Craigslist Removes Its Controversial Adult Section 522
Cyrus writes "The online classified website Craigslist has removed its controversial Adult Services portion of its website. Technology blog TechCrunch was the first to report the section had been blacked out with the word 'Censored.'"
oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Interesting)
And what's wrong with prostitution anyway? In the end all girls cost money, many times much more than if you just get to the point right away. I'm in Thailand currently and it's all very casual - you go to a bar or gogo bar (not clubs), girls come to talk with you and you order them a few drinks and maybe play a round of billiard and just have good time. If you want to, you can take them to the nearest hotel or take them to your hotel with you for a night. Girls don't mind and sometimes they might even end up dating with you (happens easily as western guys are considered a huge score for a girl here).
In the end its nothing else than again some religious or "I define what people should be allowed to do!" persons trying to limit the fun people can have. If the girl herself wants to do it, there's no "victims". Hell, there are girls who love having a lot of sex and it's even better for them because they get paid for what they love. Other people really have to start living their own lives and stop thinking "I don't do this, so no one else can do it either!".
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Informative)
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
We could also ask porn sites to move to the .xxx TLD, ask spammers to mark their mails with "[SPAM]" and ask black hat hackers to set an evil bit in all their packets.
The prostitutes will post where their posts will be read the most.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't see the problem with having an adult section.
If it bothers people, those people just should stop going there.
As for kids, just install some nanny software or a proxy and let them learn to use their brains to think of clever ways of getting at porn or find other things to do
Blurring the line (Score:3, Interesting)
What this is doing is blurring the line between casual sex and prostitution. It will make it more difficult legally and personally. Not good.
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Informative)
Don't you remember the girl which messed up the governors life? She became a prostitute in order to become rich very fast. I personally knew a prostitute which owned and rented several apartments.
Some women try to find a rich man just because they want to become rich ASAP. What is the difference with a prostitute then? (except that some of them agree to be exclusive by signing a marriage contract).
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Most prostitutes do it because they are poor. Making it illegal just makes it more dangerous for the woman and ensures pimps take most of the money.
Canada has bizarre laws regarding prostitution. Prostitution is legal. Communicating in public to procure the services of a prostitute is illegal. Running a bawdy house if illegal. Being a pimp is illegal. This means street prostitutes, mainly drug addicts, are poor and abused. "Escorts" who are self employed or work for small companies generally are not abus
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Those girls are poor this is how they live. They don't love sex anymore than you love working.
Sounds like a job. What's wrong with that? We allow people to do all sorts of awful, dangerous things for money, why not sex? Poor working conditions are a case for increased regulation, not prohibition.
There is *no* reason for prostitution to be illegal except for a perverse notion of sexual morality associated with religion. None.
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> We allow people to do all sorts of awful, dangerous things for money, why not sex?
Yeah just like the "President of the USA" job.
1) It's a very dangerous job - nearly 10% of the workers got killed because of their job. Converting to deaths per 100000 that's 9090 killed per 100000, more dangerous than the other dangerous legal jobs I'm aware of (if you know of a more dangerous legal job let me know - space shuttle astronaut? 14 deaths per 300+? ).
2) Some say
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Informative)
After working in the adult entertainment industry on the tech side, let me tell you that you're half-correct. Some girls do it because they're desperate. The other side of it (that you get wrong) is that there are girls who enjoy making $150K+/yr from sex. Hence, the need for a regulated sex industry (see: Amsterdam).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Intentionally spreading a fatal disease gets you jail time [current.com] in Canada.
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If the girl herself wants to do it, there's no "victims".
Oh, that old argument. [umbc.edu]
Look, there are many good arguments for the legalisation of prostitution per se (even for minors, although the person paying for services would then likely be breaking some statutory rape law).
But it's without foundation to bring up the "lots of women want to do it" argument. And "want to do it", whatever the tedious capitalist he-may-be-interned-in-a-factory-but-at-least-he's-not-dying-in-the-fields armchair philosophers will tell you, must not be confused with "is desperate for mone
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
I have not read any evidence that a majority of prostitutes^Wfast-food workers work because they enjoy being prostitutes^Wfast-food workers. Have you?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've read through your post 3 or 4 times to try to work out what point you're trying to make. Possibly:
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
the point was, that people do all kinds of things when they are desperate for money, and they aren't illegal. so why single out prostitution as being somehow worse than the other ones? whether or not they *want* to, they are *willing* to in order to make a lot of money in a very short period of time.
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't equate prostitution with serving fast food. The former carries all sorts of risks, even when it's a licensed and regulated brothel. You think every customer is going to have a HIV and STD test first? Condoms are 100% effective? Sleeping with some disgusting old lard-arse who could never get a real date because you need the money has no psychological ramifications?
Sure, there are high class places where conditions are better, but unless the girl happens to be pretty good looking and lucky enough to land that kind of job they are not going to deal with all that stuff. It is far far different to working in MacDonalds.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a dirty job.
So?
There are people in this world who as part of their jobs have to spend all day surounded by human faeces working sewer maintainance with all the dangers of infections that entails.
There are people who work jobs where they can lose a limb to a saw blade.
Or be crushed in an industrial accident.
I know a girl who had a job where one of her duties was to put down the animals at a lab which used animal testing, think that has no psychological ramifications?
My father at one point worked in a slaughterhouse cleaning the grizzle, blood and brains off the walls and equipment. any psychological ramifications there?
There are high class office jobs where conditions are better, but unless the person happens to be skilled and lucky enough to land that kind of job they're not going to get those.
But sure, if sex is in any way involved then its special and it can't be considered in a reasonable adult manner.
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
How is that different from feeding some disgusting old lard-arse who could never get a real meal because you need the money?
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
There are plenty of jobs that have a similar list of risks. Some are worse.
For example, welding at a shipyard - Do you think they like getting burned everyday? Climbing up a 30 foot ladder to find it's not tied off at the top and one side is a half inch from freefall? Do you think the riggers have actually double checked every single time the crane picks up a huge sheet of steel that passes over your head? Crawling through a disgusting, stinking crawlspace under the floor of a barge while someone might start welding on the same piece of steel that your entire backside is pressed against? Having my safety depending on some dumb ass who couldn't get a job that required knowing how to read or do math? I think your chances are better with the condom.
I'll give you that working at most McDonalds is not nearly as bad, but all McDonalds are not the same.
Crappy McDonalds in crime ridden area- Ever had a gun shoved in your face while getting robbed? Ever been sprayed with mace for just working the drivethrough window? Had a smelly crazy homeless guy cough on you while ordering and try to pee on you when done? Been badly burned by fry grease?
I'm not saying prostitution isn't a crappy way to have to make a living. I'm just saying there are legal jobs that people take that carry a similar level risks and discomforts, and many people have no other choice but to take them.
I'm only talking about those who prostitute themselves for economic reasons. I am not including physically forced prostitution in any of this, that's slavery, and horrible.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And if you don't want to sleep with a disgusting old lard, don't. Who's forcing you? It's the illegal prostitution rings that really force women to do what they don't want to do - they lock the women up in rooms etc. So if prostitution was legal and well regulated it'll be a lot better for the prostitute (
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't equate prostitution with serving fast food. The former carries all sorts of risks, even when it's a licensed and regulated brothel. You think every customer is going to have a HIV and STD test first?
Ok, compare prostitution to steel workers, coal miners, or fishermen. There are lots of dangerous jobs. Either ban them AND prostituion, ban neither, or accept that prostitution is illegal for reasons of sexual morality and not safety.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
How about this simple argument: if person A wants to fuck person B, and person B wants to pay them to do it, who the fuck are you to tell them that they're not allowed to?
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
She's a friend of a friend, and comes over every night around 12:30 (well, AM...). Hell, she's asleep in my bed right now, poor soul! I'm on Slashdot (afterglow?)! If she wants to set up a payment system I might not be averse...
Like most such "sins", if you remove the pseudo-morality involved, the current governmental stance against it doesn't hold up. If you permit and regulate it (like any of the other common vices in this country), I believe that many of the associated problems will disappear, not to mention that you'll increase your tax revenue if all those high-class girls start declaring their currently illicit income.
... and what is not. Sexual repression has been a tradition in the United States since its inception, and I look at the anti-prostitution crowd as being a fading reflection of that.
The Prohibition Effect is very real, and invariably occurs when there is a tremendous demand and significant law-enforcement resources are devoted to restricting the supply. As other posters have pointed out, there are few absolute moral or ethical constraints here: much of it is simply cultural, what is considered acceptable by decades or centuries of tradition
Yes, I understand that prostitution can have negative consequences for those who engage in it, both for the customer and the supplier, and we'd probably be better off as a society if there were no hookers (probably, I'm not going to make an absolute statement there.) But so do many behaviors that people engage in, many of which are perfect legal. In the end forcing prostitution underground simply because some people find it offensive does everyone a disservice.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not commenting on whether I think it's right (I'd sure never consider it a career option), but I don't think it's right to decide for other people.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Why don't you suggest that people should think about the moral implications of paying fast food workers to get them their food?
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, that's definitely a shitty thing to do too. A symbiotic partnership, simple fuck buddy arrangement or even mutually honest one night stand seem far healthier.
But enjoying physically and psychologically harmful working conditions day after day and believing (correctly or otherwise) that there's no way out is likely more harmful than hearing one lie about how pretty your eyes are. And johns ought to ask whether it's okay to pay to support that environment rather than playing the pseudo-libertarian "no physical force => legal => moral" card.
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"Because if my life is shitty, her life should be even shitter."
So you think a prostitutes life would be better if she couldn't get any clients?
really?
It's an unpleasent job which few people are willing to do and for which there is a high demand which as such tends to pay well(unless someone else like a pimp is taking the income).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would put that as "no physical force => moral => legal" actually, with two qualifications: (1) it applies to responsible adults only of course, and (2) physical force can take many forms. For example theft and fraud are forms of physical force. Can you explain what is wrong with it? Either those women have a choice or they do not. If they do, then where is the problem? You are one human being, they are another. You don't have any more right to decide what t
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But enjoying physically and psychologically harmful working conditions day after day and believing (correctly or otherwise) that there's no way out is likely more harmful than hearing one lie about how pretty your eyes are.
Well, I'm not really going to argue with you there. However, like smoking, drinking and recreational drugs (same thing, really), gambling or any other vice, the reality is that a certain subset of the population (any population) is going to engage in them. They create the demand, it will never, ever go away, and every society has to decide how to deal with that. We, of all peoples on this planet, should understand that prohibiting that for which there is a significant demand doesn't work. Not with alcohol,
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
There's one reason why some people call prostitution the oldest profession...
I think the main reason why prostitutes exist is because there is demand for it. And I believe there will always be.
The fact that in today's society it is "morally incorrect" to sell sexual services is just a temporary (in the hundreds of years span) thing.
But even if government would be able to ban all prostitution the only thing that would happen is that the service would become more expensive, and the people who provide the service would have less rights.
However, if prostitution was completely legal, open and accepted then it will only be a matter of calling a private number and safely providing/consuming those service at home.
The fact that some people choose to be prostitutes is because it gives them a certain amount of income for another certain amount of work. Sure, those same persons may be able to change their jobs but that would mean doing more work for less payment.
BTW, I remembered an interview a guy in Mexico made to 2 "male prostitutes" (Gigolos) from Mexico City. The two guys were professionals, one of them was a doctor. When asked why did they decide to prostitute they answered that it was because they earned a high salary doing this job whereas doing their day job was not profitable enough *for their lifestyle*
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Why doesn't anyone just say "I don't care about the welfare of the fast food work as long as I get my food"?
I don't see why you keep singling out prostitution when your arguments apply to most jobs.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
enjoy that special sauce
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about you, but many times that I have sex with a "normal woman" I become somewhat poorer (although usually not 200$). I do admit that the one getting richer is the restaurant/bar and not the woman, so who is the victim here?
P.S. In a magazine in my country they once did a comparison of the price of getting laid between a hooker, one-night stand, steady girlfriend and wife. As you can guess, the hooker and the one-night stand were the cheapest.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
but many times that I have sex with a "normal woman" I become somewhat poorer (although usually not 200$)
Every time I've had sex, it's been a progression of a friendship into a kissy relationship into a fully sexual relationship. I've never targeted anyone - certainly not by buying anything. I've never counted up how much I've spent in some way benefitting that person up to the point I first had sex with them. I've not considered having sex a goal, or the end of anything. It just happens. It's nice but it's not essential.
It's weird to see so many people here talk of sex as the result of an investment. Perhaps well regulated prostitutes would be the moral option for them if it were established that the prostitutes were physically and mentally healthy and had full freedom of choice. Or perhaps they need a fuck buddy. Or friends who will take a tenner and give you a BJ. I'm not sure.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
You're kind of right. Being able to hire people who need the money to do a shitty job is exploitation. But there's a big difference in being fucked by the exploiter figuratively and literally. Sex is intimate and can screw with you worse than the boredom and aching feet (or whatever) that flipping burgers entails. There are similarites between prostitution and other kinds of "wage slavery", but the two are generally in different leagues of fuckeduppedness.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
It'll be interesting to see you justify a single assertion in that post without resorting to religious arguments, or without projecting your own personal moral hangups on the rest of humanity as a whole.
The truth is, prostitution is not a particularly dangerous job when it's kept above-board and regulated by health authorities. This move on Craigslist;s part will instead drive the trade farther underground than it already was.
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Are you saying that sex being more intimate than flipping burgers is a religious argument?
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There's nothing inherent in the sex act that makes it more emotionally damaging than other acts; that's all in your head, based on your society's enforced rules.
OOI, do you deny all applications of the scientific method or just psychology?
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Interesting)
Fastfood work can be just as mentally straining & bad for your body, especially if you're eating where you work because it's cheaper due to your employee discount than fixing food for yourself. If you have anyone else to support or you have flaky hours, you might need another job. Combine the physical nature of the job, the unhealthy environment & food then the mental stress of incompetent or power tripping management, aggressive and selfish customers, anxiety over working so hard yet not having enough money to pay for basic needs & the stigma attached to being a fast-food worker, I could see how it's not a lot better than being a prostitute.
Ultimately it does take a certain mindset to be a prostitute & not all prostitution is equal. Turning tricks under a bridge for $20 so you can go feed your addiction is not the same as someone earning $200 or $300 per visit & does not have an addiction. Also on the outside people will have no clue you're a prostitute, unless you're outed somehow. People will know you work in fast-food and that some how makes you a loser so will be nasty to you while you man the register or they'll heckle you while you're standing at the bus stop after your shift.
In conclusion neither job is healthy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see where you show that prostitution is unhealthy. Sure, street-workers, usually heroin addicts or trafficking victims, that's obviously unhealthy.
But how are the higher class escorts unhealthy? They have sex, for money. Nothing unhealthy in and of itself with that. They almost always use protection, which is a lot more than you can say for a lot of girls you can pickup in a bar for a one-night stand. Escorts are professional, tend to work with security people to ensure their safety, get medica
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If there are no other options, all the ugly girls and lowly educated men would die of starvation.
(1) Prostitutes aren't necessarily "pretty" - don't get your ideas on the sex industry from Western porn sites;
(2) Men have far more employment opportunities. Most societies still overtly discriminate against women, sometimes because they're physically weaker and sometimes just because.
. Yes they are exploited, but how did they get there?
Are they OK now? Just because some uneducated kid is fooled into thinking that prostitution is a lucrative way out of poverty it doesn't mean you get to judge them any differently when they're physically and emotionally broke
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
All the high-profile stories about human trafficking and prostitution slavery, in the end it's only a small minority.
Small comfort if it's your daughter on the milk carton. I don't think we need to stamp out prostitution, but I do think we need to stamp out all forms of slavery. This country probably has relatively little slavery prostitution. Some nations, on the other hand, are known to be quite full of it.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Funny)
Here in Italy, an extremely high percentage of prostitutes are essentially Russian women who are slaves to crime organizations.
And that's just Berlusconi's women!
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Insightful)
Slavery is already illegal, and should be.
Illegal immigration is already, well, illegal, and there are various arguments either way on whether it should be.
These are both entirely orthogonal to the question of whether prostitution should be legalized.
Re:What a stupid argument (Score:4, Insightful)
How many fast-food workers get aids? How many people wanting to run for office have to hide their past flipping burgers? How many fast-food workers are killed by customers? How many fast-food workers are dependent on the turnout of the day for their salary? How many fastfood workers do not get sickdays etc etc (in civilized countries).
How many of the conditions you cite are consequences of the act's illegality, and not of the act itself?
The kind who says it is okay his iPod was made with slave labor because else these people would have just starved.
So who made your iPod?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Comparing prostitution with a normal job
See, there's your problem. How is sex work not a "normal" job?
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you talked to many escorts to come to this conclusion? It really doesn't sound like it.
Have you talked to your average worker in a fast food restaurant or big box store? Unless they're just out of high school, they're miserable.
Stop forcing YOUR morality on others. It's a choice, both by the service provider, and by the customer. One way or another, we're all in the same business. We want something, and we give something for it. So your morality may say that you need to spend money on fancy dinners and expensive trinkets, coming to a climax where a lavish party is thrown because you put a multi-carat diamond on some poor girls finger. It's all down hill from there. Will you cheat on her? Will she divorce you and take half of what you have?
Prostitution, under it's various names, is far more honest. You negotiate the fee for services rendered, and then you each get what you wanted. Simple. The same concerns apply in the interaction with her, or a girl you met elsewhere. Wear a condom, and keep track of your wallet.
They made the choice to go into the industry. Their customers made the choice to get services from the industry. It's simple. I've known a few women who work in the industry, and they refuse the option of taking a "normal" job, for a fraction of the pay and losing flexibility with their life. Those of us who work in an office don't get the choice of saying "I have a headache, I don't want to work today", or "I have other things to do, pay me for Saturday night instead." None of them were forced to do it. Very few look back at a "regular" job with any sort of passion for it.
I won't say that there aren't bad elements in the industry, but if you look at how many corporations work you'll see worse behavior. You have overworked, underpaid disgruntled people wondering if they have a job tomorrow. Will I get fired? Will the company be downsizing? Will the company fold? I've seen a lot of good hard working 9 to 5 people suddenly find themselves without an income, because they came into work, just to find that they didn't have a job any more. Maybe you're independently wealthy, and don't have to worry about such things, but for the rest of the world, we have bills to pay.
Because of people like you, who have forced your morality on others, it's put these working women in danger. Legalization and acceptance of the industry is the only way to remove the bad elements of the industry.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So your morality may say that you need to spend money on fancy dinners and expensive trinkets, coming to a climax where a lavish party is thrown because you put a multi-carat diamond on some poor girls finger. It's all down hill from there. Will you cheat on her? Will she divorce you and take half of what you have?
Of course, some people mature from their early 20s sex-insanity, realize that sex isn't everything, and then actually love the person they get married to, and have a nice life after that. Not everything in life is a direct result of sex.
:)
This really should be obvious on Slashdot, where half of us would rather code than have sex
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you talked to many escorts to come to this conclusion? It really doesn't sound like it.
The "escorts" you're probably thinking of are not representative of the global prostitution industry. I know this is /. and an awful lot of lonely men have paid $200+ for an escort and assume that "talking to an escort" (who you are paying to say what you want to hear) is somehow singular for "data", but it isn't.
Stop forcing YOUR morality on others.
Knee-jerk. Arguing that funding the prostitution industry may be immoral is not forcing anything.
It's a choice, both by the service provider, and by the customer.
All work is free choice to the extent that you also have the options to lie down on the streets and starve or jump off a cliff and die more quickly.
So your morality may say that you need to spend money on fancy dinners and expensive trinkets, coming to a climax where a lavish party is thrown because you put a multi-carat diamond on some poor girls finger. It's all down hill from there. Will you cheat on her? Will she divorce you and take half of what you have?
You are bitter and angry, and it's showing. Not that your bitterness and anger detract from the worth of your argument, but you're not presenting a decent argument anyway. Healthy human relationships are continually symbiotic, not about paying to seduce a woman and then crying because she doesn't give you what you want.
Because of people like you, who have forced your morality on others, it's put these working women in danger. Legalization and acceptance of the industry is the only way to remove the bad elements of the industry.
You're about the 5th poster to assume that I was arguing for the banning of prostitution, even though I started the argument by acknowledging that there are good arguments for legalisation and making clear that "moral" is not the same as "legal".
Prostitution should be legal and well regulated. "Acceptance" is another matter. For example, let's say you're in an evil socialist European state and there's a job opening for a prostitute - should you lose unemployment benefits if you don't take the position? Geeks are so accepting of the scientific method except when it comes to studying humans themselves - in this particular case, no psychologist will argue that the effect of fucking 50 strangers a day is generally as benign as serving 50 burgers a day. But are you arguing that, and what is your extraordinary evidence?
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Talking to escorts about the world of prostitution is like talking to McDonalds CEO about the world of fast food workers. Try talking to the girls down on the low track instead.
Yeah, the same way someone who can't find a job making a living wage and with a future 'chooses' to go to work with McDonalds or Best Buy.
You, and many others answering here, have a seriously rosy view of the world.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Interesting)
But it's without foundation to bring up the "lots of women want to do it" argument. And "want to do it", whatever the tedious capitalist he-may-be-interned-in-a-factory-but-at-least-he's-not-dying-in-the-fields armchair philosophers will tell you, must not be confused with "is desperate for money and willing to do it because there is no viable alternative".
So instead of a situation of a desperate woman being a prostitute to pay the bills, you instead would rather that desperate woman be a prostitute to pay the bills AND be a criminal. :/
That's rather nice of you
Look, we both know the problem is desperation, and that is what needs to be solved.
Clearly neither of us have that solution, nor do the women doing this.
Why make them criminals just because they are already in a fucked up situation?
Because outlawing something does not stop it, especially when you are that desperate already.
If it was simply taxed and regulated like any other legal job, we wouldn't have any of the Other problems we get today with prostitution, and will be making the exact same dent in the desperation problem as now (read None)
Then a lot of those desperate women will not be criminals as well, and might have a better chance of improving their situation without a police record to follow them forever.
Right now it's very hard to help improve any of those peoples lives, as with a criminal record they can't easily do quite a lot of things we take for granted, such as getting a job.
Remove that one little barrier and it becomes that much easier to provide some real help.
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But it's without foundation to bring up the "lots of women want to do it" argument. And "want to do it", whatever the tedious capitalist he-may-be-interned-in-a-factory-but-at-least-he's-not-dying-in-the-fields armchair philosophers will tell you, must not be confused with "is desperate for money and willing to do it because there is no viable alternative".
Why do you think that I go to my job everyday. Take call-outs in the middle of the fucking night when there is two feet of snow on the ground on Christmas (I work in an open pit mine)? It's the money, duh!
I have not read any evidence that a majority of prostitutes work because they enjoy being prostitutes. Have you?
I'm betting that you probably haven't researched it far enough to find out. After ten seconds with Google. [dearcupid.org] Maybe not a majority, but there sure are a LOT of shit jobs out there that pay a lot less!
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
I speak from anecdotal evidence, so I know this does not apply to everyone in the field. There certainly are women who don't really want to do the job, and these people certainly deserve a path out of their professional field, but there are a number of people like that in almost all careers.
You'd be surprised that it doesn't take a big stretch for a woman to get to the 6 figure mark, or at least what would be a 6 figure income if their pay is used as "take home", and we extrapolate what they would be earning if they were paying their proper taxes, etc.
I know one particular former call girl who willingly and knowingly entered into the field of her own free will, and felt more honest about her earnings than when she was working as a computer programmer.
Most people object to prostitution on two grounds: human trafficking, which should be wrong anyways, mistreatment by their pimps, or the dangers presented by clients. Most people who are against prostitution are not against the prostitutes themselves. They see them as "trapped" in a position where they have a high likelihood of harm. Yet, if we legalized it, then human trafficking would still be wrong, mistreatment by their pimps could be handled by police and other governmental authorities, and protection against clients is guaranteed the same way.
In Sweden, prostitution is not illegal, but being a pimp and frequenting a prostitute are illegal. Imagine the wonderful nature of your transaction of: "if you stiff me, I can call the cops, and they'll arrest you, and I walk away." Clients won't screw their prostitutes in this case. The same with pimps. "Go ahead, slap me... I'll call the cops, and they'll haul you away, and I can admit openly that I'm a prostitute, and I won't get taken away."
How about making prostitution a SAFE profession, rather than demanding it be illegal to stop people from doing it? If you're concerned about their health from the sex alone, either physical and/or mental, then when shall we expect an intent to make promiscuity itself illegal?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Most people object to prostitution on two grounds: human trafficking, which should be wrong anyways, mistreatment by their pimps, or the dangers presented by clients. Most people who are against prostitution are not against the prostitutes themselves.
Nope. Sure, they like to argue that they are, but if you actually pay attention to what they're saying they think all prostitution should be destroyed to "stop trafficking and are pushing for laws that make their lives more dangerous.
For example, here in the UK the anti-trafficking groups pushed for a law criminalising sex with women who were "controlled for gain". Sounds good, right? Except it means no more agencies to screen out harassing calls, and no more working with a maid or other person who can call
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Insightful)
Gee, I wonder if you've made up your mind in advance at all? "Stop being a retard who disagrees with me and instead ask a question that I will only allow you to conclude the same as I do without being insulted!" Hey, thanks! If you think that position is wrong, then the onus is on you to explain why.
If your hypothesis that most women are only prostitutes because they are desperate for money and there is no viable alternative is correct, then all you have done is criminalize what even you describe as their only choice to make money. At best, in your world, you stop them from doing the only thing they can do to survive. At worst they do it anyway and are criminals in addition to paupers, with all of the stigma and danger associated with any criminal activity. At least if it were legalized, there could be some protections in place both for the prostitutes and for the Johns. When "hope you don't get beaten and robbed" or "hope your pimp is a nice guy" are your only protections, there's something wrong.
So, the six-figure-a-year celebrity hookers probably want to do it and they're making money hand-over-fist, so I don't see an argument to prevent it from that extreme. The opposite extreme (buying into your argument) is that the women don't really want to do it but have no other choice to survive, making legalizing it a slightly better alternative to a terrible situation that actually has very little to do with prostitution and more to do with hopeless economic conditions. Somewhere in the middle are women who aren't sexual millionaires but either want to do it, don't care either way or don't particularly want to do it and don't need to but consider it easier or faster money than the available alternatives. I'm seeing an entire spectrum where not a single data point would lead me to the conclusion that prostitution should be illegal.
In fact, the only reason I can think of is the one supposed by your question: Imposing my set of morality on other people. My answer to your question about whether or not it is moral to pay for sex is "why the hell should I care?" If it doesn't involve me I don't find it to be any more my business than whether or not your wife or girlfriend (or boyfriend) is kinky in the sack. If it does, then I can exercise my own morality to my own actions and relations -- exactly as it should be. I wouldn't date a hooker, whether it was legal or not. I don't respect the behavior. It doesn't mean I need it to be criminal to prove my moral superiority.
Now, legalizing prostitution isn't simple; it's something that would need to be done carefully to achieve any of the potential benefits and avoid a clusterfuck of potential problems. Very probably other laws would need to be created or changed. But all in all, if "I don't approve of what you're doing with your body" is the best I can come up with to stop you... fuck me. No pun intended.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
ask "Is it moral in general to pay for prostitutes?"
How about asking "Is it moral for me to tell others how to live and what they can and cannot do?" What ever happened to freedom? Freedom of choice and to chose? Just because you don't approve of it doesn't magically make it wrong. Consider that some things you do are no doubt considered morally wrong to others.
Yes, there have been cases of woman being abused/forced into prostitution, but if you look, every job has cases were people have been abused, with a much higher degree of these problems when the job/s
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Is it moral in general to pay for prostitutes?"
Yes, because not paying for prostitutes is theft of their services. Second, the real question is, "Should it be legal to engage in prostitution and pay for the services of the prostitution." That's clearly yes, since as has been pointed out before, there is no harm committed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My opinion is that the concept of prostitution is not bad. A woman (or man) that chooses to go this way as a job is free to do it. Some of them prefer it to work at McDonald's. I know law students that work at prostitution because it's a very high-paying job and the hours are flexible. The problem starts when the prostitutes are not doing it out of their own free will. Many of them are exploited and most of the money is taken by pimps who leave them with petty cash* or hook them on drugs to keep them workin
Guess what? (Score:3, Interesting)
When things are illegal, people are pushed in to them that don't want to be. The activity has to exist at the sidelines and those involved can't get help from the authorities if they need it. The problems, the abuses, happen because it is illegal and thus they have to turn to people like pimps for promotion and protection.
However when it is legal? Not such a problem. Have a look in to the brothels in Nevada some time (you can look at documentaries rather than going there). You find that when it is legal, th
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You've managed to misread my post in so many ways that you may be trolling. Let me break it down like I did to the "other poster":
slashdotters SOL (Score:3, Funny)
How are all us slashdotters supposed to find nude modelling gigs now?
Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)
Some politician says ban this section and it will all go away...
Now the personals section is going to get even more polluted.
Casual Encounters will become the new adult section but it will spill over into the normal sections. Strictly platonic will probably become the "normal" area. If this is the intelligence of state attorney generals then we must have a lot of innocent people in jail.
Re:Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a lot of belief in politics that if we make something illegal, people will stop doing it.
This idea is retarded, and recognizably inconsistent with reality.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They are fully aware that this is not true; but stopping people doing it isn't the objective. That's not even close to being foremost on their minds. Politicians are driven by personal power and political motives. They want to be seen to be "doing something", "being tough" and "sending a strong message".
Due to recent well covered events it's easier to demonstrate my point when discussing drugs. Whilst it obvio
:rolleyes: (Score:5, Insightful)
Prostitution control is about as effective as drug control and gun control.
Then it's very effective (Score:3, Informative)
There, I fixed it! (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the future of the Internet. Corporate censorship at the demand of the loudest group. One by one, sites are going to filter user areas. Then content. Starting with obvious things that few will care about, like prostitution. Slowly, everything is going to be so pasteurized that sites with no filters will be considered criminal organizations.
Look, whatever you think of it is irrelevant, abused or not, the racier parts of the internet are a necessary part of freedom. Draw the line of allowed hosted content straight through what most people find offensive and leave it there.
It may not happen in our lifetime, but if we don't demand full neutrality (for host and carriers), it's going to happen.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Mod parent up.
Stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Someone's not thinking outside the box. They should have just spun off that part of the company and run it from another country with sensible attitudes towards sex (eg, The Netherlands or Belgium), where the US can't touch them.
Out of sight, out of mind (Score:3, Interesting)
As a resident of a country (Score:3, Insightful)
If your simplistic model of the sex industry is that of a cosy contract between customer and vendor you probably haven't been to edge of the world and looked over.
Otherwise you would be perfectly happy for your sons and daughters, brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers to pursue a glittering career in the opportunity-filled world of the sex industry. Perhaps put in a few shifts yourself, to balance your budget in these straitened times.
Or perhaps there is another reason why clients are called "tricks" or "Gingers" in the industry patois.
FINALLY (Score:3, Funny)
Sex for sale is now gone and will never come back.
What is the effect on the workers? (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems unlikely that closing off this route of advertising will do much to discourage prostitution. On the other hand, it will make it harder for women to offer sexual services as independent operators, and will tend to force more of them into exploitive arrangements in which much of their income is taken by "management." So it is a lose for the women, but a big win for the pimps.
Re:WTF man (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Cool story bro time.
Several years ago, in my early twenties, myself and two friends went to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. Drinking in our hotel room before going out on Bourbon St, we thought, heh, lets post on Craigslist and see who is out there. So we posted in the mm4w section (use your imagination for what we wrote). I kid you not, within 30 seconds, we started receiving emails. The first one was from someone who wrote "Since its Mardi Gras, you boys should have no problem finding what you're looking for,
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The person that had to pay for drinks, a dinner, and a movie and didn't even get more than a peck on the cheak and an offer to do it again in a couple nights, in hope that you might get a proper kiss. A few weeks, a dozen hours or more, and a few hundred dollars, and they "might" get lucky...
People like that hate the fact that someone can spend a fraction of that money for copious amounts of sex, and not have to have formed an emotional connection.... And the women like that hate it even mor
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The person that had to pay for drinks, a dinner, and a movie and didn't even get more than a peck on the cheak and an offer to do it again in a couple nights, in hope that you might get a proper kiss. A few weeks, a dozen hours or more, and a few hundred dollars, and they "might" get lucky...
Oh, so the purpose of a date is to get sex, and you're a "victim" if the other person doesn't put out?
You need to review your understanding of human relationships. (Yes, I'm sure you'll point out you're talking about "people/women like that", and not yourself. Mhm.)
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In a society where sex is regarded as a normal and important part of life, no.
In a puritanical religious society where sex is regarded as sinful, yes.
If sex were like, for instance, playing cards -- you're willing, I'm willing, let's do it -- then there would be no need for subterfuges. However, since sex demands such expensive efforts, accepting those efforts and not providing sex is fraud.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People of both genders go on dates for a variety of reasons. You are defining one of those reasons as being bad/not the proper purpose. Eh... guess I don't see it.
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, the victim is the 12-year-old runaway who has sex with countless strangers because her pimp is the only one who keeps her fed, or the 11-year-old girl kidnapped and shipped overseas to be sold into sexual slavery.
The problem is, that's not the only type of prostitution that's illegal. Stop the kidnappers when you can, and get the runaway back to her parents or into foster care.
Leave the adults to do what they want, and tax it and regulate it for safety. If there's a legal market for prostitution that doesn't include some of the worst abuses in the illegal market, the worst abuses will be less tolerated by those doing it legally. They'll report violent pimps, underage girls, kidnapped girls, and johns who hit or rob them much more often if they're not in fear of getting busted themselves.
And no, I am not in favor of prostitution. I've always had enough sex without paying for it, and I don't have a desire to start. I don't think it's the healthiest of activities for the whores or their clients. I'm not one to pry into the sex lives of others on a regular basis, though, and I think it's clear that banning and prosecuting prostitution makes things worse.
If they're going to do it and you can't stop them, make it safer for them to do it. Even people opposed to the practice need to be smart enough to see that banning it does no good.
Legality is not an endorsement by the state or by a town's population. We have legal tobacco products with heavy taxes that pay for press to keep people from smoking and chewing. We teach kids it is dangerous and irresponsible to smoke. Yet it's legal. Legality just means there's no reason for something to be illegal or that the benefits to legality outweigh the benefits to a ban and failed enforcement.
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if prostitution were legal...
Legal and regulated. The illegality of prostitution is only part of the problem with the current state of affairs.
Prostitution carries with it some serious societal issues. Coercion from pimps, poverty, VD, and back-alley abortions have been associated with prostitution for thousands of years. None of these will go away if the laws against soliciting are lifted.
Illegality adds another problem; it forces the business under the rug, leaving hookers essentially without legal recourse - they can be robbed, raped, killed, or otherwise harmed because the perp knows the victim won't go to the cops, or won't be missed.
Legalizing prostitution without regulating it will solve the last problem, but not the rest. Keeping it illegal only removes the problems from public view, and makes the situation worse for those involved. You need to legalize it, while imposing health and safety regulations.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Where exactly do you think the coercion from pimps, poverty, VD, and back-alley abortions come from?
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:5, Informative)
That of course leaves the question of trafficking which is the usual problem raised i.e. does the prostitution industry provide a prime motivation for human trafficing. However there seems to be a significant lack of data supporting this. The Guardian ran an interesting piece [guardian.co.uk] covering this topic. I'm going to quote just the opening paragraph but its well worth a read if you find yourself with a free 10 minutes.
Yes, that doesn't prove that sex workers necessarily enjoy their work. It doesn't prove that other forms of coercion don't exist.But it does frame the issue somewhat differently.
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Thats from the Superfreakenomics article exerpt I cited before.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It works fine for me on the Toronto, Canada Craigslist. Out-call prostitution is legal in Ontario though.
Yes. If you'd bothered to read the article you'd have noticed "The section was shut down on Friday night to all users in the United States, but is still viewable by international users."
Re:Only seems to effect the USA (Score:4, Funny)
If you'd bothered to read the article
You must be new here...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If you'd bothered to read the article
You must be new here...
No, not new. Just forever optimistic :)
Re:And as we all know... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)