One Quarter of Germans Happy To Have Chip Implants 170
justice4all writes "If it means shorter lines at the supermarket, a quarter of Germans would be happy to have a chip implanted under their skin. The head of Germany's main IT trade body told the audience at the opening ceremony of the CeBIT technology exhibition that one in four of his countrymen are happy to have a microchip inserted for ID purposes."
He looks like Gargamel (Score:4, Funny)
“We just carried out a survey and one out of four people are happy to have a chip planted under their skin for very trivial uses for example to pass gates more quickly at a discotheque for example and to be able to pay for things more quickly in the supermarket,” said Scheer. “The wilingness of the population to accept our technology is certainly given.”
"Bwa-haha-haha," Scheer continued. "After this, world domination will be within my grasp!"
Pie and cake were served soon afterwards.
Re:He looks like Gargamel (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't find their "survey" at BITKOM http://www.bitkom.org/en/Default.aspx [bitkom.org], but i'm wondering how many Germans were polled (four?). Most Germans I know would not want this AT ALL.
Re:He looks like Gargamel (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. It would seem 3 out of 4 Germans do not want this.
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They'll just get them inserted into the left forearm.
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Really?
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I would prefer not to get screwed in that location, thank you.
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How bad must the supermarket lines be for anyone to answer in the affirmative?
Why would a prosperous country like Germany have so few supermarkets that there were lines at all, other than the day before a holiday?
Now street muggers would have to carry scalpels? If your money is in your wallet they take the wallet. When your money is in your arm...???
Bad survey results (Score:2)
The respondents thought "chips" meant fried potatoes.
Not an informed choice. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah. Did you hear about that idea the Microsoft VP had? A way to improve internet security, you should vote yes!
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I think you are assuming way too much ignorance.
Maybe they just don't worry as much about government interfering in their lives as people in the US do.
Reminds me of an episode of the Britcom Yes Minister.
The EU wanted to issue universal ID cards and the Minister was freaking out because he was sure that the people of the UK would never stand for it.
When he was asked wouldn't the other EU nations put up a stink about it he said.
"The Germans will love it and the Spanish and Italians will ignore it. Only the B
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Close
On the EU ID card:
"the Germans will love it, the French will ignore it and the Italians and the Irish will be too chaotic to enforce it. Only the British will resent it."
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Thanks It was a long time since I had seen that one.
Cell phones and credit cards. (Score:2)
If you would have asked people in the 50's if they would prefer DDT sprayed on their crops to kill the insects, creating cheaper food. They would have said yes. They didn't know the consequences, and were only presented with the benefits. As is the case here. How many of those who said they would be willing fully understand the security issues associated with that choice?
I think people aren't completely ignorant of the implications of such a device, nor are they necessarily more likely to carry irrational beliefs that the device is safe than irrational fears of phantom threats. It doesn't matter. People will willingly sacrifice the distant risk of tyranny for day-to-day convenience, and as much as I disagree with that decision, I can't call it an irrational one.
After all, if I asked you to carry around a device that would let the government track where you are at all time
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After all, if I asked you to carry around a device that would let the government track where you are at all times with little more than a warrant, would you accept? [...] It's called a cell phone.
You can turn a cell phone off, or decide to leave it at home if you're going somewhere you'd rather people didn't know about. You can't turn off an RFID tag, nor can you leave it at home if it's implanted.
Similarly with your credit card: if you're buying something you'd rather not be traced back to you, you can j
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At the moment.
Singapore, anyone ?: the country that is trying to abolish cash. Everything, repeat EVERYTHING, has to be brought on credit cards. At least, that's the story that I've heard, and I'd welcome comment from anyone who has actually lived or visited there.
Of course, if the Singaporean authorities get their way, but people still want to use cash (when going whore-bashing, or buyi
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Singapore, anyone ?: the country that is trying to abolish cash
[citation needed]
We're talking about the country that prints the largest denominated banknote in the world. A quick examination of the situation suggests that cash is still legal tender in singapore (i.e. if you owe somebody money, they are legally required to accept it in cash), and not only that but most businesses in singapore will apparently accept brunei dollars (which have equal value to singapore dollars) and vice versa.
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Ah, you read the Wikipedia articles too. Well done. /. have any Singaporean correspondents?
Yes, citation is needed, which is why I asked for information from someone on the ground.
I've heard rumours over the years from various sources, but nothing particularly authoritative. I suspect that it's one of those ideas that were talked about in the past, but got quietly dropped in the Asian Financial Crises of (IIRC) 1998-2000.
Does
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Ah, you read the Wikipedia articles too. Well done.
Also searched for legislation, which is a good basic approach to take in English-speaking countries. :)
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What fucking German hasn't heard of World War II, the last time they thought a totalitarian state was a good idea?
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Considering that DDT was in point of fact not harmful and had wiped out malaria, I still say Yes!
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I think it was actually an informed choice and the question was just poorly worded. They said 1/4 of Germans said they were okay with something being inserted into them. Maybe they just did not say what?
According to my research on the Internet, that percentage is probably much higher.
Re:Not an informed choice. (Score:4, Insightful)
I fully understand the security issues of walking around with bits of plastic and paper in my pockets, relying on them to pay for stuff, identify myself, etc. Given the choice, I'd prefer an single electronic chip, thank you very much. If you're in front of cavemen about to "invent" fire, will you try to scare them off by telling them about the dangers of arson, death by fumes and the great fire of London?
Do you fully understand? Really? How many times have you had your credit card number stolen? Oh, that few, huh? Really? It's never happened yet? 15 years you've been using them and nothing? Wow. Yeah, sounds like it's a real issue...
And the "single-chip" theory for ID purposes will become bullshit just as soon as someones tag is "cloned", and we'll all be forced to provide a picture ID again.
Sorry, this is nothing more tech for the sake of tech, with the side "benefit" of tracking and controlling the masses.
Hell, we get all defensive when we get targeted spam that proves that someone was tracking where you surf online, and you think it won't be ten times worse when they can track your every move?
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How did you get from "chip implant" to "track every move"? The read range for many RFID technologies is measured in centimeters, not meters. (It varies by frequency and other factors.) If tracking every move meant "place a reader in every doorknob" then maybe I'd buy your argument.
On the flip side, are you one of the 99% of people who carries a cell phone? Not only is your every movement known already, regardless of your proximity to anything but a cell tower that could be miles away, but is instantly a
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yeah, it would definitely be impossible to put a reader in every business' doorway and track people that way.
Re:Not an informed choice. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll say it again: if you are one of the people carrying cell phones, quit complaining about RFID tags "tracking you". That little candy-bar-sized transmitter clipped to your belt is actively broadcasting your location every single minute to a computer up to 40,000,000 cm away, and the phone network is making your location instantly globally available to anyone with the proper authority. Not only that, but the phone network is RECORDING your location even when not asked, so they can correlate your previous locations for as far back as they keep a history.
These complainers are screaming "I AM RIGHT HERE!!!" at the top of their lungs every single minute, with a blinking strobe light mounted on top of their tinfoil hats; the phone company is writing their location down every time they hear them; and yet they're afraid that someone is going to spend thousands of dollars outfitting a building with secret door readers just to see who comes in, never mind that cameras are already pointed at those doors. Right.
"I need a perspective check on Aisle 1, please."
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You can leave your cell phone behind. Can you leave your arm at home?
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You can leave your cell phone behind. Can you leave your arm at home?
Strange you should mention that, sir, we've just this month received a shipment of Cyb-Arm 2.0s. The shoulder mount unscrews and as you can see, you can replace the fingers with spanner, egg beater, vacuum cleaner, hedge trimmer, or chess set extensions.
Hardly anyone experiences life-threatening seizures nowadays, sir. And all those stories about 'zombie armnets' are totally overblown by the media.
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I'll say it again: if you are one of the people carrying cell phones, quit complaining about RFID tags "tracking you". That little candy-bar-sized transmitter clipped to your belt is actively broadcasting your location every single minute to a computer up to 40,000,000 cm away, and the phone network is making your location instantly globally available to anyone with the proper authority. Not only that, but the phone network is RECORDING your location even when not asked, so they can correlate your previous locations for as far back as they keep a history.
PROVE (in a courtroom) that it was ME holding or even using the cell phone in question.
Now try that same trick with an RFID implant.
I rest my case on the differences here. Plausible Deniability is a hell of a lot easier to stand on in only ONE of those scenarios.
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That little candy-bar-sized transmitter clipped to your belt is actively broadcasting your location every single minute to a computer up to 40,000,000 cm away
40,000,000 centimeters? Is that something like 400 kilometers?
That's either a pretty big cell size, or a very small Internet.
The Off-Switch (Score:2)
if you are one of the people carrying cell phones, quit complaining about RFID tags "tracking you".
Yes, but...
Cell Phone:
- Turn the phone off, disconnect the battery, enjoy a few relax moments of complete freedom (from being observed, but also from being harassed by phone calls...)
Implanted RFID chip :
- You'll have to saw your arm off to achieve similar result.
- Or use a full body tin-foil suit.
The first one is done regularly by people wanting some privacy and moments of silence from time to time.
The second one is pretty much fucking impractical.
In fact, bad control of software security aside*, and with
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How DARE you bring such a reasonable opinion to an otherwise irrational debate. You must be new here.
Yes, come speak to me about "reason" again after you're informed by your employer that they are converting your insurance over to the new Government-ran plan, and Article V, subsection 3, fine-print line 174 on page 5,642 "clearly" states that "RFID-implants are mandatory for all members"...
My option to carry a cell phone today and subject myself to legally-deniable tracking is exactly that...my OPTION.
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How did you get from "chip implant" to "track every move"? The read range for many RFID technologies is measured in centimeters, not meters.
Ah, not true. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/goodtogo/ [wa.gov]
Read range is a function of power. Improvements in technology may increase read ranges for tags. Generally, the read range of a tag is limited to the distance from the reader over which the tag can draw enough energy from the reader field to power the tag. Tags may be read at longer ranges than they are designed for by increasing reader power.
The limit on read distance then becomes the signal-to-noise ratio of the signal reflected from the tag back to the rea
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Of course it's true. Please re-read what I said (that you even quoted!) The read range for many RFID technologies is measured in centimeters, not meters. Not all RFID technologies can be picked up at 21 meters.
Yes, I am fully aware that certain types of RFID tags are capable of being detected at 21 meters or more. Near-field RFID, however, has a max range of 1 meter or so (commercial near field RF readers claim less than a 50 cm range.) An implantable tag could use a technology that travels far less th
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Please re-read what I posted.
Reading distance is a function of the reader, its power, its sensitivity. It has nothing to do with the tag.
Any RIFD tag can be read at distances far greater than advertised.
The US State Department had no sooner stated that US passports could not be read at a distance of more than a foot when someone parked a van on a street and published their ability to read passport numbers at 30 feet as people walked down the street. http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/02/02/at-what-point-do-yo [crunchgear.com]
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The read range for many RFID technologies is measured in centimeters, not meters.
Reading the debate in this part of the thread, I have to disagree. My view is that it's not even a hard problem to extend the range at which an RFID is read (an RFID which can be read at 10 cm by a "normal" reader, can be read at 10 meters by a reader with 40 dB more gain). A bigger antenna, more sensitive receivers, and/or more power is all you need. For example, a store could station antennas at choke points (store entrances and internal places) or turn its entire ceiling into a phased array, allowing the
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How did you get from "chip implant" to "track every move"? The read range for many RFID technologies is measured in centimeters, not meters. (It varies by frequency and other factors.) If tracking every move meant "place a reader in every doorknob" then maybe I'd buy your argument.
And you act like you're going to actually get a vote on when, where, and how much it's going to cost to put in the State/Government funded RFID network "mesh", or even be made aware that it's in operation.
And enough of the RFID range bullshit. I think we've pretty much squashed that "theory" at DEFCON many times now.
On the flip side, are you one of the 99% of people who carries a cell phone? Not only is your every movement known already, regardless of your proximity to anything but a cell tower that could be miles away, but is instantly accessible by law enforcement (and who knows who else.) By carrying the phone, you are a willful participant in your own tracking.
Perhaps your tin-foil hat is just a bit maladjusted.
The difference between a cell phone in my pocket and an RFID-chip planted inside my body? That's a simple one, and it's called "Plausible Deniability". You can prove that a cell phone is oper
Re:Not an informed choice. (Score:5, Insightful)
So why not keep that single chip in your watch band, clothing or a ring on your finger? What is so attractive about embedding it in your body?
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So why not keep that single chip in your watch band, clothing or a ring on your finger? What is so attractive about embedding it in your body?
It's a security issue. You're using the chip to identify yourself, and authorising anybody in posession of it to take money out of your bank account. You therefore don't want to put it in an item that can be easily stolen. An implanted chip is very hard to steal.
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An implanted chip is very hard to steal.
An implanted chip is very easy to find with the appropriate equipment. As for getting your hand on it well it depends on how squeamish you are.
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Swipe a card? How quaint.
My card has PayPass -- I just wave my card in front of the reader to pay, and a signature isn't required.
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That means that you're already part of the problem then...
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My card has PayPass -- I just wave my card in front of the reader to pay, and a signature isn't required.
So what happens if your card is stolen? The thief gets to empty your account without any checks to prevent it?
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The transaction limits on unverified payments are pretty small (£15 here in the UK, recently raised from £10), and you'd expect any such system to be wary of lots and lots of them.
The lack of signature and PIN verification also means any liability for losses through such a system rests on the bank, not you, provided you report the loss of your card in good time. Same should apply if someone manages to exploit such a feature while you still have your card, provided you dispute the payments not t
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It's a credit card. I used to use debit for everything but switched to credit to provide a buffer between merchants and my real life cash. My parents had their debit card info skimmed by an organized group from Russia.
Two scenarios:
1. In which my debit card info is stolen:
"Hello bak, my debit card was stolen and thousands were removed from my account!"
"Well, if you can prove that it wasn't you who flew to all those cities, and if we can get ATM video of the transactions, then we can refund your money in 6-8
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No, they wouldn't, because DDT is largely ineffective against mosquitoes in many places. Sometimes it even exasperates problems with other pests. Other pesticides are more effective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Mosquito_resistance_to_DDT [wikipedia.org]
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movie rights! (Score:1)
Well, hey... (Score:4, Insightful)
Those tattoos and armbands were bloody handy.
OH NO, IT'S GODWINZILLA! AIEEE!
70 years ago... (Score:1, Insightful)
...much, much more than a mere 25% of Germans were quite eager to carry their era's form of identification and "go along with the crowd". /end-of-thread, Godwin invoked.
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What benefits? (Score:2)
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Since most people tend to behave like cattle, it all starts to make sense. As for the benefit, it may make identifying your burned and mutilated easier to identify after you are killed in a terrorist attack.
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As for the benefit, it may make identifying your burned and mutilated corpse easier after you are killed in a terrorist attack
(fixed that for you) A false-flag terrorist attack perpetrated by the same government that implanted your chip. In-fact after analyzing your movements they found a high probability that your position would be at the aforemention attack and concluded you are expendable and your death is acceptable collateral damage. Meanwhile, the other cattle like yourself believe this an authentic terrorist attack and therefore call for the government to enact more degrading laws in the name of "security". Furthering
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Life will be so much easier... Except when you break the law (everyone invariably does because there are so damn many).
People always talk about politicians 'making a lot of laws so that everyone becomes a criminal,' and that was Ayn Rand's theory, but in reality no dictator needs to go through all that trouble. After Hitler got elected, he killed his political opponents. No trial or anything, just assassinations. This isn't an exception with dictatorships, it's standard procedure. Monseigneur Romero in El Salvador was shot by a government agent in front of an entire congregation as he was delivering Mass. Everyone knew
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I guess my question is, in that scenario, what happens to the humans when the singularity hits and robot labor is cheaper than human labor?
Interesting thought. You would have to be extremely cold-blooded to want to kill everyone, and what is the point of having power if there is no one to have power over? If all you are really interested in is living a life of luxury, it would be easier to just be rich and not going through the effort of enslaving mankind (which is a lot of work). So, while whoever was in power might consider culling the herds, I am fairly certain a sizable portion would be kept around.
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There's not really much benefit. The major upside is that you can't ever forget your wallet, and it's going to be a bitch to steal your card. (If the guy in front of you is trying to pay with a stump, then it's probably stolen.)
However, electronic tracking of people does have its place. [projectlifesaver.org] (I wrote the code for those transmitters.) Some people will wander away and be unable to ask for help or even realize that they are dying of exposure.
Oh, WOULD be happy (Score:2)
Yeah, I kinda figured that was the case. But for a second there I was about to be very upset that Germans had become cyborgs before we even had the option.
But now that I think of it, if they already had chip implants but only 25% were happy about it that'd be kinda disturbing. I mean why'd they get them then? Overhyped marketing claims seems plausible. Another option would be government coercion. Which then raises the question: Why didn't they design the chips to alter the recipient's mind so that the
Could be worse (Score:1, Troll)
At least the Germans weren't stating an opinion on whether they should forcibly implant microchips into people of OTHER nationalities.
1 in 7 Also want the Berlin wall back (Score:5, Informative)
Heh (Score:3, Interesting)
That's mostly West Germans who don't want pay for rebuilding East Germany.
Cheap Germans? That's unpossible.
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So take anything the Germans want with a grain of salt
yeah no shit, me too! Several grains in fact - that is some of the blandest food in Europe, and that's saying a lot.
This is bullshit (Score:2)
I am having a hard time finding the original survey questions (probably for good reasons)
Even so, this smells like bullshit.
The only (apparent) quote I could find: "Jeder vierte Deutsche (23 Prozent) würde sogar einen Computerchip im Körper tragen, wenn es ihm bestimmte Vorteile verschafft"
~ "every fourth German would even carry an "Computerchip"(e.g. an integrated circuit/microprocessor) in their body if that would result in certain advantages"
Like anyone would refuse to wear a pacemaker with a i
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It really reveals the parts of the communities that apparently agree with this to likely be young people (discothe
Re:This is bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
Question: For which advantages would you carry a computer chip inside your body?
----
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In other words, 72% of the people asked refused to be chipped, no matter what benefit you would offer them.
It's all in the wording...
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Btw the slide does mention "under the skin".
Yep, the question is whether it's meant in the literal sense. The question doesn't imply this. As you wrote, a chip that regulates the heart beat adaptively is completely different from a rfid chip that can open some door.
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Someone hand that guy an insightful mod: This thread is worthless without the original question.
How about "do you think it would be a good idea to have a chip implanted, e.g. to pay in the supermarket or to open your home doors?"
If that's the wording, 25% sounds like an awfully LOW turnout. Appearantly 75% of the people are still smart enough to notice that being cattle-tagged is not something they'd want. And that means that even half the people with an IQ below 100 could identify it as a DUMB idea.
And 50% of Americans! (Score:3, Insightful)
I suspect even a greater percentage of Americans would agree to be chipped. Or have their children chipped to prevent their kidnapping by the ever present child molester.
Man, I have become really cynical.
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Better yet, how about a chip to constantly measure the levels of alcohol, THC, and narcotics [...]
If the chip could actually deliver the alcohol, THC, and narcotics to the bloodstream... it would really be a hit.
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Why do you think you'd get asked if your kids should be chipped? They're already collecting their blood for DNA samples without even telling you, what gives you the idea they'd ask you whether you want to have your kids chipped?
Why wouldn't you? It's for their safety! You do not want your kids to be safe? What kind of parent are you! You are unfit, so the CPA has to step in and declare it a good idea. Now shut up and you may be allowed to take your kids home with you.
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Or have their children chipped to prevent their kidnapping by the ever present child molester.
He must be one busy guy!
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Wow.
It took more than 10 threads to get to the "I have no proof but think the US would be worse"
thread.
People were showing some real restraint, today.
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I doubt it. Quite a lot of Americans have superstitious objections to this kind of thing. Mark of the beast and all that.
Come On Guys (Score:3, Funny)
Raise your standards Germany. Have some dignity!
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I got Sony-branded low-light vision upgrades.
It is AWESOME.
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I only trust products from the Umbrella Corporation
Good work guys... (Score:2)
What For? (Score:2)
I'm a little unclear on this concept. Why exactly would I want to have an ID chip implanted in my body for that I couldn't get from one that's in my pocket?
I suppose it would make it harder to steal, lose, or forget. But really? I haven't had any of those things happen to me in over 15 years.
And sometimes, I *want* to leave my ID at home.
According to MY survey ... (Score:2)
The other 50% is undecided.
The undecided responded to the question with a "Meow" before returning to her nap, but since it is neither yes or no was counted as "No Opinion".
See how much fun statistics can be! Learn to manipulate public opinion for fun and profit, ask me how!
I Would Be Happy to Have an ID Chip Implant (Score:2)
I Would Be Happy to Have an ID Chip Implant...
If I could reprogram it to identify me as anyone I wanted to and to not respond at all when I didn't want it to.
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Tracking i'm not so concerned about (I have little to hide). its the ease of disablement once they get a foothold, that I'd be more concerned about.
Free loaders (Score:2)
How much do you want to bet that this is the same percentage of
the population that's living on the governments dime?
One in Four? What would Dilbert say? (Score:2)
Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews (Score:2)
Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear. This seem like a high tech ver of that.
In Related News: One Quarter of Germans Stupid (Score:2)
Seriously, this number is likely not characteristic for the Germans, but more likely a characteristic of larger groups of randomly selected people. I seriously doubt that most of the agreeing people do even begin to understand the implications.
Can't.... help.... it..... (Score:2)
...but given the fortuitous context, I have to trigger Godwin's Law here.
If it means shorter lines at the supermarket, a quarter of Germans would be happy to have a chip implanted under their skin.
It would have meant shorter lines at Auschwitz, too.
Honestly, I'm not altogether opposed to implants, though I'm much more interested in stuff that's not yet possible, like having a fully-functional computing environment directly interfaced to my nervous system with all the usual transhumanist trimmings. But even there, before the first implant goes in, much less millions of them, we need a comprehensive legal framework to define how t
in other news (Score:2)
Sample size of four (Score:2)
How would it make lines shorter? (Score:2)
The amount of time I spend locking the time of the cashier (and therefore the line) is minimal. Simply, do the whole prepay procedure (swipe card, enter code) while the cashier is going through your goods. Once it is time to pay, all you have to do is press a single button.
The problem is not with current technology. It is with people who aren't using it efficiently, such as those who wait to swipe the card and input the code until after all the goods have been processed. Of course, if you can't do it like m
Too Soon? (Score:2)
I know it is highly offensive to some people.
One day I was commenting on technology, and this sort of thing, and at the same time the inability of me to remember my Social Insurance Number when ever I needed it. I also could not think a a cool significant thing to get a tattoo of that wasn't lame, that I would likely regret in later years.
Anyway musing aloud, I said, maybe I should just get my SIN tattooed on my arm, as it isn't ever going to change, and it would be useful, particularity as an identifying m
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Actually, this was conducted internally. And we'll find out who those 9 defectors were!
How often do I have to say it, secret ballots are a nuisan... wait, is that mike open?
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This exhibit is closed!
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You'd guess wrong. Texas is saturated in the "chip in the body is the Mark of the Beast" meme. They don't need to know any of the good reasons to refuse an implanted RFID chip - they have a perfectly serviceable bad reason.
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