Australian Deported From Bahrain Over Facebook Posts 188
An anonymous reader writes "Australian English instructor Tony Mitchell recently moved to Bahrain where he was offered a job at the state-run Polytechnic University. He described himself as a witness of the various horrifying events in the struggling country (see The Atlantic's four-part series). Mitchell was eventually fired, evicted, and forced to flee because of posts he made on Facebook."
When in Rome (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably best not to write bad things about the Emperor.
Seriously, when you're in somebody elses country you need to be really mindful about what you say or do that's likely to upset the government.
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
on the other hand, some would say he had balls for standing up to the oppressors. he stands up for what he thinks is right, and you say "well, it's your own fault" when he gets deported? perhaps if more people stood up, not less, we wouldn't have these problems, regardless of having crossed some arbitrary boundary like a nation-state border. we're all humans, irrespective of where we are. show some backbone and stop being so subservient to power
Re: (Score:2)
If one feels that strongly about it, one probably shouldn't be taking a job there. Pissing off the government in somebody elses country then accepting deportation as punishment is hardly something that's going to do much for the quality of life of the people living there.
Re:When in Rome (Score:5, Interesting)
He does.
It is. They are not mutually exclusive.
I support people standing up for whatever they believe in, and I certainly support this guy's cause. At the same time, I have no idea where this notion that one should be free from consequences if they are doing what they feel is right has come from. It is not a thing to be proud of, but it is a reality. Black people were arrested and beaten constantly standing up for their rights in the civil rights area. I'm sure none of them wanted to be, and but I also don't remember them going on about how they were in disbelief that they were arrested for breaking the law. They expected it. That was their way of standing up and drawing attention to how bad things were.
So yes, he is welcome to stand up to oppressors, but he has to also be willing to accept the consequences of doing so. That's pretty much the crux of the whole "taking a stand" thing; if you're only doing it with the expectation there will never be consequences, you're not exactly going out on a limb are you? Frankly he should be quite happy with the results. Things aren't too bad for him and he has made the news nationally and internationally. That's damn close to a best case scenario for people hoping to effect change.
Re: (Score:2)
He didn't stand up to oppressors, he posted video on facebook that got a bunch of protesters arrested and some of his colleges at the University killed (presumably, they've been disappeared)
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, "colleagues." I had to go bum a quarter to buy that one and bring it back.
Re: (Score:3)
It's probably best not to write bad things about the Emperor.
And if you do, you had better be the mad Jester in the court. Otherwise don't get too attached to that whole "breathing" thing.
Re: (Score:2)
It's probably best not to write bad things about the Emperor.
Seriously, when you're in somebody elses country you need to be really mindful about what you say or do that's likely to upset the government.
Or the people that run the government.
Look it's not a problem. They are our allies. (Score:2)
The navy needs them, so they can do what they like.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Some of us walk on eggshells, some of us throw eggs. If the worst that could happen is deportation, I could egg a tyrant.
Re: (Score:2)
He's not in the USA.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm inclined to think that the GP is trying some very subtle troll
I don't think so. American law generally is pretty clear that all of the rights in the constitution apply equally to foreigners and there has been a bunch of case law saying that you can't take away free speech from people just because they aren't citizens. This is a thing which quite a few Americans are rightly proud of. Recently there has been a bunch of outrageous stupidity with things like Guantanamo (indefinite detainment without trial for foreigners) and SOPA (taking away domains from foreigners)
Re:When in Rome (Score:5, Insightful)
or in fact the whole EU
Not quite, while most speech is free here, we still criminalize some at least in part of the countries. For example in Germany, where denying the holocaust is unlawful (and in fact, such laws were first imposed by the US Army when they took control after WWII - apparently, Free Speech only counts back home).
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:When in Rome (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:When in Rome (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
The soldiers didn't decide the censorship policy. The fact that you're assuming that I'm criticizing them is absurd. I'm criticizing the decision makers.
And I'm not even so much criticizing the decision, as the hypocrisy of claiming moral superiority as one of the only countries with real free speech, when the US has shown it means squat when shit hits the fans.
the reality was that he was going to take over Europe and eventually get to American soil, after consolidating a European base with his incredibly effective war machine.
That's why the joined the war, and I'm extremely glad they did. But don't come and bullshit me telling me that was the mindset after Germany was tak
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with you that US only entered WW2 due to pearl harbour, but I'm curious, would you prefer a Russian or German Europe to what it is now? And if anything Japan showed US that it is not untouchable.
US profited big time from WW2 in various ways, I'd say that European countries (UK included) have more than paid their debt to the US by now.
What I'm trying to say is that the world of politics is a little bit more complicated than "I helped you, be grateful". There are a lot of fingers in the same pie, I'm
Re: (Score:2)
The victory of the allies assured US economic dominance for the next 60 years. That would have never happened if Germany conquered all of Europe, and the Japanese all of East-Asia.
If you were around in the 1940's, your isolationist worldview would fit right in with the popular opinion at the time. It was fortuanate that some disagreed with your ilk.
Re: (Score:2)
The rest of Europe just stands around naval gazing and complaining
Naval gazing? Staring at the Navy? At the ocean? Or did you mean navel gazing? And sorry if we don't want to join in your Imperialist genocides but we happen to think that every conflict you have engaged in since WW2 have been unjust, that is why we abstain.
Re: (Score:2)
Not entirely true, the UK and France did declare war eventually on Germany when their excuses dried up over taking back what was supposedly theirs (taken away from them in the treaty of Versaillies.
The US gained an economy from WW2 in Europe, it brought them out of the great depression.
Don't use 'England' when you mean the UK. That'll be four countries technically speaking.
In any case, you need somebody to take the cautious approach. Had the US listened more to world opinion they wouldn't have illegally inv
Re: (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Nazification#American_zone
Re: (Score:3)
I think there is still a lot grey areas when it comes to dealing with non-resident foreigners.
Guantanamo has always been a half ass and reckless way of handing a problem that doesn't really fit into any existing US judicial system. Those captured on foreign territory engaged in hostilities against the US has caused the problem. The US judicial system is not a real good option. Any terrorist
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
End of argument.
Most Middle Eastern states are various degrees of not-free speech. You know that before you go in (well, you do if you're not an utter idiot) ; entry is an implicit (and often explicit, in the conditions of your visa, contract or landing card) acceptance that their laws apply to you.
Ignorance of the law is not a
Re: (Score:2)
I think the grandparent was just, as he should pointing out that there are other countries, such as the USA (or Iceland or in fact the whole EU etc.), which are superior to Bahrain in that they support everybody's right to free speech even if they are just visiting.
Huh?
I think it's more like "any industrialized country on Earth is superior to Bahrain...". Seriously, expecting free speech in Bahrain is like expecting free speech when you visit North Korea. How is it any surprise when someone gets deporte
Re: (Score:2)
It's the first word in the headline, even.
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
He's not in the USA.
No; but freedom of speech is not a right which suddenly disappears when you cross the Mexican border. This is a fundamental and ancient right which nobody has the right to take away from you no matter what. This man knew that he was putting himself at risk but when he "saw the government's brutal response to a fledgling revolution, he knew he couldn't stay neutral". The point where you start to criticise him for doing that is the point where you have become supporter of the oppressor.
People who stand up for freedom need our support; they already know that they are putting themselves at risk and don't need the words of a bunch of cowards afraid of their own shadows to tell them that.
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
No; but freedom of speech is not a right which suddenly disappears when you cross the Mexican border. This is a fundamental and ancient right which nobody has the right to take away from you no matter what.
Agreed, although I would go one step further to say that, while this is a fundamental right that nobody has the right to take away from you, that doesn't mean that people with power won't try, nor does it mean that you will not (possibly) suffer for attempting to exercise that right. There is a subtle distinction between "This is the way it should be" and "This is the way it is."
This man knew that he was putting himself at risk but when he "saw the government's brutal response to a fledgling revolution, he knew he couldn't stay neutral". The point where you start to criticise him for doing that is the point where you have become supporter of the oppressor.
People who stand up for freedom need our support; they already know that they are putting themselves at risk and don't need the words of a bunch of cowards afraid of their own shadows to tell them that.
Agreed, without reservations.
Re: (Score:2)
freedom of speech ... is a ... ancient right
ROTFLMAO.
which nobody has the right to take away from you no matter what
Multiculturalism believes that all cultures are just as valid as "Western Judeo-Christianity", and their culture says, "don't insult the Sultan".
[sarcasm]Multiculturalism FTW!![/sarcasm]
Let them eat cake (Score:2)
He's not in the USA.
No; but freedom of speech is not a right which suddenly disappears when you cross the Mexican border. This is a fundamental and ancient right which nobody has the right to take away from you no matter what.
Of course freedom of speech allows you to say something that is so blatantly wrong, but it also allows me to correct you... In some countries there is some degree of freedom of speech but nothing like in the USA.
As an example, in France making a sexist or racist joke can lead to jail time. And France is not Myanmar. Canada has also strong laws regarding "hate propaganda" and antisemitism.
When you say that freedom of speech is a fundamental right, you remind me of a child that does not understand that their
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
freedom of speech is not a right which suddenly disappears when you cross the Mexican border. This is a fundamental and ancient right
[citation needed]
Seriously - name a country that had such a right before 1776.
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, it does date back a long time [wikipedia.org]. The concept was not an invention of the US consititution.
Re: (Score:3)
The US Constitution did not, of course, guarantee freedom of speech either. Black slaves were most certainly not free to speak as they wanted.
Re: (Score:2)
The idea that it's wrong to harm someone physically or deprive them of their possessions based merely on something they said, especially if it's true, can be traced all the way back to the idea of proportional response, and even to the Golden Rule. These concepts are among the oldest principles of justice around, predating even the concepts of nations and governments, much less political philosophy and formally recognized rights.
Sweden (Score:2)
Sweden had Freedom of the press in 1766 [olalarsmo.com] (tryckfrihetsfÃrordning) and a hardcore freedom of information clause actually in the nation's constitution.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
In a way this is an example of why third world countries don't improve to first world standards. Their best people leave to first world countries. As a result the third world country is run by third world leaders supported by third world voters. First world guy drops in to get a job, discovers that the place is badly run and follows emigrants from that country back to his own first world country.
So if you want to see improvement in Bahrain, don't allow immigration from that country at all, for at least a ge
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
That is, of course, merely curtailing another fundamental human right to resettle. Beyond that, it was tried (and didn't work) for the USSR.
Re:When in Rome (Score:4, Insightful)
In a way this is an example of why third world countries don't improve to first world standards. Their best people leave to first world countries. As a result the third world country is run by third world leaders supported by third world voters.
Ha!
Bahrain is a third world country supported by the US of A.
The same goes for Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE, and Qatar.
(I may have missed a middle eastern country or two, there are a few asian ones I didn't include)
As long as they're with us on Oil, Israel, and the Global War on Terror, we give them free reign to act like assholes to their own citizens.
Re: (Score:2)
Without the USA the countries you list would just go back to living in tents, riding around on camels and cutting each others heads off. (to paraphrase a line from Syriana [wikipedia.org]). It won't make a difference to their third world status.
Re: (Score:3)
...and if the cultural norm is to shoot people for peacefully protesting, we should just accept that cultural difference and be happy.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm from the US to, but that doesn't mean that I'd move to Iran and start badmouthing the Iranian authorities. Same goes for any other countries.
Even the US has its standards and if as somebody here on a visa one does something that pisses off the government one shouldn't be surprised if one isn't offered a renewal.
Re: (Score:2)
True, my point is he was raised different, its not uncommon for people who move to different countries later in life, struggle culturally. In this case, the government controls the culture with fear, so clashing with the culture = clashing w the government, make sense?
While we can make an argument for how arrogant it makes us Americans, but we are used to having the 1st amendment shielding us and having lived w it your whole life, you come to expect it.
Re: (Score:2)
Point taken, though he's still not American.
Re: (Score:2)
Not sure why I thought that, I did read the article for once :P
I guess he's just kinda dumb for doing what he did either way.
Re: (Score:2)
I completely agree he should've kept his mouth shut, or at least expected consequences. Bahrain isn't known for its tolerance of dissent.
Re: (Score:2)
blaming the victim if i ever heard. regardless of weather its "custom" to ignore the disgressions of the government, doesn't
Re: (Score:2)
There are many occasions where it is perfectly reasonable to blame the victim. Knowingly doing something that entails risk makes one at least partially responsible for the outcome.
If you walk into a biker bar and start making rude gestures, you bear responsibility for getting the crap kicked out of you. It doesn't excuse the bikers from culpability for assault, but ignoring a likely outcome is just plain stupid.
There are times where blaming the victim is unreasonable. That doesn't negate the fact there are
Re: (Score:2)
blaming the victim if i ever heard. regardless of weather its "custom" to ignore the disgressions of the government, doesn't
Sorry, but it's entirely appropriate to blame the victim in many circumstances.
Since you mention weather, let's look at some examples with that. Suppose a woman gets mad at her husband, and to make him scared or whatever, she runs outside, where it's nighttime and -40 and there's several feet of snow on the ground. Her frozen body is found behind the house in springtime. (True story
Re: (Score:2)
I don't see anything morally wrong or ungrateful with someone biting that hand. Quite the opposite. I'd rather they f****** bit it right off.
There's nothing morally wrong with biting that hand, but it's stupid because that hand can crush you like a gnat. He's lucky that Bahrain isn't quite as bad as North Korea or Myanmar, where he would have just been disappeared.
Re:When in Rome (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm from the US to, but that doesn't mean that I'd move to Iran and start badmouthing the Iranian authorities.
That's not the question. The question is:
You never intended to badmouth the Iranians; You wanted to support their culture and be open; but now you are faced with the bad side of it. Are you really saying it's a better person who lets the rape victim be stoned to death without a word?
Re: (Score:3)
Wow. That was a face slap of cold water...but well put.
I'll bite on this for a moment and play the "what would I do" game. Given what you said, I would quietly make plans to get out of the country quickly, but with reason. I'd tell my local boss I have family issues that need addressing at home and it wont take long. Before male neighbor or female neighbor truly discover I witnessed this atrocity I am on a plane, back for home. My next stop is to call a recruiter to begin looking for a new job, because
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah because all the people carrying obama is hitler signs are in prison.. oh wait..
Re: (Score:2)
Probably, you'd get a bunch of pissed of people looks and some TSA would probably ask you to keep moving and if you didn't, he'd take you to the office on disturbing the peace, let you sit for an hour and tell you to gtfo. Don't expect a black bag and a beating though.
Did you hear the one about American Airlines new deal? They’ll fly you straight from the airport to the office.
Re: (Score:2)
he would also probably be stripped and searched too.
Get out of fail free card. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Get out of fail free card. (Score:5, Funny)
Government: Here's your plane ticket. Get out.
Dissenter: Screw you, man! I'm standing up for FREEDOM!!
Government: We could shock your balls instead.
Dissenter: Which flight was that again?
He is lucky (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:He is lucky (Score:5, Insightful)
For a love of.... We are talking about Bahrain, not US. It is getting old. Push your message about evil NDAA and POSA in other forums. This one already knows that.
Re: (Score:2)
What forget it? If he had done the same thing in the US, he would be mentioned several times in the media, he's propably famous, alive and no one would arrest him (shocking!). And now please go panic about something else.
Re: (Score:2)
Why do you think all his friends and co-expatriates nervously suggested he leave sooner rather than later?
Re: (Score:2)
Whoosh. NDAA is an US bill; see Section 1021: Indefinite Detention without trial [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, I'm sorry, did I venture on-topic? Here, let me help you back onto your soapbox.
Re: (Score:2)
sung to the tune of Hampsterdance by Hampton the Hamster
He is lucky He's Australian (Score:2)
Bahraini officials gave Mr. Mitchell a ticket out of the country because he is a professional from an Anglophone nation. He could have disappeared into the Bahrani justice system as easily as a Bahrani citizen, but dealing with the cleanup would have been more a PITA than the responsible officials thought it was worth. Being a First World passport holder frequently has its benefits.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, from the article sounds like they black hood people over there, v for vendetta type shit. Dunno, not much we can do, the people over there have to take action somehow. The government is trying its best to prevent this by going as far as monitoring social media.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not in anyone best interest, because even if it's an act against an oppressive government, it's a piss poor way of doing it. It's like trying to stop a war buy running unarmed in the middle of the battlefield yelling "Stop!". It may be brave, but it's also stupid.
You'd think... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you are willing to go to an oppressive country. And in so doing contribute to their economy and success, then... it's just crocodile tears when you find out that that oppressive country is oppressive to you too.
Re:You'd think... (Score:5, Interesting)
To be fair we never allowed that censorship law to pass. There are still forces at work to get the internet censored but currently it's uncensored here in Australia.
Re: (Score:2)
not as unsenosred as you think
Labor Senator Kate Lundy said in January 2010 that she is lobbying within the party for an "opt-out" filter, describing it as the "least worst" option.[41] In February 2010 she said she would propose the opt-out option when the filtering legislation goes before caucus.[42]
Stephen Conroy has stated that 85% of Internet Service Providers, including Telstra, Optus, iPrimus and iiNet, welcome the Internet filter.[43] In response, Steve Dalby, iiNet's chief regulatory officer, stated that iiNet as a company does not support the Internet filter, and never has.[44]
On 9 July 2010, Stephen Conroy announced that any mandatory filtering would be delayed until at least 2011.[45]
In June 2011 two Australian ISPs, Telstra and Optus, confirmed they would voluntary block access to a list of child abuse websites provided by the Australian Communications and Media Authority and more websites on a list compiled by unnamed international organizations from mid-year.[46]
there is some minor filtering at the moment, but that won't last long, major filtering will be implemented soon.
Re:You'd think... (Score:4, Insightful)
What do you mean "we", white man? Not everyone here's from the US, you know?
This is unfortunate. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is unfortunate--there is a great deal that is quite wrong in the world, that is in effect only available on a pull-basis. I met a guy at a panel discussion a few months ago who had been personally tortured by Kaderov, the governor of Chechneya for Moscow. Why the hell do we waste so much time on what they put on the news, when you could actually be reporting that kind of thing on the news? Five to ten minutes a week that isn't a sound-byte, but is someone talking about an issue, would be a massive increase to the information most Americans receive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Five to ten minutes a week that isn't a sound-byte, but is someone talking about an issue, would be a massive increase to the information most Americans receive.
We have that, it's called NPR.
But how can it be? (Score:2)
The lovely lovely democratic freedom loving state of Bahrain is on the US good guy list! (Along with Saudi Arabia)
The US even has troops in these countries so that their own troops can focus on upholding liberty and justice for all!
That Australian chap must have said something really really nasty! Nasty nasty! Must have deserved what he got!
Re: (Score:2)
The US even has troops in these countries so that their own troops can focus on upholding liberty and justice for all!
Don't be stupid. The only reason we give a rat's ass about them is that precious fluid which powers the world's economy.
Re: (Score:2)
I checked, there isn't.. don't verify that though, you don't need to. I double checked.
As a general rule ... (Score:2)
As a general rule, you do NOT criticize a foreign nation while you are in it. This is even true if you are visiting a country with a strong respect for freedom and due process. The reason is simple enough: even though you are expected to obey their laws, you are almost never given the same legal protection as a citizen.
So yes, bring your issues up. Yet you should demonstrate enough patience to protect yourself and the people who you associated with in that country.
Re: (Score:3)
Well...this is pretty much true, unless you're in a western country. Then it's perfectly okay. Try it sometime and see what happens, because in a "western nation" you'll be treated with kid gloves. Anywhere else, they'll put the kid gloves on you before they take a hand, or start lashing you, then deport you.
And how is this news? (Score:5, Informative)
Bahrain beat and killed its own citizens because they dared to demand rights. The rulers are evil tyrants along the lines of Gaddafi, Assad, et al. Kicking an Australian out of the country for what he posted on Facebook is nothing compared to the far more vile atrocities they have committed.
Re: (Score:2)
Both are news. This involves FACEBOOK! therefore it's considered /. worthy, while the other isn't.
Ladies and Gentlemen (Score:2)
Welcome to Bahrain International Airport. Please set your watches back Five Hundred Years.
Re: (Score:2)
Welcome to Islamic governments.
Yet more sensationistic articles (Score:5, Informative)
Mr. Mitchell was not;
1. "deported" His job ended so he probably no longer had a valid work visa
2. "forced to flee". He was advides by his ex-boss to leave as soon as possible. He could have refused and stayed until he something happened.
How about a little truth in reporting. The issue is bad enough as it is without throwing falsehoods on top.
Re: (Score:3)
"Reading between the lines" and "recognizing subtext" isn't quite the same as "throwing falsehoods."
A threat's a threat, even if they don't wave the electrodes in your face.
Re: (Score:2)
Mr. Mitchell was not;
1. "deported" His job ended so he probably no longer had a valid work visa
His job didn't just end. He was fired (and wasn't allowed to finish the month).
And yes, that's what "deported" means, that your visa suddenly gets invalidated and that your'e no longer welcome in the country. I'm not sure why your'e even bringing up this circular argument.
And yes, you can still be "deported", even if you have to drive yourself unescored to the airport. Just like you can still go to a prison you were sentenced to, even if you have to drive yourself (or have a friend drive you) unescorted to
Hey, we do that too. Worse, really (Score:2)
All that US prosecutors have to do now is torture the facts until they reveal that your unpopular opinions constitute "material support for terrorism":
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/12/i-guess-posting-videos-online-can-make-you-terrorist [motherjones.com] ...you can easily see the Bahrain prosecutors turning "activism" into "terrorism" with a stroke of the pen and a few sad stories of injured policemen at the protests, and the "value of the advertising" of the Facebook page turned into "material support", the way the Bosto
Re:Hey, we do that too. Worse, really (Score:4, Insightful)
a few sad stories of injured policemen at the protests
In Lybia, the goverment says that a lot of soldiers were killed during the protests, but in fact, they were killed by other soldiers because they refused to shoot people.
Being a soldier does not automatically make you a brainless killer.
An Austrailian teaching English? (Score:3)
Perish the thought, I think I'm gonna faint.
I've been there; they barely even speak English.
(joking, just joking)
Re: (Score:2)
At least they can spell....
Austrailian is phonetically accurate, as pronounced in Australia.
Plus "Preview" is suspiciously Australian in appearance, and there isn't an accurate version of that word in English.
Use common sense people. (Score:2)
Not all of the world is run like a European/American-style Democracy. Just because you can get away with this sort of thing in a western-style Democracy doesn't mean that you should think you can get away with it anywhere.
Not that I think Bahrain's government is right here, but he had to know that these guys play by these rules.
LK
Rules For Bahrain... (Score:3)
1. Make huge gobs of money.
2. If you are not there to make money yourself, you better be making money for someone else. (Spending it or being a slave.)
3. If you do ANYTHING that is not 1 or 2, you will soon be dead, deported, or being exploited as a slave to make someone else money.
Bahrain is a cross between "Brave New World", "Atlas Shrugged" and "Lord of the Flies".
Act accordingly.
Re: (Score:2)
It's people who read things like my quote and assume I'm a fan of terrorists that scares me about Facebook postings being taken out of context and hurting people's careers....
No shit.
Here's a better example to use in the future, to avoid idiotic trolling:
How easy would it have been for the British Empire to dismantle the Sons of Liberty in the 1770s if all its members were on Facebook using their real names!?!
Well, avoid trolls who don't hate America, anyway.
Re: (Score:2)
Except that the weather underground really were terrorists. And the OWS folks really have had no shortage of people who have had murders, rapes, arson's, thefts, destruction of public and private property, tied to them either. The difference between then and now though is that people in the past who were private in say the US weren't looked at with suspicion. Today people who are private in the US are. Though in pretty much anywhere else in the world, the opposite hold true still.
You probably picked a p