China Demands Real Names From Mobile Phone Users 187
itwbennett writes "Starting this month, mobile carriers in China are requiring people who set up new mobile phone accounts to register with their real names as part of a new government measure to reduce anonymity among the country's 800 million mobile users. And within 3 years, the carriers must also register the real identities of all existing users, said China Telecom spokesman Xu Fei. The new policy comes as China has been pushing users to register with their real names online. In August, online gamers had to begin real-name registration under regulations that are meant to protect minors from Internet addiction and 'unhealthy' content."
I predict (Score:2, Offtopic)
The most common name of Chinese children will become Fuk Yu.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Richard Gazinya, here. "Dick" to my friends.
As a high-school freshman, I went by "Ivan Yaganoff". I dated a girl who went by "Phyllis Glass".
We actually did once get a cafeteria monitor to say "Who's Dick Hertz?" At the time, I thought it was the funniest goddamn thing ever in the Universe. Today, of course, I am much more sophisticated, but at the time we cracked up through the rest of the day's classes and straight through to fourth period th
Re: (Score:2)
We actually did once get a cafeteria monitor to say "Who's Dick Hertz?" At the time, I thought it was the funniest goddamn thing ever in the Universe. Today, of course, I am much more sophisticated
I'm sorry, that shit's funny no matter how old you are. And yeah, I'm over 30. Besides, the pranks only get more involved as you get older.
Sophisticated's overrated.
Re: (Score:2)
Today, of course, I am much more sophisticated,
You could have fooled me.
Re: (Score:2)
I have fooled everybody.
Actually "more sophisticated" just means more farting and burping and funny faces are involved.
Kentucky Fried Movie (Score:2)
Isn't this the same in the US? (Score:4, Insightful)
I seem to recall AT&T demanding my social security number when I signed up.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not sure if this is still the case, but you used to be able to buy a prepaid phone with cash.
Re:Isn't this the same in the US? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, this is still the case. You can buy prepaid phones and replenishment cards with cash at a convenience store and then activate or add minutes online without having to provide proof of identity. Paranoid types will do this at an open wi-fi access point to avoid leaving an IP trail. I know TracFone operates this way, but the other carriers may have a similar policy.
Re: (Score:2)
you can call in (from any phone) and register a cash-bought 'burner' (lol).
they will ask you for your name. I said 'sorry, I don't want to give that'. and he said (tracphone, btw) 'well, I need SOMETHING to call you by. make up a name'.
I laughed.
(no, I didn't start up with 'you can call me ray, or you can call me jay ...'. the guy in india might actually BE 'jay' and not quite get the joke.)
Re: (Score:2)
How do you add minutes online anonymously - insert cash into the CD drive? At some point you are asked for a credit card number, right?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You can buy cards with voucher codes at convenience stores for cash, then put the voucher codes in online.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
I seem to recall AT&T demanding my social security number when I signed up
That's probably because they run a credit check on you since you're entering into a contract with them and they typically subsidize your phone price.
I'm not sure, but I believe you can get a prepaid phone without a social or anything like that. And since most phones in China run on the pre-paid model, there's no need to keep track of who people actually are.
Re:Isn't this the same in the US? (Score:5, Insightful)
And you just gave it to them? No, they do not have the right to demand your SSN, and you are under no obligation to provide it to acquire a cellphone. Laws in some states even make this practice illegal, assuming that they would not back down on the demand (if they back down, no problem, they can ask, they are just required to bow to your refusal).
Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. (Score:5, Informative)
Under federal law (or more specifically, the law is tacit on the subject that) ANYONE may ask that you provide a social security number - and use it as an identification number for you - except the government. Now, that comes with some caveats. You are not required to give them your SSN, but in that case they are allowed to deny you their services based on your refusal.
Your state laws may have other provisions, but normally the alternative is that you must give them enough personal identification to uniquely identify you and your entire financial history...which is really the only reason not to give out your SSN. With the information they have, just about anyone can get your SSN for $10.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
CA and NY at least both have SSN disclosure laws that would prevent this (with some specific exemptions that don't include cell carriers).
Re: (Score:2)
Wouldn't the SSN just be part of the information they get back when running a credit check on you?
Re: (Score:2)
Wouldn't the SSN just be part of the information they get back when running a credit check on you?
They can make that assumption if they wish.
Of course, if you have a common name and someone else with said name has poor credit, they can also assume you as the same person and deny you services.
However in reality cellular carriers only even try asking for your SSN if they will be extending some form of credit to you, usually in the form of loaning you a phone for no money up front in exchange for charging you for that phone (and then some) over the course of your contract.
If you pay for your phone out righ
Re: (Score:2)
Thats funny, its illegal to use a social security number for any purpose other than taxes or social security benefits.
Plenty of places do this (Score:2)
Seem to recall having an issue getting a SIM in England, but it's been a while...
What surprises me is that China wasn't /already/ doing this.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly: Chine is now as oppressive as:
Australia, France, Germany, Japan, Norway and Switzerland
Re: (Score:2)
i was about to hit the same topic. the same fact surprised me as well when i was visiting japan.
Re: (Score:2)
It's been proposed in the US legislature, too. It just hasn't been passed and signed into law yet.
Public phones (Score:2)
I wonder if Governments will start to clamp down on anonymous use of public phones, by requiring credit cards or pre paid cards with ID.
Re: (Score:2)
I think they will just let public pay phones fade away, they can hardly get much use nowadays when everyone has a mobile anyway, it will be easy enough to say they are uneconomic.
How can this be enforced? (Score:2)
So Obi-Wan has a private transaction and sells his phone to Skywalker. Skywalker then calls the service provider and tells him "his" address (i.e. Obi-Wan's for all the provider knows) has changed from 4523782378 First Street to 4361278 7th Avenue (where Skywalker in fact lives). How does the Gesta^H^H^H government know the phone has moved to Skywalker's hands now?
Anyway, bless the internet and chat. Fat chance trying to enforce traceability with that. Since any fool can set up OpenFire on his own cheap
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What you are proposing would be breaking the law. Like any law, people will follow it if they think they may be punished for breaking it. It would be up to China to enforce this if they think it is important.
In the case of India, when someone registers a SIM card he can expect a government official to visit his home and verify his identity shortly after the purchase (India is super paranoid after the Mumbai terrorists used cell phones to coordinate their attacks). I believe officials can visit your register
Re: (Score:2)
I believe officials can visit your registered address anytime after that to make sure you haven't sold the card. If India can enforce a law like this, I'm sure China can.
Obi-Wan: "The phone is still in my possession. I am not the one you are looking for."
Re: (Score:2)
Obi-Wan: "The phone is still in my possession. I am not the one you are looking for."
These are not the Droids you are seeking. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Re: (Score:2)
works fine in Germany (Score:3, Interesting)
You have a government issued ID with a government-issued ID number. Phone companies are required to collect this information and verify it with the government. They also generally require banking information for billing purposes, and make sure that that's consistent with the registered user of the phone as well. Yes, you can try to privately sell a SIM card registered under your name to someone else and manage to get by with prepaid cards. But that's a risky thing to do, because if the phone is used for
Re: (Score:2)
You have a government issued ID with a government-issued ID number. Phone companies are required to collect this information and verify it with the government. They also generally require banking information for billing purposes, and make sure that that's consistent with the registered user of the phone as well. Yes, you can try to privately sell a SIM card registered under your name to someone else and manage to get by with prepaid cards. But that's a risky thing to do, because if the phone is used for some illicit purpose, the police will come to you. Even if you can prove you didn't do the crime, intending to get around registration requirements itself may cause trouble. There are some ways around this (e.g. roaming SIM cards), but most people are fully registered and tracked.
As for the Internet, Internet connections are also registered with the government under your name, and your provider is required to keep a record of all your connections, and it's illegal to set up open access points. Of course, it's easier to communicate clandestinely with Internet protocols, including going through foreign proxies, but if you try, that itself is often detectable and suspicious.
Where Germany wins over a place like Saudi Arabia is that they generally use all this tracking and surveillance only against actual crimes, although it's probably only a matter of time until those protections erode and governments will start using it for political purposes. Some of the people responsible for the laws and technology had plenty of experience from fascist and communist regimes.
Wow. That is just difficult to imagine, especially for Germany. I'm trying really hard not to Godwin this discussion, but... Doesn't that all sound a bit fascist? The population is numbered, registered, monitored, and tracked?
Re: (Score:2)
Wow. That is just difficult to imagine, especially for Germany. I'm trying really hard not to Godwin this discussion, but... Doesn't that all sound a bit fascist? The population is numbered, registered, monitored, and tracked?
yes, it's fucking sad, and at the same time the government is trying to attack fb, google et al for privacy invasion, somehow making the population feel cared about.
Well, cared-about we are!
Think electronic id-cards and passports (rfid with picture and fingerprints etc) that you are supposed to also use for banking and other online activities, like buying stuff and logging into forums.
Think all number-plates on highways being scanned (system developed initially to toll heavy vehicles) and info on all car mo
Re: (Score:2)
Whats that thing called an SSN meant to do in America?
Act as a State Security Number?
Is it your passport number for getting access to government services?
Or is it some other form of Unique Personal Identifier?
Re: (Score:2)
Do you think that it's that different here in the States?
Yes, it really is. In Germany, every resident must register his physical home addresses with the government, and service providers need to verify accurate personal information. They also need to store connection information. In the US, there is no requirement to register your home address with the government, and ISPs don't communicate with the government about your identity or location.
That means that in the US, you can walk into a store, buy a mob
Re:works fine in Germany (Score:5, Funny)
Where Germany wins over a place like Saudi Arabia
wait, did you just say that? "hey, at least we're not as bad as the saudis".
Re: (Score:2)
Well, it's more like "at least they are not as bad as the Saudis".
Re: (Score:2)
Crime is a funny concept. When you attack an innocent person and injure them, that's a crime. When you steal from someone who has worked hard for their possessions and it's not saving you from absolute starvation, that's a crime. However, if your government is committing crimes against you is it really criminal to protect yourself?
Unusual? (Score:3, Interesting)
We have had to show photo id for as long as I can remember in Austraila when getting a new phone or sim card.
There really isn't that much seperating "us" and the "bad" guys these days except we are "us".
Re:Unusual? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Unusual? (Score:4, Informative)
Well it seems like Australia actually has some of the most draconian laws in the "western" world concerning things like the internet, anonymity, porn, censorship and so on. And yes, I know Australia isn't in the west.
We have our moments [theage.com.au]
Re: (Score:2)
No way. They may be more 'draconian' (by your definition) than in the US, but they are generally less so than most of the EU. Australia in almost every way (cultural, government, etc.) really is a middle ground between Europe and the US in my experience.
For instance:
- Requiring ID to get a prepaid SIM card is standard in Australia, but also in most of Europe. I don't see this as particularly 'scary'. You are signing up for a company's services. They need to know who you are (even prepaid users have an 'acco
Re: (Score:2)
~ photo id, bank card, medicare card, bank statement
It started with banking and other databases for pensions ect.
Australia embraced public, 24/7 database searches to combat fraud in the mid 1980's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Transaction_Reports_and_Analysis_Centre [wikipedia.org]
There was chatter from the feds about doing the same for ISP contracts too.
Long term the idea is instant ip seen on net to real name for any cleared Australian police/fed i
Re: (Score:2)
I've had to show 3 forms of ID to get a prepaid SIM both times I've done so in Australia.
Re: (Score:2)
Doesn't have to be photo id; if you pay for it by credit card that's good enough.
But I agree that the law is oppressive and needs to be repealed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
We have had to show photo id for as long as I can remember in Austraila when getting a new phone or sim card.
A photo-id is required for buying SIM cards in Italy but not for phones unless they contain a SIM card, which is not always the case here.
India already does that and more (Score:2)
Last year, when I visited India, the world's largest democracy, I tried to buy a pre-paid SIM card. They asked me for a photo, proof of address (like my hotel's address) and a photocopy of my passport. It seems it's standard in India since the Mumbai attack.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
blame cell phone bombs on needing real names to ge (Score:2)
blame cell phone bombs on needing real names to get a phone.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:India already does that and more (Score:4, Insightful)
I like how people always feel like they have to cite that India is the world's largest democracy, as if that amounts to a hill of beans. Does doing terribly stupid, ineffective, and seemingly oppressive things magically become OK just because some plurality of the people managed to strategically vote their party into a leading position? I think not. At least the Communist Party in China doesn't have to go through the indignity of lying about their intentions and motivations.
Re: (Score:2)
In reaction to SCAMS (Score:2, Informative)
Speaking as an expat who has been living in China for almost 5 years, this is being SOLD as a reaction to phone scams. It is a general rule that when you deal with real estate agents, art agents and others, do not give them your phone number or you will be bombarded with spam text messages at least 10-15 times a day. On top of this, there is an almost daily report of some crime ring scamming people for money by sending them text messages, or calling them while impersonating someone/some agency they know and
Good! (Score:5, Interesting)
Now when they try to push the same legislation thru here in the USA all it will take is a quick comparison to COMMUNIST CHINA to get the politicians to vehemently oppose it....
Re: (Score:2)
Now when they try to push the same legislation thru here in the USA all it will take is a quick comparison to COMMUNIST CHINA to get the politicians to vehemently oppose it....
Until it's attached as a rider to some bill that otherwise has overwhelming support. Hey, it worked for the Internet Kill Switch and so many other pieces of bad legislation...
It's not like the elected politicians actually read the bills they vote on anyway. They're far too important for such trivial and mundane tasks. They have people for that!
Re: (Score:2)
You're too late.
All US cell companies require ID for a "credit check" that also verifies the ID of whomever is going to pay the bill. They've got your name, SSN, and home address.
Sure, there's prepaid that can be bought with cash, and I know the research into this was done by Ryan Seacrest, Guilana Ransic and the rest of the E! News team, but it doesn't make it any less true. Buy too many minutes with cash only and don't pay with a credit or debit card at all, and they'll raise prices and tap the phone.
Good... (Score:2)
Now if only registrars did the same when selling domain names...
As seen on (Mexican) tv! (Score:5, Informative)
At the end they didn't because too many people didn't register (in the order of millions) and about a month after the deadline the government simply desisted on the whole idea, calling it a "bad idea" and claiming that it was badly implemented.
Too bad the Chinese can't count on that happening, though.
Re: (Score:2)
Some of the German carriers do this as well, while I was visiting I made an account, and gave them my true identity...James Bond. ;-)
Big Turn (Score:2)
Be glad it's just your name (Score:2)
In South Africa there's RICA - the Regulation of Interception of Communications Act - that requires cellphone users to register every SIM card with all their details, including proof of ID and residence, before the end of the year (IIRC) or be cut off.
The likelihood of reducing crime versus feeding a booming black market for SIMs is left as an exercise for the reader.
Re: (Score:2)
Watching to see what's going to happen on 1 Jan when the phone co's get told to cut off 85% of their revenue stream...
So in the next Jason Bourne movie (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
France does this too (Score:2)
I bought a SIM card in France and it came with an envelope into which I was to deposit a copy of my identity papers. The instructions claimed that the card would stop working 14 days after activation unless the papers were received.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I want someone else to try it first (Score:2)
Actually, I'm on the fence about this one. As a frequent visitor of many hobby forums, I've noticed the amount of trolling has increased exponentially over the years. It has progressed very badly for some online communities. If all you visit is Slashdot, be thankful of the civility that occurs here.
I don't buy into the doom and gloom of government oppression that goes along with real name registration, nor do I buy into "the net needs anonymity". Seriously, look at 4chan, our glaring symbol of internet anon
number plea-uz (Score:2)
Re:Wow.. these kids are pretty trusting... (Score:4, Insightful)
Or, they know better than to object publicly. Or the news agency made sure to print only comments favorable to the policy -- a practice not, alas, restricted to China.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
In reality they probably don't even exist. Why go out on the street to get comments on something, especially if you know everyone is too scared to give you anything but the party line anyways?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If so, then they learned it from the USA which learned it from Prussia which learned it from India's training for the underclasses of the Hindu caste system. The original founders of the USA system used to be quite open about this soon after the Industrial Revolution. Their biggest fears were that overproduction caused by too many independent American entrepreneurers might make them take heavy losses on their massive investments in i
Re: (Score:2)
"I think it will be more secure and the carriers will be able to track and store my information", said Li Junru, speaking slowly and clearly into the nearby potted plant.
There. Fixd it for you.
Re: (Score:2)
"I think it will be more secure and the carriers will be able to track and store my information", said Li Junru, speaking slowly and clearly into the nearby potted plant.
There. Fixd it for you.
Physician, heal thyself. 8^)
Re:Nothing new... (Score:5, Insightful)
India has been doing this for years. It's not possible to get a sim card without a valid 'proof' of your identity. It's another matter that if the terrorists really want to get a sim card, this requirement wont stop them - as it's very easy to get forged documents.
If all terrorism disappeared tomorrow never to reappear in any form whatsoever, governments everywhere would mourn its passing.
Re:Nothing new... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
False, they'll just define something else as terrorism.
No offense, but "definition of 'any form' fail". Not that I don't appreciate your general point. Just that I carefully worded my post to account for it. You're absolutely right thought that this is the mentality with which you are dealing.
Re: (Score:2)
It's a never-ending cycle, they just need an excuse, any excuse will do.
Re: (Score:2)
Terrorism is already sufficiently vaguely defined [quaker.org.uk] to allow them to go after a lot of people other than those the public thinks of as terrorists:
Anyway, to (roughly) quote Yes Minister, terrorism is an irregular noun:
I am a freedom fighter, you are a guerilla, he is a terrorist.
Mrs Thatcher call Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Given current legal definitions many much admired historical figures could be classified as terrorists.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Mrs Thatcher call Nelson Mandela a terrorist. Given current legal definitions many much admired historical figures could be classified as terrorists.
Nah, terrorists try and fail. Those who succeed become heroes.
Re: (Score:2)
If all terrorism disappeared tomorrow never to reappear in any form whatsoever, governments everywhere would mourn its passing.
If a government is mourning its passing, not all terrorism has disappeared.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Nothing new... (Score:5, Insightful)
Requiring it has been required in Norway for a while.
This is the direct result of people abusing the system by getting pre-paid phones and being cockbags with them. Now you cant get anonymous phones.
Personally I do not have an issue with this. While I love privacy I also think that at some point you need to have a certain amount of accountability. Being called up at 4 in the morning by some assbag pretending to be a customer at work.... not amusing.... not at all....
Then again, almost nobody opt out of the cellular phone registry here, so if I have a phone number or a name I can find the other. Their street address is also in this system.
Anyone can query it at sites like Gulesider.no ("yellowpages").
If you dont want people to know who you are, then dont call them :p
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like you're just a moron that doesn't understand words such as what unlimited means. When you put restrictions on amounts then it's no longer unlimited. If you can't understand this basic fact and why people get angry at false advertisement then please don't comment in the future.
Re: (Score:2)
That does not mean you should because ISPs are tired of a tiny minority of users using half their bandwidth and incurring half the maintainence costs, and if this continues they will institute caps on everyone and people won't be free to use a lot of bandwidth now and then anymore, all because a handful of
Re: (Score:2)
"But my name really is Dogg6969! My parents loved animals... a lot."
Re: (Score:2)
South Africa passed a law along the same lines last year - requiring all cellphone users to present not only proof of identity but proof of residential address (it's known as the RICA law) a similiar law (FICA) has been in place for bank accounts for several years.
Both laws are in theory supposed to help combat crime (make it harder for criminals to get false bank accounts to store their profits and such) - and because of the size of our crime laws South Africans frankly don't seem to CARE about privacy. Th
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Passing laws that can be easily broken and will be regularly broken, and only bothering to enforce them when it suits the government's whims is corruption.
Re: (Score:2)
the hong kong office of my company as 80 people in it' IT department. no lie, 50+ of them have the same name.
I think Chinese names are a little bit more diverse than that.
Re: (Score:2)
In China, some surnames are very common, but the possibilities for first name are virtually endless. There is not a finite list that most people choose from like in the West (at least the part of 'West' I know). A lot of people share the same surname, but to share the same name completely is very rare. Because of that, it is much more frequent to use the complete name of someone.
Additionally, the system will of course use Chinese characters, not the simplified romanisation used in English press articles and
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, but I doubt that all of the 50 people live at the same address, have the same bank account and were born on the same day. I would assume that the registration would involve these additional pieces of information.
Re: (Score:2)
In common law countries (i.e. Canada and most of US) a person can have however many names they wish, as long as the names are not used for fraudulent purposes.
Re: (Score:2)
So you just call yourself "Mike Ockissore" living at "666 Fucktard Avenue, Twatsville, Ontario" and they let you have the phone?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why not? It's easy enough to get a fake copy of anything else from China.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's too bad all the innocent people have to be punished without a trial for something to prevent crime. That's especially true since it won't prevent crime, and only may make it easier to prosecute criminals after the crime is committed. In fact, it will likely cause more crime, like armed robbery of people with cell phones so the crooks have phones that aren't tracked to them.