Amazon Fights For Privacy of Customer Records 272
suraj.sun notes a CNET article on Amazon's lawsuit against North Carolina on the grounds that the state is trying to violate the privacy and First Amendment rights of Amazon's customers. "Amazon.com filed a lawsuit on Monday to fend off a sweeping demand from North Carolina's tax collectors: [for] detailed records including names and addresses of customers and information about exactly what they had purchased. ... North Carolina's Department of Revenue had ordered the online retailer to provide full details on nearly 50 million purchases made by state residents between 2003 and 2010. Because Amazon has no offices or warehouses in North Carolina, it's not required to collect the [state's] 5.75 percent sales tax on shipments, although tax collectors have reminded residents that what's known as a use tax applies on anything 'purchased or received' through the mail." Amazon is arguing that the records of what books, music, and videos its customers bought deserve enhanced protection.
All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:5, Funny)
Sales tax!? Bah, if you give up schools and paved roads, you can do without it entirely.
We do!
Oooohh!!! (Score:5, Funny)
I think that's my first first-post in 13 years of Slashdot!
*wipes away tear*
(And to you damn kids with mod points who want to mark this off-topic, give an old man a break... Some day you'll be old, too!)
(Oh, and get off my lawn.)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I think my state (Massachusetts) tried to sue a tire company in NH for this same info, and eventually lost (could be mistaken, it was a year or two ago)...precedent?
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:5, Informative)
Sullivan Tire. The MA SJC shot down the attempt, so I don't think it's much of a precedent. NH did pay close attention to this, various public officials said they would fight this matter to the end.
http://salestaxbuzz.org/2009/08/26/live-fee-or-die-vs-taxachusetts-how-story-ends/ [salestaxbuzz.org]
There was a slight difference. Sullivan actually had some stores in MA. I think MA was trying to use that fact to exert pressure on the chain to supply info on sales that took place in other states.
Reminds me of way back when MA used to send state police to NH to stake out the parking lots of liquor stores. They'd record MA license plates and radio cops along the border to pull those vehicles over for not paying tax on the alcohol they purchased. NH didn't want to lose the sales, so they sent out our own state troopers to remove the MA police.
The fun continues. Not too long ago a MA state rep was photographed at a liquor store in NH buying alcohol. The ironic thing was that he had just voted on increasing the liquor tax in MA. No laws broken, but it seemed a bit unethical to many. "Do as I say, not as I do."
Re: (Score:2)
The fun continues. Not too long ago a MA state rep was photographed at a liquor store in NH buying alcohol. The ironic thing was that he had just voted on increasing the liquor tax in MA. No laws broken, but it seemed a bit unethical to many. "Do as I say, not as I do."
No laws broken as long as he paid the 6.25% use tax on his state tax return. MA has the same tax laws as NC in the article. Residents have to voluntarily pay the use tax on "foreign" purchases. You think the state rep was going to do that?
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:4, Funny)
[...] Residents have to voluntarily pay the use tax on "foreign" purchases. You think the state rep was going to do that?
Of course he was. That's what his little black book contained: records of out-of-state purchases, disguised as the names and phone numbers of loose women.
Re: (Score:2)
If I'm not mistaken, the alcohol tax is relatively new in Mass. (2009.) I do remember Mass. posting state troopers at New Hampshire fireworks stores. They would write down plate numbers and contact troopers on the Mass. side of the border who would pull them over once they got into Mass. It was kind of obnoxious how NH fireworks stores would advertise in Mass. I vaguely remember a large fireworks sign off of I495 a few years ago.
I think raising the sales tax was definitely a boon to NH retail, though. I kno
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:4, Funny)
The key to stopping this kind of boarding hopping is to take a note from the west coast, and make your states bigger.. I mean sure, in vancover, WA, they hop over the river, and buy things in portland tax free, but thats just a small percentage of the population. Now, you guys just gotta have some mergers and aquisitions, and combine some states, so its more than a 20 min drive to the next state. Seriously, the western states have counties bigger than you easterners.. Of course, out west, they tried to do the opposite, and tried to form the State of Jefferson by carving out a piece of northern CA, southern OR, and a bit of Nevada.. (google it) but put it on hold when WW2 started.
ps. my old county had a land area bigger than most eastern states, and only 4 cops per shift to patrol it... No wonder they are a little more pro-gun out there..
Re: (Score:2)
Awesome story, thanks!
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:4, Insightful)
The states are going after the wrong companies in trying to collect data for assessing use taxes. I get that they're going after the big fish like Amazon in an attempt to convince smaller retailers to comply of their own accord, but that still means collecting data from tens if not hundreds of thousands of sources. And given decisions like the one you referenced, they're not likely to get anywhere near 100% reporting from retailers, especially when states have a vested interest in protecting the rights of their own businesses...after all, more online vendors located in their own state means more tax revenues from those businesses.
The much simpler solution would be to deal with the credit card companies. There's relatively few of them and they've got data on nearly every out-of-state transaction. What they don't have is a breakdown of the transaction including items purchased and shipping costs, but it's enough to know whether taxes should have been collected or whether the resident should be declaring use taxes. Using data from the credit card companies, the states can come close enough to decide whether the resident has been truthful in his or her use tax reporting and whether or not the resident should be selected for audit.
And the credit card companies should be easier to deal with since they can likely be enticed or threatened by possible legislation governing how they do business in the state (i.e. personal bankruptcy laws, credit card terms disclosure, limits on excessive fees, etc.)
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:5, Funny)
Sales tax!? Bah, if you give up schools and paved roads, you can do without it entirely.
We do!
NC's government is so corrupt, we're currently giving up schools and paved roads even *with* the sales tax.
On the other hand (Score:5, Interesting)
We're talking about the most expensive government in the entire history of centralized power. To claim that lack of revenue is a problem is utterly laughable. With the trillions of dollars spent by the US government every year, we should be living in a utopia by now. But we're not. We're far from it.
Clearly, the problem is where the money goes, not lack of it. In fact, it could be argued that too much money is the problem. We ought to support any measure which keeps money out of the hands of the power elite, because common sense tells us that at the very least, they have way, way too much of it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Clearly, the problem is where the money goes, not lack of it. In fact, it could be argued that too much money is the problem. We ought to support any measure which keeps money out of the hands of the power elite, because common sense tells us that at the very least, they have way, way too much of it.
I'm not a libertarian, nor conservative, I actually am a lefty bordering on socialist, and I somewhat agree with your statement. I live in Arizona, a state that recently decided to close down most of their park
Property taxes fund the majority of schools (Score:4, Interesting)
and many have specific taxes aimed at roads.
Wait till the majority finds out how plush federal, state, local, and school, retirements are and how much of a debt bomb we have coming up funding programs that would cause so much angst if there were in the private areas, especially those bailed out.
I know you might have tried to be witty, but when push comes to shove you can guarantee that three areas will be cut to make the pain unbearable
1. Schools
2. Police
3. Fire
Politicians know what buttons to push. Look at NJ for what uncontrolled spending does to a state and the actions needed to fix it.
Re:Property taxes fund the majority of schools (Score:5, Interesting)
Posting AC. As a Federal employee, I can tell you that our retirement is not "plush" and hasn't been since CSRS went away. Now we have a small (reasonable) pension and a 401(k)-like account called a TSP that has a small match (5%).
Given that as an attorney I make far less with the government what I would in the private sector, yet I go to work every day happily, believing in what I do, and working hard, my retirement benefits are perfectly reasonable.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
State employee here.
Most young people I work with are pretty much only here for the benefits. If I stick with the State, I'll have made anywhere from 20-100% less than my peers (depending on factors like location and willingness to travel) for the course of my career, I've been 4 years now without a raise, despite being a dedicated and productive employee (I did no programming when I started, and now I am, yet I'm still making the same salary). I've been with the State for 10 years now, and of those 10 year
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been 4 years now without a raise, despite being a dedicated and productive employee (I did no programming when I started, and now I am, yet I'm still making the same salary). I've been with the State for 10 years now, and of those 10 years, the only raises I've seen that weren't from me changing jobs were ~3% COL increases, which has happened 4 times. That's pretty crummy, considering the absolutely insane amount of growth the state saw over the past decade.
Welcome to the real world son, I've worked at my current job for 3 years, seen one promotion and a job change, and not a dime of extra pay - no COL, no nothing. I even saw a 5% cut when the economy went south. All that, and relatively speaking I have a good, secure job.
I'd be pretty happy with your 12% raises in the current economic climate.
Very few private companies have plush retirements that match State retirements. Of those that did have them, like GM, they've been getting rid of them.
My last employe
Re:Property taxes fund the majority of schools (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd say FERS is fairly generous compared to a private employer. I'm a GS-14 and if I was to retire with 40 years of service I would get 44% of my 3 year average high salary, which would be roughly 61k a year in pension on top of TSP. You can also continue FEHB as well, assuming you have at least 5 years of service, though I am unsure if you are required to pay the entire portion or not.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Disclaimer: I grew up in NH.
And Tax-achusetts is doing soooo well with it's superior roads and schools. Must be something up when the only visible tax is property tax, and the visible use of taxes (roads and schools) are doing better. Or that with no sales taxes, the malls just over the boarder have more cars with Mass plates than NH (even with the price increase that comes with passing property taxes on to the consumer). The Pheasant Lane mall is mostly in Tyngsboro, but the main office is in Nashua, an
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Disclaimer: I grew up in NH.
And Tax-achusetts is doing soooo well with it's superior roads and schools.
Some of us here like potholes and unmarked one-way roads. Makes driving here a challenge, and by nature makes us all better drivers.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:All these states should be like New Hampshire (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Sales tax!? Bah, if you give up schools and paved roads, you can do without it entirely.
I live in California. We gave up on schools and paved roads a long time ago, you insensitive clod!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It seems like the states with the lowest tax base got it figured out..strange.
Yes, it's called stealing money from California and other populous states. California gives more to the Federal government than it gets back. Those poor-ass states get more than they give. So the state where most of the people live (at least, more than any other state) and where most of the miles are driven (likewise) has the shittiest roads. Of course, there's plenty of corruption in California, but that doesn't set it apart from any other state.
Re: (Score:2)
I think Arizona would give California a run for the money on the shittiest roads. I have to get the alignment reset on my S2000 about 2x a year here. Avoiding wheel swallowing potholes is a full time occupation, and in the 7 years I have been here, my wife and I have had 5 windshields replaced due to rock's kicked up.
Compared to California, where I lived for 38 years, and drove for 22 of them, I never replaced or repaired a windshield...
Re: (Score:2)
I've never had to replace a windshield either, but virtually everyone I know has. YMMV, I guess. I don't tailgate dump trucks... or even get particularly close to them until I have a chance to pass. And these days, I might as well be driving a dump truck, with a F250 4x4 lifted 4" :p
Re: (Score:2)
Don't worry, my critters in AZ are trying really hard to test this theory and follow your example. (although, they are slashing education budgets first).
This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:3, Interesting)
Interstate trade regulation is one of the few enumerated responsibilities that the American government has. Its role is to step in to solve precisely this type of dispute. This would be a grand opportunity to decide once and for all whether internet purchases can be practically taxed, or whether the whole of interstate commerce law is a sham.
North Carolina shouldn't be demanding this type of information from Amazon, but the citizens of NC shouldn't be skirting the law and avoiding paying taxes either.
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
NC is seeking the purchase records in an investigation of use-tax evasion by purchasers within NC. Most states don't bother trying to enforce this due to these sort of difficulties, but they have legitimate cause to do so.
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite, though the distinction is sometimes subtle. If use tax applied only to goods purchased across state lines, then you would be correct that it would be a tariff between states and unconstitutional. However, it applies generally to any transaction where the seller is not obligated to collect sales tax on behalf of the state. This is irrespective of whether the seller is in or out-of state. If I sell my stamp collection to my neighbor for $500, I am not collecting sales tax on that transaction, and my neighbor should report that and pay use-tax on his state return. It doesn't matter if he boutght it from me, or from someone out of state. His obligation would be the same.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But I ALREADY paid sales tax on those stamps. What right does the state think it has to tax the sale AGAIN? THIS is what I really have a problem with.
Re: (Score:2)
But I ALREADY paid sales tax on those stamps. What right does the state think it has to tax the sale AGAIN? THIS is what I really have a problem with.
I don't know about other states, but in MA, you count any sales tax paid as a credit against the use tax. So if you purchase something in New York and pay sales tax, you don't have to pay use tax on it when you bring it home. If you purchase something online from Dell and pay sales tax, you don't have to pay use tax when you use it at home. If you purchase something from Amazon (which doesn't charge sales tax), you are obligated to pay use tax on it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose two parties privately sell an item in one state and then the new owner transports the item to a second state. He uses the item in the second state. Tax is paid in the first state. The tax is paid on the transaction not on the use. So how can the state say with a straight face that this is a "use tax"? It's clearly linguistic gymnastics to circumvent the commerce clause.
Re: (Score:2)
A point this fine is properly the domain of an accountant or tax lawyer practicing in the states in question, but generally the user should pay use tax the State B in which the item is used, and if State A attempts to tax it the owner can show them his paid tax reciept from State B.
Re: (Score:2)
Various states specific rules are, as they say, all over the map. Neither NC, nor my home state have any minimum-dollar-amount threshold in place, at least not that I can find. It's just not worth the State's time and effort to pursue enforcement below a certain scale. Other states give residents the option to pay a small sum based on income as an estimated use-tax covering any untaxed-purchases valued under $1000 or so. YMMV.
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:4, Informative)
What isn't touched on in the article is that the NC state government is extremely corrupt in dealings with money. We already have the highest state income tax, sales tax, gas tax, property taxes and insurance rates in the region. Honestly, about 45% of my income goes to the above mentioned things. The rest go for cell phone (taxed), car payment (taxed), dog (taxed)... you see where this is going. Our idiot governor keeps making trips to Hollywood and China, trying to bring jobs to the state (really?); all she's doing is blowing $100k everytime she takes a trip like that. Amazon was the only way I could afford my text books when I was in college, seeing as how the STATE college charged 130% of the list price in their bookstore. NC needs to learn to make do with all the money they rob from their residents without taxing us on something else.
Re: (Score:2)
Fix -what- locally? Demand smaller gov't, and less taxes? Done!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Fix -what- locally? Demand smaller gov't, and less taxes? Done!
That really worked well during Bush's 8 years, didn't it?
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you'll find that many Tea Partiers are just as angry about the Bush era as the liberals are. Some certainly would like to revert back to Bush era government, but as with any political group the membership represents a spectrum of beliefs.
The real tea party movement lacks strong consolidated leadership by design, its one of the things that the movement pushes for in government. The problem is that allows many of the fringe members and rallies to be co-opted by traditional conservatives who like to think of themselves as leading a patriotic charge in the name of the people. People like Sarah Palin and other fox-news bobbleheads can easily step in because there is no single charismatic figure there to keep them out. This is unfortunate, because in the minds of outsiders it paints tea partiers as gun nut ultra conservatives that want to send another Republican to the white house. To many of us, this is the opposite of true.
Re:This is where the FTC could really step in (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been thinking that the media has greatly misrepresented the Tea Party movement. The reporting makes the Tea Party look so nutty that I begin to doubt it on the grounds that no group of people sharing a common interest or three could be quite that incoherent, contradictory, and plain stupid.
There are a bunch of problems with taxation that make perfect sense to protest. Taxes are overcomplicated. An excellent example are these Taxsaver plans, in which taxpayers are asked to estimate what their medical expenses will be, and if they guess wrong, they pay more, and think it's their fault! Guess too low, and pay tax on the difference, or guess too high and simply forfeit that difference to the government! That's the sort of crap cell phone providers pull with their confusopoly. Another is the double standard in which the government pays no interest if they withheld too much money from your pay, but if it's the other way around, you pay a "penalty" calculated at a very high rate of interest. Rather like what credit card issuers do. For decades now, American politicians have been abusing the tax code to implement policy because they think that's an easier way to slip things past the public. This is why people are so angry with Congress and what I think the Tea Party is really about. They weasel extra money from the public with all this dirty pool, then they insult our intelligence by acting as if we don't see it, and then they blow most of the money on pork and unfair regulation designed to sneakily transfer wealth to their "friends" while the rest of us are left out. Taxes that are unexpected because they violate the norms and the law are unfair. I lived in NC briefly, and had no idea there was a "use tax" on items from out of state, until tax time. If someone ordered thousands of dollars worth of merchandise, it's possible a surprise tax like that could catch them without enough money on hand to pay in time, because they didn't know and had no reason to inquire about such a possibility. If this tax is legit, then Amazon should collect the tax for NC at the time of sale. Either way, NC should not be allowed to engage in a fishing expedition.
Re: (Score:2)
This would be a grand opportunity to decide once and for all whether internet purchases can be practically taxed
Having the fed "decide once and for all" is exactly what is wrong with federal encroachment on state rights. In this case because it is an enumerated power and it is interstate, I actually agree that the fed needs to settle at least the interstate part of the issue but "once and for all" is a very dangerous justification. While I'm sure you would never misuse it, plenty of others have.
Re: (Score:2)
With the current Congress and Administration, they will either do A) nothing or B) something that makes issues like this *even worse*.
NC is desperate for money (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that this is an excuse, but because the NC government won't play triage with projects and cut what it can tolerate so the budget is experiencing a shortfall again in the billions.
Re:NC is desperate for money (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:NC is desperate for money (Score:5, Insightful)
In short: "I do not like the government spending money on stuff I don't like (sports stadiums). They should be spending it on things I do like (state parks)."
More like: "I do not like the state spending money on funding new private commercial enterprises that traditionally lose money. They should be spending it on maintaining existing state-owned properties, held in trust by the state for its residents."
Re:NC is desperate for money (Score:5, Interesting)
Hell, in Winston-Salem, they just built a minor league baseball stadium, using mostly tax money, for a mere 30 million or so.
While I'm FAR from supporting tax-payer funded stadiums in most cases, there's a huge difference between a five hundred million park for a professional team threatening half-heartedly to move and an affordable stadium meant to lure or keep a low revenue minor league park.
Minor league teams are great for families (bring a family of four for the price of one ticket in a major league park), and it's very feasible that the tax collected over the life of that stadium will absolutely exceed 30 million. So it may very well fund a road or two. Beats another toll road every day...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They can't force out of state companies to collect taxes for them. That would be illegal.
However the tax must be paid (akin to a customs fee) upon entering the state. But since there is no feasible way for the state to know what is passing into its borders, citizens are able to avoid paying the state sales tax (or use tax in this case).
The answer to your question is yes. They need the personal information to pursue the purchasers individually.
Re: (Score:2)
Also state taxes on good sold across the border are unconstitutional. The use tax is a way of cheating and getting around the constitutional tax limit.
Re: (Score:2)
Just a nit but sales (or use) taxes assessed by one state on goods sold in another state are unconstitutional only because of the way they've been implemented in the past (i.e. by state governments alone). Congress has exclusive authority to regulate interstate commerce and all state attempts to impose cross-border sales taxes have improperly encroached upon that authority. However, the US Supreme Court has made it very clear that Congress can enact legislation that permits cross-border taxes of these typ
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Let me first say that IANAL.
Use tax is not a tax on interstate commerce. The state is not asking for any money specifically because the sale was across a border or from another state. Use tax is a tax on you as a purchaser and citizen of your state, levied by a state that has taxation authority over you, on items that you purchase for use in your state. When a seller collects it, it's called "sales tax". When you pay it yourself because you did business with a seller who does not have to collect it, it'
Re: (Score:2)
IIRC within the EU system larger (in terms of how much they export to a given country) merchants must handle the VAT for each country they sell to seperately but smaller ones are allowed to treat foreign buyers which aren't VAT registered buisnesses* as if they were domestic buyers.
The EU system has a couple of things that let this work though. Firstly VAT rates are done on a per country basis so even if you have to deal with all of them seperately it's not that much of a burden. Secondly countries in the E
Re: (Score:2)
VAT is nice, because its easy to calculate. In the US, different states, counties, and even cities have different tax levels. In my area, there is an additional 0.5% sales tax to help pay for Transit stuff ( I want to say its 3% state, 1% county, 1% local, and .5% for transit in the metro area, which adds up to 5.5%. But I am new to sales tax, so i'm not sure... a few miles over, they have that, plus another 0.5% sales tax to help pay off a baseball stadium that is one county over from them.. There are s
A means to an end... (Score:5, Insightful)
I would think that this is North Carolina's way to have amazon.com to start collecting taxes when items are shipped to their state. It's a force move.
Logically, there would be way to much spent then collected IMO. The state would have to track down each customers tax returns for (they can only go back a certain amount of time for an audit and I though it was 5 years, not 7 which NC wants), and then correlate the data to either ensure that the taxpayer claimed the items or did not claim the items. Then the state would have to calculate taxes on said items, or see if it affects the effective tax rate for said taxpayer, then tack on interest to those monies, then notify the taxpayer if the state can find the tax payer (moved since filing, died, etc...).
Another question would be how the state came up with the number of purchases from amazon.com to their state?
Re:A means to an end... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A means to an end... (Score:5, Funny)
There is also the nuclear option
That's right! Take off and nuke NC from orbit. It's the only way to be sure, of, er, something.
Re: (Score:2)
If they are anything like the IRS, they will claim you owe them taxes in a whatever amount they calculate and it will be up to you to go through your return correct to correct their mistakes.
Re: (Score:2)
A use tax is all fine and dandy... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A use tax is all fine and dandy... (Score:4, Informative)
The goods purchased may not all be taxed at the same rate, or some may be exempt. General catagories rather than specific titles may be acceptable, but a total dollar amount alone is likely insufficient for proper assessment.
Re: (Score:2)
Because Amazon is not being asked to collect the taxes. The State wants the information so they can audit their own citizens and see if they've paid up. And Amazon is not going to be aware of what items are taxable, nontaxable, or taxable at different rates within a state, not to mention county, municipal, or zone taxes, tax holidays on specific items, etc etc.
So they are going to pull Cleetus's sales records, say "Hey, Cleetus, you purchased 12 CDs at $10 each at a tax rate of 5%, 4 XBOX games at a luxur
Compromise... (Score:2)
Perhaps North Carolina and Amazon could come to a compromise and instead of getting the details of exactly what a customer purchased they could instead get a broad category.
So for example -
Bob Smith
123 Fake Street
5x Books
Total Cost $50
But I don't know how a usage tax works so you might get a tax break if it was for example a school book instead of a "fun" book (e.g. Women's Porn/"Romance").
This is SOOO stupid (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Shortsightedness (Score:2)
The Federal Government, like all state governments, has gotten out of control. Trillions of dollars in useless spending(I am talking about actual useless spending, not important spending, i.e. Military, enforcement, etc) and it does not appear to be getting any better. This is not a new trend, as this as been an issue for a long time.
Military spending accounts for half of the Federal budget. You cannot lower taxes and wage two wars at the same time you have hundreds of military bases scattered throughout the globe and not have a deficit. That's pretty basic macroeconomics.
Just how long does the EU believe it can fund every lazy person's wet dream(s) before it goes bankrupt?
Germans have the right to vacation time. They're also the only competition China has in worldwide exports. France has a nationwide network of nuclear power plants and high speed electric rail. London is one of the financial capitals of the world. And guess what? All of
Obviously, I hope Amazon wins... but (Score:5, Insightful)
I sincerely hope Amazon wins, but it seems to me that without some kind of federal-level intervention, more and more states are going to push to get online / mailorder merchants to collect their taxes.
Amazon's big enough that if push came to shove, they could probably implement a sales tax system based on delivery address that could cover all 50 states and the territories.
However, what really scares me is that this would be a death blow to a lot of smaller online and mail order retailers. I built a catalog and shopping cart system for a friend who had a business model that just didn't quite fit existing off the shelf models, and I have to say that I do not relish the idea of having to build in a system for 50+ different sets of taxes. However, that task is childs-play compared to the accounting nightmare my friend would have in having to fill out forms and remittances to all those different jurisdictions. She gets by, but doesn't exactly have a huge margin... the extra complication of collecting for all those jurisdictions and time/effort needed to deal with it could tip the scales on whether her business continues to be profitable or not.
So, this isn't really about one state being greedy - it's about the camel's nose under the tent.
Sooner or later, someone will suggest that the federal government charge some modest tax (say 5%) on all online / mailorder sales, then distribute the funds to the states based on their share of the delivered sales.
Of course, the federal government would probably not be able to resist getting THEIR hands on the money and we'd either end up with an insane rate with the federal government back-dooring a national sales tax in, or the states complaining that the rate needs to be higher since they're still "losing money" versus collecting their full state sales tax.
This is just an ugly situation all 'round.
Personally, I would think that the success of online retailers is at least partly due to the largely tax-free nature of sales transactions. I doubt we'd see sales taxes kill e-commerce, but I can see it hurting small e-tailers and having a bit of a downward pressure on sales as it'll be eating into the spending power of the buyers.
Re:Obviously, I hope Amazon wins... but (Score:5, Informative)
I do not relish the idea of having to build in a system for 50+ different sets of taxes.
Like it's only 50! Sales taxes can change along county and township boundaries. What is actually taxed changes too.
Re:Obviously, I hope Amazon wins... but (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, try something closer to 50,000 tax rates once you factor in county/municipal/local sales taxes, differing rates based on the item sold of which categories differ by state (a bag of potato chips sold here in Maine is considered a "snack" if it's a small bag and is therefore taxable, but "groceries" if it's a large bag and is therefore nontaxable, unless it is sold in a place that depends on prepared food sales like a restaurant for more than 50% of their income at which point it's a "snack" again).
Re:Obviously, I hope Amazon wins... but (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Also, for some purchases, shipping is cheaper than or equal to sales tax. At the point that you add tax+shipping, then purchasing online has really lost most of it's appeal and it just makes more sense (from a budget perspective) to go to the brick and mortar store and but it.
As a seller, you should be competing with other sellers. If you can only compete successfully because you allow your customers to cheat on their taxes, and your competitor cannot allow them to cheat, why should you gain an advantage from that?
Re: (Score:2)
Because the god damn Constitution says you can.
Re: (Score:2)
Which wouldn't break North Carolina's heart AT ALL. If you went to a "brick and mortar" store to purchase your item it sure would make their tax collection efforts a lot easier now wouldn't it?
There is no real downside to the State of N.C. in this action. If they win and Amazon gives them what they want they get extra money. If Amazon "goes nuclear" and refuses to ship to N.C. then it drives customers into the traditional B&M stores where the state can collect sales tax. If the state loses and Amazon do
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Good luck Amazon, as Al Capone found out, you can get away with murder, but you can't beat tax evasion.
Why when it comes to taxes you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, and then you are still guilty anyway?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
if (zipcode == '59025')
if (purchaserisinsidecitylimits)
if (itemcategory == 'food')
if (itemiscooked && paymentmethod != 'government')
taxpercent = 6.25;
I doubt Amazon cares much about our privacy. (Score:3, Insightful)
They're just using this as a legal reason not to release their customer records. If you could cite a constitutional amendment to get out of a tax audit wouldn't you?
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I suppose, but I still feel that this is really just an excuse to keep the govt out of their books than anything else.
keeping records? for how long? (Score:2, Interesting)
Amazon is arguing that the records of what books, music, and videos its customers bought deserve enhanced protection.
Aren't companies obliged to purge these records after some time, just like say, google, is obliged to purge search records?
I sure hope they are...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't think I've heard of that. I'm pretty sure, at best, there are limits on how long they are required to keep the records.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
One click taxation (Score:3, Funny)
Re:One click taxation (Score:5, Insightful)
Political tool (Score:5, Interesting)
In 1987, the Washington City Paper, a paper from the left, published [theamericanporch.com] the video rental history of Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork, from the right. There was next to no dirt found, but it wasn't for lack of self-admitted trying. It was a politically motivated stunt, and they were desperate to find X-rated rentals or even just a penchant for a particular actress of the day.
By revealing detailed media purchases to a government, it gives the incumbents the opportunity to smear political challengers.
Use Tax and Digital Goods (Score:2)
What's really interesting to me is that some states try to argue for use taxes on non-concrete goods, like ebooks or downloads or whatever - even though the ones whose laws I've read confine it to 'tangible' goods.
Get rid of sales tax (Score:5, Interesting)
States need to recognize that they have lost the battle with online retailers and instead do what they can to lower the cost of business for in-state retailers.
Namely, get rid of sales taxes and make it up via property tax and income tax.
As luck would have it, the Federal tax code encourages this. An individual is allowed to deduct their choice of two out of these three forms of taxation via Schedule A. Residents of the states which only have two of the three taxes get an unfair advantage as they are allowed to deduct their entire state taxes instead of a portion of them.
Any state that eliminates sales tax gets the advantage of lowering the overall tax burden of their residents AND providing an attractive location for online retailers to build warehouses and provide jobs that increase the tax base for the state.
Re: (Score:2)
"States need to recognize that they have lost the battle with online retailers and instead do what they can to lower the cost of business for in-state retailers."
They don't believe that they've lost and I have to agree with them.
It's now technically possible to get what they want. The state of taxation for online purchases is currently in legal limbo. Congress keeps extending the "tax free" period but as the budget crisis deepens more and more state governments are going to pummeling their Congressional Leg
This is a settled Constitutional issue... (Score:3, Interesting)
This is pretty simple. North Carolina is bluffing, hoping that Amazon will not take this to the federal appellate courts.
There is longstanding legal precedent banning government authorities from requiring bookstores or libraries to disclose information about a customer's interests. This has been litigated repeatedly, all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court; the rulings have subsequently been applied to videotape/CD rentals as well. There is related case law pertaining to the subscription lists of magazines and newspapers--but that's a slightly different subject.
Brief synopsis of legal history:
A brief synopsis of bookstore and library privacy issues can be found at ReaderPrivacy.org [readerprivacy.org].
But there's a bit more
As the Reader Privacy article notes, the PATRIOT Act (rushed into law immediately after the 9/11 tragedy) specifically gives the FBI the ability to subpoena purchase records from bookstores, as well as borrowing records from libraries. However--that power is limited to the FBI (although it can probably be exercised by other federal law enforcement agencies)--but it requires a federal judge to sign the warrant, based on probable cause, naming a specific individual. That gives no support at all to a state sales tax authority asking for a complete data dump of 7 years worth of purchase transactions.
In short--this will annoy Amazon's management, provide hefty fees for a bunch of lawyers, and produce a grand total of zero revenue for the state of North Carolina.
Thought Police (Score:2)
Yes, the government needs to know what book you bought, not just how much you paid for it. /sarcasm off
I hope this is the part that is frightening people, not that the feds are trying to get more $..
Feds/States (Score:2)
Ok ok, i typoed i meant 'states'...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
North Carolina is not asking Amazon to collect taxes. They are asking for sales information so they can go after their own citizens themselves. Still not information they are authorized to, but they are entitled to that sales tax income - it's just that the citizens of their own state should be paying it since they chose to do business with a company that doesn't collect it on their behalf.
Sales tax is an obligation of the purchaser, not the seller. It's just that, for "convenience", all states that levy
Re: (Score:2)
Re:What Amazon needs to do ... (Score:2, Interesting)
federal case? (Score:2)
(especially if NC wins this in court).
...which they won't because it will have to be thrown out of state court (Amazon doesn't actually have offices in NC). It will have to be taken to federal court:
Amazon is incorporated (which I assume means that it should be treated as a person under the Constitution). This means that it should simply be able to say "no" to any request from a state outside its own (office locations in other states) per Article 1, section 10 and article 3, section 2. There is probably some legal precedent involved that make
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would rather keep my ability to log in at any time and see my own entire purchase history.