A Look Into China's Web Censorship Program 125
kev0153 writes "MSNBC is offering a good article explaining some of the details behind China's web censorship program. 'Google's face-off with Beijing over censorship may have struck a philosophical blow for free speech and encouraged some Chinese Netizens by its sheer chutzpah, but it doesn't do a thing for Internet users in China. Its more lasting impact may lie in the global exposure it has given to the Chinese government's complex system of censorship – an ever-shifting hodgepodge of restrictions on what information users can access, which Web tools they can use and what ideas they can post.'"
Impact (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure many citizens are content to accept censorship, because the impact is minimal. It isn't worth risking upheaval if they feel they don't have much to gain.
As fewer major players operate in China, the citizens will realize the effects of censorship more.
Doing so encourages the citizens of China to push for an end to censorship.
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Re:Impact (Score:5, Insightful)
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Even worse than Beck/Olbermann/whoever you hate is Fred Phelps, who basically cheers on the death of every American, every Canadian, every Swede, etc. In fact, he seems to just cheer on the death of anyone he can.
crowds for counter-censoring China censors (Score:2)
Re:Impact (Score:5, Interesting)
What is more dangerous?
1) Knowing that your government censors certain information and that the gov't news is biased, as most Chinese people do?
or
2) Having media that act essentially as political arms of the government, and subtly alter what they feed you as "truth" so that the average citizen believes that the news is actually factual?
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(1) is obviously worse, because it assumes that (2) is not a subset of (1). The citizens believing what is "fed to them as 'truth'" can exist with or without outright government censorship.
You are falsely illustrating the choice between government censorship with the citizens knowing exactly what is censored, versus no government censorship with the citizens unknowingly ignorant. Citizens can be unknowingly ignorant with or without government censorship, so it is crazy to say that the censorship is benefi
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there is an innate distrust of the media.
I think you have accurately described the broader issues here and I would agree for the most part. But I have to protest that the vast majority of people in America have lost completely or at least have a crippled sense of distrust for the mass media.
The fact that the most popular "news" agencies are the most biased (pick your side here both are equally bad) and yet they are the most popular and taken word for word should be enough to show that the distrust is lost.
Re:Impact (Score:5, Insightful)
You don’t need censorship. Your social engineers — which you call “mainstream media” — are much better. You don’t have as much censorship, but your perceived reality is just as twisted. (Oh, and bleeping out some of your words definitely is censorship. And shows how well the mind-twisting works.)
We here in Germany aren’t a bit better by the way. I think the population is even more gullible since they still think that the mainstream media is really trustworthy.
It’s as art, to twist the minds in a way that makes opposing statements look like confirmation of your own statements. And if you approach it like science, you can become really good at it.
Mass social engineering is the censorship of the 21st century. It’s the art of creating botnets made of human minds.
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It's the art of creating botnets made of human minds.
Computers can be turned into botnet zombies only because they have no will of their own to begin with. Arguing that humans can likewise be "programmed" presumes that people are purely deterministic, and cannot make independent decisions. Even if you believe that's true, it raises serious issues from an ethical standpoint; human rights are based on the assumption that humans have free will.
In other words, arguing that the media constitutes mind control is the same as arguing that there are no inherent hum
How do you know that YOUR reality is superior? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm really sick of supercilious observers proclaiming that THEY know the one, true, reality and can therefore detect that the mainstream media are leading the masses by the nose. Those ineffably superior observers are, of course, immune to manipulation, and demonstrate their superiority by pointing out that fact. Give me a break.
The real beauty of free speech is that every point of view, distorted this way and that, to a greater or lesser degree, is available for people to compare and choose from. That
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Except that Glenn Beck works for Fox, and Fox is the mouthpiece of the Republican party and at this point you actually have to wonder whether Fox exists to push forward Republican agenda or whether Republicans exist to push forward Fox's agenda. It is irrelevant what the laws say, Fox is above all of that.
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Except that Glenn Beck works for Fox, and Fox is the mouthpiece of the Republican party
[Citation Needed]
you actually have to wonder whether NBC/CBS/ABC/CNN exists to push forward Democratic agenda or whether Democrats exist to push forward NBC/CBS/ABC/CNN's agenda.
I improved the "Truthiness(TM)" of that for you.
Everyone is aware these days that the "lame-stream media" is in the pockets of Progressive Democrats and this administration. To be any more in their pocket they'd need pom-poms and a donkey as a bro
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Except that in the US we do not have a lot of censorship.
Well that's the thing - how do you know? indeed, if you *did* know that there was a significant degree of censorship, then it wouldn't be censorship in the first place, would it?
Just sayin'
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Censorship Program? (Score:2)
google leaving does help chinese citizens (Score:2, Interesting)
Google leaving China does do something for Chinese citizens -- it makes them wonder why Google pulled out. The Chinese govt. will have a difficult time offering a convincing explanation that isn't embarrassing. More convincing explanations will be found elsewhere on the internet, leading more people to distrust the Chinese government and start getting their news elsewhere.
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Google leaving China does do something for Chinese citizens -- it makes them wonder why Google pulled out.
China is good at manipulation. They have published stories of their own named Google is not god. [xinhuanet.com]
The The Chinese govt. will have a difficult time offering a convincing explanation that isn't embarrassing. More convincing explanations will be found elsewhere on the internet, leading more people to distrust the Chinese government and start getting their news elsewhere.
There is no elsewhere for news for the 99% who are afraid or unable to bypass the restrictions. Governments can and do that, in any country.
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> Google isn't popular (or profitable) in China and won't be missed
I am so tired of this line of crap. Google had 33% of the market and was making millions. Almost any company in any industry would fucking KILL for a 33% market share.
If the Chinese want to lie to themselves, fine, but don't sell those toxic lies here.
Re:google leaving does help chinese citizens (Score:4, Insightful)
Google grew to a 33% share, despite the government encouraging users to use Baidu, the fact that Baidu was well established before Google in China, and that all government employees use Baidu. That rapid growth is pretty impressive.
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...despite the government encouraging users to use Baidu,... and that all government employees use Baidu....
This is BS. The government does NOT encourage users to any search engines. It's their free choice of which to use. And who told you all government employees use Baidu? Did you just make this up?
a government that fears its own people is weak (Score:3, Insightful)
governments work when they rule by consensus. but when they need coercion to rule, they are weak, and their days are numbered. when, not if, the chinese economy takes a downturn (no economy grows forever), the people will inevitably grumble. but if they can't even grumble, it's not "harmonious", we shall begin to see an unraveling of faith in the government, like we see in tehran
why does the chinese government fear the words of its own people?
it lays bare the fact that their agenda is not the agenda of their own people
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The problem is that the government doesn't fear its people enough to treat them well.
what a giant load of horseshit (Score:3, Insightful)
do you treat the people in your life well because... you FEAR them?!
that's not how the world works, nor basic human nature
either you're momentarily horribly wrong due to transient serious brain failure, or you're psychologically screwed up, to ever write anything like that
Re:what a giant load of horseshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Original poster's point is that a government that doesn't fear consequences as a result of mistreating the governed will do pretty much what it wants. There is no other reasonable motivator. Altruism in government is seen even more rarely than in everyday life, and I'm hoping you won't try to make the point that my government loves me.
your government doesn't fear you (Score:3, Insightful)
if you live in a democracy
there's nothing to fear
it actively seeks to represent the middle ground. in this way it gains power. fear is never part of the process. its the difference between ruling by attractive force, and ruling by repulsive force
yes, as you say: it's not love, your government doesn't love you. but to even contemplate this absurdity says a lot about your thought processes. at best, you are offering a strawman. at worst you only understand simpleminded ideas of what government is. a democracy
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the usa is a democracy (Score:2)
saying "its a republic" and thinking this nullifies that fact is like saying "its a chicken, so its not a bird"
its a democracy that rules with the consent of the popular will, of which i am a part of
if you don't believe or understand this simple obvious fact, you're some sort of horribly sheltered and propagandized moron
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In rare cases, individuals, even in government, transcend that. Howev
what a stunted way to think about your world (Score:2)
do you go around thinking the only reason people interact with you cooperatively is due to fear of what you will do if they don't cooperate?
you have some sort of psychological problem. human nature is not this stunted. believe it or not, there are other motivations in this world
at best, you're paranoid. at worst, you're psychotic
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do you go around thinking the only reason people interact with you cooperatively is due to fear of what you will do if they don't cooperate?
you have some sort of psychological problem. human nature is not this stunted. believe it or not, there are other motivations in this world
at best, you're paranoid. at worst, you're psychotic
He must be familiar with history, psychology, sociology, and basically the study of anything related to humans.
this is what i am refuting: (Score:2)
the idea that the only thing that motivates government decision making is fear
do you agree with that idea or not?
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the idea that the only thing that motivates government decision making is fear
do you agree with that idea or not?
No, the parent is just saying that fear is what keeps government officials honest. The lower officials want to move up, and they want to keep their jobs. Their fear of being laid off or their careers stagnating is what encourages them to do well. Higher officials (Congressmen, presidents, etc) are afraid of losing their power. When their fear of their constituents' power dissipates, their attitudes and decisions are adjusted. Bush was not afraid of the American people after 9-11, as Americans were very supp
you say no (Score:2)
and then every other word you say boils down to "the only thing that motivates government decision making is fear"
so you're answer is currently incoherent
answer my question: is fear the ONLY THING that motivates government decision making
yes or no
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and then every other word you say boils down to "the only thing that motivates government decision making is fear"
so you're answer is currently incoherent
answer my question: is fear the ONLY THING that motivates government decision making
yes or no
No, my answer is perfectly coherent. The government is not a being. The government is made up of people. People are motivated by many things. Fear is one of these things. If the individuals who make up the government had no fear of the People, then they would cease to act in the People's interests. Their decisions are motivated by many factors, but their honesty is derived almost from their fear.
"honesty derived from fear" (Score:2)
wow
have you never know what it means to have integrity in your entire life?
what a sad cynical stunted view of the world you have
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incredibly wrong (Score:2)
it is entirely true you can be too optimistic and trusting
it is also true, to the same level of failure, to be pessimistic and pathologically untrustworthy of other men
to believe that fear, and fear alone is what motivates man, whether individually or in groups, is pure fail on your part. it is a stunted broken empty cynicism, devoid of intelligence or experience, and destroys your ability to thrive in the social sphere of life
its not realism, its full on retard
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to believe that fear, and fear alone is what motivates man, whether individually or in groups, is pure fail on your part. it is a stunted broken empty cynicism, devoid of intelligence or experience, and destroys your ability to thrive in the social sphere of life
I did not say that. I said their honesty is derived almost entirely from their fear. In fact, there was a /. story recently on how politicians are better liars. Let's face it: people who obtain positions of power are not the most moral people. I'm guessing you support the recent Health Care Bill. Am I right?
let's put it this way (Score:2)
to believe that honesty only comes from fear is completely contrary to the experience of anyone who has had any normal experience with other human beings beyond the age of 10. to believe politics is some magical subset of human behavior where this is true is a further idiotic fallacy
the simple fact is, you have to be sheltered and socially retarded to write the clueless things you do
let's put it this way: to believe the majority act with nobility is a deluded state of stupidity
to the same degree, to believe
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on what basis (Score:2)
do you erroneously believe you are better in touch with reality than myself?
all i see in your words are a low iq form of cynicism
you even call yourself "orwellian", which speaks volumes about your ignorant prejudices, as if that tired fairy tale has anything to do with our reality, which is more little brother than big brother
you're a typical stupid tool
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let me tell you about orwell, moronic tool (Score:2)
i know the moronic big brother meme is popular here, but this meme is a completely intellectually bankrupt idea
the 1984 meme has gotten to the point where "something bad happened in society" (--insert creative reasoning--) "therefore, we are becoming orwellian"
orwell wrote a pleasant fiction a long time ago. it was good criticism of totalitarian societies at the time. like: ussr. not democracies (you know, governments accountable to voters?) like the uk or the usa. (also reference "animal farm")
so it made i
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no (Score:2)
just your intellectual superior and disgusted with pathetic lowest common denominator tools like you in this world
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the people who rule us (Score:2)
are human beings. why would they have only a small facet of human psychology as their motivation?
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but it is paranoia (Score:2)
to think of the ruled as nothing but a mob, all the time. it does act like a mob, in sections, and at times. but to view the worst of group dynamics as the status quo is intellectual failure on your part, a stunted cynical way to view human nature and good governance
have you never known of the concept of integrity in your whole sad life?
i am arguing with people (Score:2)
who believe is fear is the only motivation
i am saying that plenty of other emotions, both negative and positive, motivates individuals, groups, organizations and their leaders
to believe otherwise, is, indeed, unintelligent cynicism, stunted and inexperienced in life or history
100% solid truth
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Roman Emperors had a personal guard of about a thousand men. A lot of the time, they did their job pretty well. They also occasionally kidnapped and ransomed the emperor or just outright murdered him because they didn't like the way things were going.
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the chinese government delivers economic growth (Score:4, Interesting)
and so the people are not about to second guess it, as this has dramatically improved their lives
in the 1970s, we could have an argument about china avoiding capitalism, and you would have said: "who cares, the people still support the government"
but the government, wisely, embraced capitalism, jettisoning communism, leading them to where they are today
the same choices apply to democracy and freedom of expression
eventually, growth slows or declines, its inevitable: no economy grows forever. when that happens, the MAJORITY will grumble, and they will run headlong into their own government (no grumbling allowed!) then what? is the picture you paint of a mostly placated populace still relevant in your depictions?
now, the government, in its wisdom, could embrace freedom of expression and democracy, at some point, before the capitalist ride to prosperity peaks. and they thereby install pressure relief valves in society, and thus china is truly modern, and stable, and i would embrace such a china
but they also could wed themselves to continued absolute control of all expression and decide everything by elite class
and chinese society will begin to fall apart, and i will continue my disapproval
Re:a government that fears its own people is weak (Score:4, Insightful)
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I've talked about this with Chinese people - outside China, and they gave me the strong impression of acceptance too. Further, it wasn't just that they want stability as such. That's not quite right - they want progress.
China is of course a country with wide-spread famine in living memory, abject poverty too. The impression given to me is that democracy simply is not a priority, not even amongst young Chinese who studied in the west. Continuing to elevate China to prosperity is what they view as the number
Chinese government's "complex" as to what passes (Score:3, Interesting)
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1place.com.au works here in Guangdong China just fine.
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fine in Beijing
We're headed that way, too. Just wait till (Score:2, Insightful)
... our Government in the United States forces it's notion of "net neutrality" [redstate.com] upon us.
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Of course, such class warfare is old hat to a little left-wing organization called Free Press"
From your article. Would this be Murdoch's "free press"?
Reset Packets (Score:2)
if an Internet surfer in China searches for...a banned and harshly suppressed religious group — the firewall responds by sending a reset packet to his or her computer that results in the display of a default error page
These so called 'reset packets' are reminiscent of the days of ATH0++ N0 C4RR13R....so thats what happened to AOL, they migrated to china where dialup is still accepted! PRCOL FTW!
Judgement packet... (Score:3, Interesting)
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That episode would be The Wire [memory-alpha.org]. Season 2, Episode 22.
(It's spelled Garak, btw.)
I've always disliked MSNBC, and here is why (Score:1, Insightful)
To be sure, most of China’s 384 million Internet users log on for mundane reasons that don’t challenge the limits of free speech. A lot of Chinese citizens also accept the notion that stability and continued economic growth depend on government controls, including censorship.
WTF? Does this ring 1984 to anybody? "Sure its oppression, but its okay. The people prefer it this way." What kind of asinine journalism is that?!? It seems to me much more likely that the people just don't dare speak up against it, rather than that they are willing and happy to be controlled by Big Brother.
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As a Chinese I agree that MSNBC is biased. Although I believe we should wake up by ourselves, I don't like outsiders to say we are ok with intellectual oppression.
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Re:I've always disliked MSNBC, and here is why (Score:4, Informative)
So in order to be good journalism, it has to say what you want to hear ? Really ? I live in China and I wouldn't say that Chinese are willing and happy to be controlled, but most of them don't care that much to be honest. They are not very interested in politics, don't visit much Facebook or Youtube ...
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Well, at least they can get LOLCAT in China...I think.
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4chan is also, regrettably, available.
How to beat the Chinese FW (Score:4, Interesting)
Confusicanism's perspective on censorship (Score:5, Informative)
Confucius, one of the most influential philosophers in Chinese history. He has something to say about censorship and the role that the government should play in communicating with the people that I think makes what the Chinese are trying to accomplish a bit clearer:
Source [libertyfund.org]
So notice how Chinese censorship not only applies to political messages but also to non-political messages that are deemed to not be representative of virtue. They shutdown people who have stock tip blogs, who are writing sex gossip columns, who become popular in signing and dancing competitions and professional sports culture. They don't want people who the government considers to be not good role models for the people to achieve any degree of fame. The government would never permit the kind of gangster/mafia glorifying culture in China which is so popular in many parts of the rest of the world no matter how non-poltiical.
BTW, I urge anyone who wants to understand China better to read Confucius. He was writing in about 200BCE, before China had any contact at all with the West so in order to fully appreciate it, one has to temporarily disregard everything one is familiar with in the western traditions and carefully digest his words.
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kind of like in the usa?
it is pretty easy to conclude the feds do not have the mandate of heaven
you might figure that china has a republic, but the usa has a constitutional republic. we really have not favored kings for some time. what we do have is the freedom to do some effective political organizing and vaguely reasonable elections. If we lose either of those it is a different story, but at the moment, if things are bad enough, there will be population-driven changes. Maybe not good changes, but cha
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Well back then, if a leader treated their subjects like shit he typically got deposed (or decapitated). Nowadays very few people in comfortable, first-world countries have the balls to do something like that no matter how necessary it is.
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Confucianism is a very "do what you're told" philosophy. People who have positions of authority are told to be fair, and their followers are told to follow them mostly unquestioningly.
In a modern perspective, this seems a bit strange. You point out one flaw: It obviously only works if everyone follows it (i.e. that leaders are actually fair). But this is true of many cultural mores: The Golden Rule (do unto others as you wish others would do unto yourself), for instance, clearly fails when you're interactin
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A few choice quotes from the parent:
But imagine a school in which fights occurred regularly, where unpopular kids were bullied without consequences, where students outright disregarded teachers and did whatever they wanted and never learned anything. No one would suggest more freedom as a solution. Confucius's philosophies in that context were basically a great big "Hey, guys, what if we all just behaved? Maybe if we work together instead of against each other, we can accomplish something great!" And to that end, it worked fairly well.
When I lived in China, the problems I had to deal with were mostly along the lines of companies trying to save money by putting dangerous substances in food, companies subjecting employees to bad working conditions, people spitting and littering everywhere, extremely skilled pickpockets, people trying to scam me out of money - are these really problems that can be solved by less government control?
The only negative consequences of government control most people in China see is that a few websites are blocked. So even if it's true that China needs more freedom and human rights (which I agree they do), it's difficult to convince the average citizen of that, it isn't as clear-cut that that's the most important thing they should be worrying about at the moment.
Someone mod this guy up. I travel on business to China and India, and they present an interesting contrast in how freedom is not necessarily foremost in the minds of everyday locals. As an American traveling in Beijing, I was very aware of web censorship and continually reminded about how I should take care where I surfed when simple things like feedproxy.google.com are blocked (thus making all my freshmeat links in my Slashdot home page useless. No such freedom worries i
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Good post. I think what China stories often reveal on Slashdot is the gap between China and the US in the cultural attitude towards government. In the US, there is a founding principle of skepticism towards government. It is seen somewhat as a necessary evil but one to be minimised so that the people's rights are not abridged. That is, I think in the US it is celebrated and inculcated in the people that personal freedom is the greatest of all rights and principles, to be interfered with only on overwhelming
Re:Confusicanism's perspective on censorship (Score:4, Informative)
The first paragraph you quote is simply saying "you should put the upright in power because people respect upright, not power".
The qustion part of your second quote is more like "How to cause people to reverence and loyal to their ruler, and be strive". Note that the last point is not about virtue, but striveness.
The answer part of your second quote is "Act solemnly, and they will respect you. Let them filial to their parent/anybody-above-them-in-family, and let them be kind to their kids, then they will be loyal to you. Let the competent and good to teach the once who are not (yet), and they will be strive."
There is nothing here to do with censorship. In fact, confucius lived in the free-est age in China when different kind of philosophy just started to flourish, trying to find a better way to rule good and end hundreds of years of endless war. And he is the one who bring all the knowledge that were held in the hand of nobles to the people. With just a small string of dry meat, he'll teach you all you can learn from him. His teaching style also encourage his students to discuss with him whatever they see or thought of in their journey around different countries in the then China. So basically, it's quite opposite to censorship.
Unlike the western world back then, China never really do any real censorship ( with a few exceptions). In the culture of Chinese, people may just pretend they can't see, or just talk as "entertainment" if you do something that is not "right" in our the culture but is not breaking the most important values "visibly" or "publicly" or in more formal situations.
For example, your comment about "writing sex gossip columns". China in most time in history not only has books with drawings about different "style" of sex positions. We also have private brothel and government opened once. Scholar etc. going to those places are considered not having good practise, but since it doesn't touch the most important stuff like filial to parents, people more "follow the rule" may just talk about it. But never see it as very serious. And in any period of time, there are always differnt schools of confucius taking different view among themselves or in favourite or against preious confucius scholars. They openly debate about differnet views etc. Later on, colleges are form at many places allowing schoolars to discuss and further learn or develope. At the time, colleges often represents schools of thought and they do have a relatively strong political power because traditionally, most government officals are selected through national wide exams and are often part of a certain school of confucius.
So in fact, censorship has no relationship to confusius. Chinese culture's degree of acceptance in diff things is very high as long as it doesn't touch family matters (e.g. filial) and country matter (e.g. loyalty). Otherwise, you wouldn't have buddism in China since there was actually a serious discussion among the top officers during the Dynasty of Tang because some practise of buddism is against some Chinese traditions. But they finally let it pass and decide it's up to the people to decide if they accept it or not.
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there was about 20 years, probably in the 1400's, when the vatican was completely accepting of confusianism. one could think china was soon to be Christian. some european nasties screwed it up on purpose.
Re:Confusicanism's perspective on censorship (Score:4, Interesting)
A leader is best when people barely know that he exists, not so good when people obey and acclaim him, worst when they despise him. Fail to honor people, They fail to honor you. But of a good leader, who talks little, when his work is done, his aims fulfilled, they will all say, "We did this ourselves."
As restrictions and prohibitions are multiplied in the Empire, the people grow poorer and poorer. When the people are subjected to overmuch government, the land is thrown into confusion. When the people are skilled in many cunning arts, strange are the objects of luxury that appear. The greater the number of laws and enactments, the more thieves and robbers there will be. Therefore the Sage says: "So long as I do nothing, the people will work out their own reformation. So long as I love calm, the people will right themselves. If only I keep from meddling, the people will grow rich."
If the government is sluggish and tolerant, the people will be honest and free from guile. If the government is prying and meddling, there will be constant infraction of the law. Is the government corrupt? Then uprightness becomes rare, and goodness becomes strange.
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But I digress for as Magrite pointed out 'Ceci n'est pas une pipe'
There is something to do (Score:2)
python downloads blocked (Score:1)
china firewall exploits (Score:2)
Bigger News (Score:1)
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Do you have a sudden urge to purchase a copy of "Catcher in the Rye"?
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Title: Can Obama sustain success of big week?
Subtitle: The president got victories on healt
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Sorry, no, it's not. Fox, too, ran their daily "Bush, great president or the greatest?" segments and called anyone who didn't agree with him a freedom hating traitor.
Msnbc then started to notice that there was a market for a FoxNews of the Left, Olbermann got his daily pseudo-intellectual vitriolic rants and everything else followed.
All they did after th