxed drivers.
The overwhelming majority of fuel theft (in the form of drive offs) is committed by uninsured drivers, and adding a further obstacle to keep the dickheads off the road in the first place can only be a benefit.
At present the DVLA's database is not perfect so as it stands there would be a small but non-trivial number of false positives (too high for a system that prevents fuelling as a binary choice) but it is very easy to correct genuine mistakes. It might even be beneficial for those who are flagged incorrectly in the DB since they would have a chance to sort it out (reporting correct details to the DVLA and making sure your insurance is valid is *your* responsibility) before being pulled over by a police interceptor while you're on the motorway or something (thus wasting both your and the police's time sorting out the mistake).
Let's not paint this as a "the government can't tell me what to do! freedom! rah!" issue - there is no "right" to drive a car, and you have no innate "right" to buy fuel for it from a private business that specialises in selling such flammable liquids to the public. If you're driving around uninsured then, honestly, fuck you - get your uninsured pile of shit off the public road so you don't crash into someone and cause them all manner of headaches because you *are not insured*.
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I don't live in the UK ... I know that car is just not optional
Then you'd be wrong. I live in the UK, will be 30 in a couple of months, and have never owned a car, nor felt the need to own one.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you tried? We bought a car which had been cloned - after the clone had crashed into school gates and the driver locked up. We spent more than 6 months dealing with police and local authorities damanding payment for things that happened to the other (clone) car, before we owned the original. The people running this system cold not run a bath, they are so incompetent.I am in favour of compulsory insurance, but only when the same degree of regulation applies to the insurance companies as applies to the insured. (I am also in favour of public lynchings for the people running some of the insurance companies at present).
As for the clown that said "if you can afford a car, you can afford to insure it" you do realise that you can by a perfectly usable three year old car for about £2,500, but the (3rd party) insurance for someone under 25 is likely over £5,000 in London.
Can someone at /. explain why my pounds have mysteriously become Australian or something?
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a large problem - mainly because fuel is so expensive ($8-9 per gallon) and almost all stations are "fill, then pay" and almost none at all have pre-payment. Some have card readers on the pumps themselves, too, but usually only on a few pumps in a station.
The ANPR system being at gas stations is just a natural extension of where it's normally used (and it's already well established in fuel stations, and has been for some years) - in police cars and on main motorways. Cars have to visit fuel stations, so if you're uninsured or your car is stolen etc, it has a higher chance of being seen on the system. It's not solely about fuel theft.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
"almost all stations are "fill, then pay" and almost none at all have pre-payment."
That's idiotic and has no benefit. The majority of pumps in the US now have card readers and this even allows gas stations to dispense fuel when their parent store is closed.
There's more money to be made faster by having card readers at the pump since it frees "fuel only" customers from waiting for a clerk.
Re:Pre-Pay (Score:4, Insightful)
It is not the tech, it is the social customs. Fill then pay has been customary in the UK since filling attendants disappeared, probably forty years ago. People expect to fill then pay, and will probably avoid a station that demanded prepay. And, since most filling stations double as convenience shops, I bet that they will get many more sales from people who have done the primary task of filling up before they pay rather than people who are focussed on filling up rather than buying papers or chocolates.
Re:We need to be able to sue government workers (Score:4, Insightful)
The first person who loses his job because of a database or connectivity problem keeping him from gassing up on the way to work should be able to sue those who came up with this INDIVIDUALLY.
Not sue the government so the taxpayers make up for up for their mistakes. But these people who think they can tweak our lives any way they want need to learn there can be real consequences.
I still wish some government bureaucrat in the US could be in jail for manslaughter for the first kid who died from a mandated airbag before multi-stage, safer airbags were developed.
Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
Jesus, what happened to the idea of personal responsibility? So, what? The hypothetical guy who can't gas up on the way to work gets to sue the gas station if it's closed that day too?
It's the driver's responsibility to ensure that he has gas, has a roadworthy vehicle and to ensure that it is adequately taxed and insured.
Those "real consequences" like suing someone because you didn't have enough gas to drive to work and an admin issue at the gas station, where you went to fill up your almost totally empty tank at the last minute (ie, on your way to work) certainly are serious.
"Yes, your honour, I didn't have enough gas to get to work, and I thought I'd fill up on the way at the last minute because I believe that unless every single thing involved in my journey is 100% perfect I am entitled to sue".
mmm.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm actually struggling to see why the first few posts on Slashdot are suggestions that this is somehow a bad thing. If ever there was a decent use for ANPR, this is it. My insurance has rocketed in recent years and my commute gets increasingly busy over time. Getting illegal drivers off the road? Yes please.
Getting many of the little uninsured scrotes off the road with this sort of thing can only be a good thing IMO. Less chance of me being out of pocket for some arsehole that never passed his driving test and/or never bothered to pay for insurance and/or crashed into me because he lost control of his car because it wasn't road worthy and he didn't bother to get an MOT? Please, sign me up.
Really, if there's concern about feature creep and it being used to tell where I go for petrol each week then I already have bigger worries - knowing which petrol station I go to each week is a lot smaller concern for me than the fact the local supermarkets knowing how often I shop at them, and what I buy down to the most personal level in comparison. Tracking my petrol purchases would be small fry relative to all the other data that's being tracked about me in every day life and at least this would give me the tangible benefit of lower insurance premiums.
I don't see how defeating this at the ballot box would be in any way "taking your government back", unless you're assuming that everyone here is one of those afformentioned uninsured scrotes who would benefit from a government that doesn't want to go after drivers breaking the law at the expense of those who do not? This is one of those rare instances of my government working for me, not against me, and knee jerk responses simply because of the mere mention of CCTV in the topic are retarded. Not all CCTV usage is inherently bad - it's not like petrol station forecourts are even public spaces.
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Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah and maybe then, when your car is stopped, they'll come out and shoot you in the head then burn your corpse out back and pretend you were never there. They may then go and rape and murder your family, and kill and burn them too. I mean, that's exactly the sort of thing that would happen in Iran or Syria, so you're obviously an idiot if you think it couldn't happen in the West.
This is called a slippery slope fallacy. Whether your argument has any validity, or mine has any validity really depends on how much of a paranoid kook you are, so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not convinced things are that bad in our country, even if they may be in yours wherever that may be. If things ever do get as bad as you suggest I expect there'll be a lot bigger issues before then, such as whether you can even own a car in the first place.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
This is an excellent solution.
And you'll only disagree with me until the point one of the douches driving whilst uninsured hits your car or runs you over.
Unless of course you are one of those douches. Driving a car is a privilege not a right.
The problem is that once you accept more control over your life the line blurs and then disappears. It doesn't take that much thought to see this morphing well beyond the good intentions you buy into now.
You accept having government approve your fuel purchase based on having insurance. Should government approve your fuel purchase based on the time of day? No fuel for you at 11:00 -- you should be at work.
Anything the government does for "safety" or "security" is absolutely for that purpose -- for theirs, not yours.
It cannot be said better than this:
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Re:Way to RTFA... (Score:5, Funny)
Slashdot won't let you post until it verifies you haven't RTFA.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Interesting)
As long as it is human readable...what's the problem.
I'm wanting to experiment with putting a bunch of hi powered infrared LEDs all around my license plate, and see if that will blind out the stupid cameras...while leaving it nicely readable to the human eye.
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:4, Insightful)
You ask then question and then answer it in the following paragraph.
In any case, do you really think the system won't simply deny you fuel if it cannot read your number plate?
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That's the sound of someone who has no idea how much insurance costs some people. For a new driver with a £100 car, they could well be paying £1500-2000 per year for third party insurance. When insurance is that much, it hardly surprises me that we have an epidemic of people driving around without insurance.
That sounds like someone who thinks driving is a right, not a privilege
I think that if you aren't able to drive then your life is very restricted. This means you may not be able to get a job or generally enjoy life much. In some areas, there really is no alternative to driving if you want to go a reasonable distance (nonexistent public transport coupled with roads that are too narrow and winding to safely cycle on).
Roads are not free and it's not your god given right to drive on them.
No, roads are not free. They are paid for by the tax payer. The taxes collected from driv
Re:ground effects lighting (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, no, its required to be unobscured to all reading methods - many people have tried what you are suggesting already and ended up with fines or imprisonment, it's not a new thing at all as people have been suggesting such things to avoid speed cameras for decades in the UK.
I saw this story posted a few hours ago with no comments and wondered how long it would take for someone to try and make the distinction between human readable and readable - again, sorry but no such distinction exists in UK law.
Riiiight (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Riiiight (Score:4, Insightful)
Inconvenience.
Re:Riiiight (Score:5, Interesting)
Makes you think, you could make good money as a fuel reseller with a pickup truck modified to act as a stealth fuel truck. Charge a delivery fee on top of the gas price (or get creative if you're an evil bastard...poor people are easy to screw for extra cash, ask telecoms) and you're set.
I'd say put a turtle top with blacked-out windows on the pickup, hiding a massive fuel tank (use a Serious Business pickup with plenty of hauling power like a Hilux or Dodge 3500). Set up en electric fuel pump that fills the carrying tank from the vehicle's stock tank, and a pump coming from the carrier tank to fill vehicles with. To take on massive amounts of fuel discreetly, transfer most fuel from stock tank to carrier tank, fill up, drive to next gas station and repeat. Maybe run the transfer pump for a set amount of time during fill-up to take an extra 10gal of gas or something, and say you "got the extended tank option" if anybody asks.
Re:Riiiight (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just what we need, uninsured drivers driving around in trucks laden with gasoline in home-welded containers.
What could possibly go wrong...?
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Have you priced a couple of used steel 55 gallon drums, some gas hose and a little creative backyard welding against annual auto insurance lately? The tank idea is much cheaper.
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No, I haven't, have you? I pay about $500 a year for full coverage; it would be half that for liability-only insurance. Are you saying all that custom welding and effort is less than a couple years' worth of insurance? Make sure to factor in the inconvenience ("effort").
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$500 one-time to save $500-$1k per car per year (if you're lucky)? One giant petrol tank please!
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or can lawnmower and chainsaw operators no longer buy gas?
Taxation of lawn mowers that aren't electric, pushed as an emission control measure.
Re:Riiiight (Score:4, Insightful)
An Arkansas credit card [urbandictionary.com]?
I'm sure you folks in the UK have a locale suitable to this definition.
Re:Riiiight (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is it that geeks always need something to be flawless before they find it worth consideration?
If the worst this system produces is people using gas cans, it's a victory. There will be people who will find the inconvenience enough incentive to get their insurance which is exactly the goal. Since the technology is largely already there, the database check shouldn't be a significant additional cost. (Who knows with government mandates though.)
If there is a reason to oppose this it would be the fears of Big Brother and the ability of government to know almost exactly where you are every moment you are in country. Still, with due respect to our British friends, it seems like that ship sailed a while ago. If they're (going to be) doing it, it won't require this program.
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It needs to be taken into consideration, because if you put a rule in place there will be a couple of people trying to bypass it and the consequences of the "bypass" need to be carefully analyzed. Such as black markets, and/or reckless people carrying flammable products around.
Re:Riiiight (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, not good to underestimate the unintended consequences. Here in TX, they boosted the penalty of drunk driving especially when hitting someone. Now, when people hit someone drunk, they run if the car is still mobile, and then quickly go to a bar. Why? Because the penalty for hit & run is so much less. By going to a bar, a blood alcohol test can't be used to determine if you were drunk when you hit them. So now you are just charged with the lessor offence of hit & run.
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There will be people who will find the inconvenience enough incentive to get their insurance which is exactly the goal.
Of course, this neatly side-steps the issue of mandating drivers give money to private organizations that have huge profit margins every quarter, can deny a claim on a whim and have an inpenetrable bureauacracy within which appeals against said whims can prevail. One might argue it is unethical to pay drivers to pay arbitrary amounts of money based on age, sex, style of house they live in, occupation, etc., -- none of which are related to their driving ability or condition of vehicle, which are the only two
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Worst case, they could die.
There is basically no chance that someone will die in the middle of London while carrying enough money to buy gas simply because they could not buy gas.
Flawed. (Score:4, Interesting)
The flaws in your argument.
We have free health advice 'phone lines provided by our NHS and manned by qualified nurses.
Most people live in walking distance of their surgery. And pavements so, unlike many US cities, you can get there by walking.
We have free emergency ambulances, provided by the NHS.
We have people who drive people to where they want to go, we call them taxis.
We have bus services that will likely get you to a free clinic or an A&E if you don't think you should call an ambulance.
You really didn't think through your silly strawman at all did you?
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What's to stop someone from filling a jerry can with gas and then fuelling their car, or can lawnmower and chainsaw operators no longer buy gas?
The only people effected by this at all are people walking to the gas station to go buy gas, everyone else will drive there. The real question that should be asked is why the hell should private businesses be compelled to install these. I can't believe the UK doesn't have any protections, what's next forcing gas stations to administer glucose tests to customers if they want to buy junk food.
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Buying junk food is legal. Driving without insurance isn't.
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Buying junk food is legal. Driving without insurance isn't.
Is selling gas to someone without insurance illegal?
Doesn't sound workable to me (Score:5, Insightful)
This would work just fine if the database was correct, which it simply isn't. Delays in getting information updated would mean you having a fully licenses, taxes, MOTed, and insured car that you couldn't fill up with petrol. So there'd need to be a way of overriding it, which puts a whole lot of pressure on the vendor.
Nice in theory, but I don't see it working. That doesn't mean I don't see it happening.
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We already give foreigners a cushty ride on driving penalties, I don't imagine this will be any different.
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Ah, but I can get a tax disc and then cancel my insurance. Or I can not pay so it's invalidated. Or I can cancel it but then reapply for insurance from another company and one company being faster to report it to the DVLA than the other means I'm insured but the DVLA think I'm not. Trust me, their records aren't 100% accurate. In the past I was under no obligation to inform the DVLA when the car was off the road (SORN) so they couldn't be sure whether it was valid me having the car uninsured. Fixing th
Gee, why not just send the police then (Score:4, Insightful)
if your going to be a police state then by all means do it right.
I guess they will need a black market for gasoline as well. Do they have seat belt laws? Baby seat laws? Why stop at not letting gas up because of lack of insurance. There are all so many wonderfully invasive things they can do.
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Because that's expensive. Seriously. If they could have police everywhere, they'd not have uninsured cars on the road.
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Because they'd all be driving police cars?
Re:Gee, why not just send the police then (Score:5, Informative)
There already is a black market for gasoline and diesel. You can buy it tax-free from all sorts of places if you know where to look, and it's a huge, huge source of revenue loss for the government because fuel is so expensive here (you yanks whine and moan about $4 per gallon, I would be ecstatic for prices that absurdly cheap). The most common offenders are cab drivers running their cars on red diesel bought from black market fuel stations. (red diesel is so called because it is for farm and construction vehicle use and not for use on the road and thus sold tax free. It is dyed red to make it easily identifiable.)
And yes, we do have seat belt laws, and baby/car seat laws.
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The real black market will be for license tags recently stolen from vehicles with paid up insurance.
Re:Gee, why not just send the police then (Score:5, Insightful)
if your going to be a police state then by all means do it right.
What do you mean by "police state"? If some f***ing idiot thinks he or she can drive around with an uninsured car, which hasn't been tested for roadworthiness (because you can't get an MOT without insurance), leaving everyone else to pay for the damage to cause, then most people in Britain would want their cars to be taken away and destroyed.
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Frankly though, any time your premiums are calculated with a secret proprietary formula you're getting fucked hard without so much as a by-your-leave.
The best bit is where the insurance companies complain about the rising cost of claims, while simultaneously selling the details of anyone who has a no-fault accident to ambulance-chasing lawyers and overpriced replacement car outfits.
Will the clerks in bulletproof glass / cages (Score:2)
Will the clerks in bulletproof glass / cages as I can see some taking it out on them or forcing them to hit the over ride button.
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Very few drivers here are armed. Handguns are just not common here by any stretch of the imagination, despite what the sensationalist media would have you believe.
Even fewer are going to shoot at a petrol station attendant in the presence of blanket forecourt and in-building CCTV.
Most petrol stations here already have window service only at late hours, also.
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Quite right old chap, I shouldn't have been driving uninsured, don't know what I was thinking. Here, take my car, I don't deserve the privilege if I can't use it properly, I've no doubt you'll handle it better than I have. Well, I've only 3 hours before I need to be to work and 60 km to go, so I'd best be off. Cheerio!
Correction (Score:5, Insightful)
This is less a new idea as the
Re:Correction (Score:4, Informative)
be used to calculate average speed over a section of road (to enforce speed limits)
As someone who has been up and down the motorways of the country at quite a lot faster than would activate your regular speed camera I can state that, unless they are marked as used for speed enforcement, they aren't used for speed enforcement. Yes, the kit is there, and it might be possible, but it isn't done.
Hmmm... Should probably check that "Post Anonymously" box.
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The colour of the camera also matters, I believe the colour code goes: blue traffic master (congestion reporting), green, law enforcement CCTV and yellow speed cameras
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Re:Correction (Score:5, Insightful)
The UK already uses CCTV cameras on a massive scale to catch uninsured cars. Our motorways have cameras over every lane which track the numberplate and this information can both be used to calculate average speed over a section of road (to enforce speed limits) and also to check for insured, banned drivers, or stolen vehicles. This is less a new idea as the /. summary implies and more just an expansion of an existing project.
This is a very new idea, forcing a gas station to install and use this system, that is very different from cameras in public places. Having license plate scanning cameras in public areas is not an issue, as it is in public and there is no expectation of privacy. The big issue is not the public's right to privacy but the gas station owner's right to sell gas to whom ever he chooses. This is not a slippery slope, this is the beginning of the government forcing private business sell to whom ever the government sees fit to sell to. The outrage shouldn't be over privacy issues of the customers, it should be over the intrusion of the government on these businesses.
And when the database is wrong? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wonderful, when the inevitable errors in the database occur you'll be stranded at some random gas station. Nothing in that article about how you could prove their database was incorrect or out of date.
At least if an officer ran your plate and stopped you you could provide proof of insurance, showing their database entry was wrong.
Next step (Score:2)
If this becomes operational, I wouldn't be surprised if unpaid fines were added to the list soon.
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put the insurance in the gas! (Score:2)
how about jacking up the price of gas to buy insurance as you go? this would have the added side effect of making people think twice about driving 4 blocks to run an errand and buying giant gas guzzler vehicles. yeah, yeah, some issues about lawn mowers and such, but we could work out a system for that I'd think.
Re:put the insurance in the gas! (Score:4, Informative)
This is the UK, where we already drive high efficiency vehicles (my own is a minivan that does over 45 mpg [US adjusted figure] and is only middle of the road for efficiency) and pay $8-9 per gallon for fuel. We already think twice about driving short distances for errands.
Adding the insurance to fuel would disproportionately hurt people and industries that drive for a living (truckers, haulage firms, salesmen, on-call service engineers etc).
The UK is not a market where "gas guzzlers" are at all common. More than 50% of vehicles sold are diesels, for that very reason (higher efficiency, cheaper to run).
Unintended consequences (Score:2)
The police aren't a movie villain (Score:3, Insightful)
They don't try to give the lawbreakers a fighting chance.
It seems like most of the complaints here are because people think this will work. It feels wrong that you actually cannot get away with breaking the law.
Think about it: Do you think it's a bad law to prohibit uninsured motorists? Do you think the police are likely to abuse this? (It uses existing cameras. If the police wanted to abuse it they can abuse the existing cameras already.) No? Then exactly what is your objection, other than that it doesn't seem fair that there's no way to get around it?
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Don't be stupid. Of course this will be abused. They abuse the existing cameras already, not to mention wasting a farcical amount of money on them.
This will give the state more power than the old internal passports of the Soviet Union. Anyone the state disapproves of could be easily made unable to travel. If you think that the British state is to be trusted with such powers, then you need to pay more attention.
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My objection has nothing to do with the police enforcing the law. I despise people who drive without insurance. But the effect of this law will be to create a black market for fuel. This creates its own new set of problems.
The UK slips further towards tyranny (Score:4, Insightful)
What is wrong with the United Kingdom ? When did they go so far off the rails ?
(Yes, I know that you could ask the same question about the US, but this is not an article about the US and, if anything, things seem to be deteriorating faster there.)
In other news: fuel theft from car tanks soars (Score:3)
UK is Dysfunction Junction (Score:3, Insightful)
So if the camera fails to see your license plate you get no gas? Clever. I'm sure that another car or truck will never obstruct the camera's view, that snow will never obscure the plate, that fog will never blur the plate letters, that the plate will always be adequately illuminated, that the cameras will never break down, that the license database will always be up-to-date and on-line. No flies in THAT ointment, no sir.
All this fal-de-ral just to make sure that a few people pay their vehicle tax? Why not simply require everyone to pay their tax annually when they register their vehicle? Put a sticker on the windshield showing that the tax was paid, LIKE THEY DO EVERYWHERE ELSE.
Or if you must monitor everyone's tax status minute-by-minute, have everyone carry a tax-paid UPC fob that is scannable by a credit card swiper (or an attendant) when you pay for your gas? Would that cost, oh perhaps, a BILLION pounds less than buying and wiring up multiple spy cameras for every service station in the UK?
Who comes up with ideas this overcomplex, ineffective, and brain damaged? Newt Gingrich's british cousin?
Can't put politics and bureaucracy aside (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not, politics and bureaucracy aside, make the "mandatory" insurance something you pay with your vehicle registration?
Because large companies and trade associations in the private sector who have successfully captured the regulators [wikipedia.org] find it unprofitable to put "politics and bureaucracy aside". For another, there'd still be tons of "politics and bureaucracy" in figuring out the premium that applies to each driver-vehicle pair.
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, in the UK you do need proof of insurance (and MOT) to get your car tax disk.
But guess what, the people who don't bother with insurance don't usually worry about the tax disk either. Nor a driving license, quite frequently.
There's a simple solution: Use the ANPR for regular spot checks. Make an example of people who are uninsured - sell their car, fine them heavily, lock up repeat offenders or anyone driving while banned.
The 90% of people who are insured will benefit from less traffic, and fewer
Re: (Score:3)
But guess what, the people who don't bother with insurance don't usually worry about the tax disk either. Nor a driving license, quite frequently.
In states (or provinces or other jurisdictions) that require 50 to 120 hours of verifiable practice on a learner's permit before obtaining a license, how does one obtain a license anyway? If your answer is "practice driving with your parents", how does that work if your parents are nondrivers or if you don't learn to drive until after you've moved out of your parents' basement?
Re: (Score:2)
National driving insurance, paid for by your normal taxes, that covers everyone and everything.
Or putting uninsured drivers in jail.
Both are expensive, but I have no idea why the UK doesn't do the latter anywhere near as often as it should (also, see: driving bans that you can go to court for driving in, and then be punished by being banned from driving - even if your under the minimum age needed to have a driving license!).
Re: (Score:2)
P.S. You think London doesn't have drivers from all over the world on our roads either?
Hint: The UK is 30 miles from France joined by a lovely underground train tunnel that is DESIGNED to carry personal cars between the two.
Re:gas can (Score:5, Insightful)
And what about vehicles with foreign plates?
What can possibly go wrong?
Re:gas can (Score:4, Insightful)
Think of it as a blacklist, any vehicle that has been registered in UK and has not paid tax/insurance will be blacklisted. Foreign vehicles will not be affected.
Re: (Score:3)
And what about vehicles with foreign plates?
Oh noes! With your incisive insight you have identified the flaw in the plan that no-one else thought of! Foreign plates, doh! Who would have thunk it?!
This proposal is not about recognition of the registration number, it is about recognition of the number plate of a UK registered vehicle that does not have current insurance. If the plate is not recognised then it will be ignored. Or maybe flagged for approval by the petrol station.
Remember, the station owners do not wish to supply to anyone with bad r
Re:gas can (Score:5, Informative)
The UK is an island to the rest of the world, how are you getting your foreign car there? you know they drive on the opposite side as most of the rest of the world too right?
I have seen Hawaii license plates in Texas. How do you think those cars got here? Freight ships carry more than just toys and bananas. Also, you are forgetting about the Chunnel [wikipedia.org]
Re:gas can (Score:4, Funny)
It's from England to France, dummy. It just has exits in Texas and Hawaii.
Re:gas can (Score:4, Funny)
I know if I was heading to England and saw an exit for Hawaii, I'd make some quick travel changes.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Two points.
You don't get watched everywhere you go.
Ireland isn't in the UK.
Re: (Score:3)
Guilty until proven innocent? No, it's the other way around; indeed, the US 'innocent until proven guilty' *comes* from UK common law. You stupid fucktard.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean alongside the one that already exists?
The black market for fuel (especially diesel) is an enormous and profitable industry.