Hawaiian Bill Would Force ISPs to Track Users' Web Histories For 2 Years 200
New submitter mazinger writes "In Hawaii, a bill has been proposed to retain data on Internet users and the sites they visit. Apparently, there is also no requirement for a warrant to obtain the information from service providers. The bill affects not only ISPs but also coffee shops and anyone providing Internet access."
Why stop there? (Score:5, Funny)
Why not just force every citizen to post a continuous blog of their every activity at every moment of every day for all time?
That way, we could all rest assured that our safety is being protected.
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Why not just force every citizen to post a continuous blog of their every activity at every moment of every day for all time?
That way, we could all rest assured that our safety is being protected.
Just to optimise space, we should limit such posts to 140 characters... Why 140? Dunno, sounds nice, I guess...
Re:Why stop there? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is for safety. Just not yours.
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Your post is in jest and modded funny. Unfortunately it is right on for what the "authorities" would like, except the blog is posted for you by your phone, computer, ISP, neighbor, bank, employer, and cameras covering public places. It is for safety. Just not yours.
Yeah, I didn't think it was funny either.
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"Unfortunately it is right on for what the "authorities" would like, except the blog is posted for you by your phone, computer, ISP, neighbor, bank, employer, and cameras covering public places."
Knowing this, a bright person could use all of these.....as cover.
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What the hell, if they really want to know why don't they just go to your FaceBook wall? Everything they need to know is there already.
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What's that? You don't want to have all your online activity tracked and dissected by the public? Funny that.
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Sometimes I think this is purely out of laziness that they want to infringe upon the freedoms of citizens. If they didn't mind actually going out and doing the job of collecting enough information for just cause to get a warrant, we probably wouldn't have all these attempts at making laws that infringe upon citizens' rights.
I wish your thought was correct and laziness was to blame. Unfortunately it is far from the truth. In many cases there is not enough evidence to get a warrant. By instilling constant, invasive monitoring as the norm, the data provided by the monitoring will become the basis for the warrant.
Re:Why stop there? (Score:5, Insightful)
They do already. It's called Facebook. It's just not a requirement. Yet.
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No need ...
This is what facebook and google are for
Just legislate a back.door into each and go right to step 4
4. Profit (invade privacy of citizens at will)
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This is what facebook and google are for ...
Just legislate a back.door into each and go right to step 4
You don't need a backdoor in them when the front door is loosy juicy by design. Neither of those entities give a flying !@#$ about privacy or anonimity.
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We went to war with the German Police State in 1941. now we are become them.
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Re:Why stop there? (Score:5, Funny)
China called, they want their security apparatus back.
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China called, they want their security apparatus back.
You're not really falling for that, are you? Up to now, they've just been testing it in North Korea and Tibet. Now, they're rolling it out to Production (aka, everywhere).
This century is really beginning to piss me off.
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>> a continuous blog of their every activity at every moment
Okay data is coming out.
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It wont be long until we get that.
With RFID & NFC electronics in so many devices & ID cards, how long until governments or even advertisers start putting scanners in public buildings, banks, schools, malls or even street corners. You dont need to be able to decode the info to create a unique fingerprint to identify people's movements.
Walmart could figure out how long each person spends down which aisle.
Next time theres a crime you can see who was in the area at the time (useful for identiffying susp
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Why would we need a Mandatory Facebook Usage Bill when we can get most folks to do it voluntarily?
And those who don't - well, we KNOW they're anti-social rebels, right?
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Why not just force every citizen to post a continuous blog of their every activity at every moment of every day..
Isn't that Twitter and Facebook are for?
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Why not just force every citizen to post a continuous blog of their every activity at every moment of every day for all time?
That would be either homicidally boring, or Twitter.com.
How the !@#$ do politicians get this stupid?!? This has to be a plot! Goldfinger? Dr. No?!?
Goldmember!
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Isn't that what twitter is for?
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Yes, but what if the camera malfunctions? Then you need a camera to watch that camera. But what if that one malfunctions? Then you need another camera to watch that one. And so on.
Waste of money, waste of time.
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Lace and his Friends (Score:2)
http://www.amazon.com/Lacey-His-Friends-David-Drake/dp/0671655930 [amazon.com]
An excellent collection of short stories..
if memory serves their society found 3 overlapping cameras for every visible point were the number required to ensure their totalitarian society would continue with status quo.
Re:camera on head time? (Score:5, Funny)
Camera on head time,grafted to skulls?
No... That could film the police. Can't have that.
Re:camera on head time? (Score:5, Funny)
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When your country (and the world) is going to shit all around you, the only thing you can really do is laugh.
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No it aint funny but it's insightful. Maybe someone should watch the watchers. It's amazing you don't see more Rodney King stuff these days. Whoops I can get in trouble for posting this.
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No, the court decision may have been 9-0, but there was a division in the court. The conservative portion (5 justices) said that attaching something to the vehicle involved trespassing on private property.
They left the door wide open as to whether they can track you in other ways. Like your phone location records that currently the government does not need warrants to get. Or automated cameras with license plate reading technology. Or automated toll plazas on the highway.
Total information awareness
I'll predict how the logs will look (Score:5, Funny)
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yeah, one problem with that....
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=308290
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/09/lulzsec-hacker-exposed-service-he-thought-would-hide-him/42895/
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/threads/363171-HideMyAss.com-Doesn-t-Hide-Logs-From-the-FBI
http://www.hackingne.ws/hidemyass-helped-fbi-to-arrest-a-lulzsec-member.html/
They have NO Qualms about handing over all that "personal" information you were trying to protect with no warrant to any government agency asking
illegal regulation of interstate commerce? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:illegal regulation of interstate commerce? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would argue that the Interstate Commerce clause doesn't give the federal government the authority to monitor private communications either. Statists are entitled to their opinions, I suppose.
Re:illegal regulation of interstate commerce? (Score:5, Interesting)
Specifically, the Fourth Amendment eliminates the authority of the federal government to monitor private communications (as interpreted by SCOTUS, phone calls, emails, etc are considered part of the 'papers and effects'), and the Fourteenth Amendment means the same rule also applies to the states.
Not that that's really going to stop this sort of thing from being implemented, since the only opposition will come from those without political power.
check me.. (Score:4, Insightful)
hold the sarcasm please.
the contents of a phone call is protected solidly with laws re; privacy.. so too is the content of an envelope.
but the fact that I called someone? and what number I called? and how long I was on the line? not so protected.
They don't want the content of every packet.. they want to tie the endpoint IP's and timestamps... to a person....
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"They don't want the content of every packet.. they want to tie the endpoint IP's and timestamps... to a person...."
In the case of web traffic, if they have the endpoints, they have the contents.
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Perhaps you should read the post I replied to for context.
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Please don't encourage them any more...
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>>>"only the feds can pass this type of law."
Not true. States have the power to regulate any commerce within their borders. If Hawaii wants to tell the Hawaiian branch of Comcast Cable to turn-over its records, they can do so. Their authority does not extend outside of that island state, but does include everything inside it.
Aside - Take unpasteurized milk for example.
It's perfectly legal to sell in the state of Pennsylvania, but not across the border (otherwise the U.S. will arrest the farmer).
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Which is the way our government was meant to run. The Bill of Rights is often hailed as a document which guarantees our freedoms as Americans. However the last paragraph, the 10th amendment, has been routinely ignored for about the past 100 years:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
Aloha! Vote against to keep healthcare costs down! (Score:2, Funny)
Hawaiians, vote this bill down!
You see, I'm an internet Troll. I have no life. I do this because I'd drink ....well, I take that back. I drink and Troll.
If you vote for this and it spreads to other states, I'd have no choice but to hang out in front of Apple Stores with a sandwich board that says nasty things about Apple users.
Then, after I call a few men "Apple Fags",. they'd kick my ass and send me to the hospital. Now since I'm unemployed, I have no health insurance which means the hospitial will have t
Another example of clueless legislators... (Score:5, Insightful)
Once again we see a proposed law that will only impact law abiding people (and be a major invasion of their privacy to boot).
If I was intent on covering my tracks I could take so many routes:
- Download Tor and use it to privatize all my browsing
- Search for open SOCKS proxies, etc. to exploit
- Rent a VPS out of state and set up a proxy on it
and any one of hundreds of other approaches to take...
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And then, when it is noticed that your online activities diverge significantly from the norm, they may have cause to investigate you as a potential terrorist because, you know, why else but for nefarious reasons would you want to hide your activities from the good people who are trying to keep us all safe?
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it'll just look like you're a normal _working_ slob using vpn to connect to work.
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How are the going to investigate *me* if they don't know who I am?
What if thousands of people do the same thing?
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Yep - my thought exactly - easily circumventable through a proxy server, and throw in wi-fi hotspots as well, since any data collected has almost no traceability after the user leaves the hotspot, and is especially untraceable if the user clears any DHCP cache. Even worse, coffee shops would likely be considered an ISP and would need to save their logs, even though many of them don't even have logging turned on (because they just run it through a hardware router to the real ISP). This is not as easy as it s
Let HI internet access go dark (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let HI internet access go dark (Score:5, Insightful)
If the ISPs had any balls, they'd tell the HI government that, if they pass this law, the ISPs would simply cease to provide internet service to HI residents. And if they do pass the bill, make good on the promise. It's either that or be forced by the HI government to buy terabytes of disk space and thousands of dollars of computers to track everything the HI internet user does. Politicians should not make laws about technology that they don't understand.
You mean the balls to go out of business?
OTOH they could send the data to the government on a weekly basis and let them sink or swim.
Where would you like that sent sir?
No one uses the cliche "1984" anymore, we're living it.
Re:Let HI internet access go dark (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean the balls to go out of business?
Sad but yes. Would you help the empire build the Death Star?
Re:Let HI internet access go dark (Score:5, Funny)
My friend here's trying to convince me that any independent contractors who were working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when it was destroyed by the Rebels. But I know a contractor listens to his heart when taking on a job :-)
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Sad but yes. Would you help the empire build the Death Star?
Are you kidding me? Hell yes!
If you wouldn't jump at the chance to work on something that awesome you should just hand in your geek card right now.
Re:Let HI internet access go dark (Score:5, Interesting)
If the ISPs had any balls, they'd tell the HI government that, if they pass this law, the ISPs would simply cease to provide internet service to HI residents. And if they do pass the bill, make good on the promise. It's either that or be forced by the HI government to buy terabytes of disk space and thousands of dollars of computers to track everything the HI internet user does. Politicians should not make laws about technology that they don't understand.
You mean the balls to go out of business?
1) You can also go out of business by being mandated costs you cannot afford.
2) Most companies providing Internet in the US now are multi-state, so dropping one would not end their corporate existence.
But, if this applies to hotel Internet as well, I could see the hotels dropping it, and if all the tourists suddenly go WTF together...
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ISPs would not go out of business (Score:2)
The HI government would have to back down, I am very certain of that.
Re: "Politicians should not make laws ... (Score:2, Insightful)
about technology that they don't understand."
In point of fact Politicians should not make laws about any issue (technological or otherwise) that they don't understand!!
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Isn't forcing a business to take expenses such as having to buy an EMC VNX SAN a tax?
This is pretty much taxation without representation, unless the HI government is willing to spend the money to hand each ISP the proper disk space to do this.
The more governments and ISPs press this, the more people will go to VPS services. Offshore VPS services in countries that have real privacy laws (Sweden/Switzerland), or in nations hostile to the US.
Then, the serious computer crime cases will be impossible to investi
Unfunded mandates (Score:2)
Something like this happened in Germany (Score:3)
Now McDonald's is using SMS to log identities. This means now only the big guys can afford offer free Internet access.
Just another way to crush the little guy.
Pollute the data (Score:4, Insightful)
I heard about it in another thread that Pirate Bay adds fake IP addresses to the real ones.
In the long run more sophisticated tools for this purpose will emerge, and Anon can graduate from the LOIC to something that will have a permanent impact.
We won SOPA, and a major website is taken down the next day.
It is obvious that preventing laws like this is not going to stop data retention in the long run.
The path forward is to destroy the credibility of the data they collect.
I've got an idea, (Score:3)
Re:I've got an idea, (Score:4, Insightful)
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This is the appropiate response.
Just as a true victory over SOPA would have been a push back to pass net neutrality / net freedom legislation. Instead, we just postponed SOPA till maybe after the 2012 elections, when a number of congressfolk will be job seeking or secure in their seats and looking for a bit o' cash^H^H^H^Hwar chest financing.
Umm, what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Has the state been chosen as a soft target in which to pass model legislation by some sinister entertainment industry and/or surveillance state interest group? Is some two-bit local senator trying to weather a 'caught-with-2.5-prostitutes-in-a-blood-soaked-bed' scandal? Are radical Hawaiian nativists waging a guerrilla war to re-establish the monarchy? WTF?
Re:Umm, what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Involuntary beta testing in a limited market.
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According to TFA, a the former web designer for one of the Representatives in the state's House created a web page attacking her claiming she owes him money.
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See also: G.O. 1984.
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Too much time on their hands (Score:2)
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Make it illegal for lobbyists to buy the lawmakers, no matter by what means they try. Only then is there a chance that the lawmakers return to serving the people and the nation, rather than the control freaks and corporations.
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Make it illegal for lobbyists to buy the lawmakers
Lobbyists have a First Amendment right to buy lawmakers. How are you going to get three-fourths of the states to sign on to change that?
Wow (Score:2)
His companion computer crime bill appears to make stealing your neighbors WiFi a felony, that is, if it isn't already.
"unauthorized computer access in the 3rd degree from a misdemeanor to a class C felony." Or if you get online somehow without being "documented" so maybe VPN connections or SSH?
Another "democrat" has stuck another bill in there with the same wording most likely in case one doesn't make it through the other will, seeing a lot fo this the same bill different names, sneaky.
This seems thuggish a
Noise (Score:2)
Just fill their stupid database with so much junk information that the data is worthless. Run a program that mimicks regular internet use to sites you usually go to, and a whole bunch of others.
"Mr. Doe, can you explain your reasons for visiting these illicit sites on these 137 different occasions?"
"Yeah. I run a program on my computer that randomly loads websites. Wanna see? Thanks for wasting my time and tax dollars. Can I go now?"
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I doubt that the law sees any difference to you running a program that loads random websites (your noise application), and you running a program that loads websites (a web browser). They are both software under your control on your computer.
Try this one at court and see how well it goes;
"Mr Doe, can you explain your reasons for speeding through this 20 mph residential street near your home on these 137 occasions?"
"Yeah, I fitted a modification to my car that randomly hits the gas pedal. Wanna see? Can I
Here we go (Score:2)
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This man is a fighter and he won't go down without a fight if he wants this.
Say again, who will pay for this monitoring? (Score:2)
Citizens will bear the cost of this monitoring (because the providers will pass it on to them), but only the media will benefit.
Why would we want to pass a law that gives the media the power to monitor us? Even worse, why would we want to pay for the indignity?
That Hawaiian legislator is not looking out for the people who voted for him. He's looking out for the people who paid for him.
Birth Certificates to be included? (Score:2)
Long form, please, available to anybody who asks.
This could eliminate a lot of problems!
Not possible (Score:5, Informative)
Who is the Hawaian Bill anyway (Score:2)
Probably one of those Ultra Conservative Pot smokers that does not want to ask people not in his own circle what the good web sites to visit are. Another closet human being.
How much is the fine? (Score:3)
if (fine < cost_to_comply)
ignore_law();
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Hey, Hawaiian politicians (Score:2)
Hawaii resident, here (Score:4, Interesting)
Hopefully to be modded into the light of day...
There are two sides to Hawaii: Honolulu/Oahu (and parts of Maui) are developed places with real infrastructure, but the rest of the state is generally a depressed backwater with pockets of third-world conditions.
The Big Island is home to many huge subdivisions which have no consumer broadband: Telcom won't deploy DSL, and the cable company won't bother because it's not profitable -- this even includes parts of Hilo, which is the most-developed town on the east side of the island. Dial-up internet is very common here, but there are even places with no POTS service.
Increasing the costs of something we don't already have is the surest way to make sure these services are never deployed, which makes me really wonder about the underlying agenda.
One word: NO (Score:2)
If she has an issue with this individual, the courts provide redress for her to sue him on the basis of slander (if it's not true); if it is true, then the person who's putting up the information has a rightful claim to make it in a public venue (like the internet
Testimony I sent in to the state House (Score:4, Interesting)
I am writing in opposition to HB 2288, which if enacted will impose onerous reporting requirements on anyone providing Internet access in the State of Hawaii and expose the citizens of Hawaii to the possible exposure of their online habits.
This Bill requires any "company that provides access to the Internet" (sec. 1, line 6-7) to "retain customer records" including "each subscriber's information and internet destination history information" for "no less than two years" (sec. 1, lines 14-17). The "internet destination history information" is to include the Internet protocol address, domain name, or host name of every destination contacted by a subscriber.
It is no business of the State (or my Internet provider, for that matter) what sites I visit on the Internet. Most Internet providers currently have their subscribers' information, but very few record the destination of the subscribers' connections. This Bill would impose a requirement on all Internet providers to record and retain this information, which would require a large investment in equipment and network configuration expertise to achieve.
It is also unclear to whom this Bill would apply. Clearly the intent is for it to apply to Internet Service Providers, but given the language of "company that provides access to the Internet", it could be held to apply to coffe shops, hotels, Internet cafes, or even the individual who fails to secure a wireless home Internet router. For even moderately busy providers, this would be a huge amount of data which must be recorded and stored.
More importantly, there is no provision in this Bill to safeguard the information collected. Data on an individual's Internet traffic habits could be extremely sensitive - for example, an employer might be able to discover that an employee participates in workplace safety discussions from his/her home, information that the individual might not want the employer to know about. Under this Bill, there is no prohibition against Internet providers selling this sensitive customer information to anyone,
nor are there any provisions requiring judicial review before the State (police, prosecutors, etc.) acquire these records.
As the manager of a corporate Internet-connected network, would this Bill require me to monitor all of my organization's users' Internet traffic? That would be a huge invasion of their privacy. If not, then the Bill is useless, since all traffic from my organization appears (to my upstream provider) to come from a single Internet address. How would this Bill accomplish anything in this case?
In summary, this is a poorly thought out, fundamentally flawed Bill that would do nothing to solve any current or even perceived problem, would impose onerous data retention and reporting requirements on all providers of Internet connectivity, and would expose the citizens of Hawaii to an unprecedented invasion of their privacy. I urge you to reject this Bill.
I'm just going to use it to my advantage. (Score:2)
me: *dials ISP* ...
isp: Hello, blah blah blah, may I have your account number?
me: Yeah, blah blah blah
isp: How can we help you today Mr. Blah?
me: Well, I've got a bit of an emergency here, I need you to look through my web usage history and tell me what site I was on yesterday at 11:47 PM.
isp: I'm sorry Mr. Blah, I don't...
me: See, I'm not at my computer right now, I'm on the bus surfing from my phone and I'm trying to remember who the fine ass b*tch was that I was jerking it to last night.
isp:
me: I know it
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