Online Learning Becomes Court-Ordered Community Service 160
An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo Finance reports that convicted criminal offenders can serve their court-ordered community service hours online by taking educational courses through Community Service Help. According to the article, there is a high correlation between criminal activity and lack of education. Who knew? 'About 40 percent of all U.S. prison inmates never finished high school, and nearly 44 percent of jail inmates did not complete high school. More current data shows that hasn't changed. In Washington, D.C., for instance, 44 percent of Department of Corrections inmates are not high school graduates. Less than 2 percent had 16 years or more of schooling.'"
Great idea! (Score:3, Funny)
More criminals online. Exactly what we needed.
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Nah, online criminals come fro Nigeria, not Kenya.
Oh hang on, you said voters, not politicians. As you were, gentlemen.
Once again (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
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Educating them will just mean smarter criminals. Not everyone can work in banking.
But the banks are hiring again, and we're running out of educated sociopaths, so they'll have to make do with educated convicts.
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True ... some will need to go into Law or Politics.
Re:Once again (Score:5, Informative)
You raise, a good point. The evidence suggests that to some extent criminals lack of education is caused by other variables that lead to both to criminality and make completing school more difficult. In particular, criminals have on average lower intelligence, http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201006/why-criminals-are-less-intelligent-non-criminals [psychologytoday.com] poor impulse control,http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=101809 [psychiatryonline.org] and extremely high self-esteem ,http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/papers/baumeistersmartboden1996%5B1%5D.pdf [emotionalcompetency.com], all of which are associated with doing poorly in school.
However, there's also evidence that some amount of criminal behavior is due to lower education reducing work opportunities. The most successful programs at reducing recidivism are those which educate the convicts. https://www.stcloudstate.edu/continuingstudies/distance/documents/CollegeEducationandRecidivismEducatingCriminalsisMeritorious1997.pdf [stcloudstate.edu] although the exact causes of this are unclear http://www.bop.gov/news/research_projects/published_reports/recidivism/orepredprg.pdf [bop.gov]. So, while there is a correlation v. causation issue, it does look like education genuinely helps.
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Maybe the real reason is that educated criminals just commit legal crimes. I've recently read a study which said that being better off is associated with lack of empathy, lack of a sense of right and wrong, and lack of self reflection.
So I have my doubts about the project. What if (in contrast to g'parent post) they do become bankers? Is that really better? They can do much more harm there than as ordinary criminals, and because it's legal we can't lock 'm up any more.
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There may be factors that make you more likely to be a criminal, but there's no "criminal gene." These are still human beings, and generally people just want life not to suck. They're not thinking, "oh, whatever I do MUST be immoral, so when I have an education, I will just be a a BETTER criminal." The thing about having an education is that suddenly a lot of legal and upstanding ways to make money open up, and they tend to be more attractive than crime and the risk of prison.
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I've recently read a study which said that being better off is associated with lack of empathy, lack of a sense of right and wrong, and lack of self reflection.
Stop making conclusions off /. headlines. If you would have actually read that study or read the comments on that story then you would know that the methodology was bunk and the study shouldn't be used to make conclusions about anything.
Also, your argument that it may be better for them to be petty criminals than bankers is equally weak. Let's rewind 150 years and use that argument: "It's probably better that they remain slaves, after all, they can't hurt anyone chained up like that."
If you're going to comm
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Best way to rob a bank is to own one. Next best is to borrow so much that it's the bank that has a problem when you can't make the payments.
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Hey, thanks for that great writeup. I seem to never have mod points when I'd want to use them.
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I don't believe lack of education makes one more likely to commit crime, only more likely to get caught. Smart and educated criminals will get away with their crime far more often than those who are stupid and lack education.
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I'm not sure what can be done about IQ, but it is entirely possible that where education is enforced, they might learn to exert better impulse control and also that they're mot as smart as they think they are.
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I don't see why this was moderated to "funny"...
As some one else said, there are a lot of reasons why people drop out of high school. Many of the dropouts I know dropped out because they were already into criminal behavior, and school "cramped their style". Did dropping out cause their criminal activity, as these studies suggest? No, quite the opposite!
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I wonder if it would help if our (at least in the US) public school system wasn't such a piece of garbage...
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You've got a UID in the lower 30% and you haven't realized it's all the fault of the education system for not recognizing that the, ummmm, difficult and underachieving students are all special snowflakes and unrecognized geniuses?
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> Educating them will just mean smarter criminals.
Not true! They could become lawyers!
Oh...
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Yes, some will. But there's always the chance and hope that at least SOME will get smarter.
Re:Once again (Score:5, Interesting)
But very few can work in unskilled labor, those jobs are practically going away not to mention when the going gets tough you're in competition with all the skilled labor too. I remember there was an article here in Norway about a position as warehouse assistant, they got 3-400 applicants and the job market here isn't even tough. If it had been I'm guessing 1000+ applicants because it's the kind of job absolutely everyone can do. But there's a very limited number of McJobs and even most of those want people that have worked retail before plus domain experience like working with food. You don't need qualifications to stand on the street corner and sell drugs or break windows and steal shit. Of course some would continue to be criminals, but I think a lot of them did because they failed at everything else.
Of course this is just highly anecdotal, but at least on my school I'd say there was a group of losers that compensated by being badass. Drinking, smoking, talking tough and following through if necessary, breaking the rules - if they couldn't be successful at school they'd make their own kind of success. They were attractive to the kind of girls that like "bad boys" too, that was important in that age. Particularly since those that were neither badass nor did well weren't treated very nice. But once that becomes the defining order, it escalates. You're not drinking beers to be badass, you're drinking liquor. Or you're doing drugs. You're not breaking school rules, you're shoplifting. And as everyone else's opinion of you deteriorates - other school mates, parents etc. your standing in the gang only becomes more important.
I'm not talking about street gangs in New York here, I'm talking about a fairly quiet suburb in low crime Norway. I'm thinking this is a pattern that exists more or less all over the world, of course it doesn't explain all crime but I think it explains a lot of petty crime, the kind people say came from "hanging with a bad crowd". And yes, I'd say failing at school is a leading cause as to why people start doing that. I'm not so sure it'll help though, most of these people were failing for a reason and they're not going to be the brightest even if they get remedial education. But maybe it can give them some sense of achievement on the other scale, they might not win any Nobel prizes but they're making a honest living. It's at least a chance to getting out of a bad circle if they're willing to take it.
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You don't need qualifications to stand on the street corner and sell drugs or break windows and steal shit. Of course some would continue to be criminals, but I think a lot of them did because they failed at everything else.
Which is why in rich countries it might not be such a bad idea to give everyone a basic income ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income [wikipedia.org] ), and have compulsory high-quality preschool education so that at least more grow up to be useful people. Unless you execute them, you're going to pay for these "dropouts" one way or another. If there are fewer and fewer jobs for their ability what do we expect them to do? Die? No matter how much you train a dog it's not going to write automation programs for Google Dat
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basic income as a general term would cover the system in use in norway, yet people flock to a basic job opportunity(instead of studying to be a nurse for example, though I'd rather be a janitor than a nurse but that's just me).
it doesn't help with the need to have something to do, to have some outside purpose for your daily routine.
Judge Dredd while posing as a comic book about violent criminals and an equally violent sheriff is actually about this, you still have to do something with your time and even a m
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though I'd rather be a janitor than a nurse but that's just me
I think this quote says a lot about society, in many ways. I'd rather be a janitor than a nurse, too. Even if nurses were paid much more than they are and janitors paid slightly less.
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Agreed. It's only going to get worse, the amount of education required will only increase with time as more and more advanced work is automated.
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From what I know a tenure-track position at a decent university can average around 200 applicants per spot. I have difficulties imagining that more candidates apply for a warehouse assistant post.
I couldn't find the source but here's one [aftenposten.no] (in Norwegian of course) where they got 119 applicants from friday afternoon to wednesday morning, no report on what the total ended up as. Maybe it was the final figure for this one or a similar one or my memory is off, but yes they do get very many applicants. Did you get the first 100+ applications in half a week? At 3% unemployment and maybe 1 million people in Oslo+surrounding areas that's 30,000 unemployed. If we say this is a position practically everyone can
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Oh my god! This means that 60% of prison inmates did finish high school, and 56% of jail inmates finished high school too! Surely this means that we should ban all high schools!
Uhh... (Score:2, Interesting)
Does that mean educated people are less criminal or just better in hiding their crimes ?
And in the latter case, doe we really want to educate criminals ?
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That wouldn't explain the high percentage of the US population in jail.
Bert
Who remembers an item by Michael Moore (or an assistant of his, if I recall correctly), where a guy couldn't become a cop because there is an intelligence test for cops and if you're too smart you can't be hired. The last sentence of the cops' spokesman before the door is closed is priceless: We're there to protect crime. The reporter is flabbergasted: Did he really say that?
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That wouldn't explain the high percentage of the US population in jail.
The "war on drugs," or more accurately, "prosecuting people for victimless crimes," is probably a pretty good explanation...
Re:Uhh... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of criminals commit crimes because they don't believe that they have any options. You put them in prison and they come out and still can't get a job (especially now that they have a record), so what do they do? Commit more crimes. Give them some useful skills, and they see that they do have a choice.
A small minority are just naturally and incurably sociopathic. Most of these work in management...
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You put them in prison and they come out and still can't get a job (especially now that they have a record), so what do they do? Commit more crimes. Give them some useful skills, and they see that they do have a choice.
This presumes that having skills gives them a choice. Unfortunately, their record means getting a job is still basically impossible. Perhaps the best education we could give them is to teach them how to start and run successful small businesses, because people don't check the records of those they do business with. Of course, the ex-con had better not need a bank loan. And an education in business administration may just make an ex-con a more effective/efficient drug dealer.
I don't know that there's a
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A lot of criminals commit crimes because they don't believe that they have any options. You put them in prison and they come out and still can't get a job (especially now that they have a record), so what do they do? Commit more crimes. Give them some useful skills, and they see that they do have a choice.
A small minority are just naturally and incurably sociopathic. Most of these work in management...
It is not a small minority. 1 in 24 people are sociopaths and in prison populations that ratio rises to nearly half [wikipedia.org] .
Most are in jail not because they lack education, but because it's where they belong.
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Sounds quite logical to me, what inconsistencies do you see in his theory?
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I think he's looking for actual evidence and not just someone saying that they think it's true.
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[citation needed]
Sounds quite logical to me, what inconsistencies do you see in his theory?
"citation needed" doesn't mean that the whole thing is bullshit, just that somebody would like to see something other than speculation on the topic.
The idea that heavier objects fall faster is reasonable and logical too, it's just not correct.
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So he needs a citation of someone speculating the same thing he's speculating? Or perhaps he should back it up with statistics pulled from some bogus study some Sociology grad student composed. A logical statement doesn't require a citation.
Personally, when discussing social issues I think statistics and research get in the way. A person's anecdotal experiences are probably more informative than Sociological research, which is impossible to make objective. At least with anecdotes people take it with a grain
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Since this program is for doing court ordered community service, we're not likely talking about hardened criminals committing heinous crimes (yet). Perhaps they're close enough that this can move them to the right side of the line at least.
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No it doesn't.
Yes it does. The fact that a stupid mistranslation of a latin phrase became generalized by the public doesn't mean that the generalization is any wronger than the original idiotic mistranslation. Either the phrase has no valid uses, or it has two.
Furthermore, the standard claim that "raises the question" serves just as well is clearly false. An interesting scientific result may raise a question, but you will never see anyone, no matter how informally they're speaking, describe it as "begging a question".
Teaching the curve not the median (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Teaching the curve not the median (Score:5, Interesting)
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This used to be common in the UK, before the governments of the '70s and '80s decided that judging people based on their ability was elitist and therefore bad.
Well, my school did that back in the 80s, my daughter's school does that now in 2012, and while I could be wrong I'm pretty sure my teacher friends (2 at this sort of level) both teach in schools that do that (one in London, the other in Leeds). I know, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I think streaming of pupils in schools is still pretty common. (There's plenty to dislike about education in the UK, but from my perspective that isn't one of the things)
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Privatizing prisons is insane, it creates an incentive for throwing more people in jail..
Re:Teaching the curve not the median (Score:5, Informative)
Privatizing prisons is insane, it creates an incentive for throwing more people in jail..
Those incentives exist with or without private prisons. Plenty of people profit from government run prisons. For instance, here in California, the prison guard unions spend huge amounts of money promoting tougher sentencing. This includes donations to politicians that vote for tougher laws, and financing the "Three Strikes" voter initiative. We have prisoners serving 25 years for stealing a pair of socks.
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How do people profit from government run prisons? Are prisoners used as slave labor? I can certainly see how that would create an incentive for jailing more people as well..
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Um, he gave an example. Anyone employed by a government-run prison profits by it. And yes, prisoners are used as slave labour - or "community service" as we call it.
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On the most basic level, prisons employ guards. Prison guards are in the prison guard union. The union wants its people paid more and to have more jobs, so they lobby for things that result in more prisons or more guards per prison, like longer terms or harsher sentencing. This union is the most powerful union in California, followed by the teacher's union.
I am not making this up.
Also, even if you don't use prisoners as laborers, you still have gov't funds going into building and maintaining the facilities,
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Well, it doesn't really create any jobs that weren't there when it was state run... but indirectly, it does. By throwing more people into jail, you not only reduce the number of people who are competing for jobs, but you also have to hire a few goons to keep them from getting away.
The system works!
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In the U.S., inflation-adjusted spending on education has more than tripled in the last 50 years, while outcomes have remained flat.
One-room schoolhouses have a better track record of educational achievement than our modern system.
We could probably reduce spending on education and reduce the need and expense of prisons, but those who make the decisions don't want that. The education system is doing what it was intended to do: dumb down the population. And it's doing it well.
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No, that would be racist.
Beatings and starvation ill be reserved for white prisoners on the grounds that someone who looked like them 200 years ago was disrespectful to a brown person who was chucking a spear at him.
Re:Teaching the curve not the median (Score:5, Informative)
Are we sure prison is more expensive? I see it as slave labour.
Slaves are expensive. It costs something like $40k/year to incarcerate someone. If they're working the equivalent of a minimum wage job at the same time, then it's not really a good investment.
Re:Teaching the curve not the median (Score:4, Interesting)
This is for small crimes only (Score:1)
So it makes sense to do this. The jails are overcrowded already and it forces people to get educated, which should help them gets jobs. I would image many of people are doing this because a) they are bored, b) need money so they steal or c stupid or d) a combination of a, b, and c.
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You think that's a good thing? Think again:
1. These people have a prior conviction.
2. Any job these people could possibly apply for will be competed over by far more applicants than there are jobs.
3. To have ANY chance to be chosen, these people would have to offer their workforce at a far lower price than anyone else.
In a nutshell, if it accomplishes anything, it's more pressure on "honest" people and, in the end, lower wages for everyone.
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It's hinted at in Shawshank Redemption, but I'm pretty sure based on other things I've seen/read that there's an element of reality behind it.
Even workfare programs can have the same effect; force dolites to sweep the streets and eventually the street sweepers end up on the dole.
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Work doesn't magically multiply. If you give a job to someone, someone else is going to be short of a job. If you create a low wage alternative, companies will follow and refuse to pay more than that low wage alternative asks.
For reference, see outsourcing.
I don't think they became criminals... (Score:2, Insightful)
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But then that means less money for these private prisons.
Repeated (Score:4, Funny)
33% of statistics are simply repeated. Of cited statistics 67% are not repeated. More recently 33% of statistics were repeated.
Comment removed (Score:3)
Correlation != Causation (Score:1, Insightful)
It could be that there's another underlying cause that tends to make one act criminally and avoid education...
HS education=compliance=no jail (Score:2, Insightful)
The sort of people sufficiently compliant to complete high school are the sort of people sufficiently compliant to think that we must do what we're told.
I have excellent school and university grades (mathematics, not some wishy social science). It was a waste of fucking time. I've stopped respecting the law. I shouldn't have bothered in the first place. Maybe one day I'll end up in jail. Who cares? Most people were quicker than me and learnt this lesson earlier.
And before you wonder, no, most people aren't
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Doesn't that mean that 60%... (Score:1)
Did graduate? We should stop educating people because it leads to a life of crime. 3 out of 5 people in jail did graduate compared to 2 out of 5.. Clearly graduation is correlated with a life of crime. Plus who wants smart criminals?
The obvious solution (Score:2)
Wrong correlation (Score:2)
There is a correlation between a lack of education and a conviction.
If you're educated enough you can easily avoid jail time.
copyright concerns (Score:1)
Reeducation (Score:2)
It's all about spin. "I sentence you to 30 days of reeducation." How does that sound?
Funding? (Score:1)
No wonder (Score:1)
The educated criminals go into politics.
There is a correlation between being caught... (Score:2)
...at criminal activity and lack of education.
American schools compared to French schools (Score:2)
Alrighty since we are discussing schooling here and just recently been exchanging emails with a friend who grew up in France, came to US many years ago and recently retired. Below are some of her thoughts:
Computer sciences was my major. It was not taught when I grew up in France, and my minor a French teaching degree so that I could teach French after retirement. My education was completed in France where I obtained a master's degree in Math/English. I completed college here to show that I also had an Ame
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Yeah, but is that her boyfriend? He could beat me up with one hand.
He's wearing a Bob Marley Festival tee-shirt. Obviously a non-violent drug offender busted for lighting up to get closer to God.
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Check out the girl on the main page... Sign me up!
And compare her with the unshaved, tattooed man. I guess they're trying to promote the (educated) bad boy gets the girl stereotype.
Re:Go to jail (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting that if you actually look at the site (Community Service Help), for a criminal to get involved in this "non-profit" organization, they need a credit card number and a Pay Pal account.
The whole Community Service Help Website reads like a sleazy advertisement. Note the picture of the smiling, big breasted girl showing her cleavage right on the front page of this "charity".
This whole business appears to be a Slash-vertisement. Couldn't Slashdot reference an academic journal instead of some sleaveball Website that seeks to profit off of vulnerable people?
References:
http://www.communityservicehelp.com/ [communityservicehelp.com]
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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> This whole business appears to be a Slash-vertisement.
Yes, because a substantial part of Slashdot's readership gets into trouble and needs to do community service on a regular basis. I can totally identify with the "bad boy" on that front page.
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What?
You lost me at "big breasted."
Where do I sign up?
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Bob's bitch tits are a poor substitute indeed.
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Yes, they have a higher chance to get convicted and get longer sentences when committing the same crimes as other races. Just like men get longer sentences compared to women. Turns out getting judged by a jury of your so-called peers sucks in a world of rampant racism and sexism.
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"You went from more than half the households being married to something like 9% now, it gave the lowest of the low an excuse to pop out kids they promptly abandoned or let run wild, and it gave rise to the "thug life!" "culture" which glorifies being the scummiest criminal you can be. Hell look at it, it glorifies the abuse of black women and violence and dope slinging."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_1_59/ai_110361377/ [findarticles.com] - the article says 48% (down from 70%). So you're simply lying.
And about
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Yeah, I think it's better to turn all white people into slaves, right? After all, as you're telling us white people can work just fine. And if they're slaves and forced to work at gunpoint they'll work even harder!
I'd say it's a win-win solution!
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There's a major flaw in your logic.
The fact that black people live this lifestyle has nothing to do with the fact that they're black and everything to do with the fact that they're poor. You're not describing black people, you're describing poor people. I don't know a single black person who feels the type of us vs. them mentality you describe, and judging by your post I think it's safe to say that I'm much more familiar with black Americans and those who suffer from poverty in general. Blacks just tend to
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No. At least, one is not legally required to obtain a high school diploma. I believe most states permit people to drop out of high school at the age of 16, though there may be parental permission required to so so, etc. And, of course, most jobs require a minimum of a high school diploma. But as far as the law is concerned, it's not mandatory.
Re:WTF (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, kids that get in a lot of legal trouble tend not to be able to finish a high school diploma. Juvenile detention centers do teach classes, but the credits end up being so fragmented as kids jump between detention and regular school that it's difficult for them to actually fulfill the requirements -- and that assumes they don't just fail their classes anyway.
I have personal experience with this. My daughter is very bright and capable, but suffers from a severe emotional disorder which leads her to make a lot of dumb decisions. Even though she typically does very well in school, her time in treatment centers, trouble with the law, expulsions from schools, etc., mean that she's chronically behind on credits. For example, she completed much of the first semester of Calculus this year (as a junior), but then got in trouble and ended up getting no math credit at all. She's now in a residential treatment center and taking dum-dum math because it's all they offer, but won't get any credit for it because she's already done it.
In her case, because she's so bright, the solution will likely be to take the GED as soon as the state will let her, and she'll pass it handily. Or else I'll pay for summer school classes, or something similar. She's smart enough, and has involved parents, so she has a chance to be able to make it. Kids with similar issues but without similar advantages are really screwed. Of course, if she can't learn to manage her mental illness -- which is very, very hard to do -- she's going to be screwed, too. We try to help every way we can, but we can't live her life for her, and as she becomes an adult the consequences of bad decisions are going to become even more severe.
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So many horrible ac-trolls... Feel for you
Thanks. It doesn't bother me much, though. One side effect of dealing regularly with the mentally ill is that you develop a very thick skin. I've had far more vicious things screamed at me by my daughter, and I care about her, so some random troll doesn't faze me.
I do really wonder what motivates a person to spend their time spewing anonymous hate. This particular troll has been stalking me for months now, so he's really invested a great deal of time and effort into it. He rarely resorts to canned re
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You spent years masturbating while taking the life of innocent animals
I generally just ignore statements like this, because they typically indicate a completely irrational attitude of a sort which no rational response can enlighten, but since the rest of your post is almost rational, I'll make an exception this time.
Your comment indicates a complete misunderstanding of hunting and hunters -- at least all the hunters I know. There is no joy in killing, and there's certainly no sexual component to it. The joys of hunting are many, and the feeling of success at taking your q
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Who makes their food,
Mexicans
makes their clothes,
Chinese children
builds the houses they live in,
Hondurans
provide the hospitals for their bastard offspring, etc.?
Jews.
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I believe jails are smaller/lower security facilities for short sentences (less than 2 years) and pre-trial custody, whereas prisons are larger, more secure, and for longer term.
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A jail is a local level holding facility, usually used by a city or county. If you're arrested for being drunk and disorderly in public and you're thrown in the drunk tank, you're in jail. If you commit some type of misdemeanor that lands you a 90-day sentence, you'll serve that in jail. A jail is commonly a part of a police station.
A prison is a state level holding facility. If you commit a felony like steal a car, for example, you'll go to jail until you go to trial. Once you're found guilty and sentenced