EU Central Court Could Validate Software Patents 77
protoshell writes "'Software patents in Europe could be validated with a central patent court,' warns Richard Stallman in an article published in the Guardian. After the rejection of the software patent directive in 2005, large companies have shifted their lobbying towards the validation of software patents in Europe through a central patent court, which is foreseen with the Unitary Patent project. Even if the European Patent Convention literally excludes software from patents, the European Patent Office and the German courts interpret the exclusion narrowly, which makes software patents valid in the end."
Pathetic (Score:2, Insightful)
the European Patent Office and the German courts interpret the exclusion narrowly, which makes software patents valid in the end.
Pathetic...so it's narrowly interpretable whenever they chose so, but broadly interpretable when they chose so too?
Fuk dis shit.
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
I really wonder if what we're seeing here is the complete and utter failure of democracy as a viable form of government. You don't see this kind of stuff in China, where the government is more interested in the whole nation actually advancing, instead of particular people or companies who pay off the right people. What we have in Western democracies is a ridiculous amount of blatant corruption from corporations, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of mechanism to deal with this. In theory, the ballot box is supposed to be a check against corruption, but in practice it simply doesn't work as voters are too stupid and easily swayed to vote for the right candidates, instead of corporate-backed corrupt candidates.
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As some Scottish guy whose name I forget said a couple of centuries ago, democracy can only last until the voters realise they can vote to steal their neighbours' stuff.
However, dictatorship is hardly an improvement: sometimes you may get lucky and have an effective and relatively non-corrupt leader in charge, but most of the time it's another Stalin or Saddam Hussein.
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As some Scottish guy whose name I forget
Alexander Fraser Tytler, although the quote is also attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville who wasn't very Scottish. "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."
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Vladimir Zhirinovsky [wikipedia.org]:
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However, dictatorship is hardly an improvement: sometimes you may get lucky and have an effective and relatively non-corrupt leader in charge, but most of the time it's another Stalin or Saddam Hussein.
See, this is where the Chinese seem to have fixed the dictatorship problem. They're not a dictatorship, they're an oligarchy. So instead of one guy making all the decisions, there's a relatively small group of people making all the decisions. You could call it "dictatorship by committee". Yes, they have a
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Insightful)
Graft, corruption, and self-interest exist, even in China.
In theory, the ballot box is supposed to be a check against corruption, but in practice it simply doesn't work as voters are too stupid and easily swayed to vote for the right candidates, instead of corporate-backed corrupt candidates
You are supposing that there is a "right candidate" (and that that candidate is the one you would choose).
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Interesting)
You don't see this kind of stuff in China
You may not see it, but it is most definitely there. It's just that China's government is a hell of a lot more quiet about it, and the little bit that does see daylight [ft.com] is considered normal, especially when compared to the more outrageous crap (by Western standards) that businesses pull off both with and against each other.
It also helps the facade when you occasionally execute the occasional minor official or two [bbc.co.uk] who don't pay enough of a 'vig' to keep the upper echelons' bank accounts properly greased.
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Never mind voting, last time the european parlament (with people elected through voting) said no to software patents, the prime ministers tried to overturn the move and aprove a higher yes to patents, which, if I recall correctly, was stopped only because of the polac prime minister, to which all in EU should thank.
Voting, not voting, all bollocks and all the same.
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You, sir, need to spend a month or two in China (or pretty much any Asian country) trying to do business. Political corruption, bribery, and corpo
How much innovation actually comes from China (Score:2)
compared to how they just copy (in many cases poorly) from other nations and peoples?
While your view of China sounds grandiose and wonderful the fact remains, they don't innovate nearly as much as a society that protects the physical and intellectual property rights of individuals. While the idea of working for the common good is appealing human nature shows we are more likely to work harder for the common good when the individual rewards are considered worth while.
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While your view of China sounds grandiose and wonderful the fact remains, they don't innovate nearly as much as a society that protects the physical and intellectual property rights of individuals.
You do realize the USA didn't honor copyrights and patents from the old world when it first became a country, right? The US made a lot of money making "unauthorized" copies of stuff.
As for IP rights of individuals, we don't do that either. We only protect "IP rights" of corporations. When was the last time some
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promise
to represent your interests to the best of my ability!
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There's a word for that, "corruption".
The fix for corruption is not more corruption.
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IIUC, this is not exactly correct. You can patent software in conjunction with a technical process that is not purely data processing. I.e. a specific server app: no patent. A specific way of controlling a washing machine: patent, together with the contraption to excert control. This has been cemented in a recent final ruling by the german high court that handed a Siemens a nice painful defeat as they tried to patent software.
I wonder if the mp3 patents would be up for overturning under this new view.
I am a
And You Could Be The Next Winner! (Score:5, Insightful)
As a citizen of the EU, I know that EU has a lot of flaws. The economic policies, the subsidies, etc... However, so far both the legislative branches and the courts have been simply awesome when it comes to not giving in to the lobbying of multinational companies. The courts have been handing fines for anti-competitive practices, privacy violations, etc. left and right (and yes, for european companies too) and the legislators have destroyed software patents, 3-strikes copyright laws, etc. at every occasion. When we do get horrible laws, they're generally based on "think of the children" or "terrorism".
So yeah... The software patents could be validated but frankly, I'm rather optimistic about this.
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When we do get horrible laws, they're generally based on "think of the children" or "terrorism".
Unfortunately, only that last part sounds familiar.
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Even if the European Patent Convention literally excludes software from patents, the European Patent Office and the German courts interpret the exclusion narrowly, which makes software patents valid in the end.
What does that mean, exactly?
... and the legislators have destroyed software patents ...
Sounds like they've been attempting to destroy software patents, without as much real success as we might like.
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Sounds like they've been attempting to destroy software patents, without as much real success as we might like.
The EU's goal is to make the legislature a meaningless figurehead that just rubberstamps the output of the underlying bureaucracy; kind of like the Queen in the UK.
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As a citizen of the EU, I know that EU has a lot of flaws. The economic policies, the subsidies, etc... However, so far both the legislative branches and the courts have been simply awesome when it comes to not giving in to the lobbying of multinational companies (...) I'm rather optimistic about this.
This is because you never heard about the Laval and Viking cases [europa.eu], where the European Justice Court interpreted UE directive written by the parliament so wrongly that it reversed what UE parliement meant.
US is not a democracy. Sometimes it produces good things, sometimes it does not, and we have no control at all on this
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The United States used to break up monopolies, pass environmental protection laws, establish consumer safety standards, workplace safety standards, etc. Corporations have now cornered the electoral market. 90% of the population will consider voting for one of two candidates, both of whom depend on large corporations to get elected.
I would be willing to bet the lobbyists i
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The United States used to break up monopolies, pass environmental protection laws, establish consumer safety standards, workplace safety standards, etc. Corporations have now cornered the electoral market. 90% of the population will consider voting for one of two candidates, both of whom depend on large corporations to get elected.
I don't think many EU citizens can tell you the name of the "president of the EU". In fact I wouldn't be surprised if most people can't tell you who is representing them in the EU parliament. Europe is still comprised of many small sovereign nations, and this is where all the interesting politics takes place, e.g. the stuff people care about healthcare, daycare, old-people-care, military deployments, educational support, etc...
That said, don't think I'm not afraid of cooperate lobbyists.
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Add to that the fact that the respect for any legislation decreases the further south you get in Europe. Tax Authorities are treated with disrespect in the mediterranean countries and fear in northern Europe.
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Tax Authorities are treated with disrespect in the mediterranean countries
Only by the rich. The common people fear them. With the little guy, they manage to get every little penny they're entitled to, and throw you in jail if you fuck up. With the big guy, they tend to look elsewhere. That's one of the reasons southern Europe countries are so fucked up, the middle class supports the entire economy by itself.
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The courts you are talking about are mostly the ones from the European Court of Justice (ECJ).
The plan is to remove patentable subject matter from the hands of the ECJ, transferring that to a specialized patent court, similar to the CAFC.
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Yep, under the authoritarian Brown government in the UK it was always the European courts that I, as a British citizen living in the UK, had to rely on to protect my freedoms and liberties from my own government.
They may not be perfect but the EU judicial and legislative branches certainly seem to be a much better choice than their respective British, French, German, American, or Australian counterparts to live under. It's really only the Canadians that seem to do a much better job and even that seems somew
Re:Good for me? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course not. Suppose that you come up with something that piques the interest of one of the big boys. You'll soon be ceasing and desisting whatever it was that they want under the onslaught of a megaton of patents on everything from the way you press the 'Q' key on your keyboard to the best time of day to pick your nose. In the end they will have what they want - namely whatever it was that you did which got them interested - and you'll be left bankrupt.
Patents are not for small inventors. They are there for those with war chests full of them and, of course, lawyers.
Re:Good for me? (Score:4, Insightful)
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The analogy I use is that if Karl Benz had filed his patent for the combustion engine in the way software patents are filed, it would have read something like:
1). Put hydrocarbon compound into metallic structure.
2). Get power out of metallic structure.
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Exactly. At least now in Europe, the courts are better for smaller guys than in the USA. As I understand it, in many European countries (particularly Germany), there's a "loser pays" rule, so if some jerk tries to sue you over something that's BS, and of course he loses, he has to pay all your legal fees. It's not like that here in the USA; you have to have plenty of money to mount a legal defense, no matter how ridiculous the lawsuit. Sometimes, depending on the whims of the judge you happen to be assi
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Not true at all. I'll use the UK as an example because that's what I know. When starting in business you simply create a Limited company [wikipedia.org] And Limited means limited liability. So the company can be sued for debt, but your exposure as a director is limited to the amount initially invested (most typical), or the amount you guarantee when you take on directorship.
Personal bankruptcy works much like the US with a credi
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That's not what I've heard about Germany specifically. I do know that the UK is very different in many ways from continental Europe (in everything, not just bankruptcy law), and a lot closer to the US, so I would tend to think of the UK as an exception for anything.
Everything you wrote sounds exactly like the US.
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That's good to hear; I guess the information I read was a little dated. So why'd it take so long to bring that about anyway?
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Exactly. At least now in Europe, the courts are better for smaller guys than in the USA. As I understand it, in many European countries (particularly Germany), there's a "loser pays" rule, so if some jerk tries to sue you over something that's BS, and of course he loses, he has to pay all your legal fees. It's not like that here in the USA; you have to have plenty of money to mount a legal defense, no matter how ridiculous the lawsuit. Sometimes, depending on the whims of the judge you happen to be assigned to, and just how ridiculous the case is, he may grant you legal fees, but it's definitely not a sure thing.
Yes, there's a loser pays rule in the UK....but you don't often get all of your costs, normally you get 70%, and you don't get them until afterwards. If you're the plaintiff you might also find your case thrown out because you won't be able to pay the other side's costs if you lose. If you're the defendent you're going to have to find many hundreds of thousands to pay lawyers and may run out, leaving you likely to lose, or go bankrupt before the end of the case. Better, maybe, but still likely to be instant
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If Richard Stallman says so ... (Score:2, Insightful)
If Richard Stallman says so ...
I mean seriously ...? The line separating this "news" from pure FUD is a very thin one ...
Re:If Richard Stallman says so ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I, too, am glad that we are fortunate enough to live in a world where none of RMS's 1980s predictions about future attempts to increase corporate and governmental control over technology have come to fruition.
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Do yourselves a favor (Score:1)
Abolish patents. Trust me, history has shown that without them, the world is a better place.
See this for reference:
http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm
They're already valid (Score:4, Interesting)
*note: this does not mean "performed by a specific computer" is not obvious. This is purely about whether a class of subject matter is potentially patentable. Yes, performing software on a computer is obvious, but if the software is new and non-obvious, then the claim as a whole can be patentable.
Disclaimer: I am a US patent attorney. I've gotten many patents issued on software performed by a computing device, as well as software embodied in articles of manufacture, both here and in Europe. That said, I'm not your attorney, and this isn't legal advice, and is purely for the purposes of (my own) amusement.
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It's true that the European Patent Office has been granting US-style software patent for many years - but it's also the case that noone has dared to enforce such a patent via the European courts. This is probably bacause the EPO has been employing a very "creative" interpretation to justify it's practice - and is far from certain that it would hold up. That's one of the reasons that the EPO is working to desperately to change the law before it's shown that it has been breaking the current laws.
Now that the
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Yes, I can see you are a US patent attorney but you don't seem knowledgeable of EU law (which has to include laws from all countries as we are not a federal state). The difference between what is patenteable in the US and in the EU is immense. And the interpretation of patents done by courts is also much different.
With all of its problems, the EU has had a much superior stance (in my position) regarding big-corporation as Europe's mentality is much different from US.
For your information, here is article 52
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Yes, I can see you are a US patent attorney but you don't seem knowledgeable of EU law (which has to include laws from all countries as we are not a federal state).
No, I know... The EP patents I was talking about have been nationalized in the UK, France, Spain, Italy, and Germany. I suppose Austria may be different, but I doubt it.
The difference between what is patenteable in the US and in the EU is immense.
No, actually. As you note, EPC Art. 52 says that "programs for computers" are not patentable. That's exactly what I said originally: Programs are not patentable, just like in the US, software alone is not patentable. However, once tied to a machine, the software is patentable, both in the US, and in every EC state that I've nationalized in,
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Part of the difference may not be in actual law but in actual practice. The USPO is doing a fine job at playing ridiculous. Patents for all sorts of stupid things have been awarded and the whole process is much more complex. For example, in Europe any company or individual may oppose patenting whereas in the US you must challenge the patent in court (which is very expensive and undoable in practice).
software in Europe can only legally be patented if it is associated with some sort of mechanical / physical d
A dictator can make popular decisions (Score:1)
A dictator can make a decision which you might like; a democracy can make a decision which you do not like. Criticism of the EU is about the decision making process, not necessarily the actual decisions themselves (though enough of those have been criticised too).
The EU is undemocratic. The public did not have a say in the ratification of the EU constitution (in all but name). The politicians dragged their electorate into the scheme with out any consultation. It is a project driven by a European elite who c
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It is a project driven by a European elite who care only about economic momentum
Looks like they fucked up on that part, too.
Wait until Eu Parl fucks them up. (Score:1)
I patent the use of the letter "E" on line $0.02 p (Score:1)
I patent the use of the letter "E" on line $0.02 per use!
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Furthermore, pirate it for profit and use the profits to undertake actions that will eventually undermine their authority.
Like buying ammunition, explosives and flammables? Because those are the only things that will do.
Yea, yea yea. BS. Fud (Score:1)
Not logged in but mod me TROLL. Ain't gonna happen. FUD, again. The only truth of this is that /. will post it as fact. Good night. Mod me Troll. Sheeeeeesh............. Come on guys, WTW?
the European stop software patents petition (Score:1)