Librarian Attacks Amazon's Kindle Lending Program 191
destinyland writes "A California librarian is urging librarians to complain to Amazon over issues with privacy and advertising in Amazon's new Kindle ebook lending program for libraries. 'In our greedy attempt to get content into our users' hands, we have failed to uphold the highest principle of our profession, which is intellectual freedom,' she argues in a 10-minute video. (Read the transcript here). Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers, 'so it's an instant violation of all of our privacy policies. And we haven't told people that, and we need to tell people that.' And while many libraries have strict policies against endorsing a particular product, the check-out process concludes on Amazon.com with a pitch urging library patrons to purchase more Amazon books — and there's even book-buying plugs in their 'due date' reminders."
So amazon is supposed to just not make money? (Score:1)
I'm confused as to how it makes sense for Amazon to work with libraries if they cant even advertise.
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I'm confused as to how it makes sense for Amazon to work with libraries if they cant even advertise.
How about letting libraries lend books directly from overdrive like the epub books ? or supporting epub format for kindle ? They can make all the money they want. Just not by advertising on eBook rentals which are purchased with public funds and have nothing to do with Amazon except for their dogged notion of not supporting epubs.
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Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"
Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.
Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? (Score:5, Interesting)
Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"
Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.
I tried to untangle that double negative phrase .. but anyway .. consider this: You own a bookstore. Your local library, which you fund through taxes, has advertisements for Amazon popping up all over. Pissed, yet?
Libraries, as public entities, should show no favoritism or grant preferential placement/access to resources influenced by a directly related private business.
If the local painter wants to give the library a reduced rate on redecorating for the placement of a placard indicating the fine (or shoddy) work was performed by Local Painter, that's one thing, as it does not directly affect access to books/periodicals.
If you have to have an Amazon account to checkout ebooks on a kindle, that's a barrier. If the books include advertising for Amazon and their offerings of books, that is also a barrier.
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True, local booksellers have a legitimate grievance, and one that is much more problematic with amazon than it was when it was only the publishers who were doing it and is much more problematic when people can buy from amazon immediately than when there was mail order.
But that difference is one of degree--an important difference of degree, I grant, and one which should be considered carefully, but still not a fundamental change of policy, when you think about it. Because books *Always* advertise. Sometime
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1. Getting a coupon with your tax return for a discount on Suppositories?
2. Or when you get a speeding ticket, the officer also hands you a coupon for a free eye exam at Lens Crafters...
3. Before sentencing, a convicted pedophile, and everyone else must listen to a 30 minute infomercial for Ronald MacDonald House.
4. During an arrest, the suspect, bent over the hood of a car is giv
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Posts like that make me hope the poster gets a really horrific disease that doesn't kill him right away, but makes him linger. I wouldn't cross the street to piss on that poster if he was on fire.
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Posts like this make me miss the GNAA. Todays trolls are a weak, struggling, inferior strain - I'm embarassed for their feeble efforts. It's sad, really.
So do the libraries (Score:4, Informative)
The libraries also keep a record of who has checked out what books. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to send you a notice saying you have overdue books.
They also are subject to FISA warrants (the "we can't tell you if your history has been subpoenaed") for your entire borrowing history.
Re:So do the libraries (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a difference between a record of the books you currently have out and a record of the books you've ever checked out.
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And libraries do too. GP is correct. This person is just a whinging hypocrite.
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Depends. Some libraries offer this service, but it's opt in.
Re:So do the libraries (Score:4, Informative)
Re:So do the libraries (Score:4, Informative)
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"Generally" is a big assumption, esp. for small-town operations where nepotism is important to getting the job.
The librarian is not a programmer, and has not audited the code. They know what the vendor tells them - nothing more. This is especially true for solutions that are either completely or partially hosted o
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Yes, but the library would never use that information to try to sell you something, which apparently is the most offensive activity imaginable, if you are a librarian.
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Yes, but the library would never use that information to try to sell you something
No... but they do alert the FBI if you take out any 'subversive' books.
And I think that's worse.
Re:So do the libraries (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't be stupid [ala.org] and don't spread stupid [ala.org].
If your local library ignores the ALA, that's up to you to fix.
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So what's the FBI "Library Awareness Program" [wikipedia.org] all about then?
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It's not what you claimed was happening.
Nor is it current.
Nor was it library-endorsed.
And it certainly wasn't library-initiated.
So... what the hell are you talking about?
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It's not what you claimed was happening.
Nor is it current.
Are you naive enough to think they stopped doing it because a few librarians complained? All it means is they changed the name and stopped doing it so openly.
Nor was it library-endorsed.
And it certainly wasn't library-initiated.
I never said it was.
I think I see the problem now, you're a librarian (or know one personally). You think you/they have ethics and are personally offended by this.
I've got news: Ethics don't apply when the black SUVs arrive outside and people come in saying "Patriot Act". I've heard they can be very persuasive. You also can't ask questions and you're n
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Yawn. Got any proof to all these wild accusations? No, of course not. Because it's "hidden better now..."
I think I see the problem. You watch television all day in your mother's basement and don't have friends to help you learn about the way the world actually works.
PS- you kept that rant pretty short. That'll never get you cred with fellow conspiracy theorists.
Re:So do the libraries (Score:5, Informative)
I used to work for a company that makes library software and this is actually a very important issue in that field. While keeping a list of who has what is unavoidable, the librarians are very adamant that there should be no borrowing history stored. When you return the book they make a point to delete all records that show you ever had it.
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So, you check out a book, find that it's damaged, and return it - and they have no way of telling who took it out before you. They have 50 other customers with the sam
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They're not going to notice that some smart-a** removed the last page, so you end up not knowing how the story ends (happened once) or that some other fundy librarian had sliced out pages in a reference work (you know, the books that don't get checke
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Untrue. My public library has all the books I ever checked out. I have browsed my account online before it goes back years actually.
You should request that they remove the data.
You might also contact your legislature to request a bill to mandate patron privacy. In Montana, the library patron has a right to privacy, except in the matter of overdue books and bills. Libraries are also required by the state legislature to post a notice informing patrons of the danger of patron records being seized by Federal agents and that librarians would be unable to inform them (the patrons) of any seizure. Within months, the Montana Shared Catalog im
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Re:So do the libraries (Score:5, Informative)
Most libraries have privacy policies that state they delete the record of a book being checked out once it is returned. For example, you can find the policy for NYC public libraries here: http://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/legal-notices/privacy-policy [nypl.org]. They even state that they backup their data, and the record of your returned book may exist for an additional 4 weeks in their rolling backup system. I love that they give you this level of detail into how they operate.
my library keeps the whole list (Score:2)
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libraries don't sell your data
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1. [citation needed] ... yet.
.... that you are aware of.
2.
3.
4. no, they give it up for free (as per the article).
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Um, not at my library. We delete your borrowing history once your books are checked back in. And the head librarian has gone to jail instead of giving out what people currently have checked out.
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Where do you live? I want to get a library card there!
Re:So do the libraries (Score:5, Informative)
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Except if you have any relationship to that foreign agent in anyway. If you've contacted him, or even if he's contacted someone you've contacted. You are subject to FISA as well.
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Historically, the libraries make a stink about any search, and are sticklers for the law. Corporation are willing to give over any information the feds want with a phone call.
Exactly, and as anyone who's seen Seinfeld (Score:2)
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Because it said so in the first half of the sentence (which just happened to be in the comment's title for some reason)? ;-)
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First, it's a good thing that you're not a librarian, because your reading comprehension needs some work. I never said that all libraries keep everything for years and years. I *did* say that they do keep records - and that obviously includes what's checked out and by whom.
Second, just because you delete a record doesn't mean it's gone. Ever hear of back-ups?
Third, how much control do you have over the company that you outsource the application to?
Fourth, None of this prevents them from also takin
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1. Absolutely not true for libraries that still use manual check-in and check-out.
2. Impossible to verify for libraries that use 3rd-party solutions hosted elsewhere.
3. Absolutely not true for libraries that have been served a warrant NOT to delete the records for a particular individual.
Librarians are touchy that way (Score:5, Insightful)
It might not be a bad idea for Amazon to work out a similar plan: simply destroy the record once the book is returned. They might have to burn some ad records as well though, since I'm sure they're offering the book for sale, and it would be easy to track that if they got subpoenaed. My guess is that is where Amazon would balk.
Re:Librarians are touchy that way (Score:5, Insightful)
They won't. To Amazon, your borrowing history is "product" that they can package and sell to advertisers and their own internal teams. It would be like asking them to burn money.
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So they dont know what books they have, which have been loaned out and to whom? Thats not a library, thats a "free book box".
They know what books they have. They know what books are currently on loan, and who has them. What they CHOOSE NOT TO KNOW is who had what book previously.
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Strangely enough, my little small town coffee shop (one of two in town, neither are a chain) *is* a free book box. They've got shelves full, feel free to come in, get some coffee, take a (paperback only) book home. And next time you come in for your coffee, feel free to return it, or bring some other books or magazines in. They have a good assortment of hard cover books, but those aren't allowed out of the store...
People don't care (Score:1)
Not with a bang, but with a whisper... (Score:1)
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Unless Librarians are Hot, they are pretty damned useless.
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Poorly managed and funded libraries will obviously be irrelevant. Well funded and managed libraries will never become irrelevant. The problem is that our country doesn't value education and sharing anymore. The decline of our library system tells us nothing about libraries, but it speaks volumes about our country.
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We're not that far away from a time when ebooks are cheap enough for libraries to actually lend out. Borrowing books is only one facet of a library's usefulness, around here they have free classes, access to computers, not to mention librarians that can find all sorts of information that one has a hard time finding on ones own.
Right now a Kindle, for instance, is $79 new, DVDs and some of the more expensive books can be that much or more to replace.
In other words, even with the books replaced by electronic
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Digital distribution could dramaticallt expand a library's reach with the same resources.
Not when there's no competition in the distribution networks.
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Wait... (Score:2)
Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers, 'so it's an instant violation of all of our privacy policies.
Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act? How is this any worse? At least Amazon can do something positive with the data and make recommendations of books I might like...
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Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act?
If you'd read the earlier posts, you'd know that they don't. However, the current ebook lending system at my library requires using some crappy Adobe software which presumably has to 'phone home' for DRM, so I'm not sure how this is worse.
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Quietly, .... (Score:2)
Shock of Shocks (Score:2)
Does it really surprise anyone? Amazon is the company that went and deleted people's books AFTER they were paid for and amazon will do what it takes to make a dollar. Libraries and Amazon really don't have the same mission (and shouldn't) so why is this any surprise.
Patriot Act (Score:1)
“The American Library Association (ALA) opposes any use of governmental power to suppress the free and open exchange of knowledge and information or to intimidate individuals exercising free inquiryALA considers that sections of the USA PATRIOT ACT are a present danger to the constitutional rights and privacy rights of library users.” - From the ALA website.
“The searches of some records kept by libraries and bookstores were authorized in an obscure provision of the USA Patriot Act, quietl
All your base are belong to us (Score:1)
All your base are belong to us
From a Librarian (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the privacy concerns, I've noticed a lot of comments on "Well, don't libraries give up those records with the PATRIOT act anyway?" When the PATRIOT act was enacted, libraries in the US scrambled to protect the rights of their users and the majority of them only have a record of who has what item out at that time - they do not have a record of what you returned.
And of course, there are lots who are saying "Libraries, bah - NOT RELEVANT." And I'm sure that is true for many of you; however, the library is more than books. Libraries provide a space for people to gather, they provide free internet to those who cannot afford it, they provide lessons on various computer programs, storytimes for children, etc. I am in an academic college library, and the majority of my students cannot afford their textbooks, let alone a computer for them to use. Please remember, you are probably viewing this article from your own computer - there are still a lot of people out there who don't have that luxury. Libraries help people with research, and despite what everyone thinks - not everything is found via Google. Perhaps Rush Limbaugh could have used a librarian / library when he made those horrible remarks about the LRA.
Al Franken said it best (Score:2)
Rush Limbaugh's fact checker has the easiest job in the world.
Not that I like much about Franken's poltics either, but he is a pretty good comedian.
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Does it? I don't think I would ever see it that way. I'd see it as my Kindle endorsing Amazon. I'd fully expect to see something encouraging me to buy from B&N on a Nook. This doesn't surprise me, I expect Amazon to track what I'm doing. That's how all their recommendation stuff works. It should probably be disclosed (and
Librarian impotently nerd-rages at clueless masses (Score:2)
I think I know which profession to look for women in, we'll get along just fine!
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Librarians are the proto-geeks, proto-DBAs, and proto-sysadmins.
Not to mention most are female, quite a few single, and quite a few good looking. Heck, there is even a subset where all 3 attributes apply!
Stand up for the library (Score:1)
The inconsistency in the Slashdot ethos about information is stunning. The library is THE PLACE that has kept information free in American society and when a librarian stands up for everyone in trying to a) protect privacy and b) give people access to information without bias, y'all complain?
Where else can you, within current copyright law, read an entire book for free? Get it sent to your local library? Read an eBook for free? Take your kids and let them read and play in a special area for them? Take
What's she afraid of? (Score:2)
If I agree with her, and her library has a copy of the book I want, I will read it in hard copy. If I disagree with her, I will resent that she is advocating for all libraries to take this choice from me... Even when they don't HAVE a copy of the book I want to read in hard copy.
Actually, this is the only Kindle program I really like. Participating libraries can provide something they may not HAVE a copy of (saving small libraries). And if they DO have the hard paper copy, I'd probably prefer it anyway,
Librarians Rock (Score:2)
They don't mess around.
Talking too loudly? SHHHH!
Demanding the records of a librarian patron? STFU!
Um, what? (Score:2)
> In our greedy attempt to get content into our users' hands
Um, wait I have this. Greedy attempt... get content in other's hands... greedy... others... greedy, ... access to content for others... greedy...
I got nuthin'. Can someone help me on this?
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Sarcasm. I can believe that. It's a traditional problem; tones of voice don't work in print.
Sorry, libraries? what are those? (Score:2)
That is what your little kids will be saying in a few years.
Re:Poor Libraries (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this librarian is just upset because he/she is realizing how irrelevant the idea of a library is anymore. Seriously, when was the last time any of you actually used a library?
This week. I never understood why they are not utilized even more than they are in these economic times. Your taxes have already paid for the books on the shelves, why buy another copy?
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i go once a year and it's always full. people too cheap to pay for internet and asian kids.
Yeah, if you are too cheap to pay for an asian kid, you shouldn't have one. After all, what's he going to do after school if you can't afford internet for him to surf?
Re:Poor Libraries (Score:4, Insightful)
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Spoken like someone who doesn't understand that $10 a month is a lot of money for some people.
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i go once a year and it's always full. people too cheap to pay for internet and asian kids
in this day when internet is $10 a month i can't understand how anyone would want to use it at the library
Because people can't fucking adapt.
I'll keep my 'net. When it goes away or becomes unusable, I'll head right back to the library. Adaptation: not that difficult. Unless you're too tied to social rules and games in life to focus on anything else but looks and "coolness". I digress.
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Public libraries are not targeted at working professionals - they are largely targeted at those who are able to visit them during business hours - retirees, the unemployed, stay at home parents and children. For most of us, paying $8 for a paperback is not an expensive proposition - fractional hour of income for multiple hours of pleasure. For those demographics listed above without direct income, the appeal is quite obvious.
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Kids go through scads of books, I wouldn't want to keep them all.
I used to buy a lot of books, but then I had to pack them all into boxes to move across the Atlantic and realised that borrowing them made far more sense when it was something I wasn't likely to read multiple times.
Of course e-books make storage much less of a problem.
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I have over a ton of books. Moving them cross country ain't cheap - certainly more than $1 a book (mostly hardbacks). I make an effort these days to get rid of books I don't think I'll read again.
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I buy a lot of books, I have tried going digital a couple of times and it sucks in so many levels I don't even want to get started. The show stopper, whatsoever, remains one thing: When you buy digital you end up with a copy of nothing (yeah that still is pretty much nothing).
If the information is nothing, why bother buying a book when you can just buy a box of paper for a much lower price?
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So what was your point? You aren't buying nothing with ebooks, you're buying information.
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I use my library all the time. They have a decent web interface where I can order what I want to be put on hold for me, and they email me when it's in. When I stop by I usually see a couple of other good books as well. They also have ebooks available through Overdrive; they just added Kindle/mobi books, but I haven't checked any of them out so I don't know if the checkout process is any different. I don't think that the Overdrive process would send you to Amazon, but I may be wrong on that.
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Seriously, when was the last time any of you actually used a library?
Last weekend.
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Until I got my kindle- I used the library all the time!
I use my kindle and download free books all the time (I use gutenburg instead of amazon- even if amazon has it for free).
The main problem with the library is that I don't always have time to read books- and frequently ran out of time to read a book- and renewing is such a hassle.
Whereas, reading the free books means I'm limited to older books- there are tonnes of older books I've always wanted to read that I never got around to... so I'm still reading b
Re:Poor Libraries (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost every week.
My kids are avid readers, so during the summer they check out about 8 books a week.
It' also has a good movie selection, and a game selection. It has teen specific activities, literacy programs, ESL programs, public space for meetings... and a coffee shop. Sadly they won't let me check out coffee~
Libraries are very relevant. I suggest you look at the features of your local library.
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Pretty sure they don't want the coffee back after you've finished it ...
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I use my local library all the time. Just read Danielewski's latest. And the new Ice and Fire (didn't want to pay $30 for a new hardcover) My wife uses it all the time, she just finished reading all three Hunger Games. My kids use it WAY more than I do (two kids, 5 books each, every other week). And there's always at least one or two other people in line to check out books when I go to check mine out.
To say nothing of all the people using the internet PCs in there. And the storytime for the kids. And
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My wife, at least once this week (DVDs and books). Me, once this week and probably tomorrow (to get out of the home office for a bit, and maybe a book). Pick any random day at any random time the Redmond, WA King County Library is open, and the parking lot will be a minimum of half full. Weekends or after work/school it's probably close to full.
That's not counting the eBooks that don't involve going to the b&m library. Overdrive worked, but was generally a PITA. The Amazon setup, all other complaints as
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I want to award a +1 funny to whoever moderated it as a +1 informative.
As to the original poster of the "first post" comment- completely useless- I'm glad a moderator had a sense of humour about it though- made me chuckle.
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That sort of thing absolutely does not happen in most library systems. I'm sorry to hear it's happening in yours... Where is that, if I might ask?
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Ah, maybe this is a matter of different mores in different countries? In the US, at least, librarians take not keeping this sort of history around very seriously in general.
As for not giving up any rights.... "I've got nothing to hide" at its finest.
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The point is that if your librarian has that data then your government can subpoena it. And there is a long history of governments using such data in pernicious ways (e.g. "blacklist anyone who has checked out the Communist Manifesto from employment").
For the rest, I suggest googling the phrase "I've got nothing to hide" and doing some reading....