The Sopranos Meet H-1B In New Jersey 324
theodp writes "We smack this IT geek around a little, take him for a nice car ride, threaten to 'take care of him' if he doesn't recant his story, give him 5 G's for his trouble, and badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed. Federal prosecutors allege that an H-1B visa-holding IT employee who was owed some $53,000 in back wages was threatened in meetings at restaurants and in his home if he didn't change his story. However, the victim captured some of what happened on tape, and two employees of an Illinois-based IT staffing company — not named in the indictment but identified by the NJ Star-Ledger as ComData Consulting Inc. of Rolling Meadows, IL — are now facing extortion-related charges and a possible 20 years in prison."
Unacceptable (Score:4, Insightful)
This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door. Perhaps someday we'll realize this has been going on in Chinese restaurants and massage parlors for 50 years and do something about those too?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You noticed that the story is about US locals doing those thing to alien working for them, right?
Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Informative)
You noticed that the story is about US locals doing those thing to alien working for them, right?
Yes, the US locals Trinath Chigurupati and Sateesh Yalamanchili were the ones who did this. If the guy you replied to had bothered to read the article he would have known that!
Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Funny)
Trinath Chigurupati, a 36-year-old Indian citizen living in Monmouth Junction, was arrested at his home Wednesday and released on $150,000 bail.
I think that's a pretty good statement that a foreign citizen was involved.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This is about crime. Did someone claim that there is no crime in the USA? Note that the accused perpetrators are being prosecuted and will, if found guilty, go to prison.
man!.. (Score:5, Informative)
you actually have no idea about the level of corruption in "developing countries". There may be lot of sh!t going at top level, but at grassroots level the level of corruption in US is not even a small % of what goes on in countries like India. I live there, so I know.
Heck, to repair my phone line I was asked for a bribe directly, ad if you want a new electricity connection, be prepared to pay big.
And guess what, in the west you have to bribe to get something "Wrong" done, in India you have to bribe for the right thing too!
Re:man!.. (Score:5, Informative)
My mum is from India and when I visited last year, I heard about the bribes she had to pay for an electric connection for the new house we build in her ancestral village.
We are still waiting for a link to the water mains (bribes included) and have not bothered with a land phone line as that includes more bribes and we mostly used mobile phones anyway.
My parents were willing to pay market rates for a couple of people to come and cut the grass in the garden there. The local workers refused, giving excuses while hoping for more pay.
My dad got pissed off enough to buy a grass cutting machine from Singapore and used it himself when he was in India with my mum for a holiday.
The very next day the labourers were willing to start cutting grass - for market rates.
The house they build is currently almost 5 years old, and yet there are still some minor carpentry work outstanding with contractors still giving excuses. This just made my dad do most of the stuff himself (him being a handy man by nature).
In the end, right now, my dad has better gear there then most of the local contractors / workers because of the shennigans they try to pull. And whenever my dad gets pissed off, guess they ain't getting work and he does it all himself.
The whole society there is corrupt - and they almost always try to squeeze out as much as they can, and as long as they think they can get away with it / are in a position of (no matter how minor) power.
Re:man!.. (Score:5, Interesting)
my dad has better gear there then most of the local contractors / workers
Maybe he should hire a couple of impressionable young people, teach them honest business practices (and how to do the actual work of course) and start his own contracting company.
Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was an undergrad I used to eat across the street from the Engineering building at a small Vietnamese restaurant, it was cheap and hot.
One particular late night I came there with a few hours of Hydro HW, sat down and ordered some Pho and started taking my stuff out of my backpack when I heard this inhuman scream and a slap. I thought they were being robbed or something and froze there in terror until I started hearing the crying and "shhhhhh" sounds I remember all too well from a Catholic school upbringing, someone was being beaten in the back and whoever was doing it was trying to stop other people from finding out. I am ashamed to say it but I went outside and smoked a cigarette, ate the Pho and left as quickly as possible. I think I even left a tip. The next week I came in during the day to get something and the woman behind the counter had a fading welt in the shape of a belt across her face and she was smiling.
So, after that shameful moment of realization I went to the Women's Resource Center on campus and told them. Never found out what happened though, that woman's face behind the counter haunts me to this day. Too many of just do nothing when we know the shitty situation those workers find themselves in.
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't. Do. Nothing.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Do you mean: Don't, do nothing. or Do something?
The latter. Of course, I don't know why anyone has to explain it; it was really quite not unclear.
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Funny)
in soviet Russia, Yoda channels you!
in soviet Russia, Yoda you channels!
There ya go ... for you fixed it is.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Insightful)
When leaving only gets you dragged back and beaten twice as hard for escaping, it's not really an option.
Escape is a gutsy move, sure to piss off the captors and it may even cost you your life.
The lion's share of the burden rightly falls on outsiders who are not as easy to catch, and are in a much better position to summon the cavalry.
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Insightful)
Contrary to what you might think, she could leave if she wanted to.
VERY common misconception where domestic and foreign worker violence is involved. No, a lot of the time these people don't believe they have a choice. By the time things have progressed to this point, most of them have it pretty thoroughly engrained in their minds that offering any form of resistance, to say nothing of reporting the problem, will only lead to intensified beatings, to the point of severe injury or death. These people are controlled by fear. Fear of worse beatings. Fear of death.
Fear Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Insightful)
And fear of the unknown. Even being beat or dying doesn't hold a candle to the fear of the unknown. When people are in an abusive relationsihp, they often stay because the abuse and beatings they get here are at least known. Comparatively, they don't know if they leave _what_ will happen.
Fear of the unknown stops people from many things: from leaving abusive relationships, to success in business and life. It's also a huge problem for guys wanting to ask a girl out.
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Interesting)
And what if they do leave? Assuming their immigration status allows them to quit and seek assistance, they could take refuge in a shelter for a while and possibly scrap together food and rent if they're lucky enough to find a minimum wage job. Sadly, dealing with the abuse and staying put may be their best option.
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:5, Insightful)
And whose legal and cultural system they don't understand. There's a quote from movie, where a factory owner in London is trying to get one of his workers, a woman illegally immigrated from Turkey, for a sexual favor. He basically says, if you don't do it, I'll report you to the government, and they'll throw you in jail. "And British jail is not like your Turkish jail, where the men and women are kept separate. If you go to jail you will be raped every night, over and over again." 100% bullshit, but 100% effective.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It works like
Re:Abuse of Restaurant Workers (Score:4, Insightful)
would you turn off Rush for a few minutes and do some actual reading? Try Googling "human trafficking". I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live under conditions little better than slavery.
Close; also 100K+ American teens at high risk. (Score:5, Informative)
> Try Googling "human trafficking". I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live under conditions little better than slavery.
Close. Actually, I think you'll find that many undocumented immigrants live in conditions of slavery. To the extent where the only real distinction is that the law--which they don't know anyway--says that it's illegal.
You'll also find that hundreds of thousands of American teens are at high risk for being kidnapped or tricked into a life of slavery. Sources: The Polaris Project [polarisproject.org], Terry Lee Wright's River of Innocents [riverofinnocents.com], Victor Malarek's The Natashas.
Not that we should care whether it's an immigrant or not. And the difference in the cultures of different immigrant groups make different techniques useful in finding and prosecuting human traffickers. But it's not really an immigrant problem, so much as a human one.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Oh yeah? How do we explain YOU then?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You should stop worrying about other peoples plights so much, you'll live longer.
I hope you are aware that it were the people who *did* care are also the ones responsible for your right to actually spout that garbage of yours.
Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely. And really, this might be how things are done elsewhere, but it is never acceptable. I'm unfamiliar with the Chinese restaurant/massage parlor comment, but these practices need to be stamped out wherever they are. Cultural relativism is criminal when it is used to excuse crimes like this.
Yes and no. (Score:5, Informative)
> This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.
I agree. We have to change it. But it's not just a foreign problem.
This is New Jersey. If you haven't heard a story about something like this happening in New Jersey, you haven't been listening. It's like not hearing a story about questionable behavior by waste contractors in several of the nation's major cities, or not hearing about racism on the part of law enforcement in some towns in the South. Sure, there are lots of legitimate businesspeople, and waste contractors, and helpful law enforcement officers. But the other kinds also exists and even thrives. Sure, sometimes its people bringing in their problems, but we have a lot of our own.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
This behavior is unacceptable from companies that have offices in America. That might be how people do business in other places, but they need to leave that shit at the door.
How is the parent comment rated insightful? It was US company and at least one of the crime perpetrators was a US citizen from New Jersey. It was the victim that was foreign.
Seems to me the shit was in the US to begin with and was the people from outside US that were used to good business practices that stand up against it from the story !
Man, then you ask why we Europeans think that Americans are full of crap ! At least in such obvious cases at least give the trouble to actually read the article before com
Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
Here are some examples from today's headlines. And by today I mean this week!
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/17/alec-massey-mine/ [thinkprogress.org]
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-18/goldman-s-staged-explosion-deserves-apology-roger-lowenstein.html [businessweek.com]
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/yesterday-germany-today-uk-tomorrow-world-goldmans-response-lawsuits-everyone-q1-stub-bonuse [zerohedge.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar_Capital [wikipedia.org]
Re:Unacceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You think that's bad? Here's something to think about. It is illegal to import goods into the USA that have been manufactured by prison labour [wikipedia.org]. Not just for sale, but also things that you might have on you during your vacation. Oh, and this goes for interstate as well.
But the US uses prison labour to manufacture various things. Are license plates still made in prisons? If so, that does seem to go against this particular law every single time you cross a state border. How about all the circuit boards that IB
Note To "Goombahs" and Other Wannabes (Score:5, Interesting)
Geeks live for this sort of crap, so don't try it.
You will lose.
Free Market (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Free Market (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Andersen Consulting changed its name as a result of a dispute with their parent company Arthur Andersen which also resulted in Andersen Consulting becoming independent of Arthur Andersen. Further, they did so prior to the discovery of Arthur Andersen's crookedness in the Enron mess. They did not change their name to attempt to cover over any wrongdoing on their
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
They did not change their name to attempt to cover over any wrongdoing on their part.
You say "tomato", I say their fucking thieves. It's all good.
Re:Free Market (Score:5, Informative)
Good examples, but FYI the word "née" works the other way around.
The reason why (Score:2, Informative)
> Good examples, but FYI the word "née" works the other way around.
You are correct, but you didn't explain it, and I think people will have a hard time remembering how it works if they don't know. The word née means "born" so it's like you're giving the birth name of a person. That's why you list their original name after the word née, e.g. Xe (née Blackwater).
Re: (Score:2)
Shouldn't that be Altria, nee Philip Morris?
Re: (Score:2)
Slightly different. Comcast didn' change their company name, just the brand name of their main service package. Same reason though.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Free Market (Score:5, Insightful)
True, they just oppose a government powerful enough to do something about it.
Re: (Score:2)
your a perfect example of a penis attached to a forehead.
From the ComData Web Site (Score:5, Insightful)
Our Talent Engagement and Management Teams strongly believe in
The capacity of recruiters for absolute BS is amazing. Mind you there are smart ethical headhunters out there, but they're few and far between.
Re: (Score:2)
Talent Engagement And Management TEAMs. That's officially double-speak.
Family first attitude. Yes, that family.
Let Com Data hear from you (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Let Com Data hear from you (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone notice how "careers" is misspelled on their website? That alone would cause me to NEVER use their services, because if you can't proofread your own damn website, what guarantees are there that you pay attention to detail in whatever work you provide?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How many years? (Score:5, Interesting)
Judging by the content of recruiters e-mails that I get, it is not possible to get an IT related job in the United States right now unless you are an H1-B visa holder.
Re:How many years? (Score:4, Insightful)
> Judging by the content of recruiters e-mails that I get...
And, as we all know, there is no more reliable source of information than recruiters.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"If you are really good you can get a job anywhere, visa or not."
Sure, as long as you have money to bribe people and you keep your head down in the boat.
Revolting (Score:2)
This is exactly why we have criminal law. There is a special place in hell for people who take advantage of vulnerable people, but while they are here on earth we have another place for them--prison.
I'm outraged.
Re:Revolting (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago, it came to light that the local mob was working with Mexican mobs to traffic in seasonal workers across the state. They were working for next to nothing, usually tricked or coerced into service by Mexican criminals.
Like you said, it was revolting. A lot of them were teenagers or young families with kids. It was a very small town, but we never saw them in school or playing outside. Police found homes with 70+ people crammed in every room. They were apparently told to stay out of sight and spent months with young children shut inside day and night.
Problems - since 2008 - some listed listed here... (Score:2, Informative)
...URL is:
. http://www.desicrunch.com/DisplayReviews.aspx?company=Comdata_Consulting_Inc [desicrunch.com]
Hey Fed's, you listening?
Recruiters lie, get everything in writing (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember years back being lured to a new job with one of the incentives being that the job included health insurance. Turned out that they 'had' it terms of it was offered, not included. It was an awful plan with no employer cost coverage. The cost for my family would have been a grand a month if I had paid for it.
I explained that I was one phone call from going back to where I came from and that the recruiters deceptive words were going to have a cost. In the end they ate the cost of the insurance, and I stayed where I was. Some people will bully you unless you stand up for yourself. All that being said, in today's economy I don't know if that is still good advice.
How about accountability in H1B with public records? That would solve this kind of problem for the poor guy who was owed so many back wages. Those in the states who are losing out to H1B's would better be able to make the case that their are Americans who can do the job. Those that do come over could avoid being turned into virtual slaves, I have met far too many H1B's who were worked 80 hours a week for wages less than half what an American would take. They would do it too, whether it was because their passport was confiscated or because such wages were still that much better than what they made at home.
Professional Coyotes? (Score:5, Informative)
This is fascinating in light of the recent lawsuit [npr.org] filed and won in Louisiana on behalf of a group of teachers from the Philippines who were brought here to teach and virtually held hostage by the agency that recruited them. (They won their lawsuit a few days ago--can't recall the more recent source.) Their visas were held by the recruiter as they were squeezed for ever-increasing fees, forced to rent substandard housing at exorbitant rates, and otherwise abused.
It's especially fascinating to me that in these recessionary times when recent American college graduates can't find work, we have to import elementary and high school teachers and people with the most basic IT skills so that they can be held in indentured servitude and squeezed for more and more money. I guess human trafficking is no longer limited to unskilled workers.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's just say that they aren't being imported because there's a high demand for foreign work. They don't have skills that American workers don't have.
Why are we importing them, then?
Because we can treat them like slaves because most of them are ignorant to the laws in the USA. They see it as a land of opportunity and are willing to work for less than decent wages to get their feet in the proverbial door. No one usually tells them that they'll have ever-increasing debt the likes of which we haven't seen
Can I go undercover? (Score:2, Funny)
More! (Score:2)
Twenty years is not enough and I hope they sweep up the entire company!
Stock Options (Score:3, Interesting)
The idiots from the IT outsourcing firm should have done it the "dot com" way. Under pay him by the same amount but promise him lots of stock options with absurd vesting requirements. Too bad if the the stock options go under water and then disappear through a corporate buyout.
You may have better odds striking it rich in Vegas or by playing the lottery but stock options in lieu of salary are legal.
Cheers,
Dave
If this was me. (Score:3, Funny)
We offered him a rig with DUAL SLI ATI Radeon 5970s and an i7 Extreme CPU with liquid cooling. Badda boom, badda bing, case dismissed
Given unemployment, cancel these programs. (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no shortage of citizens that are capable of doing the job - they just have the problem of being a US citizen.
Cancel the program and make it impossible to ignore the citizen until there is a real problem (long-term & short-term unemployment under 2%). Make it so that permatemping/temporary work does not count towards that 2%. Then reinstate with a sufficient amount of people(whom are paid a wage that discourages bribery) to enforce that law.
When you hear "shortage" used to describe the amount of citizens in a needed part of the private sector(whether it is IT or most non-temporary forms of employment in the US), the source is lying through their teeth.
But there is a 'shortage' (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Funny thing too, at one time a "shortage" of qualified people was a reason for businesses to contribute back to society by providing training and scholarship programs to get the people they needed. This, in turn, encouraged loyalty in both directions and so, long term employment. IF the H1B program is permitted to continue at all, the constraints should be expanded so that not only must the employer show that there are no qualified citizens or green card employees available but that there are none who could
Just being competitive in the global marketplace (Score:3, Insightful)
It's fascinating that Americans (Score:3, Insightful)
Who supposedly support the free and lubricated market when it comes to the free movement of capital across the globe can be so protectionist when it comes to labour. By the tenets of capitalism, a Bangladeshi man should be able to move to New Jersey without let or hindrance and put X plumbers and handymen out of business. How come the proponents of capitalism can consider with glee another country's protected industries and financial markets falling to the inexorable march while at the same time, oddly, not sharing the glee of, say, a Sri Lankan chicken farmer at the thought of selling Americans chicken for 0.50$ / lb, retail?
Capitalist? Ha
Department of Labor enforcement going again (Score:3, Interesting)
It's good to see the Department of Labor putting some teeth into labor law again. During the Bush years, too many regulatory agencies were out to lunch. The SEC, of course, we know about. Less well known was the attitude at the Labor Department. Now they're catching crooks again.
Also, Obama just made two recess appointments to the National Labor Relations Board. The NLRB was down to two members, and couldn't do anything. Now the NLRB is back in business. It's going to be easier to unionize.
US wage and hour law, as enacted by Congress decades ago, is quite pro-labor. It's the enforcement that's been weak. Looks like that's changing.
NJ is the Mecca of H1B Fraud (Score:3, Informative)
Another examle:
Vision Systems Group Indicted for H1B Visa Fraud
http://www.huliq.com/3257/77441/vision-systems-group-indicted-h1b-visa-fraud [huliq.com]
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Insightful)
The H1B program deserves to be bashed, mindless or not. It artificially depresses the IT job market by flooding it with workers who are easy for companies to bully or take advantage of. These workers allow themselves to be treated like crap because they cannot leave their jobs without risking getting sent back to India. Most of them are afraid to speak up when they are treated unfairly because #1, they feel like they have it better than they did in India and #2, they don't know their rights in our country.
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Insightful)
You can't say it's always "mindless" to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers"--there are a few who do it out of prejudice, but most Americans complain about these things for perfectly rational reasons.
"Buy American and Americans work." That was the well-advertised slogan of the 80s, and yet NAFTA and outsourcing empowered a transnational corporate world in opposition to the very values of localism and national pride which most Americans grew up embracing. Importing foreign workers and exporting American jobs are some of the most visible violations of these values.
The oft-repeated mantra is, "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" Then why does almost anyone in the tech sector know many skilled but unemployed Americans? And if there were a real shortage, introductory salaries and incentives would let the "free market" attract more Americans to become qualified for tech jobs in the near future--but instead, H1B keeps introductory salaries and incentives artificially low and _creates_ the very shortage tech employers complain about!
"Call center work (or 7-11 clerking, or construction, or industrial farm work, or any 'unskilled labor') is drudgery no Americans are willing to do!" Bullshit. Maybe they won't do it for minimum-wage-or-less like immigrants or outsourced labor, but if not unfairly undercut by immigrants or outsourcing there are millions of Americans who would gladly work any and every job. Just look at the damned unemployment rate, especially among minorities--it is patently unjust and unreasonable to support immigration and job outsourcing when so many Americans are left jobless. If a job is vital and needs to get done, employer and employee will find the right pay each is willing to live with--the market will set fair pay in a fair, largely closed system. But in an open system filled with endless hordes of immigrants and outsourced labor willing to work for wages no American can live on--unless he's willing to live in a closet and eat the cheapest processed foodcrap imaginable and never even dream of supporting a family and kids--employees become a disposable commodity and employers will exploit the unjust and unnatural imbalance.
So, while what happened to this H1B guy is inherently unfair, criminal, and wrong--it is the foreseeable result of the H1B program, which along with outsourcing and uncontrolled immigration is creating an imbalanced market where workers both skilled and unskilled are disposable commodities instead of people.
And that doesn't even begin to touch on the cultural issues. The Western world, and especially the U.S., is currently committing cultural suicide by not limiting immigration to rational levels. We are a nation built on immigration, that's true--but it has never neared this uncontrolled torrent before: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069# [google.com]
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, another mindless rant full of misconceptions, Where should I start?
The H1B's (as opposed to "outsourced jobs") are paid the same as an American worker would. So, please learn the difference and understand to place your indignation in the right place. The H1-B Program is a legitimate way for companies to be competitive. You should be holding your representatives and senators accountable for updating the rules and enforcement to root out these types of fraud. But it is easier to "bash the whole H1B program, all Indian techies and Indian call centers". In this case, the angst is misplaced and done out of ignorance or malice. People who engage in this are, quite frankly, ignorant and will willfully throw the baby out with the bathwater. Call your senator and congressman and tell them to fix the H1 Visa program.
Anecdoatlly, I feel that the mantra "We don't have enough skilled workers, so we need H1B!" is actually accurate when taken in context - and for two completely different reasons. One is that you're lumping all "skills" together: a Web Developer is NOT a good systems administrator or a DBA. So, you do get spot shortages of specific skillsets in places. The second is that the Indian software industry focuses on developing niches more effectively than in the US. Our kids are well rounded - they're not as good at being specialists in a given field. So, I can locally find a guy who can figure out his way in a given system (makes for a great supervisor of contract resources, BTW). But if I need someone who understands the intricacies of the SAP-HR module, it is more efficient to get a contract specialist. This is where companies that staff using H1-B's excel because I (a) can't keep this specialist busy and productive 40/hr a week month-after-month and (b) he won't ever be remotely interested (even if he does have the skills) in taking on a more flexible role.
In short, the above has been my experience.in the past 15 years of being in IT and then in SW Development. I have found that many Americans workers detest working with Indian colleagues (regardless of whether they're H1-B or not). I find this racist and stupid in the extreme and this attitude really hurts them and gives American workers a bad name. I know that some managers will prefer to not mix US sourced folks with employees or contractors of Indian origin.
I actually had a US Citizen turn down a 6month contract at $105/hr because he felt that the working conditions were not appropriate. His complaint: no assigned cube with window view and he reported to an "unqualified" supervisor ... which was code for someone of Indian background.
So, I have a hard time finding sympathy with your post. Perhaps if it was a little more informed and researched, I might be willing to engage constructively.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"The H1B's (as opposed to "outsourced jobs") are paid the same as an American worker would." That's bullshit. The job market is just that, a market. Supply and demand. Restrict supply wages go up, increase supply wages go down. Any increase in the supply automatically reduces wages. If there really is a shortage of skilled IT workers, how about investing in education? If people see wages on the rise, you can guarantee more will seek education in the field. If we aren't turning out qualified candidate
Re: (Score:2)
I'll agree with you, but for different reasons. Americans *ARE* willing to do these jobs. Hell, I did such work -- when I was 16 -- and for a couple of years after that. These are jobs (not necessarily construction or farm anyway) that have been traditionally done by high-school or college students trying to make some spending money. I honestly d
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Informative)
In my grandfathers day, a bagboy's salary+tips was enough to support support an adult frugally. A clerk at a corner store could expect to support a small family (essentially the same as working at a 7/11).
Now? A typical wal-mart employee working full time at minimum wage +$0.25 to $2 can pay rent on a 1 bedroom apartment, pay the electric bill and if lucky some food with nothing left for other necessities. Unless you already own a home outright or want to rent space in a crack house, you can not live on that without help. Realistically, it would take about 3 such incomes to support a family with children and that does not count the cost of child care or saving for college/retirement.
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Interesting)
Population growth? How does that affect it much? More people, more people need to provide services to a larger population.
Technology? To a certain extent I guess. As more fewer people can care for more other people. On the other hand, technology has provided new avenues for services. Instead of 2 small grocery shops there is now 1 large and efficient one, but next to it is a cell-phone dealer...
Free market and capitalism? yes. most certainly. here in norway the minimum wage, while absent in law, in reality is over $15/hr for unskilled labour. Even with a much higher tax-rate than the US that still leave plenty of money for a single person to support themselves frugaly... Yes, eating at a restaurant or even fast food frequently is prohibitly expensive here, but that's because even those people working there makea decent salary.
The low cost of many products and services in the US is based on those providing them being payed really low wages./P
Re:Let it begin (Score:5, Interesting)
> but most Americans complain about these things for perfectly rational reasons.
ha haha do you really believe that? No they don't, they do it for one of two reasons:
1. They are racist, even if they don't want to admit it (though to be fair, it's usually more ignorance than racism)
2. They are scared that they are going to lose their job to someone else.
I remember when we had a lot of upgrade related tedium that nobody at my company wanted to do, so we hired an Indian company do do it. The white trash people in my company (who, remember, didn't want to do the work), started making silly complaints:
"Doesn't India have like a 24 hour time difference?" No, and if they did, 24 hours would mean 0 hours. They don't mind working different hours to humor us, and it's better if they work off hours anyway, so they can get stuff done when we're sleeping.
"But do they speak English? Probably only Indian" - yeah, there's no language called Indian, brianiac. I guess they didn't know that the official language of instruction at many many places in India is English.
Also, the whole "Our Jobs" concept is bogus. There is work to be done. There is no place where god or satan defined which work is "our work". There's work to be done, and people willing to do it. If I live in New York, does that mean I should say people can't come from New Jersey to do it "My" New York work? I mean, get real. Bitching about people coming to the US to work will only result in the work being moved overseas instead, and the US will decrease in relevance.
Oh yeah, Americans love a free market, when it works to their advantage. As soon as it goes against your advantage, then you don't like it. Part of capitalism is that you will earn the market price. With the world shrinking, and a lot of people overseas willing to work harder than americans for less pay, that market value is falling for many basic jobs. That's the way it is, get used to it - or you could just bitch about it some more instead. There are ways to insulate yourself from it and prepare, though. I suggest you read "the world is flat" for more about that.
Anyway, as an American who had to go through a lot of hurdles to get a Visa somewhere else, I agree that the H1, and similar programs are not great - but in the opposite way. There should be no such requirement to get a Visa. That's just a hurdle to free market dynamics. I would vote that people should be able to move between countries in the future like they do states now, as the world shrinks. All the visa processing mainly just creates headaches for everyone. If anyone could simply move to the US or any other country they wanted (so long as they pay taxes, etc.), then a lot of people would come to the US, and realize that working at McDonalds there isn't any better than working at McDonalds in China or India, and go back. People with true skills would be able to get employed with less hassle, and if you ever got tired of bitching about how immigrants stole "your" jobs, you could go somewhere else and steal theirs. Some countries have taken a step in this direction (The Working Holiday program, which includes Canada, Autrailia, Japan, New Zealand, and a few others) - and it's been good for them in general. It hasn't lead to an explosion of illegal immigrants and the fall of society.
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Your post illustrates why capitalism and free market rhetoric is so bankrupt, it's not that we can't employ these people it's that there is no will to change the system.
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Part of the problem is geographical location. Call center work at $20/hour moves to Appalachia at under $10/hour, and you get to choose between moving and being unemployed. Most choose the layoff, but a few take the incentive to go train the n00bs. Often they return back where they were, because going from a $20/hr environment to $10/hr is a big culture shock, even if your wage stays the same.
Programming and other jobs can be virtual - I haven't worked with a team mate for 6 years now, barely meeting the
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Umm, they can.
and get paid real us wages for work in the us
The law already requires that. The abuses arise from the difficulty in defining the "real us wages for work in the us".
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try talking about changing the h1b visa laws so that h1b visa holders can change companies when they want to Umm, they can.
If the next company sponsors them, if they don't (it costs quite a bit) they can't. The worker also can't just up and quit his job like you and me either as they're isn't a grace period. Complaints usually end in a quick termination and then the person has a short period to be on the next flight back to home. Try filing a lawsuit while in a different country and not even being a citizen. It's a difficult situation. On the same note, I agree with making h1b's harder to get and more lax once you get them (aka
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Here is an even better idea: Lets change the immigration laws so that if someone wants to work in the US, they can quickly and easily acquire citizenship. I assert that anyone who wants to be an American citizen enough to ask to be, deserves to be. All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.
If we just grant these people citizenships, then we won't have to worry about the ethical ramifications of having multiple legal classes of workers in the country.
Re:Let it begin (Score:5, Insightful)
They should be able to quickly and easily get a citizen-track visa or green card, but if we just grant citizenship to everybody who wants it, people will just be citizens for as long as it is convenient - say, as long as it takes to acquire the knowledge to offshore a process or function. There is every reason to give green cards to hardworking people who want to live and die in America, but I can't fathom why we want guest workers - except to hold down domestic wages.
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Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Insightful)
Right. Just imagine what a mess we'd be in if 100 years ago anyone could become an American citizen just by showing up .. oh wait.
Be careful what you wish for. (Score:2, Interesting)
As it is, having a h1-b or having to physically move overseas or creating some sort of relationship over there, has kept us from sinking that low - but it will happen eventually. I don't see the World's economy g
Re:Let it begin (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is an even better idea: Lets change the immigration laws so that if someone wants to work in the US, they can quickly and easily acquire citizenship. I assert that anyone who wants to be an American citizen enough to ask to be, deserves to be. All of this isolationist shit should have died along with the 20th century.
Let me tell this to you as a foreigner.
You can't give citizenship out left and right. What makes your country is your culture (and I don't mean things like country music or apple pie here...), and if you just open your borders, you will be immediately swamped by third-worlders (like me) who want their piece of the quality-of-life pie. They don't care in the slightest how the pie came to be there in the first place, or what they have to do, long-term, to keep it - well, some will, but they are the minority. Most just want to have it.
Therefore, for immgiration to be productive, rather than detrimental, to your society, you need to make sure that, however many people you take in, they are assimilated into your culture - and that's your upper limit. And the relatively straightforward way to see how good the immigrant is assimilating is observing how they do when they're still on worker's visa. It also gives them time to learn the language, as well as basics of living in a new place (you'd be surprised to know how many things that are mundane to you are strange and alien to a newcomer), and see what the society there is really like, and decide whether they're really sure they can be a proper part of it.
To that extent, the process of acquiring permanent resident status (and eventually citizenship) from worker visa shouldn't be too simple - you need some gates there to control it. The biggest problem with your program as is is twofold. First, there are no established terms or guarantees. In most other countries that have similar programs in place, you are eligible to apply after working in the country for a certain specific period of time, and the process is straightforward in a sense that there are usually point-based systems with published evaluation criteria, so, for the most part, you know in advance whether you will be approved or not (unless you don't pass a security background check - but that isn't typical, though chances of a "false positive" are higher in today's terrorism-crazy world). The amount of time that processing of the application takes from the moment you submit it is also generally known fairly well.
In contrast, applying for a green card from H1-B is very much a gamble - you never know if they approve you or not, nor how long it takes - and it can take really, really long. I know of people waiting for 7+ years to get there; for comparison, in Canada, the whole process almost universally takes less than 3 years from the moment you first set foot in the country (including 1 year on worker visa so that you're eligible for fast-track permanent residence).
The second problem is just the one GP noted - that H1-Bs are severely disadvantaged, because they're tied to their employer, and, should he kick them out for any reason, they have to start packing right away - no chance to find another job (in practice, quite a few people actually break the law and overstay to do so - but this is also very much a gamble). Yeah, in theory, employers have to prove that the wage they offer to employee is above market average for this position - but there are many well-known tricks on how to legally do this for practically any number. And, once hired, the employer has both the carrot - raises - as well as the stick - termination of employment - at his full disposal.
If a citizen is denied a raise that he believes is rightly his, he can just quit and go look for a better job - and, if his assessment of his worth was correct, he'll find one. An H1-B just has to suck it up, because however bad he has it, it's usually still way better than what he'd get back home. Ditto for overtime.
And, of course, it screws both H1-Bs them
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"What makes your country is your culture (and I don't mean things like country music or apple pie here...), and if you just open your borders, you will be immediately swamped by third-worlders (like me) who want their piece of the quality-of-life pie."
This, of course, is already the story of America. Anyone who isn't a Native American is the descendant of people who wanted a better life. Those of us with families that have been here for centuries have no more right to be here than you do.
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Interesting)
This, of course, is already the story of America. Anyone who isn't a Native American is the descendant of people who wanted a better life.
It's not that simple - there's also this whole "freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" thing. Everyone wants a better life, but different people understand that differently, and U.S. has its own definition (that is rather unique in some ways).
Re:Let it begin (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, the "one nation under God" was added in the fifties by Americans. So apparently the current population of US citizens seems to have a severely different grasp of what a "better life" is than the renaissance men who founded the country in the first place.
I look at my own constitution and the state of my nation, and we're facing a very similar issue with Moroccan and Turkish immigrants who are Islamic. Some people want to put caps on immigration, some people want to outlaw Islam because they're clueless and scared.
In the mean time The Netherlands have, since the Unie van Utrecht was drafted and signed in 1579, a ~450 year old tradition of guaranteeing Freedom of Religion and Freedom of a man's Faculty which was continued in our constitutions until this day.
Culture is what you make of it. There's no such thing as a culture that is still alive *and* unchanging at the same time. In the mean time it is important we stay true to the Constitutional values that are the cornerstone of our respective nations.
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Cultures change, absolutely. But such changes are evolutionary in nature, and generally happen at the pace with which most members can keep up, or at least tolerate. What I was talking about is a rapid change which discards most, if not all, of the fundamentals, all at once, in a very brief period of time.
And, yes, naturally, any protective measures have to be respectful of the culture they're trying to protect, otherwise what's the point? If part of it is freedom of speech and freedom of religion, then tha
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Sheesh, where did your entitlement come from? Unless you're a fucking Native American, you'd best STFO and be happy that your ancestors illegally immigrated here lest you be born into some "awful non-US country."
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Your numbers are at least 50 years out of date. The only reason our (US) population growth is even positive is due to immigration. (direct immigration and children of first time immigrants) If zero population growth isn't sustainable, we have bigger problems than immigration to worry about.
The fact that your facts are so off makes me doubt the rest of your argument.
T
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Really? Let's see, I'm a newly minted H1B. My wages here are $15k above the wages that the role was offering (so I'm nicely into six figures before bonuses and stock). I've been coding for 20+ years, I've been brought in to upskill the team and bring those 20 years of experience to bear, I'm leading the development of a small product, pushing code quality, dealing with other teams, users and the wider open source community.
But then I'm British. So why don't you just say what you mean? That you don't rate
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Re:Excuse me? All criticism has been well earned. (Score:4, Insightful)
As much as you have a point, I've been working in IT for years as well and I've only met one British worker in the US, and I think he's got at least a green card because he married an American girl. Just about everyone else I have ever seen working H1-B is Indian and boy do they fuck them over. As a white man who actually speaks a dialect of English that is considered civilized in the US, you are going to have a decent time of it. The only thing you need to worry about is idiots making too many Limey jokes and telling you that your spelling is funny.
The Indians generally have to worry about unscrupulous companies that bring them in, keep them in the dark and then make sure that they work under conditions that you could consider appalling. I can't tell you the number of H1-B colleagues that I know who have at one time or another had to worry about losing their job and then having to deal with being packed off back to India 5 days later because they are a guest worker.
The problem with H1-B is that it allows more bad than good. Clearly we want to have some guest workers like you over here to provide actual technical expertise, but most of these guest workers are doing jobs that Americans could definitely do and not even getting paid decently for it. That may be because we don't have enough IT people available to work over here, but I suspect that the supposed lack of IT workers is more of a situation where those said workers actually want to be paid US wages and treated like professionals.
Of course, the H1-B problem is one where many of us feel we are being unemployed in favor of cheap labor, but it doesn't change the fact that the program is allowing the guest workers to get screwed too, if they happen to be from somewhere sufficiently backward. That's just bad all around, and I see no reason that it should be allowed to continue as it has been.
Re:Is the recording admissible? (Score:5, Informative)
Under Illinois law, you can only audio record if all parties are made aware of the recording. If this guy was recording surreptitiously, then he might be in for some legal trouble of his own, not to mention that the recording may or may not be admissible (IANAL).
If you RTFA you'd see a) it was NJ, not Illinois and b) On Feb. 4, the two men met him again at a restaurant and offered to pay $5,000 for him to recant his story, authorities said, adding the consultant had gone to federal authorities by then and was outfitted with a hidden recorder that captured every threat.
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There are two aspects of law that apply to audio recordings.
First, you can't use it as evidence (without having a warrant that says that a specific recording can be made). So, while you couldn't take it into court, you certainly could use it to go to the police and convince them very effectively to investigate further. And if the criminals are using such amateurish standover tactics, then odds are pretty good that basic police investigating will be enough to charge them soon afterwards.
Secondly, it's an inv
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How about the enabling law firms too? (Score:2)
Have that apply to firms like Grigsby & Cohen(known for their hostility to citizens in hiring practices) that as well.